Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Mar 31, 2008 15:04:00	Alright. I've been looking for a good way to implement something Tome of Battle-esque into D20Modern. Several people have come up with conversions of methods of their own, and they do work well, but I've been wanting something fairly mundane, but still powerful... and so far I like this one. :P It seems like a mix between Tome of Battle's maneuver system, and Complete Scoundrel's skill tricks (though it might just be because of the word "trick".) I made all of the tricks action-point powered, as I think that fits better than once per encounter/day... but since action points are a finite resource, this class might begin to starve only a few battles after leveling up. I have a few ideas listed after the class entry, so I'd appreciate it if you read those, too. Enjoy the class! Rifleman Prestige Class Requirements: To Qualify for the Rifleman Prestige Class, a character must fulfill the following criteria. Skills: Concentration 7 ranks, Spot 7, Listen 7, Knowledge (tactics) 7 Feats: Weapon Focus, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot Class Information: The Following Information Pertains to the Rifleman Prestige Class. Hit Die: d8 Action Points: 7+1/2 character level Class Skills: Concentration, Drive, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (current events, History, Pop Culture, Tactics), Listen, Navigate, Profession, read/Write Language, Speak Language, Spot, Survival, Tumble. Skills per Level: 3+int modifier
#2 nodaisho Mar 31, 2008 21:57:11	I like it, I am not sure balance-wise, or how to avoid running out of AP, but I have a question. Do you have to give your rifle a girl's name? (or a guy's name, depending on character gender and orientation)
#3 zombiegleemax Apr 01, 2008 0:29:32	How could I have forgotten!? That's an entry requirement! :P Glad you like the class. Can you think of anything that seems overpowered?
#4 backstabbist Apr 01, 2008 13:09:51	What gender is the name "PainBringer"? Thats a girls name... right?
#5 battles14 Apr 01, 2008 13:40:52	There are a couple problems that I see with the class as-is: 1st, Double shot seems a bit unnecessary. Once a character has enough levels to qualify for the class, he may already have the ability to attack more than once in a turn. A better idea may be to allow the character to fire the rifle twice with one attack action. I understand what you're trying to do with the tricks, but I think you made things just a little too complicated. A better idea may be to pick a few of them, awarding one at each level. I don't think requiring an AP would be necessary in this case. I would recommend: 1st - This Is My Rifle 2nd - Double Shot 3rd - There Are Many Like It (weapon focus and spec. extend to all rifles) 4th - Vital Shot 5th - But This One Is Mine (+4 to all attacks with preferred rifle) When you're creating a new class, there's always a desire to give players as many options as possible, but sometimes you just have to decide so that things don't get too confusing. If players don't like it, there are a bunch of other classes to take. I love making advanced and prestige classes, and I think you found a great niche to help players specialize.
#6 backstabbist Apr 01, 2008 16:20:19	This could also be done almost exactly the same, but call them Talents. Talents in the tree must be taken in order, but trees may be taken in any order without need to complete one tree before taking a talent from another. Multi Attack Tree Double Shot -- Fire twice in one attack action, take a -2 on both attacks. This trick requires an at least semi-auto weapon. < This applies a -2 to all attacks that round, cumulative with all other penalties for additional attacks, such as TWF, LightningShot, and previous use of Rifleman DoubleShot. As such, all uses of Rifleman Doubleshot must be declared prioor to the first attack roll that round> Through Shot -- Make a second attack roll at a -4 against a second opponent in your line of fire. Reactionary Fire -- Immediately return fire upon an opponent who just attacked you. Fire For Effect Tree Spray and Pray -- Double-autofire attack as a 30ft cone. Suppressing Fire -- Fire a hail of bullets at a covering opponent. He takes a -8 to all attacks for the next round. Dang He's Good Tree Finesse Shot -- Double your dexterity bonus for your next attack. Disarming Shot -- Disarm your opponent using your preferred rifle. Sweeping Volley -- Use autofire to make a ranged trip attempt, gain +4 on the check and use your dexterity modifier instead of your strength. Take Down Tree -- Rifleman Class level check DC20, add Rifleman class levels to rifle damage Vital Shot -- Double your rifle's critical threat range. This stacks with Improved Critical. Finishing Touch -- Deliver ranged coup-de-grace against helpless foe. I dont feel they all need an AP to do, I hate running out of AP & becoming useless. Many of these should get a 'Once Per XXX' limit rather than AP.
#7 zombiegleemax Apr 01, 2008 17:32:41	That's a good idea, Backstabbist. Should the class get the talents at the same rate, or slower? Thanks for the advice, Battles. I'm not sure I'm ready to give up the selection bit, though. :P
#8 backstabbist Apr 01, 2008 18:16:24	Make it a 10 level PrC and they will get most of them given enough time. I like the idea that every level the old dog learns a new trick. Maybe add Strafe. Maybe add a tree for Melee: . PigStickin (bayonet +1 Tohit) . Parry (Dodge +1) . The Big Bash (Butstock damage +Level Non-Lethal) I understand Spot, but Listen? Maybe I am stuck thinking like ranged marksman where listen isnt done a lot with the binocs.
#9 zombiegleemax Apr 01, 2008 18:21:33	Are there any other 10-level PrC's in Modern, or should I make this an advanced class for continuity's sake? Also: good work on the new trees/talents. They go well with the existing ones.
#10 backstabbist Apr 01, 2008 18:32:19	Is it too late to call it a Starting Occupation? ;) I dont like getting hung up on names. I think 5 levels is too short, 6 or 8 would let you go all the way in 2 trees & dabble in other trees. If you do drop the AP use, then the 'This One Is Mine' should drop from +4 to +2 IMHO You could ease the entry and add a few more trees to make the universal rifleman.
#11 nodaisho Apr 01, 2008 19:42:19	What gender is the name "PainBringer"? Thats a girls name... right? Depends on the girl, I know a few who would fit that name, not that I would say it to their faces of course. One thing to note about this class: With an arcana occupation, you could get this class fourth level, using dedicated hero. I am not sure if there are other ways. You would not be making an optimal character over time, since you would have lost a feat and some attack progression for it, but in the short term after you get it, you are getting some good abilities and a high BAB. If you want this to be a PrC, I would suggest a required BAB, I am thinking 4 or 5. I think a strong/soldier would be able to get it by 7 that way, though having that high a concentration rank prereq will make it a pain for anyone that isn't a tough to get it. I think the Sniper PrC in the UA web enhancement just has a requirement of 3 ranks, so it is easier for people getting it cross-class. edit: I do like the idea of making it an AdC for a universal rifleman, though for balance, you would probably have to drop the BAB down to 3/4. Honestly, I like the idea of making very few classes, but having a bunch of trees of talents in each of those classes, like the idea was with the basic classes, but expanding it further so you get a decent amount of choices.
#12 zombiegleemax Apr 01, 2008 20:09:55	Alright then, this'll become an advanced class. I'll drop the BAB to 3/4 and figure out new skill requirements. I just caught something I don't recall ever seeing mentioned: no defense bonus. I've been playing D&D too often lately. @_@ I'll get to work on the new version tonight. I have a mid-term in thirty-five minutes. >_>
#13 nodaisho Apr 01, 2008 20:20:01	Don't feel the need to do that, I just think it would be cool to have a lot of classes like that, depending on what they specialize in. Rifleman, Pistoleer, CQB/pointman (shotguns and SMGs, maybe have pistols in this rather than their own distinct class), probably some classes emphasizing skills over combat as well, not sure how you would make those cover large amounts of possibilities as well. It would take a lot of work though. No defense bonus? I thought there was something wrong, but couldn't tell what.
#14 backstabbist Apr 01, 2008 20:39:24	GAhhh! No, my precious Full BAB is not some overpowered Prestige Only thing! Gunmen with full bab is not a crime. Consider what brought this change: If we let folks take this class before 7th level we should drop the Full BAB. Why? If this class is balanced with Full BAB, how is it not balanced if the guy starts it earlier. Dont say, If you have 7 ranks in XXX then Full BAB Gunman is balanced. Keep the full BAB, I'll just have to waste more levels of Strong trying to CC into it with my Rifle.
#15 backstabbist Apr 01, 2008 21:16:36	double post
#16 zombiegleemax Apr 01, 2008 22:58:49	You have a point, Backstabbist. If the Martial Artist can have a full BAB, and as powerful of abilities as it does, so can this class. I'll see about converting it to an advanced class. I think I'll still keep the prestige version even if I do, and just place the advanced class version in my second post on this thread. nodaisho -- I know what you mean. It really bugs me that advanced classes don't allow for the same customizability as base classes. I know their supposed to be focused, but customization DOES focus. :P That may be my next project... after the community project starts picking up some momentum anyway.
#17 backstabbist Sep 02, 2009 19:46:11	Do we have anyone that has tried this class and can tell us how it worked out?
#18 dbay Sep 03, 2009 1:29:07	Reactionary Fire -- Immediately return fire upon an opponent who just attacked you This one is a bit absurd as-is- imagine this: Col. Mustard is surrounded by 24 toughs armed with an array of toughish weaponry. Mustard has a gun with at least 24 rounds. As each tough shoots, Mustard gets to shoot each one immediately, so long as he can spend the AP. It reminds me of an agile repost character I once had, who would deliberately provoke AoO's, relying on his high AC to make the attack miss, and essentially gets one more attack every round. I would do it like this: Reactionary Fire: Immediately get an AoO upon an opponent who just attacked you. This counts against your usual number of AoO's per round (usually one).
#19 backstabbist Sep 03, 2009 9:52:31	How do you explain Col Mustard still having 24AP to spend this round if he has this uber-awesome power that sucks down AP like cheetos? Lets follow your example back in time a few levels: Last level he didnt get to use this ability at all, he's been saving up AP. Previous level he didnt use this abilkity at all, again he is just saving up AP. Level before that he didnt use this ability at all, just hoarding AP for years without doing anything "ACTIONy" Are we to say it is unfair for a guy to not spend any AP for several levels because he wan to use his APcosting ability every round of every fight at level 17?  What about the Gunslinger that spends an AP every round of every fight this level to get +3d6? Is it not ballance to assume the Gunslinger has 24AP to burn?   This is what hapens when you play chars that were Built rather than played up from 1st, you just assume he never ever used any AP to stay alive for 10-15 levels and has over 24AP saved up   Normal: You cannot attack someone that attacked you. Benefit: You may return attack Special: Spend 1AP for this act to not count against you normal number of AoO AP are there to go above and beyond, the over the top stuff you dont get to do all the time... like adding +3d6Damage just by spending an AP
#20 Master_Vega Sep 03, 2009 11:15:52	Reactionary Fire -- Immediately return fire upon an opponent who just attacked you This one is a bit absurd as-is- imagine this: Col. Mustard is surrounded by 24 toughs armed with an array of toughish weaponry. Mustard has a gun with at least 24 rounds. As each tough shoots, Mustard gets to shoot each one immediately, so long as he can spend the AP. It reminds me of an agile repost character I once had, who would deliberately provoke AoO's, relying on his high AC to make the attack miss, and essentially gets one more attack every round. I would do it like this: Reactionary Fire: Immediately get an AoO upon an opponent who just attacked you. This counts against your usual number of AoO's per round (usually one). Hooooly crap this is old. Really old. It's mine, too. @_@ Erhem. How the heck is Mustard spending 24 action points in one round? There's kind of a limit of one AP expendature per round, unless you take Daredevil. Then you can spend two per round. Yay.
#21 dbay Sep 03, 2009 14:23:08	Hooooly crap this is old. Really old. It's mine, too. @_@ Erhem. How the heck is Mustard spending 24 action points in one round? There's kind of a limit of one AP expendature per round, unless you take Daredevil. Then you can spend two per round. Yay. I didn't know that, I thought the limit was once/die roll. As for backstabbist's point, If you don't use action points very often and you level up quickly (for whatever reason) then sometimes you do wind up with massive reserves. 24 is a huge cost, but compared to some uses of APs, this is a pretty good one.