I have a question that, though not being particularly related to Modern, I decided to ask here, cause, according to my experience, this board has much more helpful attitude than the D&D general - and it might be actually relevant to the d20M as well as 3.5.
The question is, is there any rules for throwing objects? That is, how long exactly can a character with strenght X throw something that weighs Y pounds? I remember seeing this answered in some old D&D FAQ - there was even a lovely example of 26 Str epic level Half-Orc Barbarian throwing his warhorse, but I can't find it anywhere.
On a similar note, what about throwing characters? How much strenght is required to throw party's infiltrator through an open window on a 4th-floor? What kind of checks are required? I guess attack with the improvised weapon, followed by the Tumble check by the infiltrator, but what would the DCs be? Or is it something entirely different?
I know there is probably no rules for such staff, but I'll really appeciate if someone could houserule it for me.
For throwing particularly heavy objects, like people, first you do need a high strength, but then you get into the weird situation of doubling-up checks. The easiest way to do it (and I'm just thinking out loud here) is to roll one character's attack roll (to throw) as if it were an Aid Another check, and then adjust the thrown character's Tumble check (or whatever) accordingly. I'd also recommend a scaled Aid bonus instead of the flat +2 (which is kind of dinky, actually). +2 for making the DC, another +2 for exceeding it by 5, and etc.
Now, none of that tells you anything about how far you can throw something particularly heavy. Anyone have any ideas about that? I actually should put this into Phoenix, come to think of it! "Fastball Special" and all that.
I believe you can throw anything that's less than your light load, and if it's half that, you can throw it with one hand. I have no memory of where I read that, though.
Thanks, though, as you say,
Now, none of that tells you anything about how far you can throw something particularly heavy. Anyone have any ideas about that? I actually should put this into Phoenix, come to think of it!
Sure, what's a superhero game without throwing cars into your opponents?
As for second question, it seems we are thinking along the same lines, which is definitely good.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/MSRD:Improvised_Weapons
Give me a while to work out something with my group
1d1 Diminutive: Ashtray, CD disk case, crystal paperweight
1d2 Tiny: Fist-sized rock, mug, screwdriver, softball, flashlight, wrench
1d3 Small Bottle: drill, fire extinguisher, flower pot, helmet, metal hubcap, vase
1d4 Medium-size: Bar stool, brick, briefcase, bowling ball, garbage can lid, hockey stick, nail gun
1d6 Large: Empty garbage can, guitar, computer monitor, office chair, tire iron
1d8 Huge: 10-foot ladder, mailbox, oil barrel, park bench, sawhorse
2d6 Gargantuan: Desk, dumpster, file cabinet, large sofa, soda machine
2d8 Colossal: Junked vehicle, stoplight, telephone pole
A character can effectively wield or throw an object of his or her size category or smaller using one hand. A character can effectively wield or throw an object one size category larger than him or herself using two hands. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet. Increase the range increment for creatures of Large size or larger as follows: Large 15 feet, Huge 30 feet, Gargantuan 60 feet, Colossal 120 feet.
Seems pretty straight forward, Objects by size rather than weight
- Can throw an object his size or smaller using one hand.
- Can throw an object one size category larger using two hands.
- An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
- Increase the range increment for Thrower size: Large 15' , Huge 30', Gargan 60', Col 120'
So, a Medium creature can throw a Large object with 2 hands.
We just have the problem of fitting a medium body into the Weapon Size scale rather using the regular size scale.
A) Empty garbage can, guitar, computer monitor, office chair, tire iron
B) 10-foot ladder, mailbox, oil barrel, park bench, sawhorse
Theres your problem... a Tire Iron = ComputerMonitor for ease of attacking someone, while a 600lb OilBarrel is like a couple of 2x4s. In this set of examples, a medium body would have to be considered B (Huge)
A Large creature can throw a Huge Weapon (impr: Medium Body) with 2 hands 10+15' RI (125').
It stands to assume that a mutant could have the ability to be Treated As One Size Category Larger For Throwing
It would not be a far stretch to make up a Toss houserule:
A Creature my 2hand Toss an object 2 sizes larger that itself its a total distance-
Dim/Tint/Sm 5', Med 10', Large 15' , Huge 30', Gargan 60', Col 120'
It is a shame that either
a) Neither mankind nor the universe have ever made any object larger than a junk car
or
b) That there is no WoC size above Colossal to allow bigger things than cars to exist... considering where 'cars' fit in the whole Vehicle/Mech/Spaceship frame of reference: can the largest WoC object like a car fit any ShipsWeapons like FusionGun/PPC/GaussAC? If a car is Colossal, what size is the sr71Blackbird or Schoolbus
That's good, for combat situations - or at least acceptable for combat situations - but what I am looking for isn't the ability to damage someone with a thrown object, but the ability to throw said object at all - and, more importantly, the distance it could be thrown to, and that clearly should take into accound both the weight of the thing being thrown and the strenght of the throwing character.
'm thinking about something along the lines of:
Throwing objects
A creature can throw an object weighing up to it's light load to the distance of 50 feet. This distance is decreased by 5 feet for each point of strength creature lacks to consider object a light load and increased by 10 feet for each point of strength in excess. (For example, 35 lbs is a light load for a creature with strength 11. Such a creature could throw it 50 feet, while creature with strength 10 would only throw it 45 feet, and one with strength 14 could throw it 80 feet).
Objects weighing more then a creature's medium load can only be tossed 10 feet, and objects weighing more than the creatures heavy load cannot be thrown at all.
You can attempt to throw object one-handed, but in this case you treat it as if it was twice the actual weight of the object.
For creatures of the size other them Medium, use the following modifiers to the distance thrown:
Large: x1.5
Huge: x3
Gargan: x6
Col: x12
Small: x1/2
Tiny: x1/4
Fi/Dim: no more than 5 feet
You can throw an object vertically rather then horizontally, in this caes the maximum height is half of the maximum lenght of the throw. You can't toss objects vertically.
Round all numbers down to the nearest 5-feet increment.
Throwing characters
A character can attempt to throw another character. This follows the same rules as throwing abn object, except as follows:
If you try to throw an unwilling, non-helpless creature, your strength is treated as if it was 2 less than it is.
If you throw a willing creature, it may assist you by making a Jump check (DC=your Strenght). If the check is successful, your strength is treated as if it was 2 more than it is.
To land safely, thrown creature must make a Tumble check (DC=15+1 per 5 feet thrown). If the check is successful, the creature lands safely. If it fails, The creature ends up prone. If it fails by 5 or more, it suffers damage as if it has fallen one-half of thrown distance.
Throwing characters on target
To throw a creature on target that is within maximum thrown distance, make a non-proficient ranged attack roll. If you hit the target's touch defence, the thrown character ends up on target (what happens exactly depends on the nature of target). If you miss by 4 or less, thrown character may still end up on target by making a Tumble check (DC 15+5 for each point attack roll missed). If you miss by 5 or more, thrown creature ends up in a random square next to the target.
These rules obv. need a lot of work and number-crunching, but I'll use it as a starting piont. Any advice appreciated, of course.
keeping in mind the wight of a Greatsword, consider these guys One Handed Throws:
[INDENT]
In men's competition, the shot weighs 7.26 kilograms (16 pounds). The women's shot weighs 4 kg (8.8 pounds). American high schools usually use 12 pound (5.44 kg) shots for boys and 4 kg shots for girls; these are sometimes used as practice shots as well. The weight of the ball differs depending on the age group. Men over the age of 50 or under 19 use a 6 kg shot (13.2 pounds) in international competition.
Top Tier world class records are 22-23m for a 16lb shot.
that is like 70' for a Str18 guy throwing 1/6th a Light Load
[/INDENT]
A creature can throw an object weighing up to it's light load to the distance of 50 feet. This distance is decreased by 5 feet for each point of strength creature lacks to consider object a light load and increased by 10 feet for each point of strength in excess.
You can attempt to throw object one-handed, but in this case you treat it as if it was twice the actual weight of the object
Your proposal would have the olympic look like
50lb shotputs thrown 50'
16lb shots would be treated as 33lb(str10), Str18 guys would throw 50'+40' ... well past world records
16lb shots would get olympic distances for Str12 dweebs
which of course is assuming the world record Shotputter was only Str18, where as many PCs would put that guy to shame
I would suggest grabbing 5gal plastic bucket and tape measure,
remove the wire handle stuff & fill it with 4gal water,
and see how far you can throw a 33lb chunk of object (Str10 LightLoad),
and use that as a base for your system.
Throwing characters
A character can attempt to throw another character. This follows the same rules as throwing abn object, except as follows:
If you try to throw an unwilling, non-helpless creature, your strength is treated as if it was 2 less than it is.
If you throw a willing creature, it may assist you by making a Jump check (DC=your Strenght). If the check is successful, your strength is treated as if it was 2 more than it is.
You neglect the problems that are easily identified by a 6'4 guy with Str975 pushing the earth down from him "just a few yards". When the guy exerts 4.7x10^728 pounds of downward force on the earth, what will actually happen is that feather of a 300lb guy will go shooting off into space as the earth moves in no appreciable degree.
Without enough mass or counter bracing, the thrower will experience the recoil forces involved in applying enough energy to move 300lb Object A will be applied to 300lb Object B as well.
Strength alone cant determine if your bagillion megaton push move the earth, or the earth stands still and you push yourself off into space.
Some movies are entertaining, Colossas throwing Wolfie,
some are embarasing, Hulk throwing tanks
PS: in Phoenix, I invented a new size category called "Ginormous." It continues the standard mathematical progression up from Colossal, and includes things like a 18-wheelers, small jets, or stretch hummers.
Yeah, I know those numbers are very inconsistent right now. I'll try to juggle the numbers around a bit...
Then again,
The men's hammer weighs 16 pounds (7.257 kg)
The current world record for the men's hammer was set by Yuriy Sedykh who threw 86.74 metres (284 ft 7 in)
I actually spent some time researching Olympic results in throwing, and they are inconsistent with one another, such as:
Shot put: 16 lbs, 1-handed: 75 feet (then again, they are more like tossing the shot, rather then throwing it)
Hammer throw: 16 lbs, 2-handed: 285 feet
Discus throw: 4 lb 7 oz, 1-handed: 240 feet
Javelin throw: 1.76 lb, 1-handed, with run-up: 300+ feet
Weight throw: 35 lbs, 2-handed (probably, since Wiki states that"The technique implemented to throw the weight is similar to that of the hammer throw in outdoor competition"): 84 feet
I'll try to make my system at least somewhat consistent with these numbers. Actually, I thing it is quite correct to assume Olympic athletes have a strehgth of 22-24.
You neglect the problems that are easily identified by a 6'4 guy with Str975 pushing the earth down from him "just a few yards". When the guy exerts 4.7x10^728 pounds of downward force on the earth, what will actually happen is that feather of a 300lb guy will go shooting off into space as the earth moves in no appreciable degree.
Well, I never planned the system to be scalable to SUCH an extent... And, I'd say, any game that includes characters with Str975 probably won't have a problem with the Earth being "pushed down just a few yards":-)
Oh, and, should you actually develop a weapon requiring to roll "Two dee ten-root-three and a dee thirteen", make sure to post it, OK?
upd: The problem, as I see it, is that Str an d20 is exponential (or, rather, carriing capacity is), so, actually, throw distance should increase exponentially with strenght and decrease linearly with weight. Now, making a program that calculates it for any given stats isn't hard, but recalculating it for each character and each thrown object is sure troublesome as long as PC is unavailable...
A thrown object (not an aerodynamically-designed weapon!) travels a number of range increments equal to the thrower's Strength bonus? Thus, with Strength 35, the object goes 12 increments (120 ft.).
I'm just spit-balling, here, tossing out a bad idea to see if it generates a good one.
I'm not sure I can generate any more good ideas today (it's 2:17 AM for me), but I'll think it all over again tomorrow.
What if you have a negative Str bonus?
I'm not sure I can generate any more good ideas today (it's 2:17 AM for me), but I'll think it all over again tomorrow.
A negative STR bonus would either result in not being able to throw it or not even being able to pick the object up.
But if you think about it, is the frail techie with a -1 STR Mod really going to try to lift and toss the brawler who has a +4 STR Mod? More likely it'd be the brawler who'd toss the techie into a window so they can hack the security system (for example).
"A character can effectively wield or throw an object of his or her size category or smaller using one hand. A character can effectively wield or throw an object one size category larger than him or herself using two hands. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet. Increase the range increment for creatures of Large size or larger as follows: Large 15 feet, Huge 30 feet, Gargantuan 60 feet, Colossal 120 feet."
A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five increments.
Throwing does not require a proficiency.
Thrown weapons given in the base book have a range increment of 10 ft as well; this puts a 50-foot cap on thrown weapon ranges.
Note that this *does* allow for a Fastball Special, as Wolverine and Colossus are the same size category (Medium). He doubtless took a -4 nonproficiency penalty at first (throwing doesn't require proficiency, but a human body is definitely an improvised weapon, which does receive a penalty by the SRD), but then he didn't throw him very far in the first use, back in Uncanny X-Men #100: Just far enough, high enough, to take down a carbon copy of Angel. -6 total, I'd say.
This was already posted by backstabbist, note, please, that Medium creature is by no means a medium improvised weapon - actually, it seems to be Huge, meaning that Medium character can't throw it at all.
Also, the problem is mainly that the system in the SRD doesn't take into account weight of the object being thrown, nor a thrower's strength. That's why I'm trying to put together an alternative system...
Oh, and, should you actually develop a weapon requiring to roll "Two dee ten-root-three and a dee thirteen", make sure to post it, OK?
Warms my heart to see folks enjoying my posts
Also, the problem is mainly that the system in the SRD doesn't take into account weight of the object being thrown, nor a thrower's strength. That's why I'm trying to put together an alternative system
The weight of the object is considered in determining its Size Category
Throwing bodies is just like throwing big squishy grenades that dont explode.
You pick a target square, consider the Range Incs, and roll a tohit.
Perhaps your rule should look at the nontargeted throws only.
Then a Max Thrown Distance would be a Strength Check with base and bonus/pen distance. Or, to skip the legwork of fitting a function to various sizes for the distance, use a fixed Full Distance by height, and set StrDC to go %s of that.
Shotput is throwing a object, it could be square and it would go almost as far.
Hammerthrow & Weight-Throw is throwing a designed sling object that is in effect its own sling
The question seems to remain: with a Strength of X, how far in Y feet can a I throw an object weighing Z number of pounds?
Size Category is not just measuring the objects xyz lengths, but its weight as well.
A Black Hole may be the same volume as a plum, but the weight of a star in that volume makes it Size Colossal even though it is not actually a big thing.
-- So any system that uses Size Category is already incorporating the objects weight.
You already saw, but I reminded the folks playing along at home that Medium Size is both medium creature Arnold Schartzenager, as well as the medium pistol he shoots... It is a pain to have 2 different scales of Size: Like saying something is 3 big, but not saying if that is feet or meters. "Medium Size" is either 1foot or 7foot while "Small Size" is 3ft.
A Medium Object like a mailbox is a Huge weapon.
And that is a pain.
The question seems to remain: with a Strength of X, how far in Y feet can a I throw an object weighing Z number of pounds?
If we forget about other than medium size throwers for now.
Different throws: Heaves (shotput/straight style) and Slings (hammerthrow/spin)
We can call the Heave a MoveEquiv or Attack Action while the spinny sling is a FullRound.
Lets agree on some datapoints we want to fit this to:
Heave: Str10, 30lb (4gal Waterjug) .... you wanna say 15'?
Sling: Str10, 30lb (5gal gascan)... 30'?
We could fit a simple Sling Dist = 10x HeavyLoad / Wt , Heave Dist = 1/2 Sling Dist
Spinning SlingThrow, Str10 30lb ... Dist = 10x (100) / (30lb) = 33ft
... but that is only Str10
Heave, Str18, 30lbCrate 50'
Sling, Str18, 30lb gascan 100'
Which we could fit Str18 Sling Dist = 10x HL(300) / Wt(30) = 100'
Sling Str20, 200lb... 10x (400) / 200lb = 20'... could throw a guy 20' thru the air
Sling Str23, 200lb... 10x (600) / 200lb = 30', or just grab & throw 15' no spin
Sling Str23, 120lb... 10x (600) / 120lb = 50' thrown chick
This will fit in the same non-linear set of numbers we see in the max weight for Strength10 (100) ~ Strength18 (300).
Heavy Sling Distance = 10x / Wt .... (Z= HeavyLoad/100 )
cause HeavyLoad is Str3(30), Str10(100), Str18(300), Str20(400)
So, Different throwing types, and a simple D = 10x HL / Wt
We are only dealing with Medium throwers
and I really would have to reconsider this plan to incorporate throwers height if we start talking about guys over 40' tall.
If you dont have big guys,
then it should work OK in the frame of d20 coarseness & speed of play.
But it just gives a max distance, no rolling for success or quality of throw:
If you say you want to throw a grenade thru that 2nd story window, that is a ToHit & you count RI's for range penalty. If you say you want to throw a 40lb satchel charge thru that window, it too is a range inc ToHit. If you then want to throw the 160lb Demo Guy thru that window to arm the satchel charge, it would be a range inc ToHit just like the grenade..... and we havent done this as a Range Inc ToHit throw
I don't think an extremely strong person could throw a ping-pong ball more han a few inches further than an average person. Same would apply to a baseball size object. I don't think Batista could throw a pitch further than Sandy Koufax.
Strenght may allow you to throw larger, heavier objects, but I am not sure it would allow you to throw lighter objects further.
and compare that to the pounds of force on the back of a 40mm grenade while fired,
we will see that it is the immense "strength of the throw" that makes the m203 throw the grenade several times farther than the weaker hand throw of a similar grenade.... perhaps if the arm pushed with hundreds of lbs of force on the back of the projectile it would match the m203 force & distance
The m203 aint using Dex or Will to propell that object, its using brute force of strength measured in pounds (per sq inch but applied to a known area = pounds)
ok
We are only dealing with Medium throwers
and I really would have to reconsider this plan to incorporate throwers height if we start talking about guys over 40' tall.
I'm not really sure it would be necessary, actually, since it seems carrying capacity for largeer-then-medium creatures are already taking into account both their great strength (via the STR sizr bonus) and the ability to make a large swing (via carrying modifier). Let's see just how far some D&D Giants can sling-throw a 200 lbs hero...
Ogre (Str21, Large) - (460*2*10/200)=46 feet - seems reasonable
Hill Giant (Str25, Large) - (800*2*10/200)=80 feet - guess OK
Storm Giand (Str39, Huge) - ((1400*4)*4*10/200)=1120 feet... a bit overboard, I'd say, but 39 strength is A LOT, so, possible...
Great Wyrm Red Dragon... (800*16*16*10/200)=10240 feet... just short of 2 miles...
It seems we need to give really large creatures penalties to throw distance, not bonuses...
How far can a colossal dude throw a colossal Rock to bean somebody in RAW?
1handed RI 120... +Farshot = 1800' to peg someone with a not lofted throw
Check out what happens with 2600 fps guns as they get bigger
The slug from a 7.62 or 50BMG or a 16" navalgun go about the same speed,
but one goes 40 kilometers
If we measure the pounds of force on the back of a grenade when hand thrown,
and compare that to the pounds of force on the back of a 40mm grenade while fired,
we will see that it is the immense "strength of the throw" that makes the m203 throw the grenade several times farther than the weaker hand throw of a similar grenade.... perhaps if the arm pushed with hundreds of lbs of force on the back of the projectile it would match the m203 force & distance
The m203 aint using Dex or Will to propell that object, its using brute force of strength measured in pounds (per sq inch but applied to a known area = pounds)
Yes, to get something to go twice as far, you must apply AT LEAST twice as much energy.
However, that does not mean that when you apply twice as much energy, the item goes twice as far.
A guy next to me at the gym can squat twice the weight I can. He cannot, however, jump twice as far.
Take your generic musket. Put in one scoop of gunpowder and add musketball on top. Fires at 1000 feet per second. Now, put in 2 scoops of gunpowder and add one musket ball. you will NOT acheive 2000 feet per second, but instead stay pretty close to the original 1000 feet per second. You can, however, put in 2 scoops of powder and 2 musket balls, and get 1000 feet per second from both projectiles. (provided a stong barrel...)
For the throwing rules, I'd ignore strength, and simply go with object size in relation to thrower's size. Equal size = A feet, both hands required. 1 size smaller = B feet, 2 sizes smaller = C, etc etc.
As suggested harvest values A, B, and C from real world data, but stay away from olympic records, as those are outliers by definition.
If I was going to go beyond that, i'd simply add the rules:
#1 something extremely light or extremely heavy or extremely unweildy, cut distance thrown in half.
This means you might be able to throw a toaster B feet, but a feather pillow the same size goes half the distance, as would a lead cube the size of a toaster.
#2 extreme strength creatures can throw an item 1 size catagory large than themselves Z distance (short, like 10 feet)
Of course I'd let any creature drop something of weight equal to their max carry, and I'd allow them to thrust outward as they were dropping it, allowing it to land say 2+ 1d4 feet from their feet (and then possibly bounce and karoom around)