shotgun question - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

shotgun question

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
brokenoakleys
Mar 11, 2008 18:27:27 My apologies if this has been addressed before, but I had a question on home brewed shotgun rules. Does anyone find the shotgun stats in the core book accurate? They don't seem to reflect the fact that it would be easier to hit someone with a shotgun (at close range anyway). Does anyone have any house rules to reflect this?

My personal experience is with rifles and handguns, not shotguns, but from what I've read, 80-100% of the shot will hit in a 30 inch circle at 20 yards(depending on the choke, which controls the spread of the shot). It seems like that would make it easier to hit a target. Any thoughts from folks with shotgun experience?
#2
backstabbist
Mar 11, 2008 22:15:16 A good place to start is the BoltAction thread in Johannixx's sig, a good primer for all the shotgun talk since then.

There are plenty of ideas on the board to do shotguns better, I'm sure more cool links will follow this post.
#3
tema69
Mar 12, 2008 6:48:09 In our game, we increase the damage the damage to 4d3/4d4/4d6 (16/20, 12 and 10 gauge, respectively). Armour grants Damage Reduction, and the shotgun damage is dealt against the DR separately. This result in poor penetration.
(we actually play with an increase in weapon damage resulting in a 12 gauge dealing 6d6)
We of course use Johanixx's rule for bolt action / pump-action weapons.
#4
johannixx
Mar 12, 2008 10:19:58 See the archived thread in my sig. d20 Modern raped shotguns, but they can be easily fixed.
#5
psininja
Mar 12, 2008 17:47:00 The Big Bang series also has some good shotgun rules.
#6
bitter_thorn
Mar 12, 2008 20:53:15 Where would we find that?

The Big Bang series also has some good shotgun rules.

#7
aspiring_lichlord
Mar 14, 2008 17:22:01 I think a simple quick fix would be to consider the listed damage as slug ammunition, for buckshot add one die to the damage and reduce damage by one die for each range increment after the first, birdshot uses standard damage (Future Tech, -1 die from buckshot) and potentially deal damage to targets within five feet of the line of fire (line between target and gun) equal to damage at that range minus four (min. of 1)

modifying the choke will change damage reduction for shot ammo to minus one damage point for each range increment beyond the first, and targets cannot be hit by the spreading shot until two range increments (an RI of 30 means targets adjacent to LoF can't be hit until 35 feet)

any collateral targets of a shotgun (those lying in the five feet to either side of the LoF) are potentially hit as if by autofire (i.e. the square is targeted, not the character/creature)

collateral targets lying along the LoF (i.e. standing between the target and gun) will intercept the attack if it can hit defense of 9 (target square minus 1 for being in LoF) plus any dexterity bonus to defense

against buckshot and birdshot armor provides the normal equipment bonus to defense and grants damage reduction equal to its equipment bonus to defense, a buckshot or birdshot blast taken within the first range increment doubles the shotgun's threat range and deals damage to the armor in addition to damaging the target (i.e. roll two hits and apply half to the armor)

hope this is easy enough to understand
#8
brokenoakleys
Mar 15, 2008 13:22:27 After Speaking to someone who knows a lot about shotguns, I'm inclined to agree with Aspiring Lichlord. At close ranges, per my shotgun wielding friend, the spread isn't much bigger than a regular bullet (or slug). At fifteen yards, you get a spread about the size of a very large pizza. After that, the spread continues, but even one piece of shot can do the same damage as a low caliber bullet.

I'm thinking of doing something similar to what LichLord is suggesting, but with shorter range increments, like 10 or 15 yards. Thoughts?
#9
aspiring_lichlord
Mar 15, 2008 13:24:57 dude, 10~15 yards is equal to 30~45 feet, the RI of a shotgun is about 30ft.

unless you meant feet instead of yards...
#10
johannixx
Mar 15, 2008 14:08:12 It depends on the choke, the barrel modifications, and the shot. My shotgun, with a standard 18" improved cylinder barrel, will keep a full pattern of Federal's tactical buck (w/ flitecontrol wad) on a human target out to 25 yards or so. So will any shotgun with a VangComp barrel, or a choked shotgun. The difference is that a Vang barrel will shoot slugs just as accurately.

With normal buckshot, with a normal IC barrel, you will start to see pattern density decrease beyond 10 yards or so. It's still almost impossible to hit multiple targets on purpose, and even if you do, the likelihood of a little .32-caliber pellet hitting something vital is nil past the effective range of the shotgun.

Personally, I wouldn't use buckshot past 25 yards if I could help it, unless I had a Vang barrel or the new Federal load (or both). Slugs are good out to 200 yards or so if you know how to compensate for bullet drop. Birdshot's useless as a combat load past 25 yards, period.

30' is a good range increment. Give shot rounds 5 range increments, max, just like thrown weapons. That limits you to 50 yards for buckshot. Add a VangComp barrel, or Federal tactical buck, and you gain a 50% Equipment bonus to your range increment (they don't stack, I've tried Fed Tac out of a VC barrel, and it didn't give it any better pattern density than either used alone). I wouldn't allow Far Shot to be used with shot loads, but I would use it for slugs.

I'd double the range increment for slug rounds, to 60', but I'd still use 5 range increments instead of 10. That gives you a base max range of 100 yards. Add Far Shot and a scope, and you have a max range of 200 yards, which is about right for shotgun slugs. Birdshot would have a 15' range increment with the same rules as buckshot (no benefit from Far Shot or scopes, 5 range increments max, etc).

As for damage, either buckshot or a slug should be 2d10. Birdshot deals 2d8 damage. Slugs act like normal bullets, i.e. -2 to hit per range increment past the first. Buckshot rounds give -1 to hit and damage per range increment past the first. Birdshot rounds give no penalties to hit for range, but -2 damage per range increment past the first.

Adding a Modified choke prevents slug use, but adds a5' Equipment bonus to the range increment. Adding a Full choke also prevents slug use, but adds a 50% Equipment bonus to the range increment.
#11
brokenoakleys
Mar 15, 2008 15:24:14 Here is a link with disperal pattern:

http://www.firearmsid.com/A_distshotpatt.htm

WARNING: graphic/gross picture at top of page that shows difference between close range shot and medium range shot.

Basically says at 5 to 10 feet, dispersal pattern of shot is very small, at about 30 feet you get a wide disperal pattern.

Johanixx, If I am reading your post correctly, you are saying a -1 penalty per range increment for buckshot instead of the normal two? So someone shooting a target 90 feet away with a shotgun loaded w/ buckshot would get -2 to hit instead of -4?

Lich, I did mean to say yards instead of feet: I'm basing on what the guy told me, not the rules in the game.
#12
winternova
Mar 15, 2008 17:16:39 Whether accurate or not, shotgun wielders in my campaigns enjoy the benefits of the point blank shot feat when within the shotgun's first rage increment. Those benefits don't stack with the actual feat, however.
#13
brokenoakleys
Mar 15, 2008 18:28:56 I was thinking of this for my campaign, based on the web page I cited above and the comments from everyone:

Less than 30 feet: no change from the rules. This reflects that the shotgun shot spread hasn't started yet.

30 to 60 feet: +2 to hit, -1 damage. This reflects that there will be some spread (about the size of a large pizza) making it easier to hit, but b/c there is a spread, less damage.

60 to 90 feet: +0 to hit, -2 damage.

90 to 120 feet: -2 to hit, -4 damage.

120 to 150 feet: -4 to hit, -6 damage.

150 feet plus: can't shoot (well, you can, you'll just miss).

The five range increments limit takes Johanixx's suggestion that shotguns be limited to five range increments.

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions? Flames?
#14
aspiring_lichlord
Mar 16, 2008 11:24:19 these range rules'll have to be made universal so it can be applied to to any type and size of shotgun (anyone forgeting that 120mm Abrams shell in that other shotgun thread? that and any mecha shotguns, or would that be shotcannon?)
#15
terjonwh
Mar 20, 2008 12:42:40
these range rules'll have to be made universal so it can be applied to to any type and size of shotgun (anyone forgeting that 120mm Abrams shell in that other shotgun thread? that and any mecha shotguns, or would that be shotcannon?)

I think you probably need separate rules for any sort of canister shot fired from a canon.
#16
ghosttown
Mar 20, 2008 13:59:24 In my game I handle gun damage based on what kind of armor it is hitting. For instance a shotgun does double damage to an unarmored opponent but half damage to someone wearing armor. AP rounds negate armor and so on..

As for ease of hitting someone, I guess I never thought about it. Yes, it is easier to hit something with a shotgun than say with a 9mm but I would consider the person using a 9mm to be using his sight where as a shotgun is fired with both eyes open and a bit more intuitive targeting.
#17
terjonwh
Mar 20, 2008 14:41:26
where as a shotgun is fired with both eyes open and a bit more intuitive targeting.

Shotguns come with sights for a reason.
#18
nodaisho
Mar 20, 2008 18:09:20 Some of them come with normal sights, some just come with a front bead. Some don't even have that, but the one I have seen that doesn't was through a flood, it might have rusted off. Or it could have been sawed off, I suppose, it was long enough not to be NFA, but it wasn't a 30 inch barrel or anything.
#19
johannixx
Mar 22, 2008 1:50:45 Shotguns generally have four types of sighting systems:

1. Bead front, no rear. This is the common hunting shotgun sighting system. It's extremely fast, but not very accurate when firing slugs at any kind of range past CQB distances.

2. Rifle sights. This is the common 'slug gun' sighting system. Accurate for slug shots, but not all that fast.

3. Ghost ring sights. These are the 'standard' combat sights, with 80% of the speed of a bead, and 80% of the accuracy of rifle sights. I can easily make slug hits on man-size targets out to 150 yards with them.

4. Optical sights. The latest fad is putting Picatinny rails on shotguns and mounting red dot sights, with the AimPoint T1 Micro being the most preferred option. I'm not convinced of the utility of the AimPoint just yet, but I haven't had enough trigger time on the system to be sure. I don't have the spare scratch lying around to trick out an 870 with a rail, a LaRue short mount, and an AimPoint T1 Micro.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 brokenoakleys Mar 11, 2008 18:27:27	My apologies if this has been addressed before, but I had a question on home brewed shotgun rules. Does anyone find the shotgun stats in the core book accurate? They don't seem to reflect the fact that it would be easier to hit someone with a shotgun (at close range anyway). Does anyone have any house rules to reflect this? My personal experience is with rifles and handguns, not shotguns, but from what I've read, 80-100% of the shot will hit in a 30 inch circle at 20 yards(depending on the choke, which controls the spread of the shot). It seems like that would make it easier to hit a target. Any thoughts from folks with shotgun experience?
#2 backstabbist Mar 11, 2008 22:15:16	A good place to start is the BoltAction thread in Johannixx's sig, a good primer for all the shotgun talk since then. There are plenty of ideas on the board to do shotguns better, I'm sure more cool links will follow this post.
#3 tema69 Mar 12, 2008 6:48:09	In our game, we increase the damage the damage to 4d3/4d4/4d6 (16/20, 12 and 10 gauge, respectively). Armour grants Damage Reduction, and the shotgun damage is dealt against the DR separately. This result in poor penetration. (we actually play with an increase in weapon damage resulting in a 12 gauge dealing 6d6) We of course use Johanixx's rule for bolt action / pump-action weapons.
#4 johannixx Mar 12, 2008 10:19:58	See the archived thread in my sig. d20 Modern raped shotguns, but they can be easily fixed.
#5 psininja Mar 12, 2008 17:47:00	The Big Bang series also has some good shotgun rules.
#6 bitter_thorn Mar 12, 2008 20:53:15	Where would we find that? The Big Bang series also has some good shotgun rules.
#7 aspiring_lichlord Mar 14, 2008 17:22:01	I think a simple quick fix would be to consider the listed damage as slug ammunition, for buckshot add one die to the damage and reduce damage by one die for each range increment after the first, birdshot uses standard damage (Future Tech, -1 die from buckshot) and potentially deal damage to targets within five feet of the line of fire (line between target and gun) equal to damage at that range minus four (min. of 1) modifying the choke will change damage reduction for shot ammo to minus one damage point for each range increment beyond the first, and targets cannot be hit by the spreading shot until two range increments (an RI of 30 means targets adjacent to LoF can't be hit until 35 feet) any collateral targets of a shotgun (those lying in the five feet to either side of the LoF) are potentially hit as if by autofire (i.e. the square is targeted, not the character/creature) collateral targets lying along the LoF (i.e. standing between the target and gun) will intercept the attack if it can hit defense of 9 (target square minus 1 for being in LoF) plus any dexterity bonus to defense against buckshot and birdshot armor provides the normal equipment bonus to defense and grants damage reduction equal to its equipment bonus to defense, a buckshot or birdshot blast taken within the first range increment doubles the shotgun's threat range and deals damage to the armor in addition to damaging the target (i.e. roll two hits and apply half to the armor) hope this is easy enough to understand
#8 brokenoakleys Mar 15, 2008 13:22:27	After Speaking to someone who knows a lot about shotguns, I'm inclined to agree with Aspiring Lichlord. At close ranges, per my shotgun wielding friend, the spread isn't much bigger than a regular bullet (or slug). At fifteen yards, you get a spread about the size of a very large pizza. After that, the spread continues, but even one piece of shot can do the same damage as a low caliber bullet. I'm thinking of doing something similar to what LichLord is suggesting, but with shorter range increments, like 10 or 15 yards. Thoughts?
#9 aspiring_lichlord Mar 15, 2008 13:24:57	dude, 10~15 yards is equal to 30~45 feet, the RI of a shotgun is about 30ft. unless you meant feet instead of yards...
#10 johannixx Mar 15, 2008 14:08:12	It depends on the choke, the barrel modifications, and the shot. My shotgun, with a standard 18" improved cylinder barrel, will keep a full pattern of Federal's tactical buck (w/ flitecontrol wad) on a human target out to 25 yards or so. So will any shotgun with a VangComp barrel, or a choked shotgun. The difference is that a Vang barrel will shoot slugs just as accurately. With normal buckshot, with a normal IC barrel, you will start to see pattern density decrease beyond 10 yards or so. It's still almost impossible to hit multiple targets on purpose, and even if you do, the likelihood of a little .32-caliber pellet hitting something vital is nil past the effective range of the shotgun. Personally, I wouldn't use buckshot past 25 yards if I could help it, unless I had a Vang barrel or the new Federal load (or both). Slugs are good out to 200 yards or so if you know how to compensate for bullet drop. Birdshot's useless as a combat load past 25 yards, period. 30' is a good range increment. Give shot rounds 5 range increments, max, just like thrown weapons. That limits you to 50 yards for buckshot. Add a VangComp barrel, or Federal tactical buck, and you gain a 50% Equipment bonus to your range increment (they don't stack, I've tried Fed Tac out of a VC barrel, and it didn't give it any better pattern density than either used alone). I wouldn't allow Far Shot to be used with shot loads, but I would use it for slugs. I'd double the range increment for slug rounds, to 60', but I'd still use 5 range increments instead of 10. That gives you a base max range of 100 yards. Add Far Shot and a scope, and you have a max range of 200 yards, which is about right for shotgun slugs. Birdshot would have a 15' range increment with the same rules as buckshot (no benefit from Far Shot or scopes, 5 range increments max, etc). As for damage, either buckshot or a slug should be 2d10. Birdshot deals 2d8 damage. Slugs act like normal bullets, i.e. -2 to hit per range increment past the first. Buckshot rounds give -1 to hit and damage per range increment past the first. Birdshot rounds give no penalties to hit for range, but -2 damage per range increment past the first. Adding a Modified choke prevents slug use, but adds a5' Equipment bonus to the range increment. Adding a Full choke also prevents slug use, but adds a 50% Equipment bonus to the range increment.
#11 brokenoakleys Mar 15, 2008 15:24:14	Here is a link with disperal pattern: http://www.firearmsid.com/A_distshotpatt.htm WARNING: graphic/gross picture at top of page that shows difference between close range shot and medium range shot. Basically says at 5 to 10 feet, dispersal pattern of shot is very small, at about 30 feet you get a wide disperal pattern. Johanixx, If I am reading your post correctly, you are saying a -1 penalty per range increment for buckshot instead of the normal two? So someone shooting a target 90 feet away with a shotgun loaded w/ buckshot would get -2 to hit instead of -4? Lich, I did mean to say yards instead of feet: I'm basing on what the guy told me, not the rules in the game.
#12 winternova Mar 15, 2008 17:16:39	Whether accurate or not, shotgun wielders in my campaigns enjoy the benefits of the point blank shot feat when within the shotgun's first rage increment. Those benefits don't stack with the actual feat, however.
#13 brokenoakleys Mar 15, 2008 18:28:56	I was thinking of this for my campaign, based on the web page I cited above and the comments from everyone: Less than 30 feet: no change from the rules. This reflects that the shotgun shot spread hasn't started yet. 30 to 60 feet: +2 to hit, -1 damage. This reflects that there will be some spread (about the size of a large pizza) making it easier to hit, but b/c there is a spread, less damage. 60 to 90 feet: +0 to hit, -2 damage. 90 to 120 feet: -2 to hit, -4 damage. 120 to 150 feet: -4 to hit, -6 damage. 150 feet plus: can't shoot (well, you can, you'll just miss). The five range increments limit takes Johanixx's suggestion that shotguns be limited to five range increments. Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions? Flames?
#14 aspiring_lichlord Mar 16, 2008 11:24:19	these range rules'll have to be made universal so it can be applied to to any type and size of shotgun (anyone forgeting that 120mm Abrams shell in that other shotgun thread? that and any mecha shotguns, or would that be shotcannon?)
#15 terjonwh Mar 20, 2008 12:42:40	these range rules'll have to be made universal so it can be applied to to any type and size of shotgun (anyone forgeting that 120mm Abrams shell in that other shotgun thread? that and any mecha shotguns, or would that be shotcannon?) I think you probably need separate rules for any sort of canister shot fired from a canon.
#16 ghosttown Mar 20, 2008 13:59:24	In my game I handle gun damage based on what kind of armor it is hitting. For instance a shotgun does double damage to an unarmored opponent but half damage to someone wearing armor. AP rounds negate armor and so on.. As for ease of hitting someone, I guess I never thought about it. Yes, it is easier to hit something with a shotgun than say with a 9mm but I would consider the person using a 9mm to be using his sight where as a shotgun is fired with both eyes open and a bit more intuitive targeting.
#17 terjonwh Mar 20, 2008 14:41:26	where as a shotgun is fired with both eyes open and a bit more intuitive targeting. Shotguns come with sights for a reason.
#18 nodaisho Mar 20, 2008 18:09:20	Some of them come with normal sights, some just come with a front bead. Some don't even have that, but the one I have seen that doesn't was through a flood, it might have rusted off. Or it could have been sawed off, I suppose, it was long enough not to be NFA, but it wasn't a 30 inch barrel or anything.
#19 johannixx Mar 22, 2008 1:50:45	Shotguns generally have four types of sighting systems: 1. Bead front, no rear. This is the common hunting shotgun sighting system. It's extremely fast, but not very accurate when firing slugs at any kind of range past CQB distances. 2. Rifle sights. This is the common 'slug gun' sighting system. Accurate for slug shots, but not all that fast. 3. Ghost ring sights. These are the 'standard' combat sights, with 80% of the speed of a bead, and 80% of the accuracy of rifle sights. I can easily make slug hits on man-size targets out to 150 yards with them. 4. Optical sights. The latest fad is putting Picatinny rails on shotguns and mounting red dot sights, with the AimPoint T1 Micro being the most preferred option. I'm not convinced of the utility of the AimPoint just yet, but I haven't had enough trigger time on the system to be sure. I don't have the spare scratch lying around to trick out an 870 with a rail, a LaRue short mount, and an AimPoint T1 Micro.