Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 koosemose Apr 29, 2009 7:08:53	So I've been trying to pin down some house rules... well more a complete reworking and heavy modification of the rules... for an upcoming campaign. Currently on the block are damage related rules. Most of the damage rules are imported from Saga Edition (I really like the fewer attacks per round), However some related rules aren't coming over, so it needs some tweaking to fit into the framework. The overall goal is to have more cinematic and less lethal combat, while still keeping a decent level of realism (so far as such things go in RP games). So just a quick summary so things will make sense if I go out of order or anything... 1 attack per round with damage bonus for quicker paced combats, Breaking Damage threshold will cause your combat effectiveness to go down instead of death/dying. Damage itself will have the 1/2 level damage bonus. However on the other end we have the Damage threshold, which is where I've had to start tweaking. I'm using standard MD20 Saves instead of Defenses (my players prefer saves, and since they're the ones mostly having to make 'em, no problem for me, except...), so this leaves Damage threshold in an awkward place. Currently, I have Damage Threshold equal to Con score + 1/2 level, I think that should work fairly well as it will leave damage vs. damage threshold at the same rate it is in base Md20, since the 1/2 level bonuses will cancel eachother out. A few other options I have considered: 1. Threshold = Level + Con Mod. This keeps it closer to how it functions in Saga, but in my experience at higher levels it's almost impossible to break threshold and at lower levels it's entirely too easy. 2. Threshold = Fort save. I like the fact that this would cause more variation between classes in relation to threshold, however it drastically increases the importance of fortitude in relation to the other saves, so that makes me a bit iffy on it. Also I'm not sure how well it would balance out with the damage being dealt. Now that damage and threshold is out of the way, it's time for the extremely altered "condition track." Unfortunately, my players felt that Condition Track was too much "book keeping" with the constant up and down and all that. However, they did like the base concept that your combat effectiveness goes down as you are wounded, as did I. From discussions with some of my players, it was mainly the fact that you were constantly going up and down on the track that gave the feel of excessive book keeping. So what I've done is, first off, removed any actions that bring you back up the condition track. Because of that I've had to reduce the seriousness of each step on the track. Actually I did away with the actual track entirely. When a character takes damage of their threshold they recieve a wound, every wound giving them a cumulative -1 penalty to pretty much everything. The only way to recover from a wound is resting outside of combat or using the Treat Injury Skill (I haven't yet decided on how exactly that portion of the rules will work). One part I am waffling on is rather or not a character will recieve a save vs. the wound. If they do the save will be equal to the damage taken. Pros for save: every Massive Damage hit isn't a guaranteed wound. Cons against save: potentially lots of dice rolling. Pros for no save: Will be simple mechanic (you take massive damage, you're wounded) Cons against no save: potential for wound stacking up quicker than I'm comfortable with. So considering the overall goals, and the mentioned peculiarites how would you handle damage, damage threshold, and wounds? Oh and on a somewhat related line of thought: This is going to be a mecha based game, and I am worried that the larger amounts of damage dealt by mecha weapons (I am using mecha rules from d20 future + future tech) will dilute the usefulness of the damage bonus, and additionally make mecha combat longer than it would otherwise be since characters can only attack once per round and damage bonus from level isn't signifigant enough (same goes for talents which add to damage.) I know star wars handled this by having multiplier on starship damages which was applied AFTER damage bonuses were added. I'm not certain I am up to tweaking the damage on weapons to use multipliers rather than multiple dice. The only other option I can come up with would be to have each mecha size have a damage multiplier for the sole purpose of affecting bonus damage, e.g. a Large would have x2 multiplier, so damage for a 5d6 weapon would be: 5d6 + (half pilot's level + pilot's strength mod if it's a melee weapon + any other non-dice bonus damage) x 2, where as a Huge mech might have a x3 multiplier, so it's damage for the same weapon would be: 5d6 + (half pilot's level + pilot's strength mod if it's a melee weapon + any other non-dice bonus damage) x 2, and so on. I'm not entirely sure what the multipliers for each size category would be, but that's the base concept. So, regarding mech damage, how would you advise to handle it?
#2 skipsandwich Apr 29, 2009 7:31:34	from the Unearthed Arcana houserule Injury The d20 game’s hit point system is an easy and effective way of measuring character health—but it’s somewhat abstract. This variant eliminates hit points, and simply determines whether characters are hurt or killed every time they’re hit in combat. Determining Injuries When using the injury variant, characters no longer have hit points. Instead, a character’s injuries accumulate until he becomes disabled or dying (or staggered or unconscious, if he has taken nonlethal damage). When a character or creature takes damage, divide the damage dealt by the attack by 5 (rounding up). The result is the damage value of the attack. For example, if you are hit by an attack that deals 12 points of damage, the attack has a damage value of 3 (12 divided by 5, rounded up). To determine if you are injured, make a Fortitude save to resist injury. The DC is 15 + the damage value. If you succeed on the save, you suffer no ill effect from the attack. If you fail the save by less than 10, you have taken a hit. (If the attack dealt nonlethal damage, the hit is a nonlethal hit.) Each hit you take imposes a cumulative -1 modifier on future Fortitude saves to resist injury. If you fail the save by 10 or more, you are disabled. (If the attack dealt nonlethal damage, you are staggered.) more details here http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/injury.htm basicly, every time a character is hit by an attack, they have to make a save (the UA varient has this as a fortitude save, but the True20 system uses a similar system where it is just a straight Constitution check + modifiers) the result of the save determine if and how badly that attack hurt them. The primary effect of being hurt is that it causes penalties on your saves to avoid being hurt, making it more likely that one will fail and fail by a greater margin, resulting in more severe wound conditions. Non-lethal damage goes by the same rules, but non-lethal 'hits' only make it easier to suffer more severe non-lethal damage results, lethal hits apply against all incoming damage. All you would need to do with the system is adjust the save mechanics up or down to the level of cinimatic vs. gritty that you want. As for mecha, they basicly count as big creatures, so they get an adjustment to thier damage save based on size. Mecha weapons would then have corespondingly high damage modifiers, so combat would flow at almost exactly the same pace as character combat, except on a bigger scale. the True20 system has a more detailed and fleshed out version of this rule as its damage mechanic, you can find it in the quick start demo PDF http://true20.com/files/True20_quickstart.pdf just replace all instances of the word 'Conviction' with 'action point' and you're good to go
#3 koosemose Apr 29, 2009 8:05:22	That doesn't really accomplish my goals. I'm not looking to replace hit points, just add penalties the more you are hurt, the only penalties that either of those systems apply are to future damage saves. The tru20 system (well at least Mutants and Masterminds which uses pretty much the same system) has some degree of penalties (the possibility of being stunned being the main one.) But in practice things tends to go from healthy to dead/dying instantly (though that may be the result of my strange rolling abilities causing NPCs to either fail their toughness saves catastrophically or succeed perfectly). Though the system of wounds was somewhat inspired by M&M/Tru20 damage rules...
#4 TheRealOrion Apr 29, 2009 12:33:47	I've been thinking about something like this, too. How about this. At every level, PCs must divide their HPs into quarters (or possibly a different fraction, this is just an idea). Every time someone reaches one of those thresholds (3/4, 1/2, 1/4), they take a penalty. This penalty could apply to a variety of things, but for simplicity's sake, you could just apply it to all d20 rolls, or even just all rolls (including damage). This penalty is cumulative and climbs with every threshold: -2, then -6 (2 + 4), then -10 (4 + 6), then -14 (6 + 8). By the time you get to 1/4 your HPs, you're in really bad shape. That's just off the top of my head. Feel free to play with some of how it works, or ignore it entirely. Hell, I've posted it to this forum, so it doesn't belong to me any more anyway!
#5 skipsandwich Apr 29, 2009 13:37:37	the problem with that proposal is that it a classic 'death spiral', the pc is either 'healthy' or 'completely screwed over'. A better idea is that at 2/3rds max hp one is fatigued, and at 1/3rd max hp one is exhausted.
#6 DwarfFighter Apr 29, 2009 17:09:51	Simple: A character at half or less hp is Fatigued. -DF
#7 koosemose Apr 30, 2009 3:14:35	I've been thinking about something like this, too. How about this. At every level, PCs must divide their HPs into quarters (or possibly a different fraction, this is just an idea). Every time someone reaches one of those thresholds (3/4, 1/2, 1/4), they take a penalty. This penalty could apply to a variety of things, but for simplicity's sake, you could just apply it to all d20 rolls, or even just all rolls (including damage). This penalty is cumulative and climbs with every threshold: -2, then -6 (2 + 4), then -10 (4 + 6), then -14 (6 + 8). By the time you get to 1/4 your HPs, you're in really bad shape. That's just off the top of my head. Feel free to play with some of how it works, or ignore it entirely. Hell, I've posted it to this forum, so it doesn't belong to me any more anyway! Wow, judging by this and a few other posts I'm guessing you're quite the rough GM... But on the topic at hand; for simplicity's sake (especially for a clean/clear character sheet) I prefer having a set damage threshold that is compared to damage taken, only one number to remember/note. Also with the relatively low set damage threshold, and lower penalties, it's going to happen more often and give more of the feel of lots of small wounds adding up to slow the hero down, which feels more cinematic to me... Sucking chest wounds are for sidekicks and thugs...
#8 TheRealOrion Apr 30, 2009 12:26:52	You could alter the numbers to taste. That was just off the top of my head. I tend towards a flat -2 instead of the pre-made conditions because, frankly, they're a pain in the ass to remember. I have to look them up every time. Oh I'm "fatigued"? Alright, gimme a second... "Exhausted"? Crap, what page is that... "Utterly Disgusted with Life and Consumed With Nihilistic Enui" huh? Okay, that's in Chapter 5... They're a great idea in a video game, where you could apply them automatically, but for a table-top game I find them really difficult to remember. But that's just me.