Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 deadsquidwalking Apr 20, 2008 15:45:21	Ever since I've gotten into the World of Darkness gamelines, I've developed something of an obsession of using a point buy system for d20 Modern. Thus far, all of the d20 point based systems I've encountered have either been nothing more than different ways to build d20 Fantasy classes, insular in design, or mind-numbingly complex. But, after combing over several free point based systems, I think I may have come up with the foundations of a workable point based system usable for d20 Modern, and I've turned to you all to see how balanced this mess is. I'm well aware that this system could be broken beyond repair, and there's a LOT I still haven't covered (like how to do races other than human, races with level adjustments, spellcasting/psionics, etc.) so don't be afraid to be honest with me if that's the case. There are still the basic 20 class levels, but rather than get specific class features each level, characters instead receive 24 “Character Points” to build their character in any way the player wants! Also, instead of receiving a feat at levels 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18, characters receive +6 CP to spend on anything they wish. Characters under this system still benefit from the ability score bonus granted at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20. The basic expenditures of CP for character growth in this system are as follows: Base Attack Bonus: 6 CP for every +1. You Base Attack Bonus may not exceed your character level. Saving Throws: Each point of a bonus in a saving throw (Fort, Ref, Will) costs 3 CP. Hit Dice: All characters recieve 1d4 + their Constitution modifier in hit points each level free of cost. If you want to use a larger hit dice, you're going to have to fork over CP for it. (Note: For the time being, you hit dice may not exceed your character level): d4: 0 d6: 2 CP d8: 4 CP d10: 6 CP d12: 8 CP Feats and Special Abilities: Provided that the character has met the proper prerequisites, all feats cost 6 CP (Note: I’m converting class features and Talents into feats with the proper prerequisites to maintain game balance and give characters a wide selection of options). There are certain special abilities available to characters that cannot rightly be classified as feats, so they may cost more or less depending on the nature of the bonuses they offer (I'll list them later). Disadvantages: I MAY allow characters to take Disadvantages/Flaws in exchange for bonus CP based on the rating on the flaw. If I do include flaws, they are actually going to be a detriment to the character and not just a minor penalty that only rarely comes into play. Skills: Going to be honest here: I'm not entirely sure how to handle skills in the traditional manner, particulary in regards to class skills, cross class skills, the bonus skills offered from your ocupation, etc. As it stands, all characters recieve 2 + their Int modifier in skill points per level, and must spend CP to get larger amounts (as with Hit Dice). Characters still get x4 skill points at first level, and humans still get those bonus 4 skill points at 1st level and additional skill point at every level after. 2 + Intelligence Modifier: 0 4 + Intelligence Modifier: 2 6 + Intelligence Modifier: 4 8 + Intelligence Modifier: 6 And that's all I've been able to draw up for now. So, does this system have potential or should I just drop it and look elsewhere?
#2 brokenoakleys Apr 20, 2008 18:12:41	I am interested in where you are going with this, I was thinking last night that the d20 system is a bit restrictive in relegating people to classes. Couple of questions: Would it be simpler just giving everyone d6 hp (or d8) and letting them buy extra hp? Why not just an set number of HP per level (like 5), and if you want more you have to buy them? What happens if someone buys a d12 for HP and rolls a one? Are they SOL? Do you have to spend CP to get points for ability points or is that separate? Can you buy extra ability points? Instead of advancing by levels, why not just give points that people can use during down time or in-between adventures? You could give bonus points for taking up training or intelligent use of a skill/feat/ability they want to improve, or penalty points for trying to get a feat or skill that the character hasn't used or been exposed to.
#3 thinkhard Apr 20, 2008 19:16:50	looking good. Saves section looks like it needs some re-examination. There should be a cap of some kind. Also—the thing that keeps d20 relatively balanced is that some class abilities are much better than others and do NOT have prereqs, only that you be a member of that class, and are balanced by the fact that everything else is crappy in the class. Sorry to throw a wrench in the works, but i foresee problems.
#4 j0lt Apr 21, 2008 7:20:30	Looks a little bit similar to the d20 BESM point buy system, which I really liked. Keep it coming!
#5 deadsquidwalking Apr 21, 2008 20:19:09	Looks a little bit similar to the d20 BESM point buy system, which I really liked. Keep it coming! As you wish :D Would it be simpler just giving everyone d6 hp (or d8) and letting them buy extra hp? Why not just an set number of HP per level (like 5), and if you want more you have to buy them? I've considered those options and intend to test them out sometime this weekend. What happens if someone buys a d12 for HP and rolls a one? Are they SOL? I would personally let them reroll it, because it would just be plain sadistic to force them to take the single hit point after investing that much CP in their Hit Dice. Do you have to spend CP to get points for ability points or is that separate? Can you buy extra ability points? I'm considering having ability points as a separate factor outside of Character Points. Instead of advancing by levels, why not just give points that people can use during down time or in-between adventures? I know it's not as freeform as a truly classless system, but using class levels makes it a hell of a lot easier for me as it provides a stable point of reference and limits to just how powerful the character is. I may test out a classless variant sometime in the future to see how well it would work out. You could give bonus points for taking up training or intelligent use of a skill/feat/ability they want to improve, or penalty points for trying to get a feat or skill that the character hasn't used or been exposed to. I think I may provide extra CP as a reward for good RPing, creative character design, and intelligent playing though the bonuses are going to be few and far between so things don’t get too unbalanced. Saves section looks like it needs some re-examination. There should be a cap of some kind. I intended to write in that I do intend to put a cap on how high saves can be once I worked it all out (proven a mite more challenging than I thought it would be) in my original post; sorry bout that :embarrass Also—the thing that keeps d20 relatively balanced is that some class abilities are much better than others and do NOT have prereqs, only that you be a member of that class, and are balanced by the fact that everything else is crappy in the class. Sorry to throw a wrench in the works, but i foresee problems. No worries. Constructive criticism is the whole reason I posted my system up here after all ^^ That being said, I may have to limit what kind of class abilities I convert to feats least I upset the game balance. Just in case, I’m going to up the cost in CP for converted class abilities, so that when players do take them, it’s going to be a bit of a sacrifice on their part. Thanks for all your feedback everyone, I really appreciate it ^^ I’m feeling kind of ill at the moment, so that’s all I got for tonight. I’ll try to get my stuff on skills tomorrow. I’m thinking about using the streamlined 4e skills I’ve seen in Star Wars SAGA edition (I’m thinking of allowing characters to spend 1 to 3 CP to gain access to the “trained only” options of the skills).
#6 TheRealOrion Apr 22, 2008 14:45:01	This looks really fun. A couple of things to think about: You'll have to price the class features not just by themselves, but also in terms of their potential combinations. Some class abilities are particularly powerful if combined with other abilities, but relatively tame if their part of their class. Also, the talents do not seem like they're of equal value to me, and I think that's because their power level is either high or low in comparison to the power level of the class. I tried to stat out talents once and found that they would be extremely finicky, so I gave up. If/when you get this all hammered out, how would you feel about me building a slightly adjusted version of it into Phoenix? I think I'd have to adjust the CP costs, but I love the general idea.
#7 thinkhard Apr 26, 2008 20:09:32	another thing to consider: don't worry if your point-based characters end up more powerful or even LESS powerful than their classic d20 counterparts. All that matters is they work well together. I'm assuming that all characters would be on a point system and so would their enemies (possibly).
#8 deadsquidwalking Apr 27, 2008 20:35:55	Thanks for the show of support guys ^^ I'm assuming that all characters would be on a point system and so would their enemies (possibly). Yes indeed! I'm considering having all the PCs and NPCs classified into these categories: Names: Names are PC characters, important NPCs, and major antagonists. Mooks: Minor NPCs, side-kicks, thugs, extras, and lesser antagonists. They only recieve 12 character points per level and are worth much less XP than a Name (in other words, this is my version of Ordinaries). Also, the talents do not seem like they're of equal value to me, and I think that's because their power level is either high or low in comparison to the power level of the class. I tried to stat out talents once and found that they would be extremely finicky, so I gave up. I noticed that myself. I may have Talents at a lower CP cost than feats if I can ever get around to em. If/when you get this all hammered out, how would you feel about me building a slightly adjusted version of it into Phoenix? I think I'd have to adjust the CP costs, but I love the general idea. I'm going to be honest with you: I'm not really all that good of a writer (I can barely call myself an amature), but if I can make the time, I'd be happy to adapt my system to Phoenix. Alright, after a day of comparing notes, writing, and a ton of copying/pasting, I've finally managed to churn out the skill list I'm going to use for my system. It could use a little fine tuning, and I still have to fill some parts on some of them, but overall, I'm sastified that I've managed to compress the 67 some odd skills of d20 Modern into half that number. Under some skills are entries that are labled as "Trained Only;" what this means is that specific aspect of the skill is advanced and reuqires special training to use (in mechanical terms, you spend 3 CP to use the "Trained Only" sections of the skill). I also condensed some of the Knowledge skills into bundles and mixed a few with Craft skills; I wanted knowledge skills to play a big part in my games and that seemed like the best way to go about it. Does this seem like a good idea? Because I'm not netsavy enough to post all the skills up on the forums in a coherent format, I posted the original document on a free file hosting site. If it doesn't work right, please tell me and forgive me; I'm barely computer literate :embarrass