Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 slayer_5 Mar 24, 2009 18:26:39	Ok, I have never played a d20 Modern game with Vanilla armour rules. They just seem wrong. Like a leather coat giving you a 5% better chance at avoiding a tank blast. Or the fact that each feat only gives you +2 AC (over not having the feat), so like, it is 3 feats, for +6 AC. Or the fact that you don't "not get hit" with guns the way you do in D&D with swordswhen wearing armour. So is it agreed the Armour rules are lame, or should I try playing with them Vanilla. Here are the rules I like... Armour by default is DR. And the AC given, is the DR given. Proficiency doubles the DR given (So the heavy riot armour is DR 18). The way I see it, if you want to spend 3 feats, then yeah, you should be able to completely ignore assault rifle shots from someone who has spent nothing. Critique?
#2 backstabbist Mar 24, 2009 19:34:53	ohhhhh, so close You need to integrate into your idea that modern Medium & Heavy armor is usually a base of nij2 or nij3a with the full rated nij3 or nij4 strike plates... the true value of the armor is over a small area... very important, but small. That means while a med-heavy armor set will can stop a 223 or AK, it dosnt do so all over- it is not total encapsulation in nij3. So most games we would see where the bullet hit to get the coverage for that area, since D&D/Modern is locationless hits we have to just average in the low coverage areas to have a lower DR than what encapsulation would give: NIJ4 can stop 30-06Black but not all over so a bit of 30-06Black should go thru If 80% of your body was covered in nij4, we would say you had 80% DR20 = effective DR16 The other 20% is in DR10 nij2 soft, so that is another eDR2 for total effective DR18 This is of course looking at the White Duraplast nij4 & Black Kevlar nij2 suits worn by Stormtroopers a d20Modern nij4 armor has very little actual area covered by that nij4 plate, and a lot of nij2 or 3a area, so we are looking at maybe efDR15 cfor the Equip+8 suit. So, yeah, what you said sounds not too bad, assuming you change the AP Ammo rule to give +1 to +4 for various gun power tiers ... +1 for 2d4, +3 for 2d8, +4 for 2d10 against the Armor DR (or would that be -1 to -4 againstthe armor 6 to 16 DR's )
#3 slayer_5 Mar 24, 2009 19:47:52	Crap, I forgot the second half of my armour post. Light Armour protects against melee. Medium Armour protects against pistols and melee Heavy Armour protects against rifles, pistols, and melee. Certain AP things, will do more damage, Five-seVen and p90 will be 2d4, but capable of bypassing Medium armour.
#4 TheRealOrion Mar 24, 2009 20:03:30	IF waht you're after is vaguely-realistic ballistic rules (which it looks like you are), then monkey away at the Defence rules! (Not "AC" in Modern) If, like me, you're in it for modern-fantasy/action-hero games (superheroes mostly, see my sig), then Defence rules as written work pretty well: locationless, abstract, and high-level characters have mountains of HPs. It's really about how you play your game, and finding the right house-tweaks to get what you want out of it.
#5 Waylan_Wolf Mar 24, 2009 20:28:04	I definitely prefer armor as DR instead of an equipment bonus to defense. but I tend to keep it simple with a 1 to 1 ratio.... so a leather jacket provides DR 1 instead of +1 to defense... Its not totally realistic, but then again the game system isn't realistic either...
#6 TheRealOrion Mar 24, 2009 21:23:34	The trouble with DR is that it's a bit too reliable. It just does subtract exactly X number of HPs every time. There's less of a chance for a freak, lucky shot to just plain take you out, which is an element of risk that I like. Of course, D&D-style AC (Defence) is part of a whole integrated system (attack, defence, damage, hit points), and once you start monkeying with any one of those things, you have to adjust all the others to make. If all protective equipment (armour) has a DR score, then is there still Defence at all? Do you still roll to hit, just without equipment bonuses to hit? In that case, you'll have way more "hits," but those hits will do less damage. Also, players will start to either favour Defence scores or DR scores. That's not bad, but it is a different way to play the game. In RAW, you either raise your Defence through equipment or skills (feats, dodging, etc.), but it's basically the same effect. With what you're proposing, equipment reduces your damage by a set amount, and skills reduce your chances of getting hit at all. That's a big change. Not saying that's bad! Just describing it as I see it.
#7 narukagami Mar 24, 2009 21:39:18	So implement some rule where crits have an effect on an armor's DR. If you want good armor as DR rules that balances weapon effectiveness, armor effectiveness, and keeps attack rolls vs defense scores relevant, all without armor or defense overshadowing one or the other. Check out the Conan d20 rules.
#8 layla_minogue Mar 24, 2009 22:51:02	I like the simple armor rules for the sake of keeping the game going at a brisk pace. Overly specific armor rules was one thing that kept me from connecting strongly with Advanced D&D and I have no desire to go back to that. I prefer story-driven action to the hardcore nitty-gritty of a more complex combat system.
#9 TheRealOrion Mar 25, 2009 0:59:13	So implement some rule where crits have an effect on an armor's DR. Yeah, I could get behind that. That could work. So just to throw something out there: crits do double damage, but half to the wearer and half to the armour. They might have to ignore the DR of the armour for that to mean anything, though. Logically, this could also build the costs of repairing your armour into the game. If it's taking part of the damage, you're going to need to fix it up between fights.
#10 rhialto Mar 25, 2009 1:39:24	I've implemented a rule where a natural 20 on the attack roll means the damage bypasses any DR from personal body armour, and that, regardless of body armour DR (but not DR from other sources), at least one point of damage always penetrates. This rule is used for any articulated (ie. jointed) armour which has someting squishy inside.
#11 DwarfFighter Mar 25, 2009 3:26:14	The trouble with DR is that it's a bit too reliable. It just does subtract exactly X number of HPs every time. There's less of a chance for a freak, lucky shot to just plain take you out, which is an element of risk that I like. I've considered a variant where armour essentially provides cover and the material it is made of determines damage reduction: Head +1 Body +3 Right Arm +1 Left Arm +1 Right Leg +2 Left Leg +1 The basic idea is that if the attack roll fails to beat (equal to or greater than) your basic defense (10 + class bonus + dex bonus) then it's a miss, otherwise it's a hit. On a hit, if the attack roll fails to beat (equal to or greater than) your defense including armour cover then damage reduction applies, otherwise damage is resolved without applying damage reduction. E.g.: Level 1 Fast Hero: +2 Dex bonus +3 class bonus to defense, wears a leather jacket (+5, DR 1/-). Defense 15/20 DR 1/- (+2 Dex, +3 class / +5 leather jacket) Against the character an attack roll of 14 or less is a clean miss, an attack roll of 15-19 is subject to damage reduction and an attack roll of 20+ is a clean hit. I dropped the project since we don't really need it in our group. A few things that needs work, though... - the numbering is a bit odd since it's based on the Defense value, which is essentially how difficult you are to get hit - it's what your opponent needs to roll. - I haven't developed a system for determining light/medium/heavy armour based on material and degree of cover. - mixed armour materials can be resolved by grouping them at the lower spectrum of the defense values (a low attack roll hits the heaviest armour) - how to deal with area-effect weapons and save-for-half effects -DF