You should throw a curve ball at them. For your next game create an aventure without any combat encounters. A mystery that can only be solved by interviewing NPC witnesses, collecting clues and using skills. After such a game session if they still think they can't roleplay with the D20 system you have some hard choices to make...
Best of luck
Anyway, here are my standard tips to promote roleplaying:
1) The GM needs to roleplay. Players take their cues from the GM - so you need to roleplay. Ham it up with NPCs and the players will respond in kind, it may take a few sessions to get the swing of this, but they will.
2) Roll the dice less. As Atanakar suggested just reduce combat for a session. Most GMs with good roleplaying groups have entire sessions where all that happens is roleplaying. I wouldn't go completely without combat, if you have lots of combat now, and you go cold turkey you will likely bore your players. Just reduce combat and incorporate more roleplaying.
3) Change your mindset. Don't run a d20 mystery adventure - run a mystery adventure that just happens to use the d20 mechanics to resolve some conflicts. This may seem a little silly to some, but when you approach GMing from outside the system it really is a revolution in thinking. All systems are limiting by their design, some more than others, but if you come at it from outside the system you can adjust/overcome such limits.
4) Smaller groups. As you said you need to break up your group into smaller groups, roleplaying increases and improves the smaller the group.
5) Make the world meaningful. This is major - make the setting and NPCs real, make it something solid and real for the players to interact with. Make the world change from their actions, real consequences for real actions. Make the world evolve with them. The more immersed your players - the more roleplaying. When players aren't really engaged they socialize more and are more distracted.
6) Do not enforce anything. Don't force your players to roleplay. Positive reinforcement is the key, not enforcement. Give XP awards for roleplaying (really this is huge), tell your players when they are roleplaying well (this is even huger, people are shy and need encouragement), and give roleplaying results.
7) Don't use social skills. If you are compressing encounters down to die rolls you are undermining roleplaying. Have the players perform the diplomacy, bargaining, or interrogation. Most players love to do this IF they have a GM who can do the other side well. If you can roleplay a frightened prisoner, corrupt cop, or wisecracking fence then your players will respond in kind. See, #1 is super important.
When I started (and am currently running) my own d20 Future campaign, I did not want it to run the stereotypical path of dnd.
The "You all meet in a tavern..bleh".
A bit of effort and knowing your players can go a long way. If they enjoy role playing then this is a great opportunity. what I did is the following:
* Each player, after they made their character, wrote a small 1 paragraph to 1 page background.
* I created a setting for each player using their background as plot motiviations for their individual settings. So for example, one player was a soldier so I put him on a military installation. Another player was a psionic so I put her on an asteroid hideout, and the last player was an Robot.
The Soldier
=========
We ran 3 sessions just for HIS character and HIS background. The other players would play NPCs (which they could keep if they liked them better than their own characters, this worked well for the robot player character due to the social limitations of rogue AI in my campaign).
The Psionic
=========
3 Sessions just for this character focusing on story and character development. Also, a great way to set the tempo of the tensions between this characters organization and the soldier who is hunting this players group. (psychically aware people are hunted and killed in my camapaign for fear of death..).
The Robot
========
I went to town on this guy, first he became a self-aware AI and had to play 3 sessions trying to make a body for himself to "flee" the net and live in "reality" which was his main attraction. Being evil to the core, he manipulated his way into a pirate ship and then scuttled the ship in order to be "saved" by the psionic characters organization which was fooled into what they thought was a mission to save one of their members...
Long story short, all these individual game session developed strong plot points and backgrounds that all tied together to a stressful but fun situation where the players were faced with their own agendas and had to make hard choices to kill each other or work together.
They of course, worked together and fled their backgrounds and were now free to explore the campaign as a group of renegades.
So, spending a little time developing characters in the beginning is good. d20 is as good as any game for RPG as most role playing is meta-gaming.
Promote character discussion and help the players by prompting them to "what would your character say?".
Also, make the players realize that their characters are human buy including moments where the players get some rest and relaxation and have to eat and sleep, as apart of a story. Starting an adventure off like "You spent a few months relaxing and shopping.." dosn't hurt at all.
(coffee working over time here), the last thing that's important in any role playing that I try to do in my campaign is to interject moments of spare time in between the action. Every two or three adventures have a few sessions where the players just to get to do WHATEVER they want. This will alow them to develop their character through ownership (buying a house, or a base or starship ...), and also follow up on NPCs they are curious about.
Having allot of NPCs is great...more people that get involved in the players lives the better, just keep a detailed record of each so you can pull them out of the wood work when needed.
Hope something useful came of all of this!
Almost forgot, I have a converted Lifepath generator for players who make d20 characters in my campaigns. This is modified from the Cyberpunk system.
It can be found here: http://sites.google.com/site/d20futurecampaign/Home/files
I find there are three kinds of players when it comes to developed backgrounds: 1) Writes a novel and loves character development, tends to not be as interested in combat. 2) Writes a paragraph, and their background isn't very deep " was born a farmers child and joined the army..", the average player enjoys an even mix of story and gameplay 3) Dosn't submit a background is mostly interested in moving the mini's on the board to get as few AOO as possible.
I make the game for them, so I write for those who make the effort to develop background. Those who are interested in combat or table-top gaming (and I've got those in my group), I make sure that they get at least a few combat sessions per game session and make sure they get bloodied each time (they like enjoyment out of pulling out of combat with 2 hp left...lol).
I'm a writer (if you couldn't tell by my posts), so I like to set a detailed framework. My biggest problem is time, there isn't enough to properly detail d20 modern or future..so allot you gotta wing.
Our old group consisted of 7 players. Our new group consists of 4 players. My girlfriend didn't like modern roleplaying games (preferred fantasy and stuff like that) and quit after trying the ww2 introadventure, a friend didn't have enough time and quit, although the setting 'is made for him' (he loves gritty 'realism' and ww2 stuff). The third one is a special case that should go under the categories of players. After having written extensive guidelines for creating a character (basically: you write the background, the basic abilities, and weaknesses and secrets, I (the GM) grant XP based on that, and create the crunch of the character, because most of the players didn't grasp the game mechanics and different classes and abilities as well as I do; my English being better (we're Danish), and I having loads of 3rd Party Supplement on my harddisk), he repeatedly asked which level he could create his character at. I told him to read the email containing the instructions, but nonetheless, he kept wanting to know the starting level and how he should roll/create his stats. I ended up kicking him out (that's a privilege I have by 'working'/GMing at a youth-club - I can simply state that the player isn't fit for the game played. I'm 17, and most of my players are 14-17, so it's not a big difference.). Turns out, all the other players agreed with the decision even before hearing my explanation.
[/rant]
So, 3 of my players are the 'novellist' type, while the fourth is more in it for the action and not too much character development. I was expecting that only one of them would be the 'novellist' type, but it turns out several of them wrote absolutely amazingly creative stuff.
And yea, time is really a factor. I'm on summer holiday right now, so I've worked my a*s off to create as much material as possible, because since this is my final year at school/college/whatever this translates to in your country, I'm having loads of schoolwork to do.
I had my best gaming experiences in college, sine we had so many people who lived right on campus... And we would play for sick hours. Was loads of fun.
I've had a number of interesting players in my group as a player and as a GM. I try to be open to everyone as I hate rejecting people, so I cringe sometimes when I bring in a new player.
As a player I've been in and out of groups in the Milwaukee area. Most groups fold due to time (having kids killed two of my groups), or personality conflicts (that group lead to a Total Party Kill, so I wasn't too dissapointed to leave).
But three stand out as strange. The first one was when I was playing in a four year long forgotten realms campaign and a new player showed up and hated me, so he plotted through the GM to have my character assassinated!
He eventually left because my personality was too much (I was playing my CN fighter of Tempus who was self-made Count..so ya...hes got some attitude).
Another was a guy who was in high school and was joining our college group. He came to the game with a three-ring binder FULL of character sheets...every inch of the sheets had notes on it..I couldn't read...
... FEAR any player with a binder full of characters...somethings not right...
He kept dying anyway ...good thing he had those backups! lol (BTW, his characters were all whack...his first was a samurai / ninja half dragon something ..bleh... his samurai jumped at the first opportunity we had to pick a lock...I yelled at him for being lame...some ninja...
Dnd is a great game in that it brings people together to enjoy a common interest. Ive met allot of my friends through dnd. But the game also brings out some more colorful characters as well..
ROLL THE DICE AND TAKE 20 ON FUN!
I've also had a character playing a ninja - he decided to climb up the mast of the pirate's brand new mast with his climbing claws. The pirate ended shooting him down (of course, said ninja didn't have any ranks in climb) with a musket, after what the ninjaguy ran down to some guys loading said boat with supplies and jumped onto one of the carts. The loaders stopped and looked at him, wondering wtf a short guy dressed in a black pyjamas wielding a katana (in which he wasn't proficient) was doing on their cart. I don't remember how I ended up dealing with him though.
The ring-bind full of character -guy sure sounds weird.
Just wondering, cause I have notes, like Special Unit Training that would give the player a bonus and equipment for say a cyberhacker, etc.
These took the form of regional feats or skill mods.
I used this in my d20 future campaign. Based upon what homeworld or political background the players choose they would get feats or mods to their character based on that.
In a d20 sci-fi there could be hundreds of colonized worlds with greatly different environments (cold/hot, high grav/low grav, radiation..etc). So, Imagine how that would change humans or any race that lived there?
My guideline for this is: 1 or 2 feats at most..and nothing HUGE mostly role playing feats or ultility feats (good ones are the things players like, but dont want to buy themselves). And a smattering of +2 - +4 skill mods sprinkled on top.
Here is what I have as training so far;
RISE (Recon Infiltration Sabotage Espionage) Troops: Trained in reconnaissance, infiltration, sabotage, and espionage arts and are adept at them. Once infiltrated, the member begins gathering information on the area and if necessary begins creating strife in the target area.
WOLF (Weapon Ordinance Liberation Force) Troops: Trained to enter occupied territories and using improvised weaponry or captured ordinance free the people.
FIST (First Initial Strike Teams) Troops: Trained in striking hardened enemy targets first when surprise is of importance. FIST Troops are the first soldiers sent to open up the way for consecutive waves.
HEAT (High Explosive Anti-Tank) Troops: Troops trained in the use of high explosives and anti-vehicular weaponry.
HEAP (High Explosive Anti-Personnel) Troops: Troops trained in small unit to fight and destroy enemy personnel.
Firebugs’ Training: Intensive training involving the use of incendiary materials and multiple forms of explosives.
And as equipment, well things like Nano-computers, small Remote Drones for Recon/etc
Ill do my best below:
RISE (Recon Infiltration Sabotage Espionage): Trained in reconnaissance, infiltration, sabotage, and espionage. Specializes in infiltrating organizations creating counter-intelligence and strife.
training modifiers: Move Silently +3, Hide +3, Gather Information +2, Disguise +2, Bluff +2, maybe some penalties to offset the bonuses such as: Diplomacy -3, Search -2..etc.
WOLF (Weapon Ordinance Liberation Force): Capable of training and arming insurgent or rebel forces behind enemy lines. Specializing in the creation of improvised weapons and defenses to aid in liberation.
training modifiers: Move Silently +1, Hide +1, Diplomacy +2, Bluff +2, Sense Motive +2 maybe some penalties to offset the bonuses such as: ??? ..etc.
FIST (First Initial Strike Teams): Shock troops trained in assaulting hardened enemy defenses. Often the first wave in a larger assault.
training modifiers: Jump+2,Run +2,Survival+2,Spot+2,Search+2, maybe some penalties to offset the bonuses such as: ..etc.
HEAT (High Explosive Anti-Tank): Infantry trained in explosives and anti-vehicular demoitions. Focusing primarily on anti-tank warfare these troops are deployed wherever enemy heavy armor is found.
training modifiers: Driving+2,Demolitions +3,Survival+1..., maybe some penalties to offset the bonuses such as: ..etc.
HEAP (High Explosive Anti-Personnel): Specialized demolitions team trained in infantry warfare. Very mobile and versatle unit capabile of handling most enemy defenses involving large number of troops.
training modifiers: Demolitions +3,Survival+1..., , maybe some penalties to offset the bonuses such as: ..etc.
FIREBUG: Incendiary demolitions training against structures and highly flamable enemy targets.
training modifiers: Demolitions +3,Survival+1..., , maybe some penalties to offset the bonuses such as: ..etc.
And as equipment, well things like Nano-computers, small Remote Drones for Recon/etc
I don't really know the depth of these packages so I kept them fairly light but using skills is a good way to differentiate flavors of soldiers. They are all soldiers, but training (skills and feats) is what seperates them.
But this is over and above the skills a character would get. This skill package represents training that was given to the character irregardless of his /her own interests.
So, yes he could pump more into demolitions and be a super firebug..or broaded his skill set into disguise and bluff and be the stealth firebug ..the only man in the platoon who can dress the nines then burn it down...
Its all flavor ..and the core skill package, in my mind, represents training with a more specific focus (thus some penalties should be mixed in for balance).
My2cents...
You're gonna go places, kid.
Your thoughts?
If not, thank you. Right now, the most probable place for me to go will be in bed. It's the sun will soon be rising here and I haven't slept.
@AnimeSniper: I still don't see how skill ranks and appropriate feats (and fluff) can do the trick, without having to worry about a whole new factor of game balance.
Please don't take this as negative criticism, I'm not trying to be a jerk. Just want to understand the point.
About DirtyDozen in Power Armour, I'm sure you can get some cool action out of that. I GM a WW2 Dirty Dozen kind of group with pyrophiles (the guy is actually turned on by fire), white supremascists (sp?), perfectionist/authists, etc. PCs (note: none of the players are too weird themselves, they just like to play crazy motherf*ckers). But I've built their characters according to their defects and strengths, using Starting Occ, Basic/Adv. Classes, Feats and Skills, following the normal rules. Two Strong 3 / Soldier 5 characters can be really different characters, even without giving them 'templates'.
@AnimeSniper: I still don't see how skill ranks and appropriate feats (and fluff) can do the trick, without having to worry about a whole new factor of game balance.
Please don't take this as negative criticism, I'm not trying to be a jerk. Just want to understand the point.
I accept criticism, both types really, cause it helps improve what I create!
What I have is a work in progress, using a fellow D&D players D20 Materia as ref for now until I recieve my own copies via my stupid damaging my magazines Postal system or major shipping company.
Sorry, I haven't slept in almost 48 hrs cause of summer college classes.
Still the Training stuff might not be used... just hashing stuff down as I think of things; vehicles, computers, equipment, armor types, Mecha, Mecha Weaponry, Engines, companies/corporations, rockets, general weaponry... well the list goes on.
Sorry if I rambled... four energy drinks and counting, exactly how many can a single human consume before experiencing adverse effects again?
Also, what about those future planetary governments that require a set enlistment time as part of becoming an adult/etc, or the whole Mercenary Corporation that has recruiting station on multiple worlds and has their own planet.
7) Don't use social skills. If you are compressing encounters down to die rolls you are undermining roleplaying. Have the players perform the diplomacy, bargaining, or interrogation. Most players love to do this IF they have a GM who can do the other side well. If you can roleplay a frightened prisoner, corrupt cop, or wisecracking fence then your players will respond in kind. See, #1 is super important.
Lots of good points, but I don't agree with this one. I go halfway between straight roleplaying and rolling based on the skill. The way I do it is the player roleplays everything out themselves, then makes their roll. The roll only determines how well the NPC perceives their words. If they do a good job with the roleplay part, I give a bonus to their roll.
I accept criticism, both types really, cause it helps improve what I create!
Awesome.
What I have is a work in progress, using a fellow D&D players D20 Materia as ref for now until I recieve my own copies via my stupid damaging my magazines Postal system or major shipping company.
Sorry, I haven't slept in almost 48 hrs cause of summer college classes.
Sucks?
Still the Training stuff might not be used... just hashing stuff down as I think of things; vehicles, computers, equipment, armor types, Mecha, Mecha Weaponry, Engines, companies/corporations, rockets, general weaponry... well the list goes on.
That sounds like a good idea when creating fictious worlds.
Sorry if I rambled... four energy drinks and counting, exactly how many can a single human consume before experiencing adverse effects again?
I think, one.
Also, what about those future planetary governments that require a set enlistment time as part of becoming an adult/etc, or the whole Mercenary Corporation that has recruiting station on multiple worlds and has their own planet.
Is it a question? I'm confused by the lack of question mark in that case.
@ Jolt: I agree. There are several ways of dealing with this.
First, you could do as you say, by giving a circumstance bonus (or penalty) to a character after the player tries to convince/intimidate/lie/etc. But this may result in unfairness towards those with big ingame bonuses.
Instead, you could let the player roll, and then roleplay according to the roll.
Third, you could let the player roleplay according to the bonus he has. And then roll if necessary (with opposed rolls for example).
Personally, I prefer the second option, as it isn't unfair towards those with big bonuses or those who are good at convincing/intimidating irl. Also, it creates fun roleplaying situations.
Pretty much any privatized stuff is cool, just think of mercenaries and other paramilitary organisations. They get to choose their equipment easier than armyfolks, and often have access to better stuff than armyfolks.
The focus was taking out an enemy in a factory that a corporation didn't want to go public with. The soldiers encountered aliens and I was using Cyberpunk's Fear system. Where you gain Fear Points that build up as Negatives against your WIL checks...
On that note, maybe I will have to come up with d20 Modern FEAR system!
now that would be slick...
d20 Fear Factor
------------------------------
Character recieves a temporary stat called Fear Factor. This represent the current amount of fear build-up during the course of a single gaming session.
Fear Factor builds as Wil saves are failed during situations experienced in encounters. As fear factor rises, the character becomes shaken and eventually terrified and possibly snaps.
Tables will describe resulting effects of terror and modifiers/penalties suffered for fear checks made and status levels of fear obtained by the character.
Character must roll a fear check against the following situations:
Witness to vampire feeding - DC Modifier +4
Witness to unknown alien life - +8
Witness to horrific death - +4
Witness to supernatural event - +8
...etc
Character rolls Will against DC 10 + modifiers
Success indicates character takes no fear factor points and is stable.
Failure indicates character takes as many fear factor points as he/she failed thier will save check. (example bob witnesses an alien vampire feeding on his cat ..horrible I know!.. bob has to make a will save vs DC 22, bob rolls total of 12, fails by 10, bob is terribly shaken and now has 10 fear factor points for the duration of the game session and he wets his pants).
Fear Factor points are reduced by 10 for each full days rest.
Action points can be used to reduce fear factor.
I use Unearthed Arcana's Sanity System instead, and count on roleplay from my player's side to represent fear. Until now, they haven't met anything crazily fearsome, so...
lol, naw I'll have to read the SRD on status regarding fear and shaken etc.
But you just make a table for fear points ranging from like so:
0-10 No effect, bad scary movie..
10-15 Stunned, gosh that was freaky..oh well.
15-20 Shaken, -2 to everything due to irrational concerns of what may happen to you.
20-30 Spooked, you got the heebeegeebee's (technical term) and take a -4 on everything you do. Yep its hard to tie your shoes now because your so scared.
30-40 Terrified, you flee from the source of danger and get as far as you can. Not quietly either, you scream...and trip (if your female you will definately do this more)... Cant really focus enough to take your SATs so you will take a -6 to all rolls
50+ FEAR, you are so stricken with terror you cannot move, you are likely to pass out from it (which may help if you were scared by a bear). You wet your pants (officially), and wish you had a change of underwear. You become paralyzed if you are still conscious. Grow a spine.
something like that...
'must've been a helluva scary bear though. :D
Ill have to whip up a PDF for people to use if they want to introduce some stresss/fear into their games.
Stress is what the original ruleset I have is based on...combat stress..getting shot etc...and eventually you crack.
But there is additional stuff like whats above for being scared of things. I dunno, If you have a setting where you want to make the players feel the effects of horror more than failing a save and running away these rules will hinder them and slow them down and make them prone to ....bears
Right now Im almost done finishing the New Mecha d20 rules. Got rid of all that british language in there and spellchecked it and formatted it..now Im adding art..hope to be done tomarrow..
J/K
I think your fear system is good, and definetely deserves a .pdf, and more bears.
The CombatStress thing, is that the one found on the Wizards - d20 Modern website?
1) The GM needs to roleplay. Players take their cues from the GM - so you need to roleplay. Ham it up with NPCs and the players will respond in kind, it may take a few sessions to get the swing of this, but they will.
I agree with this totally, and would also expand it a bit. The GM needs to design encounters and adventures that promote roleplaying. Mysteries, like solving murders or whatever, tend to encourage creativity and roleplaying more than military missions (kill the npc, steal the top secret weapon, etc). This is why CoC tends to have a reputation for being role playing heavy. Combat is infrequent, and usually deadly, the game encourages role playing by killing you most of the time you need to resort to violence. Possibly more realistic than D20 Modern's fairly heroic, survivable combat system.
Some players will bore of combat-less games, but for the most part, if you want to encourage role playing, reduce the combat and throw in some varied encounters and things will happen naturally.
I pretty well concure with most of the statements, but also wanted to lend my experience.
Any veteran player should not be blaming a system for lack of role-playing. Some systems do have more dependencies on skills/powers than others creating an environement of kill/roll, but that doesn't mean that less role-playing happens by default.
I understand their frustrations with systems, I still play 1st edition AD&D, but I also enjoy d20 (although I prefer the newest system). The 2nd post said it well enough, if there is a lack of role-playing look at your DM & Players 1st, systems are like TV sets, they don't change the show that much.
The newest system of d20?
I've heard this so many times. Some players are biased just because its a Wotc (former TSR) game.
Nope. IIRC, then-TSR put out some modern-genre games, from Gangbuster to Top Secret and fans of those games have no problem roleplaying them.
The stigma is the rules mechanics being closely associated to D&D. Some see it as a problem, some (like me) don't.