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Postcognition problem

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Ragitsu
May 05, 2009 0:53:41 A PC in a game i'm running wants to buy the Postcognition Power next session. My question to you is not one of mechanics, but of story: if I want to go along with them attaining said Power, how do I regulate it so that it's useful, but not game-breaking?

Yeah yeah...I know this isn't strictly d20 Modern, but there are some good fantasy/sci-fi experts on here that have a decent amount of GM experience and I trust the community on the whole, so I decided to ask here :P.
#2
backstabbist
May 05, 2009 7:17:04 I am assuming you are talking about the classic 'psychic' flashback,
which fotunately has GM handwave written all over it.

As long as you dont make it a mechanical exact science ~lucid dream~ activity,
what they see is completely up to you.... or even if the see anything at all.

Keep the visions as 'attempt's.... they should 'Try to pick up something' rather than expect
flawless operating RetroVisionPowers.

If they get the slug out of a dead guy,
you dont let them have the name address and social of the killer for DC20 25 30,
you give them worthless generic "you smell apples", red chevy van broken headlight, agueing with the grocery delivery guy

you should also consider fluff text to say all living things have aura, and some can mask their aura making it harder to have visions.... this can help you kill abuse of the power at the concept level- you TRY to have visions and hope the visions make sense and some folks(bbeg) are harder to get visions on than dweeb store clerks
#3
TheRealOrion
May 05, 2009 11:16:44 That's all really good advice. Give subjective sensory details--sounds, smells, sights--and not hard information. Also, allow some kind of roll for success/failure and make sure the DCs are actually challenging. If it's a perfunctory roll (like Concentration on spell-casting), you'll live to regret it. But as Backstabbist says, even when the PC succeeds, it's practically carte blanche to plant any old information you like. You should give them something useful every time they succeed (hence making the DCs challening is so important), but it doesn't have to be supremely clear every time.

Hope that helps! Let us know how it goes, eh?
#4
backstabbist
May 05, 2009 11:31:00 yes, each success should yield something
... but low rolls get stuff like "Apples" and high rolls can give less vague clues.
... and not all objects/locales have the same DC for base success

Just remember that they are clues, not answers.
You can give detailed info if it stuff they already knew- You can show an argument betwen Dan & MrBody if the PCs already know Dan works with MrBody and you also give clues that point at Sally owing MrBody money

.... seeds of doubt and misunderstanding the clues that otherwise are specific.
Forensics can tell them the black eye on MrBody was hours before he died, meaning Dan did punch him, but maight not be the one that killed him hours later

You are gonna have to get in a pink snuggie, sit down with a tub of chocolate icecream,
turn on Lifetime and Oxygen and expose your retinas to some psychic shows to get the feel for dropping hints via visions ;)
#5
TheRealOrion
May 05, 2009 12:13:35 A couple of season of Angel would do far less damage to your brain, and they have "visions" all th etime.
#6
backstabbist
May 05, 2009 12:33:09 but but but.... I already put IceCream on the shopping list
see... right there between Tortillas and Dishsoap... and I'm going to walmart later this afternoon
what am I gonna do now with a DVR full of Medium, GhostWhiperer & Crossing Over
.... I mean... What will I tell 'my friend' with a DVR full of Medium, GhostWhiperer & Crossing Over
#7
Ragitsu
May 05, 2009 13:36:27 My apologies. I should have been clear from the start (I assume a lot of people savvy with fictional abilities in both fantasy and science fiction use these boards :embarrass). Anyways, the system is Mutants and Masterminds and he wants to buy the standard version of Postcognition.

Super-Senses

Postcognition (4 ranks): Your senses extend into the past, allowing you to perceive events that took place previously.
You can make Notice and Search checks to pick up on past information in an area or from a subject. The Gamemaster sets the DC for these checks based on how obscure and distant in the past the information is, from DC 15 (for a vague vision that may or may not be accurate) to DC 30 (for near complete knowledge of a particular past event as if you were actually present). Your normal (present-day) senses don’t work while you’re using Postcognition; your awareness is focused on the past. Your postcogntive visions last for as long as you concentrate. Postcognition does not apply to mental effects like Mind Reading or any other ability requiring interaction with the past.
Postcognition may be Limited to past events connected to your own “past lives” or ancestors, reducing cost to 2 ranks.

To clear things up: he isn't a superhero, but a normal guy that is granted the Power. Also, you don't need to be at a location/or touch a person/object to use Postcognition, but it is a viable Flaw to reduce the cost.

Basically, the base Power is pretty open ended (which is fine), but I just don't know how to adjudicate it so it's not a total game breaker.

---

A good example of powers like these in which the user has more control than "normal" is the series Dead Zone.
#8
backstabbist
May 05, 2009 13:50:50
but I just don't know how to adjudicate it so it's not a total game breaker.

well, thats nothing to be ashamed of,
since that power would indeed be a total game breaker

Obviously, we will be seeing TeamEvil with its own PostCogs,
and some of their visions will be watching the hero drive home after killing one of the TeamEvil mooks last week
.... put out the good china cause you're gonna have company tonight

dont worry, TeamEvil got to be a intercontinental confederation by taking it easy on guys that hurt them... they will probably just send 1 or 2 easily defeated mooks rather than make an extreme overthetop reaction to guys killing their men as a lesson to others
#9
TheRealOrion
May 05, 2009 15:08:04 Off the bat, I'd say those DCs are a bit low for a "super" game, but if you're doing a normal game then here's what I'd say. Talk to the player. Tell him or her that you're very nervous about this power being game-breaking, destroying the fun for everyone by revealing information that is central to the mystery. Tell her or him that you're going to keep the details vague and/or use the power as an opportunity to provide information when it's necessary. Basically, you'll adjudicate the power as you see fit for the purposes of telling the story. If that player complains that doing so would make the power worthless, then that's his/her call, but I'd say what you tell him/her is this: taking that power grants the GM a great way to make the game more fun, and that should be the goal. "Winning" is merely one of the ways you can have fun. "Being faced with a challenging mystery" is another one.

If you're looking for hard-and-fast rules for a power like that, then I cannot help you. It's vague as all hell.
#10
Ragitsu
May 05, 2009 15:21:42 And yet the player can still initiate the visions of their own accord?
#11
TheRealOrion
May 05, 2009 17:27:20 No, they just have the ability to make "Notice" (Spot/Listen, I assume) and Search checks in an area. Basically, they're rolling Search checks that extend into the past. That's actually not as bad as I thought. It's limited by geography and it requires that you pump some resources into two different skills. As a GM, I'd just be prepared to make stuff up on the fly about a spot, because after a while, "you don't find anything" can be very discouraging. Even if it's useless information, providing some kind of little anecdote can be entertaining. After a while, your player might start looking around just to see what stuff you might make up (which to me, would be great fun). The other thing to do, though, is design games with this power in mind. You don't have to leave actual objects in a place and wait for players to find them (the infamous "Hey, look. A letter that basically explains their whole plan. Lucky!"). You can wait for them to search a spot and then possibly relate a whole "cut scene" of information. The more I think about this, the more it looks like a really wonderful GMing opportunity.
#12
Ragitsu
May 06, 2009 4:17:24 That seems to be a sensible take on the Power. I'll have to implement it next session .

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Ragitsu May 05, 2009 0:53:41	A PC in a game i'm running wants to buy the Postcognition Power next session. My question to you is not one of mechanics, but of story: if I want to go along with them attaining said Power, how do I regulate it so that it's useful, but not game-breaking? Yeah yeah...I know this isn't strictly d20 Modern, but there are some good fantasy/sci-fi experts on here that have a decent amount of GM experience and I trust the community on the whole, so I decided to ask here :P.
#2 backstabbist May 05, 2009 7:17:04	I am assuming you are talking about the classic 'psychic' flashback, which fotunately has GM handwave written all over it. As long as you dont make it a mechanical exact science ~lucid dream~ activity, what they see is completely up to you.... or even if the see anything at all. Keep the visions as 'attempt's.... they should 'Try to pick up something' rather than expect flawless operating RetroVisionPowers. If they get the slug out of a dead guy, you dont let them have the name address and social of the killer for DC20 25 30, you give them worthless generic "you smell apples", red chevy van broken headlight, agueing with the grocery delivery guy you should also consider fluff text to say all living things have aura, and some can mask their aura making it harder to have visions.... this can help you kill abuse of the power at the concept level- you TRY to have visions and hope the visions make sense and some folks(bbeg) are harder to get visions on than dweeb store clerks
#3 TheRealOrion May 05, 2009 11:16:44	That's all really good advice. Give subjective sensory details--sounds, smells, sights--and not hard information. Also, allow some kind of roll for success/failure and make sure the DCs are actually challenging. If it's a perfunctory roll (like Concentration on spell-casting), you'll live to regret it. But as Backstabbist says, even when the PC succeeds, it's practically carte blanche to plant any old information you like. You should give them something useful every time they succeed (hence making the DCs challening is so important), but it doesn't have to be supremely clear every time. Hope that helps! Let us know how it goes, eh?
#4 backstabbist May 05, 2009 11:31:00	yes, each success should yield something ... but low rolls get stuff like "Apples" and high rolls can give less vague clues. ... and not all objects/locales have the same DC for base success Just remember that they are clues, not answers. You can give detailed info if it stuff they already knew- You can show an argument betwen Dan & MrBody if the PCs already know Dan works with MrBody and you also give clues that point at Sally owing MrBody money .... seeds of doubt and misunderstanding the clues that otherwise are specific. Forensics can tell them the black eye on MrBody was hours before he died, meaning Dan did punch him, but maight not be the one that killed him hours later You are gonna have to get in a pink snuggie, sit down with a tub of chocolate icecream, turn on Lifetime and Oxygen and expose your retinas to some psychic shows to get the feel for dropping hints via visions ;)
#5 TheRealOrion May 05, 2009 12:13:35	A couple of season of Angel would do far less damage to your brain, and they have "visions" all th etime.
#6 backstabbist May 05, 2009 12:33:09	but but but.... I already put IceCream on the shopping list see... right there between Tortillas and Dishsoap... and I'm going to walmart later this afternoon what am I gonna do now with a DVR full of Medium, GhostWhiperer & Crossing Over .... I mean... What will I tell 'my friend' with a DVR full of Medium, GhostWhiperer & Crossing Over
#7 Ragitsu May 05, 2009 13:36:27	My apologies. I should have been clear from the start (I assume a lot of people savvy with fictional abilities in both fantasy and science fiction use these boards :embarrass). Anyways, the system is Mutants and Masterminds and he wants to buy the standard version of Postcognition. Super-Senses Postcognition (4 ranks): Your senses extend into the past, allowing you to perceive events that took place previously. You can make Notice and Search checks to pick up on past information in an area or from a subject. The Gamemaster sets the DC for these checks based on how obscure and distant in the past the information is, from DC 15 (for a vague vision that may or may not be accurate) to DC 30 (for near complete knowledge of a particular past event as if you were actually present). Your normal (present-day) senses don’t work while you’re using Postcognition; your awareness is focused on the past. Your postcogntive visions last for as long as you concentrate. Postcognition does not apply to mental effects like Mind Reading or any other ability requiring interaction with the past. Postcognition may be Limited to past events connected to your own “past lives” or ancestors, reducing cost to 2 ranks. To clear things up: he isn't a superhero, but a normal guy that is granted the Power. Also, you don't need to be at a location/or touch a person/object to use Postcognition, but it is a viable Flaw to reduce the cost. Basically, the base Power is pretty open ended (which is fine), but I just don't know how to adjudicate it so it's not a total game breaker. --- A good example of powers like these in which the user has more control than "normal" is the series Dead Zone.
#8 backstabbist May 05, 2009 13:50:50	but I just don't know how to adjudicate it so it's not a total game breaker. well, thats nothing to be ashamed of, since that power would indeed be a total game breaker Obviously, we will be seeing TeamEvil with its own PostCogs, and some of their visions will be watching the hero drive home after killing one of the TeamEvil mooks last week .... put out the good china cause you're gonna have company tonight dont worry, TeamEvil got to be a intercontinental confederation by taking it easy on guys that hurt them... they will probably just send 1 or 2 easily defeated mooks rather than make an extreme overthetop reaction to guys killing their men as a lesson to others
#9 TheRealOrion May 05, 2009 15:08:04	Off the bat, I'd say those DCs are a bit low for a "super" game, but if you're doing a normal game then here's what I'd say. Talk to the player. Tell him or her that you're very nervous about this power being game-breaking, destroying the fun for everyone by revealing information that is central to the mystery. Tell her or him that you're going to keep the details vague and/or use the power as an opportunity to provide information when it's necessary. Basically, you'll adjudicate the power as you see fit for the purposes of telling the story. If that player complains that doing so would make the power worthless, then that's his/her call, but I'd say what you tell him/her is this: taking that power grants the GM a great way to make the game more fun, and that should be the goal. "Winning" is merely one of the ways you can have fun. "Being faced with a challenging mystery" is another one. If you're looking for hard-and-fast rules for a power like that, then I cannot help you. It's vague as all hell.
#10 Ragitsu May 05, 2009 15:21:42	And yet the player can still initiate the visions of their own accord?
#11 TheRealOrion May 05, 2009 17:27:20	No, they just have the ability to make "Notice" (Spot/Listen, I assume) and Search checks in an area. Basically, they're rolling Search checks that extend into the past. That's actually not as bad as I thought. It's limited by geography and it requires that you pump some resources into two different skills. As a GM, I'd just be prepared to make stuff up on the fly about a spot, because after a while, "you don't find anything" can be very discouraging. Even if it's useless information, providing some kind of little anecdote can be entertaining. After a while, your player might start looking around just to see what stuff you might make up (which to me, would be great fun). The other thing to do, though, is design games with this power in mind. You don't have to leave actual objects in a place and wait for players to find them (the infamous "Hey, look. A letter that basically explains their whole plan. Lucky!"). You can wait for them to search a spot and then possibly relate a whole "cut scene" of information. The more I think about this, the more it looks like a really wonderful GMing opportunity.
#12 Ragitsu May 06, 2009 4:17:24	That seems to be a sensible take on the Power. I'll have to implement it next session .