After reading about oldschool body armour (such as the soviet breastplates of WW2) and AntiTank weapons, what would you say about a simple houserule where weapons would take a cumulative -1 to damage per two range increments? That way, a 9mm bullet from an MP5 would be less lethal at 300 feet (2d6-3 damage = average damage 4) than at point blank. I just keep seeing "the weapon could defeat 40mm armour at ranges up to 100 meters" and "the armour was effective against 9mm MP40 at 100-125 meters."
This rule is of course best coupled with Armour as Damage Reduction.
What do you think?
I believe Johannixx uses a rule that drops the DieSize past 5RI
If you do something along these lines, be sure to check how it interacts/relates to Shotguns losing damage too.
I guess drop 1die after 5 RI would work too. Anyone has any experience in game with this?
Yeah, I use shotguns lose 2 damage per RI, so that should be balanced already.
It's a documented fact that weapons lose velocity and stopping power at long ranges, which can be mitigated by bullet weight and design, but is still a factor regardless. The most obvious example of this phenomenon is the tendency of M855 5.56x45mm NATO ball to fail to tumble and fragment once it drops below 2700 fps or so. For a 20"-bbl M16A2, this occurs around 300 yards. For a 14.5"-bbl M4, it occurs around 75 yards. 10" and smaller barrels never even make it to the necessary fragmentation velocity, which is why they're pretty much only useful as CQB weapons. Compared to a real rifle, they suck. Compared to a pistol-caliber subgun, they rock.
If you want a more granular system, you can have the damage drop by 1 after the 3rd, 6th and 9th range increments. That still puts 99% of your gunfights at full damage, since Modern (at least in my experience) rarely has scenarios with ranges more than 20 yards (hard to get a battlemap that big!).
Several years ago, I was shooting bowling pins up around Prescott, AZ, with some friends. The pins were approximately 200 yards away, give or take. They all had rifles, while I had only my 1911 pistol. The guy with a .308 was hitting the pins and knocking them over with considerable authority, while the guy with a 5.56mm was gently pushing them over. On a whim, I decided to try shooting them with my 1911. It took me two rounds to establish holdover at that distance, then the next seven rounds to actually hit a pin. It knocked over with as much authority as the .308 at that range. I was rather shocked and impressed. Obviously the .308 is a far more deadly round at any distance than the .45, but the difference between the .45 and the 5.56mm was striking.
Think to youreselves how far a 308 can travel if you tried to lob it as far as you can. General bullet speed of 2500-3000fps? With a general bullet shape of a FMJ. The similar speed & shape of a 16" navalgun.... but the navalgun has a lot more weight which gives a lot more momentum.... which gives a lot more energy retention over distance.
Our combat often starts at several hundred yards, but often ends with the PCs trying to close in on the enemy because their tired of the RI penalties.
Your feat with the M1911 sounds impressive. But this comes from a guy who's best experience with firearms is 10 7.62 shots from a G3 at A5sized targets 50 yards away as a 15year old (I did put 'em all on target though - best shooter among the 50 other guys).
When you go to the range, spend $3 on a reem of copy paper and you have 500 targets for 5-30 round groups. If you can hit the sheet of paper, you can hit a badguy.
"Hitting" and "doing damage" are only abstracted from each other for game purposes (and boy howdy would I like to have a way to combine them!). In d20 "hitting" means "doing damage" not "making contact," except for Touch Attacks, which are the exception that proves the rule. So taking a -2 per range increment effectively means that you'll do no damage, on average, the further you are from your target.
However, that's an all-or-nothing approach. You can still "hit" someone (i.e., do damage) from 10 increments if you roll a 20, which has always struck me as stupid. So I would say that the thing to do is replace the -2 to hit per increment with a -X to damage per increment (whatever number is appropriate). A damage penalty means that even if you do "hit" at extremely long ranges, it's basically meaningless.
The only problem with that is that any attack that hits does 1HP, regardless of damage penalties, so that rule could be spugged by working up some kind of "touch-based" ballistic attack (with magic, I'm sure you could do that), but if you're not in a game where that kind of stuff is possible, then the damage penalty should work all on its own.
Well, a simple way would be to use Armour as Damage Reduction (or AaDR as we pronounce it), and take -1 to hit & damage for every RI. This works best if your weapons deal 3dx, because if not, 2dx -1 per RI is going down pretty fast.
What we use in our campaign would allow for that. AaDR (entirely! no Defense bonus from armour at all); 3dx firearm damage; and CyberDave's Penetration rules (as well as other, numerous houserules).
The 2d10 guns lose only 5%potential while the 2d6 guns lose 8%, and it is agian silly to say the 16" Cannon is 20d20 +50d6Fire -6points for going 23000 of its 40000 yards.
For the big slug, it can it retains 80% of its energy when used to the limit of its flat firing role.... shots lofted less than 5degrees. That is the role we are seeing with the 10RI d20RAW guns. The slugs are shot at ranges are still horizontal direct fire. At the end of the 10RI, it is still a basicly horizontal path. That tells me it should still have 80% of its velocity.
The other shot to consider is the Quigley.
Thump out a big enough slug and a moderate speed in a lofted path, and it will be "accellerating" as it comes back down.
If a 2d10 gun like the 444 or 45-70 slow down to half their speed, it is still a 44mag at point blank. This is running into the nonlinear scale that CyberDave had to deal with. For a given slug weight to gain a die size, it has to have over 3x or 4x the energy. So if you slow a 2000fps 300gr (2d10) down to just 1100, you get a 44mag equivelant.
As for 16" navalguns, I don't think they loose enough velocity anyway - and I guess they rely as much on the explosion if not more. Explosives shouldn't be affected by range the same way (remember the "shellin' folks is fun" rules we/you made up?).
Alright, so since rifles retain their velocity, how about we make some categories?
Like rifle rounds lose 1 damage every 3 RI.
Pistol rounds lose 1 damage every 1 or 2 RI.
Heavy rounds (.45, etc) lose 1 die after 5 RI.
etc...?
"Hitting" and "doing damage" are only abstracted from each other for game purposes (and boy howdy would I like to have a way to combine them!). In d20 "hitting" means "doing damage" not "making contact," except for Touch Attacks, which are the exception that proves the rule. So taking a -2 per range increment effectively means that you'll do no damage, on average, the further you are from your target.
This again? Touch attacks need to hit the AC without armor, normal attacks need to hit the AC with armor. If near misses are hits, why would armor matter for them? Making contact with what the target is wearing isn't enough except for touch attacks, you have to get through what he is wearing, or hit where it isn't covering.
Since we are on the topic of armor, there is something I have been wondering about. Is there actually AP ammo for pistols? I don't mean teflon-coated bullets for less wear on barrels, which ends up getting in a movie as the reason for a bullet piercing armor, and since everyone knows hollywood is real, teflon-covered bullets get banned, I mean actual 9mm/45 bullets that will punch IIIA.
Hmmm... thinking about the heavy lobbing bullets, should there be a feat that gives you extra RIs, for the people using ladder sights or whatnot and sending them flying way out there?
Since we are on the topic of armor, there is something I have been wondering about. Is there actually AP ammo for pistols? I don't mean teflon-coated bullets for less wear on barrels, which ends up getting in a movie as the reason for a bullet piercing armor, and since everyone knows hollywood is real, teflon-covered bullets get banned, I mean actual 9mm/45 bullets that will punch IIIA.
Yes, there are AP pistol bullets, like the French THV rounds, but they have a lot of issues when it comes to proper feeding and reliability, plus they don't tend to do much damage to the target when they do hit, as they're sacrificing damage potential for penetration, which is something a rifle doesn't have to do as much.
Like using your .45 in an indirect fire configuration? Is that possible/effective?
Isn't the 5.7mm armour piercing? That's why it deals 2d8. ...just kidding.
But the 5.7mm is supposed to pierce armour as well as a rifle round, but I guess it's kinda small, thus dealing little damage. I remember reading that on some official website about Fabrique Nationale.
Or you need a bullet that's both fast and slow, pointy and round, heavy and light, and wide and thin. Now that sounds like the US army requirements for their weapons. Just use the friggin' british .280... They got what the USMil needs. And they had it yesterday (60 years ago, actually).
Would steel-core pistol ammo be AP? Seems like the copper/lead would splat itself against the vest, and the steel would punch through. Not as good as a rifle round, but still better than bruising the target. Or is the steel core too large to punch through?
I wouldn't say you need a bullet that is all of those anyway, Tema. You need more than one kind of bullet, at least until we get to energy weapons, which have no drop, loss of velocity, or recoil. The idea of one round using several different loadings, bullet weights, and even calibers (using sabots) could work, though (stabbist mentioned it, don't know if he got it from someone else).
Oh, and as to why I might be focused on the ten ring (asides from competition)? All the shots in the world ain't gonna help you if you can't get a headshot on those zeds, and the shambling zombie hordes ain't gonna kill themselves.
I wouldn't say you need a bullet that is all of those anyway, Tema. You need more than one kind of bullet, at least until we get to energy weapons, which have no drop, loss of velocity, or recoil. The idea of one round using several different loadings, bullet weights, and even calibers (using sabots) could work, though (stabbist mentioned it, don't know if he got it from someone else).
Haven't you heard of the 6.8mm? The whole debate of: 7.62Nato is too big/heavy, 5.56 doesn't kill people, etc...?
Oh, and as to why I might be focused on the ten ring (asides from competition)? All the shots in the world ain't gonna help you if you can't get a headshot on those zeds, and the shambling zombie hordes ain't gonna kill themselves.
Damn right, they aren't!
I agree with Tema,
until they decide what they really want to thing to be optimised for, it is a joke.
Another option for the Damage vs Range game mechanic:
Increase the targets Armor benefit at 3rd, 6th, & 9th RI.
You could even get a mini-table for the increase based on Lt/Med/Hvy armor type. from +0/+1/+2 for light over ranges to +1/+2/+4 for heavy
I'd not bother with anything else. For starters, a lot of ranged weapons even thrown ones, or bows and arrows. should be loosing damage, but this is never factored in, and after you loose some hitpoints, your ability to deal damage in melee is impacted, but this is never factored in, etc etc.
There are just too many times when it would be logical to start altering damage, but it is unfair to select a single factor, and then start ignoring the rest.
Besides, shot placement beats range penalties in spades, yet that is basically covered in the 'random damage factor' and so the whole random damage factor is a good place to sweep all the other inconsistencies.
Further, there is a ton of weapons represented by each 'die set' A 10mm has more energy at 100 yards than a 45acp does at it's muzzle, and a 45 has a LOT more energy than a 9mm. Now I run a house rule of 38 special = 1d12, 9mm = 2d6, 40SW=2d6+1, 45acp=2d6+2, 357mag =2d8, 10mm = 2d8+1, but in general 2d6 is used to cover pretty much every handgun, so by applying your range incriment penalty, you can have a very powerful cartridge, say a 357 mag, at the spot where you drop a damage die, but in reality that round has more energy at that range than a 38 special at the muzzle, which would retain it's full dice.
Since we are on the topic of armor, there is something I have been wondering about. Is there actually AP ammo for pistols? I don't mean teflon-coated bullets for less wear on barrels, which ends up getting in a movie as the reason for a bullet piercing armor, and since everyone knows hollywood is real, teflon-covered bullets get banned, I mean actual 9mm/45 bullets that will punch IIIA.
The teflon coated thing in relation to AP wasn't that far off, they were just getting the details wrong.
As said, velocity is a key to punching through armor, low likelyhood to deform is also big help, and a "pointy end" helps a tiny bit. So, early AP ammo for handguns used steel bullets, and later lead with steel core. Steel is much lighter than lead, in some ways it is like trying to throw a pingpong ball vs a rock. Steel leaving the barrel at velocity X lost velocity much quicker than lead. Further, just slapping a steel bullet on a regular handgun case, the bullet is light enough it screams from the barrel, but exiting the barrel early means a lot of powder is still burning, so the higher velocity, even at the muzzle, while higher, wasn't high enough to make the light fast projectile have as much energy as the slower heavier projectile, even though they were both deriving their energy from exactly the same amount and type of gunpowder. So they started making bullets that had a steel core, but also steel 'heel' for lack of a better term. This steel was hard on barrels, so they were coated with teflon.
So, BECAUSE they were AP, they were coated with teflon
which is entirely different from the false idea of BECAUSE they were coated with teflon, they were AP
but a few factors caught on and really squashed handgun AP development. #1 we started getting much better at making shorty assault rifles. Why mess with a 9mm MP5 with AP 9mm ammo when you can just give them an M-4 instead? #2 a lot of this development was done in the early days of ballistic vests, when I and II were the most common, "I" was liked because it was light (and cheap) so a fair amount of handguns could go through that, IIA, wasn't yet around, and II was considered heavy, it could stop a 357 magnum using a 158 gr jsp, but not a 44 mag, and not certain types of hotloaded 9mm intended for SMGs only, in the longer barrels that most SMGs could handle. It was also pretty easy to top a 357 mag with a 124 gr fully jacketed bullet and defeat a vest, 38 super challenged vests, as did 7.62x25, a lot of these couldn't reliably get through but would do it with a few select loads and AP bullets were developed to help them do it on an more predictable basis, as well as allow 45acp and standard pressure 9mm to get through.
But this was also the driving force behind getting IIIA armor out, people realized that II wouldn't be enough protection for long, certain loads would switch in popularity simply to account for that fact (which makes sense, how many people still rely on a 158 grain softpoint/semiwadcutter from a 357 magnum?)
The interesting thing is with IIIA getting so popular, it was like everyone said 'well, don't bother now!' even though a lot of that same AP technology, if applied to 10mm and 44 mag would probably have penetrated IIIA especially when you think of the fledgling level it was at, and instead started looking at making hollowpoints better and better.
I have every confidence that a steel core 10mm or 44 mag will defeat IIIA. I suspect that a 10mm was necked down to 9mm, the way a 40SW is necked down to 9mm to create the 357 sig, would have enough velocity to penetrate (this is called the 9x25mm Dillon) I think that the 9x23mm winchester has a chance, not a great chance but definately worth checking. I suspect the 357 automag would go through. You can get the Taurus Raging Hornet, I suspect the 22 hornet has better AP characterstics than even 5.7FN, I'd say maybe on the 22 remington jet magnum, (40 grain bullet at 2450 fps) , I'd say yes on the 256 winchester magnum (357 necked down to 25 caliber aka 6mm, puts a 60 grain bullet at 2400 fps) you can get revolvers chambered in 30 carbine as well, which if you had a good 6" barrel I'd bet on it getting through. the 357 maximum, loaded in the blackhawk revolver until it was found to cut the topstrap too badly with ejecting gasses, woudl go through (factory loaded 158 JHP claimed 1820 fps)The 38 casull puts a 124 gr 9mm projectile at 1800 fps, I'd bet that goes through, I know for a fact some cast 'hard' lead 454 casull loads from a long barreled handgun will blast right through, which tells me 460 SW will go through as well, as would the 500 SW.
But by the time we get to the 460 SW and the 500SW, we are basically getting into 'hand rifles' so then all the assault-weapons with short barrels and no buttstock, which are only considered handguns due to silly ATF rules, or Remington XP-100, or , or the Lone Eagle, or the Thompson Encore/Contender, and the like they'd perform just like rifles. I mean my god that crazy man JD Jones puts a 470 nitro in one!
http://www.remington.com/library/history/firearm_models/centerfire/xp-100.asp
http://www.magnumresearch.com/News_print.asp?story=shootimes.asp
http://www.sskindustries.com/encore.htm
This is why you need a vest AND a helmet
If you are talking about my AR-Clone variation/conversion to use a straight 9x35 9mmCarbine ... Heavies for far, lights for indoor spray, SabotSteel for hard targets.... that is all mine. All ammo types of that caliber could be fired from all gun models, from 6" Flattop-PDW, 16"AR-Carbine, 24"AR-Marksman.... just that some combinatons would be less effective, but still put the hurt on somebody if the choice is that or a club.
I agree with Tema,
until they decide what they really want to thing to be optimised for, it is a joke.
Another option for the Damage vs Range game mechanic:
Increase the targets Armor benefit at 3rd, 6th, & 9th RI.
You could even get a mini-table for the increase based on Lt/Med/Hvy armor type. from +0/+1/+2 for light over ranges to +1/+2/+4 for heavy
Yeah, I guess that'd work. But is it only the penetration that worsens? Or does the damage of the bullet worsen too?
If only the penetration of a bullet worsens, CyberDave's Penetration & Armour (or other forms of AaDR) Rules would be great, simply add a -1 penetration per 2 or 3 RI...
"In the tests at 2,500 yards, the target was hit five times in seventy rounds with the .45-70-405 service load, only once with the Martini-Henry in eighty rounds, and four times with the long range Springfield in thirty shots.
When the Springfield long range cartridge was fired, the 500-grain blunt nosed lead bullets propelled by 80 grains of black powder in the 2.4-inch cases at about 1,375 fps penetrated right through the three inches of wooden target and buried themselves in the sand. One 500-grain slug pierced three inches of target and buried itself in a supporting six-inch post, giving a total penetration of a measured 5.25 inches. The Service 405-grain bullet gave a penetration of just 1.12 inches,"
Bullet weight, boys, bullet weight.
Think about that for a minute, the target was 44x20 feet, about the size of a building, and being hit about 15% of the time, now imagine a 100 man rifle company volley firing at a small waystation, garage, barracks, sandbagged foxhole with 30 cal modern machinegun. Also, the misses are going to be falling in the general vicinity. Heck, that is further than the WW2 60mm mortars could reach!
during ww1 we could have stood off quite a ways and rained lead nearly vertically into the german trenches, rather than try and run through razor wire and jump in em.
If the 500 grain drives through 5 inches of wood, but the 405 barely penetrates over 1 inch, you could probably stop the 168 grain with a folded up newspaper on your head.
I still think a nice .45-70 double rifle will take out anything on the North American continent, with a proper pair of cartridges.