Saga/4.0 Skills - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Saga/4.0 Skills

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
DwarfFighter
Dec 27, 2008 5:47:37 Has anyone tried some house rules to change the skill points' based skill system of d20 Modern to something similar to that of Saga?

I'd really like to simplify NPC creation, and selecting a set of trained skills is a hell of a lot quicker than working out skill points and assigning them. I guess I could put together a system for NPCs only, but I don't like the idea of the PCs and the NPCs being subject to different set of rules on such a basic level.

-DF
#2
Cyber-Dave
Dec 27, 2008 14:43:33 I did, once. Then I decided, screw it... I'm just going to use SWSE to run Modern themed games (and not Star Wars games).
#3
j0lt
Dec 28, 2008 4:30:14 It kinda works for a really heroic/cinematic action game, but I find that I want more crunch with my d20 Modern.
When I play Saga, it feels okay most of the time (except when the skill overlap is kinda strangely obvious and doesn't make a whole lot of sense). One example of where I don't think it works is with Use The Force. It's basically an attack roll, but doesn't advance even remotely the same as regular attacks.
The skills points are very front heavy (you can be trained and focused at 1st level), but base attack advances at a more even pace, which creates some disparity that I don't really like.
#4
DwarfFighter
Dec 29, 2008 2:48:44 It's a good point about the skills being front-loaded. How about this:

1) Retain the full set of skills.
2) Each Heroic class gives allows you to train in a number of class skills as indicated by the skill points (i.e. 3 plus Int bonus for the Strong Hero). Improving Int will allow the character to train in additional skills.
3) The character's skill value is the key ability modifier + his character level.
4) For a trained skill the character adds +4 to the skill value.

Keep the current "skill focus" feats such as Educated and Stealthy instead of adding a generic Skill Focus feat like in Saga.

This approach is fairly equal to the approach I see for a lot of characters (PCs and NPCs): putting all their skill points in a select few skills. The only real difference is that the Trained bonus should perhaps be a +3 instead.

I can see this breaking down as characters want to expand their repertoire of skills rather than seeing the skills they selected at level 1 improve from +5 to +24 at level 20.

-DF
#5
Cyber-Dave
Dec 29, 2008 13:29:13 One of the things I really like about the SAGA skill set is that it reduces the maximum possible skill bonus. In order to get around the problem of front loaded skills I use the following house rule: Skill training and skill focus no longer grant a flat +5 bonus upon being taken. Instead, the bonus they grant depends on a characters level. The bonus is +1 for characters with 1 to 4 levels, +2 for characters with 5 to 8 levels, +3 for characters with 9 to 12 levels, +4 for characters with 13 to 16 levels, and +5 for characters with 17 to 20 levels.
#6
j0lt
Dec 29, 2008 19:53:54
One of the things I really like about the SAGA skill set is that it reduces the maximum possible skill bonus. In order to get around the problem of front loaded skills I use the following house rule: Skill training and skill focus no longer grant a flat +5 bonus upon being taken. Instead, the bonus they grant depends on a characters level. The bonus is +1 for characters with 1 to 4 levels, +2 for characters with 5 to 8 levels, +3 for characters with 9 to 12 levels, +4 for characters with 13 to 16 levels, and +5 for characters with 17 to 20 levels.

Ahh, scaling bonuses! Now why didn't I think of that?
#7
DwarfFighter
Dec 30, 2008 3:59:40
One of the things I really like about the SAGA skill set is that it reduces the maximum possible skill bonus. In order to get around the problem of front loaded skills I use the following house rule: Skill training and skill focus no longer grant a flat +5 bonus upon being taken. Instead, the bonus they grant depends on a characters level. The bonus is +1 for characters with 1 to 4 levels, +2 for characters with 5 to 8 levels, +3 for characters with 9 to 12 levels, +4 for characters with 13 to 16 levels, and +5 for characters with 17 to 20 levels.

Are you sure you scale both Skill Training and Skill Focus?

If I did that, I can pretty much predict what my players would do: They'd hold off on taking feats for training and focus until they reached level 9 at the very least.

Furthermore I would likely have to scale down skill-based challenges for low-level characters to compensate for the fact that their skills would be insignificantly better than making a straight Ability check (since they won't bother taking Skill Focus).

I'd rather keep Skill Training as-is and have Skill Focus add +1 per character level up to +5.

-DF
#8
Cyber-Dave
Jan 02, 2009 14:22:58 Yes, I am sure I chose to scale both training and focus. This does require that I modify the DC of skill checks appropriately as well. I find that modifying the DC of skill checks is an easy fix (which likewise makes the +1 or +2 bonus one gets at early levels incredibly important). On the other hand, without making this change, I find that use the force skill checks (for powers) are horribly overpowered.
#9
j0lt
Jan 03, 2009 1:01:50 Or focused Stealth vs untrained Perception even?
#10
DwarfFighter
Jan 27, 2009 12:00:40 Having given the subject some more thought, I'm considering running with this:

Skill checks and ability checks are worked out as follows:

Key ability modifier + 1/2 character level (round down) + 1d20.

Add +4 trained bonus if you are trained in the skill.
Add +1 competence bonus if you are trained in the skill and the skill is one of your occupation skills.

A character can gain skill training as detailed below. Bear in mind that the character's current class skills is determined by the level he is advancing in and those skills selected for his starting occupation.

1) At level 1 the character gains a number of trained skills determined by his class. These skills must be selected from the character's starting class skill list. The character will have a minimum of 1 trained skill regardless of class and Int modifier. Human characters start with an additional trained skill, effectively a minimum of 2 skills.

[INDENT]Strong: 2 + Int modifier
Fast:4 + Int modifier
Tough: 2 + Int modifier
Smart: 8 + Int modifier
Dedicated: 4 + Int modifier
Charismatic: 6 + Int modifier[/INDENT]

(In effect, characters gain a number of trained skills equal to the number of skill points at each "additional level". Skills provided by advanced and prestige classes should be easy to extrapolate...)

2) If the character's Int modifier increases then the character gains a new trained class skill selected from his current class skill list.

3) If the character takes a level in a class that offers more starting trained skills than the character currently possesses then he gains a new trained skill selected from his current class skill list.

4) The character can take the Skill Training feat detailed below.

[INDENT]Skill Training
You have additional training in two skills.
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Select two skills from your current class skill list. You are considered trained in these skills.
Normal: Without this feat your number of trained skills is governed by your Intelligence bonus and your selected class.
Special: Discount these skills when determining if a taking a level in a class will grant you an additional trained skill. This feat can be taken as a bonus feat by any character.[/INDENT]

In those cases where the number of ranks in a skill is a prerequisite, consider instead the fact that the character is trained and his current character level.

[INDENT]1-4 ranks: Trained
5 ranks: Trained, character level 2+
6 ranks: Trained, character level 3+
Etc.[/INDENT]

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 DwarfFighter Dec 27, 2008 5:47:37	Has anyone tried some house rules to change the skill points' based skill system of d20 Modern to something similar to that of Saga? I'd really like to simplify NPC creation, and selecting a set of trained skills is a hell of a lot quicker than working out skill points and assigning them. I guess I could put together a system for NPCs only, but I don't like the idea of the PCs and the NPCs being subject to different set of rules on such a basic level. -DF
#2 Cyber-Dave Dec 27, 2008 14:43:33	I did, once. Then I decided, screw it... I'm just going to use SWSE to run Modern themed games (and not Star Wars games).
#3 j0lt Dec 28, 2008 4:30:14	It kinda works for a really heroic/cinematic action game, but I find that I want more crunch with my d20 Modern. When I play Saga, it feels okay most of the time (except when the skill overlap is kinda strangely obvious and doesn't make a whole lot of sense). One example of where I don't think it works is with Use The Force. It's basically an attack roll, but doesn't advance even remotely the same as regular attacks. The skills points are very front heavy (you can be trained and focused at 1st level), but base attack advances at a more even pace, which creates some disparity that I don't really like.
#4 DwarfFighter Dec 29, 2008 2:48:44	It's a good point about the skills being front-loaded. How about this: 1) Retain the full set of skills. 2) Each Heroic class gives allows you to train in a number of class skills as indicated by the skill points (i.e. 3 plus Int bonus for the Strong Hero). Improving Int will allow the character to train in additional skills. 3) The character's skill value is the key ability modifier + his character level. 4) For a trained skill the character adds +4 to the skill value. Keep the current "skill focus" feats such as Educated and Stealthy instead of adding a generic Skill Focus feat like in Saga. This approach is fairly equal to the approach I see for a lot of characters (PCs and NPCs): putting all their skill points in a select few skills. The only real difference is that the Trained bonus should perhaps be a +3 instead. I can see this breaking down as characters want to expand their repertoire of skills rather than seeing the skills they selected at level 1 improve from +5 to +24 at level 20. -DF
#5 Cyber-Dave Dec 29, 2008 13:29:13	One of the things I really like about the SAGA skill set is that it reduces the maximum possible skill bonus. In order to get around the problem of front loaded skills I use the following house rule: Skill training and skill focus no longer grant a flat +5 bonus upon being taken. Instead, the bonus they grant depends on a characters level. The bonus is +1 for characters with 1 to 4 levels, +2 for characters with 5 to 8 levels, +3 for characters with 9 to 12 levels, +4 for characters with 13 to 16 levels, and +5 for characters with 17 to 20 levels.
#6 j0lt Dec 29, 2008 19:53:54	One of the things I really like about the SAGA skill set is that it reduces the maximum possible skill bonus. In order to get around the problem of front loaded skills I use the following house rule: Skill training and skill focus no longer grant a flat +5 bonus upon being taken. Instead, the bonus they grant depends on a characters level. The bonus is +1 for characters with 1 to 4 levels, +2 for characters with 5 to 8 levels, +3 for characters with 9 to 12 levels, +4 for characters with 13 to 16 levels, and +5 for characters with 17 to 20 levels. Ahh, scaling bonuses! Now why didn't I think of that?
#7 DwarfFighter Dec 30, 2008 3:59:40	One of the things I really like about the SAGA skill set is that it reduces the maximum possible skill bonus. In order to get around the problem of front loaded skills I use the following house rule: Skill training and skill focus no longer grant a flat +5 bonus upon being taken. Instead, the bonus they grant depends on a characters level. The bonus is +1 for characters with 1 to 4 levels, +2 for characters with 5 to 8 levels, +3 for characters with 9 to 12 levels, +4 for characters with 13 to 16 levels, and +5 for characters with 17 to 20 levels. Are you sure you scale both Skill Training and Skill Focus? If I did that, I can pretty much predict what my players would do: They'd hold off on taking feats for training and focus until they reached level 9 at the very least. Furthermore I would likely have to scale down skill-based challenges for low-level characters to compensate for the fact that their skills would be insignificantly better than making a straight Ability check (since they won't bother taking Skill Focus). I'd rather keep Skill Training as-is and have Skill Focus add +1 per character level up to +5. -DF
#8 Cyber-Dave Jan 02, 2009 14:22:58	Yes, I am sure I chose to scale both training and focus. This does require that I modify the DC of skill checks appropriately as well. I find that modifying the DC of skill checks is an easy fix (which likewise makes the +1 or +2 bonus one gets at early levels incredibly important). On the other hand, without making this change, I find that use the force skill checks (for powers) are horribly overpowered.
#9 j0lt Jan 03, 2009 1:01:50	Or focused Stealth vs untrained Perception even?
#10 DwarfFighter Jan 27, 2009 12:00:40	Having given the subject some more thought, I'm considering running with this: Skill checks and ability checks are worked out as follows: Key ability modifier + 1/2 character level (round down) + 1d20. Add +4 trained bonus if you are trained in the skill. Add +1 competence bonus if you are trained in the skill and the skill is one of your occupation skills. A character can gain skill training as detailed below. Bear in mind that the character's current class skills is determined by the level he is advancing in and those skills selected for his starting occupation. 1) At level 1 the character gains a number of trained skills determined by his class. These skills must be selected from the character's starting class skill list. The character will have a minimum of 1 trained skill regardless of class and Int modifier. Human characters start with an additional trained skill, effectively a minimum of 2 skills. [INDENT]Strong: 2 + Int modifier Fast:4 + Int modifier Tough: 2 + Int modifier Smart: 8 + Int modifier Dedicated: 4 + Int modifier Charismatic: 6 + Int modifier[/INDENT] (In effect, characters gain a number of trained skills equal to the number of skill points at each "additional level". Skills provided by advanced and prestige classes should be easy to extrapolate...) 2) If the character's Int modifier increases then the character gains a new trained class skill selected from his current class skill list. 3) If the character takes a level in a class that offers more starting trained skills than the character currently possesses then he gains a new trained skill selected from his current class skill list. 4) The character can take the Skill Training feat detailed below. [INDENT]Skill Training You have additional training in two skills. Prerequisites: None. Benefit: Select two skills from your current class skill list. You are considered trained in these skills. Normal: Without this feat your number of trained skills is governed by your Intelligence bonus and your selected class. Special: Discount these skills when determining if a taking a level in a class will grant you an additional trained skill. This feat can be taken as a bonus feat by any character.[/INDENT] In those cases where the number of ranks in a skill is a prerequisite, consider instead the fact that the character is trained and his current character level. [INDENT]1-4 ranks: Trained 5 ranks: Trained, character level 2+ 6 ranks: Trained, character level 3+ Etc.[/INDENT]