so here's the question if the hostage is shot, say with a modern high velociety round (capable of punching through a brick wall) but it doesn't do enough damage to kill the hostage does anyone think the round should still pass through the hostage and strike the badguy.
personally my thoughts are that the round should be able to pass through the hostage (say the hostage was struck in the shoulder, doesn't kill the hostage but the round could still pass through) but I can't seam to find any rules in the core rule book other than stateing that the hostage takes the damage. so my question is what should the hardness/HP be for a human body to allow penetration after all just useing the target's hit points wouldn't work if someone took cover behind a dead body.
waiting for you to answer this!
:D
well after watching a film the other day a friend and I got into a discussion about badguys using an innocent bystander as a human shield and it got me thinking about that line in the film speed "shoot the hostage"
so here's the question if the hostage is shot, say with a modern high velocity round (capable of punching through a brick wall) but it doesn't do enough damage to kill the hostage does anyone think the round should still pass through the hostage and strike the badguy.
Nearly all rifle calibers will go right through one person, whether it mortally wounded the person or not. You certainly could hit the bad guy behind the hostage.
Since Modern models damage based on wounding and drama, not kinetic energy, I think you could reasonably roll normal damage -1 or -2 for the next person in line.
In fact, if you want that level of detail, some rifle bullets don't really get started tumbling and/or fragmenting until they pass through one person. That is more detail than Modern seems built for though.
You might want to go with a the -1 or -2 to damage that ed_209a mentioned... or you could tack on an extra die out of dramatic spite. :evillaugh
but it tuns out it was just someone needing terminal perfomance KE information online.
CyberDave did a very indepth analysis of OverPenetration,
and drafted a pretty good ruleset for it. While his overpenetration rules are optimized for the CyberDave Realism Ruleset (awesome stuff btw), it can be readily adapted to a more RAW gameverse.
Without stealing from Dave's thunder, we could make a more Game Balance optimized rule for overpenetration, but have to acknowlege that it is just that: It is an Artificial Game Balance rule for ease of play rather than the most accurate modelling of physics.
As such-
To be fair to the game, we would have to let Heros be better shields. Mainly because without that, we would see no problem ignoring the threat of the villian and just perferating the shield with 9mm AP knowing our 87HP buddy wont MAS from it.
We could say every bullet has the energy to do full damage, but inflicting only 8damage from a 2d6 9mm equates to not hitting a location that absorbs the full damage... Center Mass & Skull put up more resistance to penetration than a 3point arm ding. Then the slug maintains the REST of the potential damage to cary on to the next object struck.
This model has the problem that d20 Modern RAW appears to already have Overpenetration worked into the base damage of guns- very evident in highpower guns not doing enough damage for their potential (50BMG, Im looking at you). Also displayed in RAW not starting with Armor As DR, but using that as an afterthought, which is pretty much what we are talking about- the Villian is using MeatShield(armor).
What effect does a TowerShield grant guys?
Cover if we say it is indeed Impenatrable. But in the realm of terminal ballistics, nothing is Impenetrable, it is bullet resistant depending on the size & power of the bullet (16"Iowa, I'm looking at you). The towershield is only cover if you are shooting guns that cant penetrate it, and that is just the bottom 1/4 of guns on the powerscale. Even if we make the towershield out of a giant slab of NIJ Level-III Kevlar, 30-06AP will still punch it & hurt ya. That is just a Garand, or a Rem700, or lower end 2d10 gun, the Magnum Rifles like 338/350/375 are not insane portocannons but laugh at Level-III. Then the real portocannons like Barret/LAR 50's get a nod as almost ignoring level-III.
So the TowerShield, upgraded to level-III ballistic, is still just a wet towel against the upper 1/4th of gun power. We cant say the 50BMG loses energy proportional to the Level-3 resistance, because losing 20 of its 24 potential would leave just 4point potential... when it in reality would only spend 10-20% of its potential to punch level-III.
This is where RAW is kicking our behind.
The high power overpenetrators have already had their potential damage reduced to be applied to a medium creature. That is the only way to interpret the 50BMG doing only 24 . Put in scale, a Pistol might do 300-500 ftlb energy, a rifle 1000-4000, 60NitroExpress 6000, then the 50BMG at 12000:
2d6 pistol 500, 2d12 BMG 12000. Almost fits 6:12... except an etire order of magnitude low
What does this mean?
We cant simply use the MeatShield to reduce the potential damage of a shot by the damage they took from it, because we want the 50BMG to be harder to shoot thru a 87HP Hero than a mook. We also dont have decent figures on total potential damage for the overpenetrators, if the 87HP Hero takes max (RAW) damage from a 50BMG, it should still exit with gobs of killing power.
But to keep it simple
Assume a human body as MeatShield has DR6 to reduce potential damage on secondary & tertiary targets. Use this in conjuction with the Cover% for shooting at the Villian: If the shot beats Cover% then the bullet didnt hit the meatshield, if the shot hit the cover, then damage the meatshield by full potential and then damage the villian by initial Potential Damage -6DR for punching the cover(meatshield)
Any ideas?
I felt a great distubance in the force-
but it tuns out it was just someone needing terminal perfomance KE information online.
CyberDave did a very indepth analysis of OverPenetration,
and drafted a pretty good ruleset for it. While his overpenetration rules are optimized for the CyberDave Realism Ruleset (awesome stuff btw), it can be readily adapted to a more RAW gameverse.
Without stealing from Dave's thunder, we could make a more Game Balance optimized rule for overpenetration, but have to acknowlege that it is just that: It is an Artificial Game Balance rule for ease of play rather than the most accurate modelling of physics.
As such-
To be fair to the game, we would have to let Heros be better shields. Mainly because without that, we would see no problem ignoring the threat of the villian and just perferating the shield with 9mm AP knowing our 87HP buddy wont MAS from it.
We could say every bullet has the energy to do full damage, but inflicting only 8damage from a 2d6 9mm equates to not hitting a location that absorbs the full damage... Center Mass & Skull put up more resistance to penetration than a 3point arm ding. Then the slug maintains the REST of the potential damage to cary on to the next object struck.
This model has the problem that d20 Modern RAW appears to already have Overpenetration worked into the base damage of guns- very evident in highpower guns not doing enough damage for their potential (50BMG, Im looking at you). Also displayed in RAW not starting with Armor As DR, but using that as an afterthought, which is pretty much what we are talking about- the Villian is using MeatShield(armor).
What effect does a TowerShield grant guys?
Cover if we say it is indeed Impenatrable. But in the realm of terminal ballistics, nothing is Impenetrable, it is bullet resistant depending on the size & power of the bullet (16"Iowa, I'm looking at you). The towershield is only cover if you are shooting guns that cant penetrate it, and that is just the bottom 1/4 of guns on the powerscale. Even if we make the towershield out of a giant slab of NIJ Level-III Kevlar, 30-06AP will still punch it & hurt ya. That is just a Garand, or a Rem700, or lower end 2d10 gun, the Magnum Rifles like 338/350/375 are not insane portocannons but laugh at Level-III. Then the real portocannons like Barret/LAR 50's get a nod as almost ignoring level-III.
So the TowerShield, upgraded to level-III ballistic, is still just a wet towel against the upper 1/4th of gun power. We cant say the 50BMG loses energy proportional to the Level-3 resistance, because losing 20 of its 24 potential would leave just 4point potential... when it in reality would only spend 10-20% of its potential to punch level-III.
This is where RAW is kicking our behind.
The high power overpenetrators have already had their potential damage reduced to be applied to a medium creature. That is the only way to interpret the 50BMG doing only 24 . Put in scale, a Pistol might do 300-500 ftlb energy, a rifle 1000-4000, 60NitroExpress 6000, then the 50BMG at 12000:
2d6 pistol 500, 2d12 BMG 12000. Almost fits 6:12... except an etire order of magnitude low
What does this mean?
We cant simply use the MeatShield to reduce the potential damage of a shot by the damage they took from it, because we want the 50BMG to be harder to shoot thru a 87HP Hero than a mook. We also dont have decent figures on total potential damage for the overpenetrators, if the 87HP Hero takes max (RAW) damage from a 50BMG, it should still exit with gobs of killing power.
But to keep it simple
Assume a human body as MeatShield has DR6 to reduce potential damage on secondary & tertiary targets. Use this in conjuction with the Cover% for shooting at the Villian: If the shot beats Cover% then the bullet didnt hit the meatshield, if the shot hit the cover, then damage the meatshield by full potential and then damage the villian by initial Potential Damage -6DR for punching the cover(meatshield)
Dude... you are the greatest!!!
:D
You make me laugh so much, yet you are full of information... a virtual encyclopedia of gun knowledge!
Dude... you are the greatest!!!
:D
You make me laugh so much, yet you are full of information... a virtual encyclopedia of gun knowledge!
x2
This is where RAW is kicking our behind.
The high power overpenetrators have already had their potential damage reduced to be applied to a medium creature. That is the only way to interpret the 50BMG doing only 24 . Put in scale, a Pistol might do 300-500 ftlb energy, a rifle 1000-4000, 60NitroExpress 6000, then the 50BMG at 12000:
2d6 pistol 500, 2d12 BMG 12000. Almost fits 6:12... except an etire order of magnitude low
see that's part of my problem.
the way I figure it is the big guns do so little actually damage becuse they pass straight through the target without transfuring much of their potential energy. for example load a high power sniper rifle with a THV (Tres Haute Vitesse or very high velociety for those who don't speak french) and shoot a sheet of glass. chances are the round will pass through leaving a nice small circular hole (or a small ish hole) then take the same rifle and load it with a wat cutter or JHP (jacketed hollow point) and fire it at a sheet of glass. chances are the hole will be bigger and shatter (more energy transfured due to the increased slowing down on impact)
becuse if you take x damage from a weapon after it has hit the hostage then the rifles would be just as weak as the hand guns when a modern high powered rifle has the potential in real life to pass through a brick wall and wound the person on the otherside but in the game it's not as penetrative.
maybe we need some sort of "penatration rating" for each weapon bassed on it's ballistics. for example a small calibre rifle would have better penetration than a high calabre SMG which would have better penetration than a shotgun loaded with buck shot.
though then you'd probably have to rework the armour rules so high penetration rounds would pass through weaker armours (for example a 3006 rifle would stand a better chance of penetrating NIJ III kevlar but a 7.62mm rifle would not penetrate as well)
if I remember alternity had something like diffrent armours providing so much protection against diffrent types of damage(been a while since I played it) e.g a flack jacket 1d6vs low impact (knives ect) 1d4 vs high impact (guns, explosions) 1d4 vs energy (laser, fire) depending on the particular armour type (thickness and material) so the weapon would have to over come x ammount of protection before wounding the wearer but like what has already been stated removing x ammount of damage won't really work becuse of the way damage is worked in the game. unless we make high powered rifles more damaging, and just going with the simple -1 damage for passing through the target would basically result in a rifle having the potential to wound something like 15 people (doesn't really work) or the average handgun passing through 10 people (darn that's a good gun lol)
or maybe we could do something like giving a simple chance for penetration such as rolling a 1-2 on a d10 for a hand gun or a 6-7 for a sniper rifle to see if the round penetrates but that still leaves problems such as how much damage potential would remain in the round after penetration, as a high calabre hand gun round would be slowed more on impact with the taregt than a small calabre rifle round (basic physics due to velocety and surface area bla bla bla)
after thinking about this all day I think the best thing I can come up with is to roll a seccond attack roll and damage when the round hits the hostage but making the badguy flatfooted (he's holding the hostage after all) so basically all you would have to do is over come the bad guy's armour and do some damage.
but that leaves us in a simalar boat with the -1 to damage rules, and what is stopping someone just re rolling an attack on every sequential person until they score a miss. so maybe we need a chance to penetrate. maybe a DC bassed on the target's AC. such as an unarmoured woman being held by the bad guy having a DC of 10 while the bad guy in body armour holding her would have something like a DC of 14 (depending on armour type)
throwing in some sort of "penetration rating" such as a -3 for a shotgun loaded with buckshot. a 0 for a 9mm handgun and +5 for a .50 cal sniper rifle I guess you could make it so you could pass through multiple targets easier with a high powered rifle than with a low powered handgun. and maybe a cumilative +3 to the DC roll for each subsiquent target.
(useing the above example the hostage would be a DC10 chance of penetrating. the hostagetaker behind her would have a DC17 (14 for the armour+3 for already passing through the woman). I was going to go for a +1 but that would mean that the hand gun could still potentially pass through 10 people, with a +2 it could at most pass through 6 but a +3 it could pass through 4 at the most (if you ignore 20 as an automatic pass against the 5th guy)
*sigh* ok I think this needs a bit of work. maybe a bit more of a penilty for handgun penetration. the problem is low calabre weapons have better penetration but lower power but I guess that's probably more of a concern when you reach rifle calibres rather than handguns (a .22 pistol isn't going to pass though mr quarterback while a .50AE desert eagel may have a chance)
gods this is headwork lol
so far my down and dirty rules (after all of ten minuets working on them) is basically something like this
penetration rating (needs a bit of work)
hand guns -5 to -1 depending on the power of the weapon
shotgun (no penetration unless useing solid slugs) -3
SMG -3 to +1 depending on power and calabre
rifles -1 to +5 (depending on power and calabre)
machine gun +2 to +3
cross bow 0 (see below)
compound bow -1 (see below)
now you could change those bonuses and penilties depending on wheather the player is firing armour pericing or hollow tip rounds.
and if you're questioning the compound bow then I'll give you a little example of an archer during the middle ages (can't remember his name or the battle I'll have to look that up) using a long bow with a 50lb pull he struck a mounted knight on horse back over a few hundred yards away. the arrow punched through the cuisse (thigh plate) through the leather tunic underneath, through the leg (breaking the bone) out the other side, back through the leather tunic, through the seat of the saddle (that big lump of padded leather) and deap enough into the horse to kill it instantly. which is actually more penetrive than modern rifles, but given the fact the shaft produces drag the arrow would only strike the first two people since it would ge stuck in them and basically pin them togeather so they will have a good chance of penetrating but only if the targets are pressed against each other limiting it to 2 or 3 at the most as most arrows are about 26-30 inches cross bow bolts are about 1/2 that so limiting it to 2 max)
so basically something like a colt 1911 fired at a hostage being held by a terrorist wearing a conceilable vest would go something like this..
hit the hostage and roll damage as normal (lets have an aww for the poor old lady) next roll for penetration 12 on a D20 (10 for the woman and a -2 penelty for the colt)
assuming that the roll was a success roll an attack on the terrorist (flat footed) AC14 (to penetrate the armour) and roll damage as normal. now assuming you want to see if the round passes through him roll a 19 (14 since you're punching through the body and the armour, -2 penelty for the weapon being used and -3 penelty since you already passed through one person) if you succede then you can roll an attack on who ever happen's to be right behind him.
now if you want to go for a further penetration you have two options. 1 you can use the above rules (AC of target, + penilty from weapon and passing through person i.e roll an 18 for an AC10 target) or you could choose that the next target can't have a lower penetration roll than the previous one (so roll another 19 even if the guy only is an AC10).
now what this means is that a hand gun can pass through 1 maybe 2 people while a round fired from a barnett light fifty (+5 penetration) could punch through both the hostage and the terrorist and still have enough velocity to hit several more people (I coun't 3-4 people useing the example above assuming everyone behind the terrorist is also terrorists wearing armour)
I know it would slow down a game a lot with all the rolling of attacks and penetration ect. but how often do you need to know if a round passed through someone. the way I see it is you only need it for situations where the bad guy uses a human body shield or there is something like oxy acetaline tanks behind the target. which is very rare unless you're playing a game where the player's are constantly battling terrorists or the bad guys insist on grabbing some innocent bystander while you have a firefight in the middle of a shopping centre, or you happen to be battling people in munition factories or labs with huge vats of chemicals in every game.
but anyway that's my quick and dirty rules that I practically got from reading the responses so far so what's everyone's thoughts on what I've come up with so far (yeah i know it's a bit rough but hey it's a first draft and most of it I came up with while typing lol)
and sorry this is a bit long winded
Before we get into Hit/Miss situations, perhaps each weapon should have its Potential damage listed next to its Vs Human damage. That full amount of power could then be used up per body it hits by just subtracting either the damage done to that body, or some base 'human body' number like 6 or 8. All we ned to do is just drop the Medium Damage a die size for each body hit for lower velocity KE and away we go.
A 338mag with 2d10 damage would get ...lets say 30 Potential, the hostage takes 2d10 ( lets say 15), that is subtracted from the Potential and the Villian takes 2d8 capped at 15(what's left in Potential). A 50BMG might have 50Potential with 2d12 Medium, so it could go thru a few hostages infront of the villian before doing just 2d6 capped at 9 or something.
But it would be a nightmare to try to get the yarn out to CSI where all the misses go, and then roll AreaAttack 1Bullet/sq RefDC for any fools in squares the yarn touches.... out 7 or 8 RI's
But it would be a nightmare to try to get the yarn out to SCI where all the misses go, and then roll AreaAttack 1Bullet/sq RefDC for any fools in squares the yarn touches.... out 7 or 8 RI's
there was a little module that came with a D&D gazetta years ago called orcwars (the gazetta was called orcs of thar). basically it was designed as an expansion of noramal D&D (1st edition I believe). basically it was all about playing the monsters fighting against humans but I digress. there was one little campaign in the module called onkemar jewel of the depths which had in it a little arena where the players had to play a game that was sort of a cross betwene basketball, soccer and baseball. where just about anything goes. it had rules for things like misses and rebounds where after kicking the ball if it struck something one would have to roll a d8 to decide the direction the ball took off in. made for an indresting match were the ball would be bouncing all over the place knocking players out left right and centre lol. but I guess that would be a bit too light hearted for most d20 modern games.
DM "you missed roll to see the direction the bullet went"
*player rolls dice*
DM "the bullet flys harmlessly to the right. roll to see if you hit the wall"
player ???
DM "just roll"
*player rolls*
DM "you missed the 20ft by 10ft wall, roll for a richoet"
player "I missed a wall how can I miss a wall the wall covers the entire area"
DM "just roll"
*player rolls*
DM "the bullet richoets and comes straight back at you, roll an attack against yourself"
player "eep"
you know know i put it like that it could be fun to implement. maybe make a john wayne/clint eastwood western style game with bullets bouncing of pans, tankards, bells and what not tehehe.
ahh the joys of collateral damage :D
though I think to keep things relitivly realistic the bullets should just go in a straight line from shooter to target to what ever is behind the target. with a miss that is too low to overcome the target's dexterity the rounds should continue straight to the wall behind. either scoring a seccond attack on the next target (maybe flat footed as in the rules regarding covering person moving out of the way) or if you rather a reflex save. I guess either would work.
if it scores high enough to hit an unarmoured target but not high enough to penetrate the armour then the bullet is embedded into the armour. after which I guess you could make them roll a fortitude save depending on the size of the round to see if they are stunned (just try wearing a kevlar vest and let someone shoot you. it still hurts even if it doesn't kill) but I guess that wouldn't really make sense in the case of a .50 cal sniper rifle which would punch through a leather jacket (or even NIJ level IV armour with ceramic and titanium inserts) even if the attack score said it missed.
now I think of it armour doesn't really work in D20 modern. at least not realistically. as a leather jacket can stop any bullet if the attack roll was low enough even if it scored a touch. maybe diffrent armours need to be made usefull against diffrent weapons. such as leather jackets being good against knives but useless against firearms, plate mail being good against melee weapons and handguns but useless against a high powered rifle and kevlar being good against most rifles but not so good against .50 cal sniper rifles and heavy machine guns, after all the .50 cal sniper rifle was designed for taking out tanks and APCs during WW1.
problem is by doing that you would have to balance out the weapons to stop everyone buying sniper rifles becuse they can cut through armour no problem.
maybe I should stop tugging on this thread I think the game is unraveling as we speak lol.
I guess it comes down to realisim vs gameplay and finding that right balance.
With things like overpenetration, more accurate firearm effects, more accurate armor effects, hit locations, etc., it seems like you are forcing a level of detail onto a game system that isn't really built for that much crunch.
I like GURPS. A lot. I like D20M too, but for different reasons. If D20M is like The Transporter, then GURPS would be like Ronin. Both cool, but different.
A lot of the topics we talk about over and over in these firearm-related threads are things that GURPS handles well out of the box. Past a point, it really is easier to learn GURPS than make D20M act like GURPS.
If I haven't just made everyone mad, or broken some rule in the CoC, I'll continue. Alternately, I could start a thread on the SJG forums. (I think linking to another game company's site might be going a little too far, so I won't...)
now I think of it armour doesn't really work in D20 modern. at least not realistically. as a leather jacket can stop any bullet if the attack roll was low enough even if it scored a touch. maybe diffrent armours need to be made usefull against diffrent weapons. such as leather jackets being good against knives but useless against firearms, plate mail being good against melee weapons and handguns but useless against a high powered rifle and kevlar being good against most rifles but not so good against .50 cal sniper rifles and heavy machine guns
Use the Armour as DR then, it really makes much more sense than: woops? My .50 cal was stopped by his leather jacket?
after all the .50 cal sniper rifle was designed for taking out tanks and APCs during WW1.
What? .50 cal sniper rifles in WW1? APCs in WW1? Surely, you're joking. The Boys AntiTank Rifle was .55 and was developped in 1937. The Germans had a 7.92 AntiTank rifle, but most others were 20mm.
What do you mean by APCs? As far as I'm concerned, there were none who saw action during WW1.
problem is by doing that you would have to balance out the weapons to stop everyone buying sniper rifles becuse they can cut through armour no problem.
By that reasoning you should apply that to M73LAWs, M2HB MGs, M1 Abrams, etc... I don't think it needs "balancing". The .50 cal is an evil, hard-hitting weapon, no doubt. If you wanna pay the price and carry around the weight of the weapon (not to mention the ammo), why not? I'm sure the cops'd love to hear why you have an AntiTank rifle in your handbag.
What? .50 cal sniper rifles in WW1? APCs in WW1? Surely, you're joking. The Boys AntiTank Rifle was .55 and was developped in 1937. The Germans had a 7.92 AntiTank rifle, but most others were 20mm.
What do you mean by APCs? As far as I'm concerned, there were none who saw action during WW1.
grizzly big bore anti tank rifle. it was a WW1 .50 cal rifle designed to take out the new tanks that were being developed.
in the early day the tank was basically a big platform with a couple of machine guns or cannons mounted on the side with a track looped around it. and was used to cover infantry advances (the infantry marched behind it where they couldn't get shot) until the anti tank rifles were developed in an attempt to stop them.
and yes they hand APC's but they were called armoured cars.
also a side note the reason the tank got the name "tank" was becuse the engineers in an attempt to prevent the germans from learning about it pretended they were building a mobile water tank. the name appariently stuck
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank I know wikipedia isn't really the most accurate but also read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_rifle
With things like overpenetration, more accurate firearm effects, more accurate armor effects, hit locations, etc., it seems like you are forcing a level of detail onto a game system that isn't really built for that much crunch.
that's one of the problems with all RPGs do you go for detail and realism or do you go with ease of gameplay.
though I should mention i'm not trying to force anything just trying to work through a problem I noticed (i.e. what to do if the good guy decides to shoot the hostage to get to the bad guy) granted it also points out other short falls in the game by doing so (such as what happens to the bullet after you've shot it) no matter what the game system has it so the bullet is only either in the gun or the target square then suddenely ceases to exsist. what I'm saying is not to change the system just to try and work out a "house rule" for my particular game so I can add some fun effects (such as the player acidently hitting the cooling system for a nuclear reactor meaning they have to act quick before melt down, or allowing the shooter to hit someone hiding behind a hostage or dead body, like how many people have seen it in films like total recall where the guy hides behind a body that takes 10,000 bullets but not one passes through?)
I guess you could go into more detail like where on the body the bullet hit but that would just make things tedious, unless you're trying for a particular shot and all you have to do then is give a difficulty for hiting said target but I digress.
[QUOTE The .50 cal is an evil, hard-hitting weapon, no doubt. If you wanna pay the price and carry around the weight of the weapon (not to mention the ammo), why not? I'm sure the cops'd love to hear why you have an AntiTank rifle in your handbag
well technically in some places carrying a .50 cal rifle is perfectly legal, especially if it's not concealed. you just have to tell the cops you are going hunting or to the shooting range (yes some people actually use .50 cal rifles for hunting. infact you can buy the .50 grizzly big bore for just such a thing, though what one hunts with an anti material rifle is beyond me)
oh and I've seen the contence of some women's hand bags (how do they fit so much into a space the size of a matchbox is baffling to science so I won't be supprise if someone could fit a .50 cal rifle in there as well lol
grizzly big bore anti tank rifle. it was a WW1 .50 cal rifle designed to take out the new tanks that were being developed.
I had never heard of it. Can't seem to find much about it though.
in the early day the tank was basically a big platform with a couple of machine guns or cannons mounted on the side with a track looped around it. and was used to cover infantry advances (the infantry marched behind it where they couldn't get shot) until the anti tank rifles were developed in an attempt to stop them.
Yea, we've all seen the British MkI, I'm sure.
and yes they hand APC's but they were called armoured cars.
Yes, but did they see action?
also a side note the reason the tank got the name "tank" was becuse the engineers in an attempt to prevent the germans from learning about it pretended they were building a mobile water tank. the name appariently stuck
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank I know wikipedia isn't really the most accurate but also read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_rifle
I love etymology, and the Tank's name is a perfect example of how we shouldn't overanalyse names.
well technically in some places carrying a .50 cal rifle is perfectly legal, especially if it's not concealed. you just have to tell the cops you are going hunting or to the shooting range (yes some people actually use .50 cal rifles for hunting. infact you can buy the .50 grizzly big bore for just such a thing, though what one hunts with an anti material rifle is beyond me)
oh and I've seen the contence of some women's hand bags (how do they fit so much into a space the size of a matchbox is baffling to science so I won't be supprise if someone could fit a .50 cal rifle in there as well lol
Hrem. I'm European. I can't see any reason why a civilian would need to carry a .50BMG rifle.
cop : "sir, why do you carry an M82 .50 cal?"
guy : "I'm going rabbit-hunting."
cop : "Ehhh?"
guy : "I HAVE MY RIGHTS! 2nd AMENDMENT!"
cop : "sorry..." *walks away*
Btw. did you hear the stories of gang members shooting cops with .50 cals?
Not Anti-tank, not Anti-Material. Apers.
The 50BMG was for shooting people, that is what John Moses Browning designed, a full auto beltfed half inch bore long distance people killer.
Ronnie Barret made a gun to shoot targets far away.
After years of existance & roles in movies like Robocop, the military said Wow, we could use something like that as a Sniper weapon.... but Geneva/Hauge will come down on us for using 50cal on folks. :lightbulb We call it Anti-Material so they wont think it is a sniper weapon.
AntiTank rifles are another thing altogether.
Anyhoo-
granted it also points out other short falls in the game by doing so (such as what happens to the bullet after you've shot it) no matter what the game system has it so the bullet is only either in the gun or the target square then suddenely ceases to exsist
yes.
That must be maintined or we might as well rewrite 40% of the combat rules.
As stated earlier, you aim at the badguy who has -4 or -8 for cover (meatshield). If you hit the badguy with the penlty, then you didnt hit the cover. If you would have hit the badguy, but only missed because of the -4/-8 Meatshield, then you hit the hostage right inline with hitting the badguy: Penetration rules can have both targets damaged without further attempts to hit. Folks in the square behind the badguy should be safe because the game aint built for that level of detail (That would be PheonixCommand).
Only those 2 can be hit, even with a Abrams120Dart that can penetrate 1" steel then 10-15 folks.
Points to consider are:
How much can the hostage be able to slow the bullet, Fixed# or Level/HP based?
How much penetration does the bullet have. Stat# or Ruleset for FPS Bores & Cores?
Armor, Dex, & ClassDef... yes or no?
I've already gave my view, for realism use CyberDaves rules, for fast & easy use GunStat# Potential Damage & Fixed# for HostagePen DR
I had never heard of it. Can't seem to find much about it though.
it was the gun used in tremors 2 (that big one bert has on his back all the way through). I did have a PDF of the instruction manuel a while back for a short story I was working on but I think I deleted it.
Yes, but did they see action?
they saw action but not much as they couldn't handle the terrain of the trenches on the western front. they were mostly used for fighting in cities and towns.
Hrem. I'm European. I can't see any reason why a civilian would need to carry a .50BMG rifle.
same here. but those yanks are a weird people :P
then again I know a guy who uses a .303 assault rifle for rabbit hunting. he even reverses the bulliet to cause greater penitration (he managed to punch through a 8mm steel plate on the shooting range)
I don't see why a civilian would need a semi or full automatic weapon at all. Bolt action (or only holding 1 round) should be plenty for hunting. It's not like we have superextremelydangerous animals either.
Anyhooo.
he even reverses the bulliet to cause greater penitration
Well, thats a new one for me.
We turn bullets around so we can fit heavier, longer slugs into short neck cases, but I never heard of doing it for penetration. Sure, the lock core base wouldnt expand like the front of a hunting bullet, but if you are turning the bullet around to not have the expanding tip first.... use non-expanding bullets instead.
As for the heavier slugs,
To use a long heavy bullet the case has to have enough neck far enough back to grab the bullet. The longer the bullet, the farther back the grabbing zone is, and that can be a problem. So by turning the bullet around, the long nose points deep into the case, and the grabbing area is up front for the short neck case to grab.
The other reason is for straight wall cases like 357. The brass gets thicker, so long bullets will bulge the brass atthe base of the bullet. By turningthe bullet around, the nose wont bulge the brass and we can thump out 250gr slugs from a 357...
I can't see any reason why a civilian would need to carry a .50BMG rifle
Carry, no... No I dont see a 50bmg as a carry weapon either.
However, to have one for sporting purposes is another story altogether.
I fail to see why anyone would need to carry a bowling ball.
What the heck are you going to do with a 8lb shot put?
What purpose does a frisbee serve?
You might want to check out the olympics, they have several competitions for marksmanship. Close, far, air, firearm, even active biathalon ski&shoot.
When it comes to shooting a competition match at 10m, a pistol will do.
When the competition match is at 100m, smallbore rifle.
When the competition match is at 500m, rifles.
But when it comes to the real tests of extreme marksmanship, at ranges over 1000m, not just any old 30cal rifle will do the task. Nope, to compete lobbing the longballs you need some more weight to tell air resistance to take a hike. And while lobbing the 500gr 45 thumpers will get the slug out that far, flatter shooting is less windage, and flatter = faster. Put 500-700gr for momentum together with fast for accuracy, and you get a really powerful target gun.
John Browning didnt make his gun to shoot Tanks.
Ronnie Barret didnt make his gun to shoot Material.
Folks have taken long existing tools, and renamed them to fit their purposes/agenda. You dont need a 50bmg to shoot airliners, a 22rimfire semi will do it very nicely. You dont need a 50bmg to shoot cops, a crossbow will slice non-stab rated kevlar very nicely.
Gotta love that wiki, it says-
50BMG caliber in service 1921, for upscaled m1917 30cal gun
50BMG caliber in service 1914
50bmg caliber designed around 1900
50bmg caliber designed as upscaled 30-06
50bmg caliber designed based on a winchester caliber <30-06 is springfield>
designed as a response to the German 13 mm anti-tank rifle
and adopted by the U.S. as the Model 1921
I could go on.... but we all know wiki is Iffy at best
@ Crwydryny: Thanks for the info. Don't know Tremors.
I don't see why a civilian would need a semi or full automatic weapon at all. Bolt action (or only holding 1 round) should be plenty for hunting. It's not like we have superextremelydangerous animals either.
Anyhooo.
I'm going to dodge the political side of this argument and offer this answer:
Going hunting can be very dangerous, especially when you're hunting something that lives in same area as larger, tougher animals like bears. If you're retrieving your kill, and a bear (probably not fearful of you thanks to campers leaving stuff lying around for them to eat) comes in and tries to take it from you, semi-auto sounds really, REALLY nice.
If I'm correct, some hunters even carry larger pistols (Desert Eagle, anyone?) as defensive weapons when hunting game in dangerous areas.
there is a reason we call 180gr 357mag "BearSlugs",
and the 6" 45-70 derringer is another popular choice... I'll take the broken wrist over becoming a bear ragdoll squeekytoy
We in the USA also use weapons for home and/or personal defense as well as for just plain fun! I think it is great fun shooting guns at targets and such!
:D
@ the "defensive" D.E.: hehe. I have a hard time understanding how a .50AE can be a defensive weapon. :D
@Stigmatador: I can perfectly see the fun of target practice, and I've even considered travelling to the states to get some weapons training after I pass my officer graduation (which is in about, 3-4 years as I'm still in school), because the marksmanship aspect is slightly neglected in the Danish Army (aka. we suck at shooting stuff - it's nice to be backed up by the USA sometimes). ;)
But let us stop the political stuff here before we start flaming eachother. I'd rather be friends with you guys. :P
Lets get back to work: These meatshields arent going to shoot themselves.
Well, thats a new one for me.
We turn bullets around so we can fit heavier, longer slugs into short neck cases, but I never heard of doing it for penetration. Sure, the lock core base wouldnt expand like the front of a hunting bullet, but if you are turning the bullet around to not have the expanding tip first.... use non-expanding bullets instead.
well here in the UK expanding bullets are illegal for firearms. thanks to some idiots shooting people. infact to own any firearm you have to own a firearm licence for each type of weapon (black powder, rifle, shotgun, handgun) and ontop of that you need individual licenses for each calibler of ammo you wish to store. then you got to prove to the cops that you have a secure place to store each weapon (i.e a hardened steel safe boldted to the wall) we can't even use glass display cases. and you have to prove that you have a seprate safe to store the ammo. then on top off that the cops have to check on it every year or so to make sure that you're still obaying by the terms of your liscence.
it's stupid. we can have air rifles up to 12lb of force but for something like 1/2 a lb higher and you need to buy a firearm liscence (after haveing the gun chopped up by the cops for not having the liscence to start with) before you can buy another gun of simalar power.
weapon laws here are stupid. we're not even allowed to own fake katana's without a martial art's liscence but we can own a real katana without a liscence lol
also on the note of reversing bullets it was also used during WW1 by standard infantry in an attempt to defeat enemy armour
SWORDS & Meatshields:
Yes/no on overpenetration? Whatcha think lads?
I would imagine it had a lot to do with AOI, the blunt base would self induce less armor glance than the sloped nose.
SWORDS & Meatshields:
Yes/no on overpenetration? Whatcha think lads?
I think it would be easier to control the penetration. One could stop the weapon before you stab it through the guy. But in d20 that doesn't matter, because the only way to kill someone with a sword is by slashing him to death. With a spear on the other hand (being a Piercing weapon), I'd say one could stab through both, or choose to only stab the front guy.
to include StrBonus, 1.5x for 2handing, PowerAttack, etc
How can we stab with all our might, yet not as much as we could, to prevent overpenetration. Should we restrict bonus damage for power/strength?
I recognize your point on Slashing. Sure, makes sense.
I suppose Bash would be similar, so we are really just talking about Pierceing stabbys.
it could be considered a AoE or Chained Stabbing?