I don't recall having these debates in DnD, i.e., ' could a greatsword really do 2d6 damage?, etc.'
I can't help but wonder if that is because many of us have real life experiences and no experience from the middle ages.
I recall a story where Richard the Lionhearted and Salidin met and compared weapons. Richard chopped an iron bar in half with his two-handed sword. Salidin pulled out a silk scarf, flung it in the air and sliced it with his scimitar.
It would be interesting to bring those two back and have them review/comment on the DnD damage and combat rules....
After the Franchise Wars of the late 20th century,
In the Future, all swords are Katanas
Ok, kidding aside (mostly ;) ),
The deal is that with Melee weapons it is really a matter of the user input as to how much enegy & effect the tool has to do damage with. When we compare ahitting someone with a cricket bat vs a baseball bat, it really matters more if we are comparing PeterOToole hitting you or MikeTyson hitting you.... the bat flavor really doent come into play as much as the thug swinging it.
With a pistol though, it dont matter if Tyson is the one shooting a 38NewPolice and OToole has the 357Grizzly... both of the .35" 125gr slugs depend far more on how much gunpowder was in the case than how hard the guy pulled the trigger.
And that is a very know, very distinct, very quantitative metric.
We can tell exactly how much more hurt the 357Griz can deliver than the 38np.
You choose a 38LongColt because it has more power than the 38np.
You what makes the 38Special be so special is it has more power than 38LC.
You tote around the extra wt because the 357mag has more power than 38Spec.
And for even more wt is the hand cannons that shoot stuff like 357Grizzly.
In review, BreakTop 38NewPolice is 3x pathetic but light weight & cheap, the LAR Grizzly is a heavy portocannon but you carry it for the more damage... more meaning it does 2d6 whereas the cute lil 38 does 2d6.
But unlike D&D making assumptions & gross estimates, we have very real hard data on exactly how much energy different guns have. We also have Gelatin Tests and (coopers?) 1ShotStop stats, along with the old ThompsonGrange(sp?) Cattle Drop tests.
D&D melee is fantasy.
Modern gunplay is science.
In d20 Modern, the greataxe (12-gauge) deals the same damage as a longsword (5.56x45mm), and the dagger (5.7x28mm) deals more damage than the shortsword (9x19mm).
Shirley you have seen all the Katana Is Uber threads for D&D.
Yes and don't call me Shirley.
In review, BreakTop 38NewPolice is 3x pathetic but light weight & cheap, the LAR Grizzly is a heavy portocannon but you carry it for the more damage... more meaning it does 2d6 whereas the cute lil 38 does 2d6.
I apparently have not had enough OJ this morning or its time to break out the 2ltr Dew. Doesn't 2d6=2d6? Were both handguns SUPPOSED to be the same damage? I don't have a rulebook with me.
D&D melee is fantasy.
Modern gunplay is science.
I couldn't agree more.
Missing the ZEN of the Iron Sights,
Doug
Derringer is a tiny weapon that does 2d4.
Pistol is a small that does 2d6.
HeavyPistol should be medium for 2d8
Carbine is large(2hand) for 2d8
Rifle is large(also 2hand) to 2d10
HeavyRifle is large(2hand yet again) for 2d10
AMR/Portocannon is Huge (cannot use in carry) for 2d12
So the AGB train is broken, as guns bet bigger they do not get better, and they dont have a carry ability scale like the dagger-shortsword-longsword-greatsword
Now to really break things up,
22/38 Derringer Tiny 2d4
9/45 Derringer Tiny 2d6
44mag Derringer Tiny 2d8
45-70 Derringer Tiny 2d10
( 5.7fn Derringer Tiny WillSaveDC40 or PermaDead ... yes, WillSave, you cant believe something that small has a DC40 Save or Die)
Modern reality dont really paying much attention to game balance
1. People tend to forget that game systems, and thus damage ratings within such systems, are abstracts themselves measuring against abstract conceptualizations of superheroic characters and have no real-life equivalents in the first place.
2. Most people in such conversations secretly believe in their own invulnerability in real life and are making fallacious comparisons internally, as to what it would take to bring them down. They then relate these back to the previously mentioned superheroes and vicariously enjoy the notion that they, too, are indestructible.
3. This leads people to make what in the real world would be completely pointless comparisons. If, instead of comparing their internal imaginary selves with superheroes, these people instead compared themselves with 1st-level ordinaries, they'd realize that a bastard sword is just as likely to kill them as a shotgun and the argument would end.
4. People do not take into account the notion of game balance. Just as in the real world, where arguments over whether you want your head chopped off or a bullet put through your heart are useless, so too is it useless to debate the damage ratings of weapons with like cost and required proficiency in an abstract game system, where that cost and proficiency were measured to ensure that the characters were relatively evenly matched in the rate of damage they could put out.
And finally, it has to be mentioned:
5. People are sentimental and loyal to their own notion of "coolness." Thus, it is easy for one of these people to fall into the trap of thinking the weapon they are most sentimental about, or with which they may have personal experience, is the best (and thus, MUST deal the most damage!). That's one thing, for instance, that goes to explaining the whole katana debate.
Really it's all about game balance. In real life these questions are relatively moot. I mean I've stuck myself in the leg with my own katana and I've cut myself with kitchen knives and hobby knives. I've got my finger pinched in the hammer of my old .22, and I've accidentally touched a hot gun barrel. None of that was remotely fatal, but I'd hate to actually be on the business end of any of those things.
True, in the hands of a complete amateur, it is likely that a shot in the leg with a .22 will do much less damage physically than that from a .45. But when we're talking about game characters, we're not talking about amateurs. We're talking about experts who rarely hit legs. In real life an expert can kill you just as quickly with a lower caliber bullet because he's probably going to hit you in the head.
Personally, though I love Old School RPGs and respect where D&D and its related systems came from, I feel variable die rolls for damage are kind of beside-the-point. The attack roll should determine accuracy of the hit, and thus, the extent of damage. The actual damage rating of a weapon ought to be fixed.
Anyway, that's me rambling on...
In real life an expert can kill you just as quickly with a lower caliber bullet because he's probably going to hit you in the head
Oh, yeah, most here will agree with that.
If that were reflected in the rules it would be swell, but folks are hard pressed to get their shots to become more Killful as they progress in levels: You will miss less, but as your enemies gain HD your singleshot match pistol stays at 2d6 for all hits.
I feel variable die rolls for damage are kind of beside-the-point. The attack roll should determine accuracy of the hit, and thus, the extent of damage. The actual damage rating of a weapon ought to be fixed.
Sure. That would be nice.
I always looked at the gun damage roll as a mix of the power of the gun to a scale of 'locationless' severity : All hits will hit locations that range from just minor hurt (1) to Killshot (10) on a 1st level guy. The name of the location doesnt matter, if you want you can just write up location lables that get applied to the damage total- If you did 3 damage then you must have hit a arm/leg whereas higher numbers get more dire names. But all those names dont matter.
But we can scale the Scratch to Killshot (scale 1-10) to the relative power of a given gun to the nominal 'Generic Gunshot'. A pistol rates 120% ,a rifle is 200%. So a quick combination of Severity d10 x RelativeGunshot% = damage.... meaning we can just give each gun its own Severity&Power in the form of Pistol 2d6 and Rifle2d10. It is just a combination of Random Location Severity applied to relative gun Power.
But that doesnt lend itself to applying shooter skill improvement to hitting more killful spots than a mook getting lucky. Some games allot for Called Shots, trading the only thing that improves, BAB, for more damage potential, focusing on the more killful hit locations.
Perhaps a feat like PowerAttack could be used to simulate using increasing BAB to achieve increasing hitting more vital spots: Centerer Mass. Trade BAB for damage, if are so skilled that you can hit the mook in your sleep, then trade some of that into more damage like PowerAttack:
+1 per BAB for weapons 1-12 damage capable
+2 per BAB for weapons 13-20
+3 per BAB for over 20
Centering a 50bmg by a 1/2" will produce better gains than centering a 9mm by a 1/2"
That, or just add every point you made the Attack Roll by to the damage total.
This will teach your players that getting shot is something to avoid.
If you want to change that, then you'd have to over-haul the whole damage system, I think, or build in some kind of cascading damage to firearms, like a feat that doubles damage if you forgo one of your attacks, or something like that, but it would get unbalanced really quickly. Tread carefully, that's all I'm saying!
Me, I'm happy with cinematic action that little to do with the real world.
Also, we have some basic logic in the stats of melee weapons. A longsword deals more damage than a dagger.
In d20 Modern, the greataxe (12-gauge) deals the same damage as a longsword (5.56x45mm), and the dagger (5.7x28mm) deals more damage than the shortsword (9x19mm).
This actually sums up the problem right here.
The problem with d20 Modern's firearm damage isn't realism, its logic. D&D weapons (mostly) follow a logical pattern, d20 Modern's firearms barely do, if at all.
If they just listed guns like they list melee weapons, we'd be much better off. Instead of listing specific sword designs made by individual weaponsmiths, in the PHB they just have "longsword 1d8" and "shortsword 1d6." If they listed guns the same way, then you could buy the damage and size you want--"1d6 handgun" or "2d6 machine gun" or whatever--and then call it whatever brand name you like. If you really want it to be a Smith&Wesson, then by all means, call it a Smith&Wesson.
(And yes, I know I've probably spelled "Wesson" incorrectly. Just shows how much I care about the brand name, eh?)
But they don't, and that's where the illogical stats chafe me. Anyone who knows anything about terminal ballistics knows that a little 31-grain 5.7mm slug going 2300FPS won't cause much of a wound cavity, nor will it have the momentum to penetrate deeply in tissue. All ballistics testing to date has proven this. And yet, per the core rules, this little over-hyped .22 Magnum deals more damage than a 2-3/4" 12-gauge 1oz slug! Someone was smoking some serious stuff when they brainstormed these stats.
Variable damage adds a bit of suspense to the game. How many times have we all high-fived each other after confirming a critical?
(Of course, there is the time I rolled natural 20's twice in a row, failed to confirm criticals on both, and went on to roll minimum damage both times...
)It's also realistic. I work in criminal justice and have had the unfortunate opportunity to see how luck plays out in real life. I've seen cases where people survive shots to the chest and kidneys, but another where a person dies from a stab wound to the thigh.
But the gaps in the logical progression compounded by the coarseness (357mag/max is not more damaging than a 9mm) can really frustrate.
But to get towards the OP,
we see more realism problems because the weight & velocity of a 45 is a very fixed & know quantity that has hard relation to other fixed & know quantity calibers. We dont really know just how hard a guy was bale to swing that longsword on each attack... was he off balance a litle, was he getting tired, was he out of position... we really cant say. But if you fall on your face, panting like a locomotive, and squeeze off a shot between your feet at a guy, each & every time that 45 will drive the slugs out at 875fps.
here is a quick Game Balance breaker:
Each Double = +50% Initial (ok, not my favorite, but hold on a sec)
200ftlb power gun gets 2d6 (pistol)
x2 = 400ftlb, x4... x8... x16 = 3200ftlb for 2d6+4d6
double that for 6400ftlb 2d6+5d6
and one last time to reach 12k ftlb 2d6+6d6 (50BMG 12k)
I like this idea because it ties accuracy of the hit in with damage in a much better way than standard d20 rules.
But man that would be waaaay too killy in modern.
It might be cool with decimal values so a 9mm = 2.25 while a 357mag = 2.8... and different service pistols could range from 2.0 to 3.0 to provide another variable for balancing and more accurate modeling of real gun differences.
It could get hairy fast at mid level when you might be making shots by 8 or 10 over with a decent BAB +MCraft etc. What would work for a pistol to do 2 or 3 points & rifle to 5 or 6 in low level hands might make a rifle do 50+ in mid level hands
but saying that i have to agree with everyone here. a gun is a gun no matter who's holding it the same gun fired by 15 diffrent people into simalar blocks of ballistic gel will all do around the same damage, depending on the ammo qulaity, the atmospheric pressure and such (dense humid air may not appear to have much effect but over long ranges it starts to take noticable effect when compaired to dry air).
on the other hand primitive weapons depend on various factors. for example a bow fired by 15 diffrent people will have diffrent effects depending on the weight of the arrow, type of arrow head (broad, point, foilcloth, blunts) and the sharpness of the arrow, the smmothness of the shaft, the flights, the user's skill with the bow. all this on top of atmostpheric conditions. I can put 10 arrows into a single target and half may stop dead in the target, one or two may pass through and the rest could bounce off (depending on the hardness of the target used).
same with swords. in my years in aikido and other martial arts. I've seen people who try to swing a katana like a baseball bat and wonder why it doesn't do anything. while those who know how to swing it cut clean through the target (usually a rolled straw mat). then you have broad swords, axes and pole arms which rely more on brute strength than skill to do damage. so some weedy little guy may be able to crack a bone in your arm with a broad sword while someone who is built like an olympic bodybuilder may be able to cleave your arm off. so bottom line is melee weapons come down mostly to brute force and some skill (depending on the weapon), while a gun can only do the damage the ammo allows it to do. (just get two blocks of balistic gel and shoot one with a FMJ found and one with a hydroshock hollow point round and see the diffrence)
Oh, I have long been a fan of stating generic classes of guns such as ServicePistol, LargePistol, HeavyRifle etc for just that reason.
Are there any optional rules for that? It would be a WHOLE lot easier.
While that was just fleshing out the other techs, it could get some quick subdivision balanced with ranges and weights and such
One could establish a game balnce strategy by first figuring out how to manipulate a future gun, one completely independant of existing model hype. Take the PLasma Pistol. There is only one, THE plasmapistol. It is just itching for getting scaled to the other nominal pistol classes, and can be even further subdivided in a logiocal & balanced way. Easy because we dont have guys with their favorite brand in their gunsafe saying we didnt Uber up their gun enough.
After we decide on a balanced way to deal with subclasses of PLasmaPistol, wd just apply that algorithm to Lasers, Fusion, and even Firearms, so we can have guns classes based on balance rather than existing brands. How do we stat a 50BMG? The better way is to ask, is the 50bmg a HeavyRifle or AMR class weapon, and use the generic stats for fictional generic AMRs.
Call it whatever you want, but it gets the generic stats
I see one problem, though. Regardless of settings, weapon damage has to be calibrated to how much damage PCs can take, so weapons from the future, which should logically be more effective, have to, de facto, do athe same amount of damage as weapons of the present, unless there are some factors in d20F that I'm unaware of.
Technically yes, in game most pistol rounds deal 2d6, though acording to the offical line this is to prevent all players from walking around with super guns that deal insanely high damage. However most of these rounds are slieghtly differnt and a comprahinsive rules list would include many die types as well as plus and minus values. for instance I've always thought that .45acp should be treated as a natural hollow point from weapons locker (+1 damage, -1 attack against armored targets), and that rounds designed to give performance comperable to a .357 magnum should have a bonus to damage (say +1) but reduce their massive damage threat by 1 or maybe 2 if you use a save is based on damage system to demonstraite the fact that they are overpenetrators.
Back to the original topic. While few of us on the boards can claim to be experts on Medievial weponry, there have been over the years a wealth of studies as to the effectiveness of ancient arms. For instance it is well established that chainmail will stop many low velocity projectiles at medium to long range but that they will punch thru it at close range, it would also turn aside the merriad of weapons that blended together to become the DnD/d20mod longword, as well as hatchets, however two handed aswords and heavy axes would tear right thru it, and a good heavy mase or club while not good for damaging the chainmail, could easily break limbs and cause other forms of severe blunt force trauma.
I'v eprobably had more experience with swords, bows and other primitive weapons than with modern firearms (fired a few guns but they're not really my thing. they lack the skill of older weapons)
but saying that i have to agree with everyone here. a gun is a gun no matter who's holding it the same gun fired by 15 diffrent people into simalar blocks of ballistic gel will all do around the same damage, depending on the ammo qulaity, the atmospheric pressure and such (dense humid air may not appear to have much effect but over long ranges it starts to take noticable effect when compaired to dry air).[/Qute]
You've never seen Gang banger wannabes trying to teach their bimbo girlfriends to shoot have you? you do have a point however, to equally competent shooters equipped with similar firearms should acheive similar r esults.on the other hand primitive weapons depend on various factors. for example a bow fired by 15 diffrent people will have diffrent effects depending on the weight of the arrow, type of arrow head (broad, point, foilcloth, blunts) and the sharpness of the arrow, the smmothness of the shaft, the flights, the user's skill with the bow. all this on top of atmostpheric conditions. I can put 10 arrows into a single target and half may stop dead in the target, one or two may pass through and the rest could bounce off (depending on the hardness of the target used).
They tryed addressing that in DnD's arms and equipment manual somewhat, with differnt arrow types, and of course by including rules that take the weilder's sterngth score into account.same with swords. in my years in aikido and other martial arts. I've seen people who try to swing a katana like a baseball bat and wonder why it doesn't do anything. while those who know how to swing it cut clean through the target (usually a rolled straw mat). then you have broad swords, axes and pole arms which rely more on brute strength than skill to do damage. so some weedy little guy may be able to crack a bone in your arm with a broad sword while someone who is built like an olympic bodybuilder may be able to cleave your arm off.
Still that more comes down to the concept of weapon proficancies. Obviously your example of the baseball bat approch would be people that at best possessed only simple weapons proficancy (and I've seen people that shouldn't even have that) or perhaps Simple and Archaic Weapons proficancies, (Katanas are exotic in modern after all)so bottom line is melee weapons come down mostly to brute force and some skill (depending on the weapon), while a gun can only do the damage the ammo allows it to do. (just get two blocks of balistic gel and shoot one with a FMJ found and one with a hydroshock hollow point round and see the diffrence)
Here I must completely yeild to you.
You've never seen Gang banger wannabes trying to teach their bimbo girlfriends to shoot have you?
But that is a matter of hitting, not how much damage the gun dows in their hands. Just because they have a -3BAB doesnt mean that when they need a 18 to hit & roll 19 they do less damage than a +10BAB Marksman making his roll by 1. They both scored a 'made it by one' hit, and the gun delivers the same power for both... exactly the same power, every time.
Professional Baseball pitchers can not deliver +/-1mph for 10 fastballs in the strike zone a row. Under test conditions the throw power varies, and not just 1 or 2 mph. Guns dont care about fatigue, rain, divorce lawyers, crowdnoise, I just swallowed a bug,... the slug will leave the barrel at 875fps, always.
We cant really say how much damage a longsword does when it hits a head, because we have no idea how hard it really was swung for any given attack, even by the same guy in the same fight.
The OP was noticing we talk the gun data a lot vs the D&D side of the boards, well, I say that is because it has more fixed data than swordplay.
In that case, I still think that the ultimate solution is to have generic guns, just like generic swords and such. If you shift the mechanic away from realism, I think this wouldn't be as much of a problem.
But that is a matter of hitting, not how much damage the gun dows in their hands. Just because they have a -3BAB doesnt mean that when they need a 18 to hit & roll 19 they do less damage than a +10BAB Marksman making his roll by 1. They both scored a 'made it by one' hit, and the gun delivers the same power for both... exactly the same power, every time.
Professional Baseball pitchers can not deliver +/-1mph for 10 fastballs in the strike zone a row. Under test conditions the throw power varies, and not just 1 or 2 mph. Guns dont care about fatigue, rain, divorce lawyers, crowdnoise, I just swallowed a bug,... the slug will leave the barrel at 875fps, always.
True but, the point I was trying to make about firearms is that like everything else the shooter's skill is still important. if you're attack bonus is low or you lack the appropraite proficancy, be it gun, sword, bow or what have you, you just won't hit as often, and may find yourself trusting to a lucky roll. However you do have a point, any form of melee combat is more dependant on varaibles than shooting.
Ah, I see. That does make sense, from a realism perspective.
In that case, I still think that the ultimate solution is to have generic guns, just like generic swords and such. If you shift the mechanic away from realism, I think this wouldn't be as much of a problem.
I don't know, generic weapons would work but, then it would be like the blaster/slugthrower list in the original Starwars d20 or the list of modern and futuristic weapons in the DMG. Not saying I think that is bad, just that it doesn't work for me in a modern setting. Now in a more futuristic setting I could see it (it is what you get in Future and Future tech after all).
Nobody hunts deer with 9mm, but 357mag does ok... but we already have the game so coarse & generic that taking a 357 with bear slugs dont mean anything more hurtfull than a 9mm.
Without the generic nominal gun classes, we already have a 9mm = 357sig = 357mag = 10mm. It should clue folks in that the 10mm breaks gun frames made for 9/45.... it is indeed that powerful but inflicts no more harm due to the existing coarseness.
2d4 20' Light Pistol
2d6 30' Service Pistol
2d8 40' Heavy pistol
Is that really so far from what we have now?
Does it matter if the mook is carrying a glock or a ruger, if its a SW459 or a SigSewer220? Call it what you like, but its a Service Pistol <12mag>
Just make the simple scale for ammo <8/12/15/20 magazine +0/+1/+2/+3 PDC> and range < -5/0/+5/+10 : -1/+0/+1/+2PDC> if you want to customize or whatnot. Use thatscale for Firearm Pistols, Rifles, LasersPistols, CryoAMR, Disintegrator Carbine... whatever - its generic.
No pressure. Just saying, it'd be great.
so I can put the Details & Options rules onto that Nominal GunClass & Technolgy chart I put up earlier... Probably get it up before noon.
One thing I saw last post was the PDCs may need some comunity input before putting the ver1.0 to ink. We can chat that up tomorrow afternoon
oh, and you guys know I cant spell worth a hoot, so let me know if I blow it on something in the table.
.45(all) .44special: 2d6+1 -1 attack vs. armor
.357mag, .357Sig: 2d6+1 reduce Massive damage save to 14 (-2 to math for variable)
.357Grizzly/Max 2d6+2 As mag/Sig plus -1atk vs. armor
.40S&W, 9mm, .38Special: 2d6
5.7mm, 4.6mm: 2d6-1 +1atk vs. Armor
.45Magnum 2d8 ----------------------
.38 2d6-1
.327magnum 2d4+1 as .357 mag
uh, I dont get the system you use to determin the +/- MDS or +/1 vs Armor
You gave the 9mm 2d6, but give the 357Sig 2d6+1 .... but the more damaging round than 9mm has an easier to make MAS?
9mm has no adjustment for armor, nor did you give 357 an armor adjust,
but if you speed the same slug up to 357Max it is less effective vs armor?
And as the gun gets more powerful, it maintains less MAS lethality than 9mm?
How is the .38special a better armor puncher than 357sig/357MAX?
And how the heck is the exact same bullet from a .38 better at MAS than when it comes out almost twice as fast from a 357Griz/357Max? Folks are more likely to remain standing from the hand cannon than the snubby38?
How is a 9mm FMJ slug less effective against armor when it is 1350fps from a 357Sig, than 1100 from a 9mm?
Lets apply the Faster is Badder you've been using to 5.7FN
OOOOOOOhh, I see, for the 5.7 fast makes it punch armor better.
But the 357Sig that is 30% faster than 9mm with the same bullet is worse against armor.
Let me try it in a table, and we can see how they fit
.35" FMJ 125gr @ 1000 (9x19)
.35" FMJ 125gr @ 1350 (Sig)
.35" FMJ 125gr @ 1500 (357m & 9wmag 9x30 )
.35" TMJ 200gr @ 1675 (357max ... yes, 200gr going faster than 357m 125gr
so if we take a box of .355" 125gr FMJ, and load them into these brasses, and get these speeds... the faster the slug goes the worse you gave it against armor. This is not AP ammo, its BALL standard. If you would like to apply HollowPoint traits to these magnums, that would make the damage insane, cause as you know a 125HP at over 1400fps can explode itself... which is exasperated by speeding it up to 1500,1600 or more from a Max
I was totally totally army back in 80's
uh, I dont get the system you use to determin the +/- MDS or +/1 vs Armor
You gave the 9mm 2d6, but give the 357Sig 2d6+1 .... but the more damaging round than 9mm has an easier to make MAS?
9mm has no adjustment for armor, nor did you give 357 an armor adjust,
but if you speed the same slug up to 357Max it is less effective vs armor?
And as the gun gets more powerful, it maintains less MAS lethality than 9mm?
How is the .38special a better armor puncher than 357sig/357MAX?
And how the heck is the exact same bullet from a .38 better at MAS than when it comes out almost twice as fast from a 357Griz/357Max? Folks are more likely to remain standing from the hand cannon than the snubby38?
How is a 9mm FMJ slug less effective against armor when it is 1350fps from a 357Sig, than 1100 from a 9mm?
Lets apply the Faster is Badder you've been using to 5.7FN
OOOOOOOhh, I see, for the 5.7 fast makes it punch armor better.
But the 357Sig that is 30% faster than 9mm with the same bullet is worse against armor.
Let me try it in a table, and we can see how they fit
.35" FMJ 125gr @ 1000 (9x19)
.35" FMJ 125gr @ 1350 (Sig)
.35" FMJ 125gr @ 1500 (357m & 9wmag 9x30 )
.35" TMJ 200gr @ 1675 (357max ... yes, 200gr going faster than 357m 125gr
so if we take a bos of .355" 125gr FMJ, and load them into these brasses, and get these speeds... the faster the slug goes the worse you gave it against armor. This is not AP ammo, its BALL standard. If you would like to apply HollowPoint traits to these magnums, that would make the damage insane, cause as you know a 125HP at over 1400fps can explode itself... which is exasperated by speeding it up to 1500,1600 or more from a Max
The +/-1 vs armor is based on the hollow point/ armor piercing traits listed in weapons Locker.
as to the Massive damage, I'll try an answer but, explinations aren't my strong point. The reduced Mas save on the Mag and Sig are really the best way I could come up with to represent the concept of an over penetrator, the round becomes more damaging than other similar sized rounds but the odds of beating massive damage are better. As to the .357Sig being worse against armor than the 4.6 or 5.7 I can see why you would think that. However in my opinon in game at least under the chart I created, I would take the Sig over the 5.7 (unless the 5.7's were loaded in a P90), while it is true that the 5.7 will result in a better chance of a hit the -1damage means that the best noncritical hit damage would be 11 vs 13 for the Sig, minimum would be 1 vs. the Sig's 3, and average would be5 vs the Sig's 8. So even if the target shakes of the Massive damage save a little easier, the target is still in worse shape than the guy shot with a pistol loaded with 5.7's.
As for the .357Max I was trying to maintain the ever delicate balance of Game Mechanics and realism. The .357max is a heavier more powerful round than the .357mag or Sig and so with an eye towards balance I added the Hollow point template from WL the the altered Magnum rules. Making the Max a high damag over penetrator capable of knocking down most targets wether they save or not, though they have slightly better odds of surviving in armor. On that note however I admit I'm not happy with the 10mm. Nothing I think of feels right. I considered jus adding the Glaser template from WL, but that didn't seem quite right. I also considered bulking it up to 2d8 and penilizing attack rolls for weapons that size were less than medium. I think I will drop the weaker mas from the Max though I'm not sure how to keep it balanced, any ideas?
Honestly, if Modern had done that, I wouldn't care as much. If they just had 'service pistol' deal 2d6 damage, hold 15 rounds in a box magazine, and shoot 30' for range increments, that would be fine.
But they don't, and that's where the illogical stats chafe me. Anyone who knows anything about terminal ballistics knows that a little 31-grain 5.7mm slug going 2300FPS won't cause much of a wound cavity, nor will it have the momentum to penetrate deeply in tissue. All ballistics testing to date has proven this. And yet, per the core rules, this little over-hyped .22 Magnum deals more damage than a 2-3/4" 12-gauge 1oz slug! Someone was smoking some serious stuff when they brainstormed these stats.
Yeah thats why I bring the damage value for the 5.7 into line with the 4.6. Ofcourse 5.7 isn't the only over powered .22 what about the Russian Olymic compation turned Sniper rifle? it's 2d8 as well.
Well, I'd like if you took this as advice rather than me just being a jerk,
but ...
When you stat guns, dont include ammo type numbers until the players load that ammo into the gun.
The 357Max can have anything from 110gr super exploder hollowpoints, to 200gr bear slugs, to AP (m39b) at ludicrus speed. Penetration is 100% dependant on the ammo you select. You will not get over penetration with a 88gr or 110gr HP, it will blow a crater in the front of someone you can stick a grapefruit in. For this reason we stat guns using a baseline fmj/tmj that players can modify with ammo type.
Of course there is overpenetration in the RAW, they gave the 50BMG just 2d12... which could be about right. The 50 BMG will do that 2d12 to the guy, and then do another 10-30 points of damage to the APC behind the guy. I just made reference to this in the d20GunTalk thread, Prisoners/Bodies make terrible Supplemental APC Armor because the 50BMG goes right thru them like they werent there
We used to have the joke,
'A supercharged 4 cylinder is as good as a V8',
but they never compare thet to a Supercharged V8 for some reason.
First stat them with FMJ/TMJ.
Plenty of exit wounds with 9mm ball.
----------
But this is just like the OP topic alluded to.
We know execatly what rounds penetrate a level IIIa vest, independant of the shooter being a little girl or troll.
Can a steel 9mm @ 1800fps punch a level IIIa? Yes.
Can a Ginsu stab by some guy? .... uh... maybe, who's the guy & how is he feeling at the moment.
And that is where my attempt at balancing stopping power and game balance comes in. Like Wizards, I didn't want everyone to just have the same weapon. Of course to some degree the ingame mechnics can solve that. For instance if propperly stated, the .50AE Desert Eagle should have a maximum ammo capasity of 6+1. and as a medium-sized hand cannon, it is harder to dual wield than the older 1911 which carries one more round, or any of the various modern 9mm's with capasities of 12+1 or better.
And so I began tinkering. The defining characteristic of most .45 styles is that relativly ,speeking anyway, they are slow, heavy and hard hitting. and so they became natural hollow points for the rules I was creating. The perfect choise for the PC that found himself against unarmord opponetes or even lightly armored ones. then came 4.6 and 5.7, tiney ultra high velocity rounds that were designed with peircing armor as they're purpose. So naturally they recieved the armor-piercing template (all though I could probibly drop them to 2d4 and give them the armor piercing template from UA, +2 against armor no penilty). And then came the .357 family. Now my dad is an ex-cop (I know, I know, there's no such think as an ex-cop, or Ex-Marine, or ex-anyone that held a job like that) but, I digress. Long story short is old .357 Trooper is now my.357 Trooper, and I heard all about the stopping power of the magnum, it will kill ya but, not slow you down, and about the issuing of hollow points because soft points will go right thru an unarmored target and potientaly thru an inocent bystander. Rather than focus on the go clean thru aspect of the .357mag IE "Well congradulations you scored a crit on the thug, killing him instantly, now roll on this devaition chart to see which where you killed the cop or the little kid as well." I mean I'm pretty cold but, that didn't seem fair. So instead I desided to focus on the over penetrator aspect, IE: "Your shot tore clear thru the charging Orc most likely damaging several internal organs. but it still lurches forward a few more steps before going down." I left the .40S&W, 9mm and .38special alone to serve as the basic just all round ammo types for the 2d6. and the basic .38 (Which to the bet of my knowledgeonly appears in past.) became 2d6-1 because I have never heard of the common.38 any refernace to the .38 being a powerful cartidge. And as for the 10mm, Their have been times where I just wanted to say, "Okay this Modern campaign is set in a parrellel Universe, everything is the same execpt that the 10mil never came into being, and .40S&W was dubbed "forty short and weak" because it didn't have the knock down power of .45 auto" and I'm only half Joking.
ahhhhh
Well, I'd like if you took this as advice rather than me just being a jerk,
but ...
When you stat guns, dont include ammo type numbers until the players load that ammo into the gun.
The 357Max can have anything from 110gr super exploder hollowpoints, to 200gr bear slugs, to AP (m39b) at ludicrus speed. Penetration is 100% dependant on the ammo you select. You will not get over penetration with a 88gr or 110gr HP, it will blow a crater in the front of someone you can stick a grapefruit in. For this reason we stat guns using a baseline fmj/tmj that players can modify with ammo type.
Of course there is overpenetration in the RAW, they gave the 50BMG just 2d12... which could be about right. The 50 BMG will do that 2d12 to the guy, and then do another 10-30 points of damage to the APC behind the guy. I just made reference to this in the d20GunTalk thread, Prisoners/Bodies make terrible Supplemental APC Armor because the 50BMG goes right thru them like they werent there
We used to have the joke,
'A supercharged 4 cylinder is as good as a V8',
but they never compare thet to a Supercharged V8 for some reason.
First stat them with FMJ/TMJ.
Plenty of exit wounds with 9mm ball.
----------
But this is just like the OP topic alluded to.
We know execatly what rounds penetrate a level IIIa vest, independant of the shooter being a little girl or troll.
Can a steel 9mm @ 1800fps punch a level IIIa? Yes.
Can a Ginsu stab by some guy? .... uh... maybe, who's the guy & how is he feeling at the moment.
Trust in none of this exchange have I thought anything you said was you being a Jerk. Actually this is one of the first serious exchanges I've had on the boards in just about ever. I'll admit that applying natural templates to rounds was probibly hot the wisest course of action, expecially since I never intended to dis allow futher application of templates to ammunition. However short of completely rewriting the rule, which I'm not good at, I can juggle some prereq's and rule effects to keep the spirit of a feat, spell or weapon, or once in awhile a whole class as I transfer it from its home d20 to one of mine, but thats about it.
I started down one path, just adding rules to 7 basic classes of gun. But then I started wondering if he wanted a ruleset or a shopping list, so I started making another version as a shopping list of classes & subtypes.
Right now, I'm trying to keep close to RAW numbers, I bolded the RAW type gun Ramage & Range for the guntype they gave in Future. Once the list if fleshed out we can make versions based on the Sqrll101 caliber damage chart numbers.
7 Classes & Rules
Work in progress. So far I made rules for
-- A new size modifier, "*" that allows it to be 'used' as next smaller size with a -4ToHit.. I did that so the MagnumPistol(Large*) & Magnum Rifle(Huge*) could be used one-handed or without bippod
-- ROF customizing, Ammo Cap, Range
-- A new size modifier, "*" that allows it to be 'used' as next smaller size with a -4ToHit.. I did that so the MagnumPistol(Large*) & Magnum Rifle(Huge*) could be used one-handed or without bippod
-- ROF customizing, Ammo Cap, Range
You've never seen Gang banger wannabes trying to teach their bimbo girlfriends to shoot have you? you do have a point however, to equally competent shooters equipped with similar firearms should acheive similar r esults.
luckly over here we don't have gang bangers, we have chavs but they're usually to dumb to know how to get their hands on anything more powerful than a pea shooter air rifle. (most guns are illegal here, or rather highly restricted requiring specialist licences, gun club membership and regular checks by the police) luckly where I live to get your hands on a gun you either have to pass 100's of rules, regulations and tests or know who to ask (which is not many people)
but back to the topic. wheather it's a sniper or a dumb blonde bimbo (no offence to blondes) the gun will do the same damage to the target hit, the only diffrence is that the sniper would know where to hit while the bimbo won't (unless said bimbo is very lucky).
for example you give someone a gun and tell them to kill someone and they will either aim for the head (a hard target) or the chest (a larger target but with a smaller chance of an instant kill) and just shoot wildly maybe hitting the target several times before killing them, while a sniper would aim for the base of the skull, between the shoulder blades or the centre of the chest striking at the vital areas killing the taget instantly.
Autofire, area attack. Damage potential is the same for Sniper & Soccermom with a gun. But with a bunch of Slingers volleyfire an area, each slug has different potential damage by each slinger physique & morale (Super Dew Sling Team Go!!!)
So the discussion of damage is more location based than weapon user, where the user can only influence hit location with guns but the user affects power as well as location with melee. And that is where the fanboy subjectiveness arguements come in (like ChuckNorris-ism or Katana/5.7 hype) more in D&D than Modern.
Play a few sessions of Red Book or full rules Pheonix Command, and the subjectiveness drops right out. RPG combat rules by engineers for engineers.
Too bad they lacked character fluff enough to sell well.It looks like, right now, you've basically got the guns divided by a very rough eyeball of their damage potential. That makes a lot of sense. But I have one question, how will that affect/relate to the feats? Right now, all we have is "Personal" and "Exotic." Now, I've never touched a gun and only ever seen them on TV/in movies. From what I can see, firing a little .22 revoler would require a very different skill-set than would an M-60. And yet, they're both under the "personal" firearms proficiency (see this table).
So, is there a better way to divide them up? It seems to me that hand-guns would be a different matter than machine guns, and that especially big machine guns (like M-60s) would be "exotic," considering the special training that I'd have to imagine goes into firing one with any accuracy. All that being said, I"ve never touched a gun, so I'll take your word for it!
Finally, when you/I/we finally write this up, it would be great to list, in the textual description of every generic sub-type, what guns it might include, just to give people an idea of what kinds of things they can carry.
Exotic is a tough one. With just 1 feat, MartialWeapons, a D&D guy gets swords, axes, ploearms... even bows. Just how alien does a weapon need to be before it is considered Exotic? If I loaded a m60 & hand it to a guy that has only shot 22 rifles, the ole Rearsight-Frontsight-SqueezeDontPull will work just fine.
Genericly, what game mechanic makes a gun exotic? Having a feature beyond its class? Like a really long range pistol or higher damage than the rest of its class? How does being Exotic make the numbers different?
This meshes well with the D&D Exotic rules, since they generally encompass weapons that deal more damage than others of their general size category. Anyone can learn to shoot a .44 Mag fairly easily. Learning to shoot a .460 S&W or one of Hamilton Bowen's pocket-sized .50AE revolvers takes some extra practice.
but should I continue the Shopping List or the Option/Rules style of table?
All I'm saying is that when we construct equipment tables, we should be mindful of feats, as well.
Do we want to change the feats? I don't know! I've never touched a gun in my life and I hope I never have to. But in your experience, do hand guns require a genuinely different skill set than machine guns, in the same way that handling a sword without slicing your toes off (martial proficiency) is very different than beating on someone with a club (simple proficiency)?
Alternatively, how does the game-balance work out if we have two feats for guns as well as two for melee (simple/martial, hand gun/machine gun)?
I'm kinda thinking out loud, here.
Just how alien does a weapon need to be before it is considered Exotic?
Dude, you tell me! Are there funky, weird guns out there that require a whole different way of holding/handling them?
Genericly, what game mechanic makes a gun exotic?
Usually, it's some extra ability that the weapon has. So the Bastard sword allows both one- and two-handed grip. The whip and the chain have different kinds of reach (although I still think that the whip gets screwed, but that's just me). A lot of the "exotic" weapons are just unusually shaped, like a kama (although in that case, I suspect they're listed as "exotic" because they're not European in origin). So the question to ask yourself is, basically, is it worth a whole feat to get some kind of special use out of a particular gun?
Oh! I just realised, Exotic Firearms would be specific guns with specific features! They'd have to be, really. So, unless you can think of guns like that, which really special, finicky features, then I'd say don't worry about it.
By adding Exotic to any gun (+4PDC) you may boost performance by +1DieSize, or +50% Range, or +1 ToHit(stacks with MW), or +2 SlightOfHand, or May be used 1 handed -4ToHit
Used as 1 size smaller with a -4.... its not exotic to get a 1handed 9mm pistol. Ala BastardSword, but there are the big rifles that straddle the need for a bipod or not... and lets not forget the bulpup m14 / compact AR / SMG. Large, use twohanded to hit what you aim at, or get heroic with it 1 handed.
dunno, maybe/maybe not with the 'As 1 Size Smaller'
would need to stop Dreadnaught abuse in text too.
If you wanted tongue-in-cheek feats for using bigger and bigger guns one-handed, I think that'd be fine in a certain kind of game. I take action movies to be the test, here, not reality, but that's my chosen game-style.
If I understand you correctly, you're talking about using hand guns (and only hand guns) one-handed, which people do in movies all the time, whereas proper technique is to hold them two-handed.
If you wanted tongue-in-cheek feats for using bigger and bigger guns one-handed, I think that'd be fine in a certain kind of game. I take action movies to be the test, here, not reality, but that's my chosen game-style.
Well dual weilding big weapons is also a big part of some movies and the movies are really what Mod is about. I think thats why they invented the Dreadnaught advanced class.
Most SMGs are large, most are suposed to be fired 2handed. It is exotic to shoot 2handed SMGs one handed. Same goes for carbines, and it is just freakish to shoot m14/FAL/G3 one handed.
But how much of this is the weapon (BastardSword) vs how much is shooter ability (mp5)? With the sword, anyone can use it 1handed, with less effect. With the Large SMG, nobody can use it 1handed (RAW ).
But we cant readily say medium SMGs are exotic just to fit a clean rule to it like bastardswords. This ties in to the topic of the thread: We know a 9mm will do 2d6 if you shoot it 1 or 2 handed. We cant grant more damage to the Exotic Bastard-SMG that anyone can use 1 handed but feat guys do more damage.
What makes a gun exotic?
What exotic guns are there, that are exotic for reasons other than odd shape.
But I'm still curious if there are weapons, maybe military-specific ones, that we might call "exotic" because they require some kind of unique skill to use and/or fire...?
edit: I would say that grenade launchers and other arcing weapons would be exotic, as for full effect, you would need to know the arc. Rocket launchers too, partially because with the newer ones, you have the lock-on and electronic stuff, partially due to travel time, and partially because you really don't want to accidentally hit someone with the backblast. I just read a book yesterday, a guy in training learning how to use anti-tank weapons forgot about the backblast and burnt his legs when he twisted in prone trying to keep the laser on the drone. He is careful not to do something like that again.
But the Bastardsword is the exotic weapon that does that, you cant use your Exotic Longsword Feat on longswords to change them to Light for TWF, nor can you use the Exotic Greatsword Feat to change that one.
This would parallel to the SMG/Carbines that 'should' be usable one handed to less effect. RAW says MP5 is Large, so it absolutely unusable 1 handed. Ever.
So what should be, is there should be lower stats for large SMG/Carbines 1 handed that the Exotic feat can overcome... Same with the Huge magnum rifles used without pod
maybe;)
Do we need AR/SMG/Pistol exotic variants at all?
Should it give a benefit to actions everyone can do , or enable action others cant . But on the benefit side, we run into the fixed damage by caliber problem.
Using a big gun with dual-wielding has the disadvantage of taking a -4 penalty rather than a -2,
Actually, that is when using less small guns, not big guns.
Using big guns(large+) with TWF is no possible. Period.
What is the numerical advantage of the MP5k over Mac10 that would make someone desire to use it in TWF? They made the MP5k a longarm, despite being Medium, just to require 2hands... despite it being a MP5 (large) 'with Compact gadget on it' to make it a size smaller.
This is some of the reason we need Generic Guns.
So we can make a ruleset that uses balance rather than names. How do we sell the MP5k "All the goodness of a Mac, but no way to TWF... for safety???" The balancing trade of is you get penalties offset by more penalties.
In a Generic setup, without names, we could get the BastardSMG that has stats for 1 AND 2 hand use, and the Exotic BastardSMG feat lets you use the 2handed stats with one hand. But other than Range, how can we reduce the numbers for 1handed use? Cannot DoubleTap? Autofire & Burst -4?
We could see the same for huge sized "Exotic Bastard" MG/AMR to be used without Support.
What is the numerical advantage of the MP5k over Mac10 that would make someone desire to use it in TWF? They made the MP5k a longarm, despite being Medium, just to require 2hands... despite it being a MP5 (large) 'with Compact gadget on it' to make it a size smaller.... "All the goodness of a Mac, but no way to TWF... for safety???"
Because if you were a real operator, you would be able to dual-wield them. Don't doubt us, we are HK!
Not sure what else to change, we could change range, like you said, you could make reloads take more time.