Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Master_Vega Jan 30, 2009 12:00:37	I remember when I first joined the boards, awhile ago, people were a lot more positive about massive damage. It made Modern a lot grittier than 3.X. Now people are calling it unimportant past level 1. For those who want to keep the "oh s***" factor of triggering MAS up to higher levels, here are some ideas for scaling. That Friggin' Hurt! Grittiness: Light to Moderate Rules: There is a difference between meeting and exceeding a characters MDT. For every 5 damage dealt over a character's MDT, the fort save DC to resist dropping out increases by 1. Stat Bonus to Massive Damage Grittiness: Light to Moderate Rules: Add the attacker's Strength modifier to MD DCs triggered by melee attacks (unless the character has Weapon Finesse), and add the attackers Dexterity modifier to MD DCs triggered by ranged attacks. Death by Precision Grittiness: Moderate to High Rules: Add either 1/2BAB or full BAB [and keep five extra characters ready] to the DC of a massive damage save. Kinda quick'n'dirty, but they at least help make things a little grittier. On a sidenote: if someone implemented a condition track that affected fortitude saves, MAS would grow in potency as the character lost HP.
#2 backstabbist Jan 30, 2009 12:11:30	I love the name "That Friggin' Hurt!" Lots of ways to make the MAS DC dynamic rather than the static DC15. DC15 +1DC per damage over MAS Plain shots like 9mm might add one or two pips, but the DTap has a good chance of adding a couple DC... and Burst will likely add 2or3 and maybe like 8. But then, what do you expect when you have a MAS of 12 and take 19 damage. Works at low & moderate levels quite well: Noobs shouldnt be doing over 15damage to the party on a regular basis, but we can expect that kind of scale at 3rd -5th. If you are 4th level and constantly taking over 20 damage, you have bigger problems than MAS. Fortunately, failing MAS aint the same as dieing. If 1 or 2 PCs go down during the fight, you got some time to bandage them.
#3 Master_Vega Jan 30, 2009 12:22:21	I love the name "That Friggin' Hurt!" I certainly thought it fit. :D Lots of ways to make the MAS DC dynamic rather than the static DC15. Indeed. I don't see why the complaints with the easy/obvious solutions out there. DC15 +1DC per damage over MAS Plain shots like 9mm might add one or two pips, but the DTap has a good chance of adding a couple DC... and Burst will likely add 2or3 and maybe like 8. But then, what do you expect when you have a MAS of 12 and take 19 damage. Works at low & moderate levels quite well: Noobs shouldnt be doing over 15damage to the party on a regular basis, but we can expect that kind of scale at 3rd -5th. If you are 4th level and constantly taking over 20 damage, you have bigger problems than MAS. Indeed. This houserule is going to make combat quick, not that it's a bad thing. It certainly shoots the "abstract nature of HP" arguement out of the sky. Ya think "Try getting shot less" is a fitting title? Fortunately, failing MAS aint the same as dieing. If 1 or 2 PCs go down during the fight, you got some time to bandage them. I think that's why Moderners are a lot less butthurt about it than D&D players. In D&D3.5, the rule apparently triggers insta-death on a failed save...
#4 tema69 Jan 31, 2009 8:26:39	Good ideas, all of them. We use, in our gritty-as-hell games, a MAS system where the DC is equal to the amount of damage taken (if it exceeds the Threshold, of course). Oh, and the MAS also scales with your Wounds (we use a Vit/Wounds system), so if you take wound damage, your MAS goes down too. I think it's preeeetty realistic, more so than the existing stuff, that is.
#5 narukagami Jan 31, 2009 10:51:45	I'm personally a fan of DC 10 + 1/2 damage delt.
#6 backstabbist Jan 31, 2009 14:05:49	Narukagami Yeah, thats a good one too
#7 narukagami Jan 31, 2009 14:13:50	I also just remembered the Call of Cthulhu massive damage rules. MDT for medium creatures is 10. Period. With a flat number like that, you remove part of the emphasis on having a high CON score. But on the other hand, MD saves will come up more often, so players might pump up CON anyway to get good fort saves.... Hmm.
#8 Cyber-Dave Jan 31, 2009 15:14:11	To be honest, I don't think the higher MDT from Con score is not what makes pumping Con so appealing. The number is still relational to damage, which means that high damage attacks are still more threatening. Moreover, without a huge investment in Con (which will come at the cost of a stat somewhere else) all it does is make an attack require a couple more points of damage to deal an MDT. That benefit is usually fairly in line with what other stats can potentially grant you. It is not super drastic. I think the mechanic that really makes pumping con a must is the fortitude saving throw. They come up so often in d20 Modern that it is just a must to have a high fortitude saving throw bonus, and constitution drastically effects ones ability to make fortitude saving throws.
#9 DwarfFighter Feb 01, 2009 8:40:52	The benefit of a fixed damage threshold of 10 is that the weapons are inherently dangerous regardless of the wielder. A character without firearm related feats is still able to deal 10 damage with a 2d6 pistol and at least force the target to take a Mas check. (Of course, this doesn't alter the fact that a knife is still "only" 1d4 damage.) A fixed threshold of 10 means that the characters take their Mas checks more often with obvious results: Even with Fort +10 you are going to fail the roll on a 1-4, and if you take multiple Mas checks in a round your Action Points may not be enough to save you. Not that this matters for me, though. I run Mas checks as written: Threshold = Con score, Mas DC = 15. Edit: And by the way, bear in mind that Mas checks are typically triggered by dealing a huge chunk of hp damage to the target. Is it really that important to drop a 30 hp character in one shot when that shot deals 20 damage? How about just shooting the guy again? That'll drop him for good regardless of his threshold and Fort save. -DF
#10 backstabbist Feb 01, 2009 9:34:46	I dont know if Con is so special or that some other stats are not so special. Dex provides AC as well as Ref Save bonus, just as Con effects the MAS level and the FortSave. Looking at a mid-high level Dex Monkey, they get huge Def scores to never get hit by targeted attacks, and the Ref Save combo with Evasion makes them practically imune to area attacks like Grenades and Autofire But in a non-magic Modern game how many nights of gaming go by between the pcs needing ro roll a Will save? Its not that CON is overly important, but that other stats are under utilized by the game mechanic Perhaps a quick study of how frequently stat bonuses are used in a gaming night, tabled by stat. For one night, each time you make a roll put a tickmark in the column of the Attribute that gives it a bonus..... A punch would be 1 for the Tohit and then another for the damage , or for shooting it would be a mark in the Dex column. If you get hit for more than 10 damage, go ahead and put a mark under CON due to con helping you with MAS, and another for the Fort Save if you need to roll one. But also put a tick in the Dex column each time someone rolls an attack against your Def. I am of the mind that we will see Str and Dex used a lot more by combat characters than Con. In other game systems we have a saying: The lower your Con is, the more armor you need.
#11 Cyber-Dave Feb 01, 2009 12:25:30	I guess the difference between my perception and yours, backstabbist, is that I find the outcome of the effect to be more important than how often the effect is utilized (though I consider how often an effect is utilized to be important as well). Under your method of counting, strength and dex probably would get used more. Each time someone tries to hit you that's a tick for dex, and each time you hit someone in melee that is two ticks for strength. But, with the con score, when it does get used it saves your life. Generally speaking, people don't drop you with a single hit when they hit your defense score. When you hit someone, that extra +1 damage is not going to make a massive world of a difference. But, when you take a mas hit, and need to make a con save, which happens fairly frequently, the difference between success and failure is the difference between life and death. Also, saves tend to be the mechanic which is most drastically effected by a stat. And of the three saves, fort saves seem to be the ones that are by far the most common.
#12 backstabbist Feb 01, 2009 15:55:10	The outcome of the effect, of Hitting MAS & Failing the FortSave, is not Death.... but to be inconvenienced for a while after your friends bandage you. Under your method of counting, strength and dex probably would get used more. Each time someone tries to hit you that's a tick for dex, and each time you hit someone in melee that is two ticks for strength. But, with the con score, when it does get used it saves your life As Dolf said, But if I had hit you, it would have killed you. It also smacks of the TWF LightningShot MP5 Burst and whatever other fancy trick one uses to make themselves unable to hit a barn with their -14/-18 tohit. If they never hit, you never need to worry about Con. One way is to have an insane Def, but another is to not get into fights (that what the meat shields are for) Lead from the Rear, or even better, from back home with TeleLeading There is no reason for Princess to surrender valuable Attribute points from Dex Int and Cha to bolster Con.... she is a lover not a fighter, and her GlassJaw proves it. Fortunately, Princess doesnt kick in doors, or even stand anywhere near someone kicking doors. Under your method of counting, strength and dex probably would get used more. Again you are talking about Fighty folks. There is roleplaying outside of combat. Skills and talking are tools too, especially for Princess. Str & Con dont get used much with her, she dont fight..... I mean, she even has a frequent use of the tactical maneuver called Surrender while the rest of the team fights: If wounding the enemy ties up more resources than killing, surrendering during a fight can tie up 1 or 2 guys to "Watch her close Boys" and she would be hard pressed to take 2 goons out of a fight with her lack of combat skills.
#13 Cyber-Dave Feb 01, 2009 16:32:22	As I said in the other thread, in any game where any of the team fights, Murphy's Law dictates that "princess" will eventually get hit and get hit hard. Certainly a character can choose to shoot themselves in a foot, and have a glass jaw, for the sake of role-playing. However, mechanically, the game rewards you for preparing for that eventuality with a few levels in classes with better Fort Save Bonuses and a Con of 12+. To choose not to do this is to choose to mechanically penalize yourself for the sake of role-playing. And, it sort of leaves a bad taste in my mouth when any aspect of the game penalizes someone for a role-playing decision. A non combat character doesn't need Dexterity. They avoid fights to try and not get hit. But in the unavoidable eventuality where Murphy causes them to get hit, that character needs a decent constitution for a decent fort save. That makes Con more important than Dex (and Dex is the only stat that offers anywhere near the benefits that Con grants you). An additional problem, its all nice and dandy to say "one member of the team doesn't fight and lets the meat shields fight," but that scenario leads to one ultimate eventuality. During combat the princess essentially does not play. During non combat encounters geared towards the princess the meat shield essentially does not play. Someone is always bored at some point in time. I prefer games designed to include all players during all encounters.
#14 bignorsewolf Feb 01, 2009 20:28:06	I think the system works fine as is. We've been playing from level four and are currently on level 13. While there was a swing from hit points, to the fort save, back to hit point loss being the thing that puts a character down, being shot is still dangerous. "Don't get hit" is hard in an abstract system where any punk with a lucky shot WILL hit you. Sure, everyone ducking around corners, afraid to do anything is realistic.. but it sure isn't FUN. Its better for everyone at the table whent he swashbuckler is jumping from parked car to parked car knowing that getting shot is a risk while the mercanary tosses grenades around the corner. Changing the way massive damage works changes EVERYTHING about the system. If its based on how much damage you do, slow heavy melee weapons become the only viable tactic. (Og melee smash with chainsaw at 3d6+ 7 damage at first level!) If the DC is a static 10, then the fast light dual weilders rule, because they only need to inflict a little damage and inflict it often to force saves. (gonzales shoots 3 times for 2d6 damage!) As it is, evey damage dealer has their niche. I like seeing diversity at the table.
#15 backstabbist Feb 01, 2009 23:59:20	A non combat character doesn't need Dexterity. You do realize Dex is used for more than fighting, dont you? I'm gonna put an end to this debate: You win. You are right that everyone must be a combatant, or at least be built for combat, and you are so right that Con is the end all stat of stats for all characters everywhere because everyone will be fighting eventually. The Princess, the ships pilot, the librarian all would be stupid to not max out Con cause they might get in a fight some day. There, you win. I'm done trying to get folks to even recognize some roleplaying is not about fighting.
#16 Cyber-Dave Feb 02, 2009 15:45:29	You do realize Dex is used for more than fighting, dont you? Sorry, you are right. A non acrobatic/non combat/non-theif/non-sneaky/non-coordinated character doesn't need dex. There, you win. I'm done trying to get folks to even recognize some roleplaying is not about fighting. Your problem is that you do not realize that everyone recognized that some roleplaying is not about fighting. Of course not all role-playing requires a fight. However, if there is any combat in a d20 Modern game whatsoever, then survivability becomes a key issue. With d20 Modern specifically, the game is very combat oriented. Much of the games mechanics surround combat resolution. Virtually all d20 Modern games include at least an occasional combat scenario. Thus, with virtually all d20 Modern games survivability is important. Not because your characters prime contribution is in combat. Not because you are playing a combat character. Not because your character shines during combat. But because if your character can not survive combat when it occurs, your character will not be given a chance to role-play or shine outside of combat. Because of Constitution's drastic effect on survivability (a mechanical effect that I would argue is far more drastic than any other stats effect on the game), this makes Constitution a mechanical must have for all characters (but those who choose to mechanically penalize themselves for the sake of roleplaying). The specific effect which makes Constitution a must have, in my opinion, is the Fortitude save. Saves are the mechanical effect that is most drastically effected by stats. This COULD potentially make dexterity and willpower incredibly important stats as well. However, Fortitude saving throws (from what I have seen) are a lot more commonly required in order to avoid save or die/save or suck effects, especially for characters that generally speaking try to avoid combat. I'm not really a fan of that set up. I think the saving throw mechanic (due to the numbers chosen for its use in 3e and d20 Modern, not the concept of the mechanic itself) is poor for this reason. I don't mind Constitution effecting a character's survivability, but I would prefer that the effect was more in line with how Constitution works in Star Wars Saga then in d20 Modern. Its effect, in that game, is far less drastic (though still far more drastic then Constitutions effect on survivability in 4e)...
#17 Master_Vega Feb 02, 2009 16:56:26	Sorry, you are right. A non acrobatic/non combat/non-theif/non-sneaky/non-coordinated character doesn't need dex. Fixed. :D
#18 Cyber-Dave Feb 02, 2009 17:37:31	Isn't that what I wrote? :P ;)
#19 penchant Feb 04, 2009 0:02:04	I use a Vitality/Wound system as well. After a couple of games with that it seemed kind of silly to have a MAS damage system at all. With vitality representing light damage or avoided damage altogether, then it doesn't seem right that a person who takes 16 points of vitality damage would then have to make a save or go down. Once you get down to wound, that much damage would usually be more than the PC's wound total and is useless. I only apply MAS rules to monsters and creatures that have racial hit dice, which I rule represents actual damage capacity rather than class hit dice which represents levels of skill at damage avoidance. This keeps it on my plate as a GM and out of the way of the players. As such, the DC can be whatever I feel the situation warrants rather than have a hard and fast rule, and my NPCs can't complain if I cheat them by bumping the DC arbitrarily.