If it's a disaster, like, say, nuclear exchange/war/invasion, probably instantly. I know that's how it was in the hurricanes, and we didn't even get hit that bad.
Yeah... I've got apocalypse plans, in case I'm one of the 30% or something that survives.
Water heaters would stop working as soon as the electricity failed, so you'd be taking cold showers right quick.
Steve
Consider that electricity usage is unlike water usage. There will be more things left ON that will make the grid a power vacuum, unfillable by the wee bit of solar/wind power.... just all the refrigerators that want to run the pump, all at once from the extended outage, in a city will crush the ability of solar
Best bet is the solar plant will trip output breakers to disconnect from the grid, and some folks would have to isolate a small section of the grid that plant can power.
Steve
What? So, you got all the food they grew this year... terrific. But Mongo, what are we going to eat next year?
"Next year Mongo kill farmers & take.... oh. No farmers..... Mongo kill us all."
Yes, in 16 months the few humans left on this plannet will die... nice going Mongo
The problem is not taking from the Amish, it is surviving the Amish's friends & neighbors that are a gun toting redneck bunch of countryboys fed on Amish grain... Redneck Rampage II
Yeah, that's it.
Steve
Of course, the idea of showers going off line after the Big Cablooie makes me glad I can't smell.
Awwwww! Where's the fun in that?! :P
Of course, the idea of showers going off line after the Big Cablooie makes me glad I can't smell.
Well, the people who don't realize there are other ways to get clean besides taking a shower probably aren't the best suited to post-apocalyptic lifestyles, so I doubt the smell problem would last that long. Natural selection and all that. :D
Just because you can't take a shower doesn't mean you can't take a bath (and heat water over a campfire to take a warm bath!).
Sorry, couldnt help
Are we going to die from Spray Can Nuclear Winter, or CO2 Global Warming?
Which movie do you chose: Day After Tomorrow, or Algore's Truth?
....wish they would pick one & stick to it. Kinda like them guys warning us not to eat eggs, then just 1 egg, then upto 3, then as many as we want cause they were completely wrong and there turn out to be 2 kinds of cholesterol.
Well, the people who don't realize there are other ways to get clean besides taking a shower probably aren't the best suited to post-apocalyptic lifestyles, so I doubt the smell problem would last that long. Natural selection and all that. :D
I suspect that people who haven't showered will be the least of your odor problems when two-thirds of the world's population suddenly drops dead.
Steve
I suspect that people who haven't showered will be the least of your odor problems when two-thirds of the world's population suddenly drops dead.
Steve
Good point--unless it's nuclear winter. :D
However, with a little bit of innovation: http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0038016517266a&type=product&cmCat=search&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&QueryText=shower&N=4887&Ntk=Products&Ntx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&Ntt=shower&noImage=0
You can most likely find something similar in your local outdoor store. Or knock something together yourself.
of course, you could plumb it to shower you as you drove, thereby conserving the gas for actual transportation use and showering as a parasitic activity of driving.
but instead of lining it with plastic, line it with Solar Panels.
Then you can put that bum burning sunlight to practical use: Save a bum and charge your MP3 Player
yeah it pretty much sucks
Steve
Apartment buildings & the colapse of infrastructure:
Just shut the water main off at the street, have the residents carry cans of water up the stairs, and siphon water into the cold faucet on the top floor. That will give a decent waterhead for pipe flow into the heater & shower on the 1st floor. As long as the propane truck keeps driving up & filling your back yard tank, you're golden.
Steve
I wouldn't advise lugging water up 30 flights of stairs,
what, dont city folk give their kids chores?
"Boy! Fetch that thar pail, and gather me up some showerin water."
But Paw, were 21 stories up!
"Dont sass me boy, or I'll have you fetch me a switch too."
:D
You get your bucket and go tot he river. get some water. then you just put that water in the back part of the toilet (no clue what its called, but it has a bit of the mechanics and has water in it) when that part has no water in it. You got the water in it and tahdah, you can flush again. lots of work,. but it works (kinda)
Another idea of mine is this. you dig a outhouse-like hole; deep and a bit narrow. use it like a outhouse , but have a seat theing, as well as 2 slides of something that will close the hole to prevent smell but can be slided away to let the feces and urine in. Once you get to a certain capacity, dont try and clean it; instead, fill the hole back up with dirt (dont miz it up. try and have the dirt be a layer) and mark where the hole used to be. repeat, but on a different spot.the feces and urine, over time, should be safe buried unless you oput it by the water source.
And sorry if this stuff is stupid and kinda obvious x.x; i aint the brightest bulb in the knife drawer
You get your bucket and go tot he river. get some water. then you just put that water in the back part of the toilet (no clue what its called, but it has a bit of the mechanics and has water in it) when that part has no water in it. You got the water in it and tahdah, you can flush again. lots of work,. but it works
Actually, you can just pour the bucket directly into the bowl. It flushes itself... for some reason unknown to me. My parents used to do that all the time when the water went out. (we have a very unreliable water system here, but now we have a water storage whatchamacalit thing.)
Steve
Many places have to use sewage pumps to keep the flow moving along. Could be the ability to manually operate a shower may be for naught if the drains back up because a pump 6 blocks over wont move the waste
"All you need to know to be a plumber is that **** rolls downhill."
Forget that simple truth at your peril. It's part of why New Orleans was such a mess in the days after Katrina. When your town lies below sea level, sewage must be pumped uphill to get rid of it. When the pumps break down, the sewage stalls, and when the sewers flood -- the sewage floats.
Steve
(my dad's building a Gatling gun in there as we speak)
:D
wow...just wow
Dear Straight Dope:
After watching Dawn of the Dead, I am left to wonder about one thing: If we were to suffer an apocalypse where most of the living became flesh-eating zombies, how long, assuming I survived, would I continue to receive hydroelectricity from my power company? Is it a mean-time-before-failure situation, or would the system automatically shut itself down after a few days? (I am assuming that most of the people who were supposed to be maintaining things at my hydro company would be out looking for brains, and that the surviving hydro employees would be busy digging shelters, etc.) Also, what's the outlook like for people whose chunk of the power grid is supplied by coal, nuclear, and other types of energy? Just wondering how many solar panels I should be putting on my roof! —Jason, Vancouver, BC, Canada
pic of membrane chamber electrolysis cell making chlorine & sodium hydroxide
so it would be easier to make than alcohol
The preacher man says its the end of time
and the Mississippi river shes a goin dry
interest is up and the stock markets down
and you only get mugged if you go downtown
I live back in the woods you see
my woman and the kids and the dogs and me
I got a shotgun a rifle and a four wheel drive
and a country boy can survive
country folks can survive
I can plow a field all day long I can catch catfish from dusk til dawn
We make our own whiskey and our own smoke too
ain't too many things these 'ol boys can't do
we grow good 'ol tomatos and homemade wine
and a country boy can survive
country folks can survive
Because you can't starve us out and you can't make us run
cause we're them 'ol boys raised on a shotgun
we say grace and we say ma'am
if you ain't into that we don't give a damn
We came from the West Virginia coal mines
and the Rocky Mountains and the western skies
and we can skin a buck and run a trotline
and a country boy can survive
country folks can survive
I had a good friend in New York city
he never called me by my name just hillbilly
my grandpa taught me how to live off the land
and his taught him to be a business man
he used to send me pictures of the Broadway nights
and I'd send him some homemade wine
but he was killed by a man with a switchblade knife
for forty-three dollars my friend lost his life
I'd love to spit some beechnut in that dude's eyes
and shoot him with my 'ol forty-five cause a country boy can survive
country folks can survive
Cause you can't starve us out and you can't make us run
cause we're them 'ol boys raised on a shotgun
we say grace and we say ma'am
if you ain't into that we don't give a damn
We're from North California and South Alabam
and little towns all around this land
and we can skin a buck and run a trot line
and a country boy can survive
country folks can survive
country boy can survive
-Hank Williams JR. A Country Boy can Survive
And yes Dammit, I love Country Music
There's nothing wrong with country music
Nope, but apparently on these boards i'm in the severe minority ;).
Listening to stuff from some countries just grates on my ears
Ted Nugent... he lives out in the country... that counts right?
Needless to say in this dissertation he puts forth the fact that within days most of what we hold dear (power, sewage, etc.) would break down and cease to function. And lets just say after reading his chapter on New York City, I'd flee that place as fast as possible, for without constant daily maintenence nature would reclaim the island within a few months...with the subways being flooded within 2 to 3 days of the pumps coming to a stop.
I suggest everyone give it a once over, it may put a damper on some long held PA beliefs (Roaches will not long outlast us it seems....they need us more then we need them), but it will help create a more "realistic" PA world for your Players.
For those intrested in just how long our infrastructure would stay functioning after a global Apocalyspe may want to check out a new book titled, The World Without Us by Alan Weisman. Its a great read and will put a whole new perspective on survival after the collapse of Civilization.
Needless to say in this dissertation he puts forth the fact that within days most of what we hold dear (power, sewage, etc.) would break down and cease to function. And lets just say after reading his chapter on New York City, I'd flee that place as fast as possible, for without constant daily maintenence nature would reclaim the island within a few months...with the subways being flooded within 2 to 3 days of the pumps coming to a stop.
I suggest everyone give it a once over, it may put a damper on some long held PA beliefs (Roaches will not long outlast us it seems....they need us more then we need them), but it will help create a more "realistic" PA world for your Players.
Awesome....
I just ordered this book.
I recall at one point one of my players got ticked at me "Why is every damned toiled backed up and filthy?!?"
The game took a de-railment into discussion of how long sewage would last with no power and no one to "tend" it....
Humans are inherently filthy and without sewage inhabited cities become disease infested cesspools.
Humans are inherently filthy
Are you sure?
Are you sure?
Eyup...
Cholera killed untold and is trasmitted due to unsanitary conditions. Human waste is not healthy for humans and when humans lived in large groups there has to be a lot of effort put into removing that waste.
If you look into history you'll see that quite many of the disasterous disease are due to squalid and unsanitary living conditions (Plague for one).
Most folks live in areas where waste is taken care of. But if you travel to any poor country you can visit towns were human waste is still carried in troughs through the dirt roads of towns.
I'd say that yes, due to the tendency of humans to live in large congregations and the susceptibility to disease born through either our own wastes or supported by filthy living conditions that qualifies humans as being inherently filthy.
Now, when living in small numbers with enough territory between groups folks can live just fine. It’s the fact that we don’t anymore that creates the problem.
physiologically & psychologically
The concentration of wastes & byproducts hurts the body,
and what happened to folks put in the SuperDome for a few days? They went out of their minds Killing & Raping each other.
You get more than 500 or 2000 folks together out in the countryside, and it is all downhill from there.... sanitation & crime problems.
Fortunately, John Browning developed a couple of solutions to those problems.
Fortunately, John Browning developed a couple of solutions to those problems.
Eugene Stoner and Mikail Kalashnikov thought of better ones.
Speaking of which, just how long would a home septic system last? Undoubtibly longer than city sewage, but how long? 10-20 years? Some scale i'm not thinking of?
till the concrete just falls apart,
or till roots get in your leech pipes
I dunno, but 20-40 sounds good to me, just a swag.
However, the inspiring enigneer can slap together a nice solar collector with battery storage *just* to power the water pump. And, wala, running water in the house from a pump.
How long does the septic tank last?
How long do septic systems typically last before they fail?
Again, the answer to this question is dependent upon how the system is used and how it was originally designed and installed. A system that is used conservatively and maintained regularly by pumping the septic tank can last a very long time if it was originally installed correctly. The best systems are shallow systems which allow air to enter the soil and penetrate to the vicinity of wastewater absorption. Studies that just look at averages without regard to quality of construction or how the system is utilized show that the average life of a septic system is 20 years or more. This is the time period until the system becomes sufficiently clogged with organic material that it either results in effluent coming to the soil surface or backing up in the plumbing and reducing the efficiency of flow from the home. Well constructed, well maintained systems will last longer.
Eugene Stoner and Mikail Kalashnikov thought of better ones.
Well, you can't beat the Browning. They came later and built on work already done, like all innovations -- the innovation tends to improve on the original. But, purists have a soft spot for the oringal... I still love the BAR....
you mean like calling the latest AR variant/OptionPackage the M4 rather than m16B1?
Load out your m16 sqaud:
4 Riflemen, m16a2
2 AutoRiflemen, m16a1 (Cmag)
2 Grenadier, m203 (m16a2)
RTO, m16b1 (m4)
2 Leader, m16b1 / b2 superstubby (m4)
iirc, after coming out of the digester & settled/precip/filter, the solids were spread out in the sun for a bit then hauled off for fertilizer at the sewage treatment plant I did work at ... iirc
Could human waste be used in the growth of crops as a form of manure?
Yes it can. But, you have to be careful if the food isn't cleaned properly people will get sick. This is a problem acrosst he world where they use human waste as fertilizer instead of animal waste.
."Take all the corn you want, but I promissed the yummy bright Red & Yellow berries to that other gang leader"
This topic makes me glad I live near a decently moving river. I wouldn't drink right out of it, but at least i'm smelling pine fresh when cutting down zombies with my Saiga...
The unfortunate thing is that the highest concentration of undead is most likely along the river as well
.Put a lawnchair in front of a few treadmils by the river,
sit in the lawnchair with a lemonaide & magazine while zombies walk the treadmill trying to get to you (stupid zombies
).Use treadmills to drive a pump to get water up the building for your shower
Presto- alternate beast of burden heard animal: Zombie
Two months if everything is still intact, assuming you're getting it from a treatment plant. If it's well water, you've got it as long as your pump is working.
If it's a disaster, like, say, nuclear exchange/war/invasion, probably instantly. I know that's how it was in the hurricanes, and we didn't even get hit that bad.
Well then, the amount of "refreshment bonus to attacks" players can get is limited
If you completely sterilize water by adding 3:1 chlorine bleach,
you will certainly srterilize water that will kill you if you drink it.
Along those lines is trying to sterilize radioactive water, or water with benzene or cyanide or any other nonliving toxin.
destilling water, or even better is multiple extract distilation where you pull samples out at the various temps & times to get more finite limits of the desired vapor temp material (h20), is the best way to purify water. Benzene & bugs leave early or get left behind in the pot. As for radioacive water... hey, you wanna live forever?
However, you will get seriously messed up drinking just distilled water for a while, so intentionaly re-contaminate it with your personal mix of salts & minerals for a few PPM.... gatorade style but to a much lessor extent.... like 1ml of gatorade to treat a quart of distilled to make it un-harmful
BTW: Don't bother drinking blood when thirsty. You will use up more internal hydration to digest the blood than the liquid will replenish.
You cant get blood from a turnip,
but you can distill water from blood.
Not a lot of return on that investment, so if you get thirsty you are gonna have to go majorly postal between refreshments.
BTW: Don't bother drinking blood when thirsty. You will use up more internal hydration to digest the blood than the liquid will replenish.
I've heard that's part of the three things you don't want for hydration: blood, sea water and snow.
what is the word on not melting snow for drinking?
Is it like the distilled water "mess your electrolytes up" problem?
I'm sure if you desalinate sea-water, it's fine to drink..
I'm sure if you heat the snow to water, it's fine to drink.
That isn't my point -> it's that you don't take these things fresh from the source for hydration
But, i'm sure you knew that already.
Why cant I stop the car while driving thru a winter wonderland,
fill up a cup with some cold white goodness,
and enjoy a snowcone instead of a glass of water for hydrating me on my long drive with the heater on & radio blasting UncleTed, the motor city madman?
The dangers of eating snow or ice deserves special attention. The amount of heat required to convert one ounce of snow or ice at 32 degrees F into one ounce of water at 32 degrees F is the same amount of heat required to raise the temperature of one ounce of water from room temperature to boiling. That is, heat is required just to convert Ice or snow to water without raising its temperature. If you eat ice or snow, the heat required to do this melting comes from your body.
This.
One good method i've heard of is, if possible, bottle up the snow and keep it closeby. Then move vigorously (jogging, for example). This should melt the snow and be a nice alternative if you can't somehow make a fire or another external heat source.
that is why eating snow is bad for hypothermia,
not why eating snow is bad for hydration.
Try this math for the hypothermia freaks:
Add 1/4 tsp sugar to the frozen 28g snow. Recalc the caloric P&L.
Melt 28g frozen water: 28 x 80 = 2240 calories
Raise that water to body temp: 28 x 37 = 1036 calories
Your body must burn 3300 calories just break even.
Sugar has 15 calories per teaspoon, 1/4 x 15 = 3.75calories......
....sounds bad, until you realize that dietary scientists decided to not use the same calorie as the rest of the science world.... dietary "Calories" are actually what real science folks call KiloCalories, 1 Dietary Calorie = 1000 Real Calories.
SO 1/4 teaspoon sugar has 3750 real calories,
You spend 3300 to eat the snow,
and gain 3750 of rapid burn fuel for your gut fires.
But if you are out doing some spring skiing in shorts & T-shirts,
eating snow for hydration wont be a problem if you are staying warm.... unless we start talking about electrolyte problems of pure H2O, but most americans dont have any shortage of salt in their diets
"Hey, good news, my thirst was slaked!"
"Great!"
"Unfortunately, i'm going to freeze to death"
If you are freezing to death,
knowing you would have died of dehydration a few days after you freeze is of little importance.
"If we dont find shelter, we wont make it thru the night!"
What about finding a source of drinking water?
"Ask me again in the morning."
ok, what about eating unmelted snow is bad for hydration?
Why cant I stop the car while driving thru a winter wonderland,
fill up a cup with some cold white goodness,
and enjoy a snowcone instead of a glass of water for hydrating me on my long drive with the heater on & radio blasting UncleTed, the motor city madman?
Got to love Uncle Ted
Hot water, that's a little trickier. But if your not fussy this'll work fine.
Also the same grav-feed system can give you fushing toilets.
PS: all excrement (animal & human) should be composted before use as fertiliser, it's just safer that way.
While there are many of us that dont have a problem with the big city folks losing their infastructure, all them telemarketers & store clerks that live in urbanian appartments will be in big trouble.
We use technology & infastructure to have 1million people live on a patch of land that can support 70k, so there is no big mystery as to what will happen when we take the infastructure away.
I say take the infastructure away, because no matter how much games & movies say so, you cant instantly take technology away... it is really really hard to prevent folks from finding out how a electric generator/altenator works in just a few years or decades.... just who is going around to all the local libraries & schools destroying all printed material?
Anyway,
city dwellers will be getting killed left & right if they stay in the city, shot for a bottle of water, and they will be dropping like flies if they try to survive in the wilderness.... too many years living in HIgh Density Feed Lots will do that to a species that mastered the wild long ago.
I'd say 1, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 of the first 27 are good fits.
Okay.
Dark times dont have to bring out someones truest character.
If the smoke alarm wakes up a person, do the gather importand documents or sentimental pictures to save them from the fire. A test of character for sure. Thinker or feeler, deeds & titles or Junior & Sissy on Granny's lap?
Me,
I fight the fire and leave tests of my sentimental mettle to greater moral dilemas. You see one apocalypse you've seen them all. Times are only dark if you let them be, and I aint letting no apoc ruin my afternoon. Agonizing over Dark Times is for other saps, I'll pop a flare & stay in the light times: The apocalypse is just another engineering challenge to overcome with applied science.
Of course, if Dr Gordon Freeman taught us anything,
many times the correct science to apply is the Crowbar upside their head.
Cranium, meet concrete.
*crack*
"Did it stop?"
"I dunno, make an objective statement"
I just recognize the way many catastrophies can be handled by a heavy handed nuclear policy.
Tsunami? Nuke the wave into humidity so it dont drown folks & break houses.
Volcano? Nuke that sucker into vapors before the lava flows & burns folks.
Global Warming? Heck, that's easy: Nuclear Winter
...uh, too much Nuclear Winter? Airburst Nuke some trees, the CO2 will globally warm us. Then just pop off a few KT of thermostat nukes each year to maintin the balance where we want it.
Alien Invasion? Well, I gotta say I'm still going with the Nukes on this one too.
An apocalypse is just theoreticly when folks stop us heros from nuking the problem away. I dont see how it can be called Dark Times, since everything will have a warm green glow.
Two days into Y2K8,
and the toilets still flush,
heralding that Man still has reign over this blue marble.
We can save all the nukes for some other day, the Y2K8 bug was a bust.
In 2007 Nascar lost French, and Reno Air lost Hubler...
Racing is dangerous, and not all racists live to retirement.
next your gonna say John Wayne wasnt a Shootist.
also i hear that some people refer to racists as folks who have a problem with a particular race...but never have i heard of them being just starting random arguments...maybe your thinking argumentist.... yeah that must be it.
yet Pacifists rarely get anything done as a pacifier.... they tend to get beat up or shot by Shootists.
Which would just be morefold in the apoc with the lack of infrastructure that would normaly keep the shootists in check
10 Pacifists would make utopia,
9 Pacifists & 1 Warmonger would make slavery.
but yeah you got the Pacifists right they suck at pacifing...maybe they should be called non fightists...or but kicked-ist im not sure what that would be.
Probably the best Pacifist ever was the alien in I Come In Peace,
he left a serious body count wherever he went.... which I guess maybe doesnt make him a good pacifist... bahh, close enough.
Those who would live in peace must always be under the protection of warriors, and the warriors must always serve the will of those they protect.
there could be a military society that stays at peace mainly from AssuredDestruction of any that attack it... kinda Spartanesque.
The army cook drives his army truck, that the army mechanic just fixed, over to the army farmer to get army supplies to feed the army accountants & army tailors. The Colonel Mayor would lead the parade celebrating the army teachers graduating another highschool classyear... that join the army & get assigned army jobs by PAC personel.
All without a shot being fired. Totally militaristic & excessively armed society at peace with all neighbors... cause the neighbors are really afraid of that machinegun toting, uniformed populace, military city.... enjoyiong true peace without fear.
... and I bet they have showers in their Apoc infrastucture!
Either they will have to go to war with a neighbour to expand their territory, or the people will eventually start asking why they all have to join the army.
If you want to instead, they can give you a shotgun & a book of UCMJ to carry out into the wastelands:
"Bring Law to those that have it not."
uh, the Colonel Mayor would have an "Open Door Policy",
does that help any?
And of course the Colonel would be subject to UCMJ & accountable to the Provosts.
But we digress.
These guys would have the showers not just running, but running to MilSpec. Personal Hygene while living at Peace with those around you.... provided & protected by threat of Heavy Artillery and CAS Overflight & TheBlackButton: a secret weapon so secret we cant even threaten you with what it does, but trust us, you dont want us to push it.
Like never again getting dragged to a store to listen to your girl say "Oh, these are cute" 500 times while comparing shoes. She just turns in her old boots to get a new pair issued.
I can't seem to get away from the fact that living in a military dictatorship isn't a lot of fun...
Unless you are working to bring it down!
it is a hoot for the ones Dictating.
Boots on Necks is bad when it not your boot.
Solution?
Join the Booters.
"You there, what are you doing?"
Baking biscuits, Sir
"And why are you baking them?"
Uh, cause I'm Baker 1st Class Rogers, and today I'm on BiscuitDuty, Sir
"Ahhh, very good Robbins..."
Rogers
" Not bad Roberts, but they need more egg"
Rogers... and Major, biscuits dont have eggs in them
"Sgt Briggs, take down Rollins name for not enough egg in his muffins."
Rog.... uh, thats two L's in Rollins, Sarge
Major, it is true the showers dont work right in sector 7g?
"What!? SubStandard Showers??? Not on my watch!!
Sgt Briggs, get your neck stompin boots on, we have infrastructure to inspect in Sector 7G."
Actually, they woulnt have NeckStompinBoots. UCMJ prevents Soldier on Soldier violence like that, and since the entire society would be military there would be nobody to stomp on..... again, looks like populace Peace attained by Superior Firepower & Mobility doctrine.
Even HomerSimpson had fun working for >>Scorpio<< for a while.
Schindlers List, there was a fat drunk nazi shooting a pile of burning bodies: Evil & Wrong, but he seemed to be having fun... obviously more fun than the guys he killed.
IF a guy in Arizona walks around with a pair of 45s holstered, showing the world he is armed & not to be attacked, is he rong or evil for eating lunch with guns on? He is at peace with his surroundings, peace brought by being the most dangerous person in the store... well, except for the 2 other guys packin at that other table. Eveyone has guns & nobody is using them = Peace. The kind of peace that leads to maintaing showers even after the Apoc, because they can still spend time on maintanence due to the lack of attacks by folks afraid of them.
Armys dont start wars, that is done by leaders mostly outside the army. SO the military society cannot start a war, yet will take on a Pattonesque or Spartan response to getting attacked.... then, when all forms of life of the attackers has been eliminated, and their soil & wells salted... and refugees routed... then we have the military society back home fixing the plumbing & baking biscuits at peace with the few neighbors they have left.
Also keep in mind this society of Showering Military would be a great neighbor to have. Not only can the buy protection via trade, but they dont have to worry about getting attacked by the Peaceful-Psycho-Showerers
So, in a gaming Post Apoc campaign,
there very well could be a Military Society at peace.
Armed & uniformed bakers, plumbers, groceryclerks, cops, librarians...
uh, maybe cops wasnt the best example.;)
What happens when someone doesn't want to be in the military, doesn't want to have some guy with three stripes telling him what to do all the time and just wants to be a human being!?
Oh, that's right you already said. He can leave, and he takes his family with him... Including his doctor wife! Your only fully trained doctor!
Oops!
Here's another one.
A young man doesn't want to be a soldier, you tell him "Fine, get out!". He leaves, taking your daughter (his lover) with him. Your wife is gonna be ******!
Lastly, you say the military doesn't start wars, that's the civil authorities decission. So your military society has no one to tell it to make war, or not to!?
What happens when someone doesn't want to be in the military, doesn't want to have some guy with three stripes telling him what to do all the time and just wants to be a human being!?
oh yes, it is far better to have the Asst Mgr telling you what to do all the time for McMinimum wage. And far more fun to have a guy in a tie stopping by your cubicle giving you 3 days to work up a 2 week project.
You gotta do what you gota do.
If you dont want people telling you what to do, leave the plannet while you can. Type this report, shoot that target, bake this biscuit, drive slower than 75, flip more burgers.... folks will always be telling you what to do, get over it.
Oh, that's right you already said. He can leave, and he takes his family with him... Including his doctor wife! Your only fully trained doctor!
Not a good mix: 2-3 Brigades with 1 doctor. Imagine the waiting room. I didnt say this was a 5man militariy society... the statement that they have army farmers, bakers, army highschools, & a Colonel Mayor should have indicated the population in the thousands.
Sure, in your example of a few puptents and 1 doctor, it would be bad to lose the doctor. But in that example, they will lose everyone the first time an army of more than 2 platoons attacks the god only knows how few folks you have in your 1 Doctor Society.
But I fail to see why the army doctor would leave the army, due to not liking authority figures. You dont just get to be a doctor 3 weeks out of highschool, they wouldnt recruit doctors from the graduating class from their military med school, they sent army folks to specialized training . If there was some Med School with a graduating class, then the 1Doctor theory is out the window.
A young man doesn't want to be a soldier, you tell him "Fine, get out!". He leaves, taking your daughter (his lover) with him. Your wife is gonna be ******!
No daughter of mine would be dating a guy that would rather leave & live in the world of Apoc violence than be part of the Uniformed People At Peace.
Besides, what part of baking biscuits does that guy hate so much?
He would rather live in the wilds than teach highschool?
Is it better to live in fear of the Apoc barbarians, than to be a plumber maintaining showers?
But hey, if that guy doesnt want to be part of the Common Defense, that is fine, he can go out and be his own Solo Defense. Good luck, heres some ammo & water, have fun out there by your lonesome tryin to live at Peace.... but then where is he going to SHOWER!
I really think it is not that there would be some guy that didnt want to be part of a military society in the Apoc, but that it is YOU that doesnt want to be part of the military in the current enviroment. Gotta remember, we are talking about a game, in the Apoc, not us here & now. All these questions about 'What if a guy doesnt want to be a cyber-mutant zombie nazi?' dont really flesh out the campaign of an apoc setting in regards to who has working showers & who dont.
B)"but clearly you're afraid to face my questions."
Hmm, I did address 3 of the 4, I seemed to have not bothered with the one that I explained so thoroghly beforehand... But I'll paste the answer in to make it an official 4/4 of your points adressed:
[INDENT]
Lastly, you say the military doesn't start wars, that's the civil authorities decission. So your military society has no one to tell it to make war, or not to!?
"Armys dont start wars, that is done by leaders mostly outside the army. SO the military society cannot start a war, yet will take on a Pattonesque or Spartan response to getting attacked.... then, when all forms of life of the attackers has been eliminated, and their soil & wells salted... and refugees routed... then we have the military society back home fixing the plumbing & baking biscuits at peace with the few neighbors they have left"
Yes, they dont start wars... they finish wars others start, with extreme predjudice, & totally totally to the max (and beyond). Not often do I get to use the adjective form of the word 'Patton', but it works so well in this case. Since they are not signatories of the Gen/Hag they can use the good stuff.. like the 5militon 12ga Slug Nuke on exposed troops[/INDENT]
C) I guess you missed the we are talking about a game part, and somehow want this to be personal in some way.
Perhaps on other boards I might take the "coward" & "clearly you're afraid" bait,
but we in Modern are more about getting along & playing the game than flaming each other. While I enjoyed exploring Apoc game Peaceful-Psycho-Showerer Military Society, it seems to have brought out the wrong type of response from some folks... so, unfortunately, I will put it in the closet to keep the board civil despite the enjoyment I find in its developement.
1) The potential loss of a key member of personnel because of social inflexibility. Instead you chose to avoid the problem by saying "oh, we'd have more doctors that that." In a perfect world that would be a fine answer, but this is a game about an imperfect world. Maybe she's not a military doctor. Maybe she's a civilian who suddenly got told to put on a uniform by your "Colonel Mayor". The point is that she is leaving, and you don't (for the purposes of this question) have another fully trained (not one even close) doctor.
What are you going to do?
2) This one is about handling a personal loss caused by the same social inflexibility. You are a high ranking member of the command structure, maybe even the "Colonel Mayor", and your daughter is in love with a man who is going to leave. Maybe he's an idealist who just doesn't believe you when you say you'll only attack in defence, and lets face it he might be right about that. The problem is he's going to leave, and she's going with him.
What are you going to do?
In an apoc of Mutants, Monsters, & Mages destroying infrastructure,
a heavy magic society could use magical weather summoning to induce villagewide rain from 6:30 to 7:15 every morning. Each home would have a shower, but that would basicly be just a roofless magicly warm closet. Dont have to worry about the wet streets messing with the commute, because the summoned extra-planar rain would vanish at the end of the spell.
If extraplanar junk & magic have messed up the world, use that same junk to fix parts of it ;)
1) The potential loss of a key member of personnel because of social inflexibility. Instead you chose to avoid the problem by saying "oh, we'd have more doctors that that." In a perfect world that would be a fine answer, but this is a game about an imperfect world. Maybe she's not a military doctor. Maybe she's a civilian who suddenly got told to put on a uniform by your "Colonel Mayor". The point is that she is leaving, and you don't (for the purposes of this question) have another fully trained (not one even close) doctor.
What are you going to do?
Suck it up. Sure we lose a few peeps to something-or-other (I hear it's going around these days), but there's not much you can do to force a doctor to work.
Other than , y'know, pointin' her in the direction of the sick people and saying "Fix!" loudly: You clearly underestimate your typical doctor's desire to actually do their job.
Even in these mercenary times, most won't actually pass a sick person without trying to help if they think they can. Either way, if she leaves, that's one less mouth to feed.
2) This one is about handling a personal loss caused by the same social inflexibility. You are a high ranking member of the command structure, maybe even the "Colonel Mayor", and your daughter is in love with a man who is going to leave. Maybe he's an idealist who just doesn't believe you when you say you'll only attack in defence, and lets face it he might be right about that. The problem is he's going to leave, and she's going with him.
What are you going to do?
Hand her a two-shot derringer in a garter holster and wish her good luck with the mutant zombies when her idealist beau tries to talk them out of eating her. And remind her that she's free to come back any time. Though I did once promise myself I'd disown as a changeling any child of mine that stupid; I must be getting soft in my old age.
Failling to confront a problem (by letting people just leave) is as bad as over-reacting to it (by forcing them to stay).
I've got two questions for Mr_Rose...
1) Will you be so cavalier when your own health is at stake?
2) Why do you assume an idealist will be unable to defend himself or others?
and Bamph!
Ye Ole IgnoreList grows by one.
Maybe in a few months I see if he grew up any and is ready to participate without personal attacks.
Till then, Buh-By Ronin
No one will be happier than me to see it happen.
"While it's nice that Mr_Rose actually had the guts to give an answer"
and Bamph!
Ye Ole IgnoreList grows by one.
Maybe in a few months I see if he grew up any and is ready to participate without personal attacks.
Till then, Buh-By Ronin
1) Will you be so cavalier when your own health is at stake?
Huh. I rather assumed that since she was the "only" doctor, my health was already at stake. I presume you mean in some more immediate sense, such as a broken leg or whatnot?
Anyway, like I said, forcing doctors to work by whatever means seldom indices their best work; plus if they're my only hope, they could easily get it into their head to say "f**k the Hippocratic oath!" and deliberately screw up.
Plus the fact that, as I also pointed out, Doctors in the vicinity of sick people find it very hard to leave. The last resort would probably be making sure all the invalided were conspicuously lined up along her only way out of the compound.
And I'm not going to say anything further on this until you demonstrate some sort of basic understanding of human psychology in your questions, rather than just picking at places you want there to be holes.
2) Why do you assume an idealist will be unable to defend himself or others?
I didn't. I assumed that an idealist stupid enough to leave guaranteed safety in exchange for guaranteed death rather than actually work to promote his ideal was just plain stupid and therefore likely to think the blue mushrooms a tasty alternative to that nasty "meat" business or similar.
Or if he actually isn't that stupid I'd put the goob on my ruling council in an advisory position. To "ensure that the leadership does not exceed its stated bounds" or some such. Nothing quite like an active opposition that continues un-repressed to convince the people of their leader's honesty.
And I'm not going to say anything further on this until you demonstrate some sort of basic understanding of human psychology in your questions, rather than just picking at places you want there to be holes.
I understand human psychology quite well, and I think you might be over simplifying things a bit. The idea that a doctor can't simply walk away because of the Hippocratic oath doesn't take a number of things into account. Firstly the nature of the society she's leaving, it's basically a military dictatorship. Secondy she's leaving with her family, she's hardly likely to abandon them in favour of non-family.
Or if he actually isn't that stupid I'd put the goob on my ruling council in an advisory position. To "ensure that the leadership does not exceed its stated bounds" or some such. Nothing quite like an active opposition that continues un-repressed to convince the people of their leader's honesty.
Again you clearly don't like this guy, now what am I to make of that little bit of "human psychology"? Your leadership is a military chain of command, which is what he's against, he's hardly likely to join some toothless "council" you can just ignore.
Also, a family is a socking giant lever to lean on. Which would make my job that much easier: "No worky doctorin'? No family feedin'."
"And good luck with the barren wastes, 'cause you ain't takin' any of my guns or farmin' implements with you neither."
As for Enlightenment Dude, who said the no attack except in self defence was a lie anyway? I may well be a harsh, unyielding bastard at the best of times but I am at least honest about it. I just tend to respond to idiots the same way a kitten responds to a half-dead mouse....
She's not refusing her services. she and her family are leaving out of protest of the leadership and social system proposed by backstabbist. And now you're adding things, a "barren waste"? Are you seriously suggesting that this outpost is a green oasis in the middle of a desert?
"Enlightenment Dude"! You have it in for this guy, and he's not even real.
Lets put a little perspective on his situation, maybe that will help. The military society propsed by backstabbist has a lot of flaws, mostly because he doesn't take human nature into consideration. People arten't going to put up with being press ganged into service and toldhow to conduct their lives, basically it's fascism. Sure, at first it'll hold together, people like feeling safe, but these systems can't hold together without a real threat. Eventually the leadership is going to need to justify why they need all this militarism, and zombies wont do.
She's not refusing her services. she and her family are leaving out of protest of the leadership and social system proposed by backstabbist.
Leaving and denying you her services is different from not leaving and denying you her services, from the point of view of accessing her services, how?
And now you're adding things, a "barren waste"? Are you seriously suggesting that this outpost is a green oasis in the middle of a desert?
So, what happened to the Apocalypse? Or did you forget what board you were posting on?
Lets put a little perspective on his situation, maybe that will help. The military society propsed by backstabbist has a lot of flaws, mostly because he doesn't take human nature into consideration. People arten't going to put up with being press ganged into service and toldhow to conduct their lives, basically it's fascism.
OK, you have clearly confused the system backstabbist proposed with some other system that you made up, because the details do not seem to match. However, let us speak to the one you think he proposed as that is clearly where your mind is right now: Enforced mandatory employment worked for approximately four thousand years in Egypt, 900 or more in Europe and it worked up until 1912 in China (about two thousand years). Heck, it still works to this very day in certain parts of the world.
As for the "it's basically fascism" epithet: First, grow up. Second, you need to look up some world history; in most of the places where fascism or fascism-like systems were tried, the majority of the people welcomed it. Since you apparently think that fascism is synonymous with Nazism, I'll also point out that Hitler was elected by a popular majority.
People love being told what to do - it frees them of all responsibility for their own actions and releases them from the obligation to think.
Sure, at first it'll hold together, people like feeling safe, but these systems can't hold together without a real threat. Eventually the leadership is going to need to justify why they need all this militarism, and zombies wont do.
Zombies really will do. FFS, have you seen what happens to "people" when the electricity goes away? Chaos, destruction and what amounts to feral behaviour after as little as twenty-four hours. Add the constant threat of being eaten on top of that and people certainly will accept whatever they get told to do "in the interests of public safety". Especially if you can just point over the wall and say "those zombies" when people start asking questions about who or what is going to eat them in their sleep.
"Enlightenment Dude"! You have it in for this guy, and he's not even real.
Do not ascribe to me motivations for which you have no evidence, especially when you have already shown that you are a shocking judge of human nature: You are bound to fail.
Even when the Jews were persecuted, the German citizens followed Hitler blindly to their doom.
By 'evolving' into a group that doesnt shower, they can take over the world by depriving humanity of the infrastructure that allows showering.... resulting in the demise of mankind & victory for the C-MZN
<1> Akin to Operation Last Laugh, rise from the ashes
<2> Reference material: 'The Last Stand' game
I knew, that there was some smelling funny of the C-MZN.
i could go into the whole social-political explination about how difrent factors affect how diffrent forms of goverment develop ranging from out side infulances to corruption and oppression but I would be here all night just covering the basics
That didnt look too much like an military oppressive dictatorship, unless of course the series was actually SDF-1 propaganda, put forth by the Iron Fist Captain & the Bridge Bunnies of Doom, that crushed opposition speach & personal fredoms of the characters of the show.
I want to bring this back around to things that never seemed to be adressed.
Connecting generators to your home electical circuit: The average person the first time will probably forget to disconnect them selves for the grid at all. Also in high rise buldings there is a limit to how high a pump will pump. I seem to remember 32' being the limit, something to do with the 32' per square in of air pressure. So most current high rises need several pumps to get that tank of the roof full. Generators need fuel you can talk about solar panels but they won't work at night, during cloudy days or if they are smow covered.
The same is true about adding a water pump to your house. don't forget to close your water main. Who knows where there water main shut off is?
Those city water reserviors stored on roofs and in large tanks, are still stored on top of a structure. So they are just as vulnerable to colapse as any other structure maybe even more so with 6lbs per gallon of weight. The ones on top of high rise buildings would be destroyed in a nuclear air burst so they aren't reliable, not to mention will they be rusting and maintained?
There was several people praising the country life, saying they can plow and hunt. OK, how many years of seeds do you have stored for future planting. I would guess that they are planting large fields of oats, corn, barley etc... So where are they going to get a well rounded selection of vegetables from the seed store, nope; and how about meat. How about the fuel to run those tractors never mind threshers and bigger harvesting equipment. When your shot gun breaks, in a fire fight now what? Or there are just too many people coming at you. Many soldiers have died with empty mags, also with full ones too.
Someone mentioned fishing for catfish all day. So a family of three will need how many catfish 2, 3? Some one along the coast cann do what island fisherman around the world have done go catch tuna, shark, whale, whatever; and feed their family for the week.
Heating the water is really not that hard and probably the easiest part. Hot water expands. A still like contraption should make the water hot enough to rise and come out the shower head. Here in the suburban city. I could burn my dead neighbors furniture, his dead dog, and if I had to his or her corpse (for health reasons of course). With a little time I could burn his house.
The sewage thing maybe an whole other problem. A cesspool will have to be drained and city sewer pipe is going to flood with out pumps. But a leachfield will work, also there have been people who dug their cess pools in the wrong place so the waste was contaminating the neighbors well water why not just do that deliberately, the neighbor will be dead anyway.
I live in Pawtucket, Rhode Island, USA. In a quarter mile walk I can drop down 100' to sea level and then go ocean fishing for Cod, Blues, Stripers. I have 8 neighbors around me immediately for heat and hot water. I have heard of some very simple ways soldiers have adapted their environments during the last 100 years to gain some level of comfort luxury. Here is on from the motor pool. Take a 50 gallon drum mount it on it's side cut a door in one end add some heavy flat stone start a small fire near one end, now at the other end mount used motor oil with a screw valve to adjust the drip. Push the flat stones so the oil drip hits it splashes and atomizes then burns and don't forget the exhaust vent.
I just started reading this thread, and stopped around page three.
I want to bring this back around to things that never seemed to be adressed.
Connecting generators to your home electical circuit: The average person the first time will probably forget to disconnect them selves for the grid at all. Also in high rise buldings there is a limit to how high a pump will pump. I seem to remember 32' being the limit, something to do with the 32' per square in of air pressure. So most current high rises need several pumps to get that tank of the roof full. Generators need fuel you can talk about solar panels but they won't work at night, during cloudy days or if they are smow covered.
The same is true about adding a water pump to your house. don't forget to close your water main. Who knows where there water main shut off is?
Those city water reserviors stored on roofs and in large tanks, are still stored on top of a structure. So they are just as vulnerable to colapse as any other structure maybe even more so with 6lbs per gallon of weight. The ones on top of high rise buildings would be destroyed in a nuclear air burst so they aren't reliable, not to mention will they be rusting and maintained?
There was several people praising the country life, saying they can plow and hunt. OK, how many years of seeds do you have stored for future planting. I would guess that they are planting large fields of oats, corn, barley etc... So where are they going to get a well rounded selection of vegetables from the seed store, nope; and how about meat. How about the fuel to run those tractors never mind threshers and bigger harvesting equipment. When your shot gun breaks, in a fire fight now what? Or there are just too many people coming at you. Many soldiers have died with empty mags, also with full ones too.
Someone mentioned fishing for catfish all day. So a family of three will need how many catfish 2, 3? Some one along the coast cann do what island fisherman around the world have done go catch tuna, shark, whale, whatever; and feed their family for the week.
Heating the water is really not that hard and probably the easiest part. Hot water expands. A still like contraption should make the water hot enough to rise and come out the shower head. Here in the suburban city. I could burn my dead neighbors furniture, his dead dog, and if I had to his or her corpse (for health reasons of course). With a little time I could burn his house.
The sewage thing maybe an whole other problem. A cesspool will have to be drained and city sewer pipe is going to flood with out pumps. But a leachfield will work, also there have been people who dug their cess pools in the wrong place so the waste was contaminating the neighbors well water why not just do that deliberately, the neighbor will be dead anyway.
I live in Pawtucket, Rhode Island, USA. In a quarter mile walk I can drop down 100' to sea level and then go ocean fishing for Cod, Blues, Stripers. I have 8 neighbors around me immediately for heat and hot water. I have heard of some very simple ways soldiers have adapted their environments during the last 100 years to gain some level of comfort luxury. Here is on from the motor pool. Take a 50 gallon drum mount it on it's side cut a door in one end add some heavy flat stone start a small fire near one end, now at the other end mount used motor oil with a screw valve to adjust the drip. Push the flat stones so the oil drip hits it splashes and atomizes then burns and don't forget the exhaust vent.
Thank you
.Connecting generators to your home electical circuit: The average person the first time will probably forget to disconnect them selves for the grid at all. Also in high rise buldings there is a limit to how high a pump will pump. I seem to remember 32' being the limit, something to do with the 32' per square in of air pressure. So most current high rises need several pumps to get that tank of the roof full. Generators need fuel you can talk about solar panels but they won't work at night, during cloudy days or if they are smow covered.
any one with a simple understanding of electronics can do this but granted there are a lot of people these days who's understanding of electronics goes as far as "where's the phone book so I can call an electrition" hopefull come the end of the world they will be the first to die and stop wasting air and food that the rest of us need lol. next why would you want to pump water into a highrise building? why not just live on the ground floor? or just build a water tank on the roof and pipe rain water down to where you are planning to stay. personaly come the end of the world I would stick to a nice small building simply becuse it's more likely to get over looked by roving gangs and becuse it would be easier to maintain (you don't want the ceiling to fall on you becuse last week you decided to fix up the other end of the buliding and not the part you are currently in)
as for generators needing fuel. well you can scrounge fuel out of cars but that will quickly run dry. most generators and electric motors for that matter can be easiely modified into wind turbines or even water turbines if you happen to be near a river, or with an old bike and some imagination you can get fit and heat up your water, run your radio and charge up the battries all at the same time. granted solar has it's limitations but why not use it to charge up a set of car battries for light and heat through those long winter nights. how any cars are there near you? how many of those cars have battries that either have charge or can be easiely recharged? heck most cars have a simple inbuild generator (that little motor conecting to the fan, it charges the battrey)
There was several people praising the country life, saying they can plow and hunt. OK, how many years of seeds do you have stored for future planting. I would guess that they are planting large fields of oats, corn, barley etc... So where are they going to get a well rounded selection of vegetables from the seed store, nope; and how about meat. How about the fuel to run those tractors never mind threshers and bigger harvesting equipment. When your shot gun breaks, in a fire fight now what? Or there are just too many people coming at you. Many soldiers have died with empty mags, also with full ones too.
what is wheat? or atleast what was it before it was transformed over years of selective breeding of the plant? it was common grass. that stuff that grows wild in the fields and that will spring up in the local park if it's not kept mowed short. all wheat is is grass sead, just bigger. and if you can't get enough grass seads to grind into flour, how about plantain seads? they're not as good as grass but they do make decient grain. don't forget after the end of the world you're not growing comercial crops you'll be growing survival food. a decient sized field can easiely produce enough grain to keep the average family in bread and cookies for months. and if you harvist by hand you don't really need to replant, infact all you'll have to do is drop a few seads while harvesting them and you'll have grain next year.
as for vegitables, there are 100's of wild version of comercial fruits and vegitables in the wild. they may not be as big but they are just as edible. all apples found in the shops came from the humble crab apple just after 100s of years of selecting the apples that are a bit redder or a bit bigger and we have 100s of apples to chose from. same with strawberries, cabage, potatoes, parsnips and various other plants. infact there are tons of plants considered weeds by most people that are infact edible herbs and vegitables. who would know a wild parsnip if they saw one? who would know the diffrence between a wild parsnip and a comercial one if they saw it on their plate? just look at all the plants growing in the cracks of the pavement, on patches of waste land or around parks. there are hunddreds of eddible plants growing around us and it's easy to just pick a few for dinner and maybe store a few for planting next year.
as for the farm machenery, did they need all that during the middle ages, the iron age or even the neolithic period. heck did they need all that 150 years ago? no. they used horse and hand pulled ploughs, they harvested crops by hand and planted them by hand. all the modern machenery is designed to allow the few small farms the ability to feed entire countries at the lowest cost possible. in an apocolyptic situation how many people will you be feeding with your crops? yourself, your family, survivors in your local comunity or the whole planet? you'll only need to produce the amount of food for the amount of people you'll be feeding.
for example where I live is semi rural. i can take a 30 seccond walk behind my house and I'll be in a small patch of wasteland with enough grass seads, plantains, dandelions, blackberries, wimberries, wild strawberries and nuts to feed myself and those people in my street for a few weeks. take a further walk and there is a river full of trout and more wild berries, nuts, roots and herbs to feed my street for a year, not to mention the rabbits, rats, ferral cats, pidgions and other animals. less than ten minuets in another direction and i'll be on a mountain with a sheep and cow farm. by building a small pen and herbing the animals into it I can easily provide enough meat to feed everyone on steaks and lamb chops all year and still have enough left over for breeding next year or two. then there's wild berries on the mountain, and the park just before the end of town full of beach, pine, juniper and sweet chestnut trees. 20-30 minuets in another direction is another mountain filled with sheep, rabbits, foxes, pegions, phessant as well as various berries and nuts. less than an hour walk in another direction and there's a forest filled with crab apple trees, hazel nuts, beach nuts and sweet chest nuts, a nearby cow farm and plenty of wild animals for hunting. infact there's probably enough food in the area to keep my village and several nearby towns and villages fed for a while without putting too much strain on the local resources.
The sewage thing maybe an whole other problem. A cesspool will have to be drained and city sewer pipe is going to flood with out pumps. But a leachfield will work, also there have been people who dug their cess pools in the wrong place so the waste was contaminating the neighbors well water why not just do that deliberately, the neighbor will be dead anyway.
granted without management it will be a problem. but how long does it take human waste to decompose? not very long. infact if you treated it correctly you could easiely convert it into fuel for cooking or into fertilizer (if mixed with other materials to replace the missing minnerals) liquid waste can be filtered and distilled to form drinking water or disposed of away from anywhere it could cause a problem and in no time it will break down in the earth. after all urine is basically just ammonia which is used by plants to form nitrate compounds.
don't forget if it's the end of teh world. then you're not going to be dealing wit 1000's of tons of human waste you'll be dealing with just a few kilos (depending on the size of the group) with less than 20 people a simple trench to dump the waste in and bury it will do. moving it every few weeks to a new location and it will have the added benifit of helping the soil once the bacteria get going at the buried waste. (that's why cemitaries have such green lawns)
I could probably go on for hours but I've been told I tend to ramble a bit when it comes to survival (so sorry for the long post and all the typos I may have missed lol)
for example where I live is semi rural. i can take a 30 seccond walk behind my house and I'll be in a small patch of wasteland with enough grass seads, plantains, dandelions, blackberries, wimberries, wild strawberries and nuts to feed myself and those people in my street for a few weeks. take a further walk and there is a river full of trout and more wild berries, nuts, roots and herbs to feed my street for a year, not to mention the rabbits, rats, ferral cats, pidgions and other animals. less than ten minuets in another direction and i'll be on a mountain with a sheep and cow farm. by building a small pen and herbing the animals into it I can easily provide enough meat to feed everyone on steaks and lamb chops all year and still have enough left over for breeding next year or two. then there's wild berries on the mountain, and the park just before the end of town full of beach, pine, juniper and sweet chestnut trees. 20-30 minuets in another direction is another mountain filled with sheep, rabbits, foxes, pegions, phessant as well as various berries and nuts. less than an hour walk in another direction and there's a forest filled with crab apple trees, hazel nuts, beach nuts and sweet chest nuts, a nearby cow farm and plenty of wild animals for hunting. infact there's probably enough food in the area to keep my village and several nearby towns and villages fed for a while without putting too much strain on the local resources.
That's all well and good, but how versed are you in preservation techniques such as pickling, canning, smoking, curing, jamming and the like?
How about testing the soil? While you could have something good for a while, the exact circumstances of the apocalypse could quickly render that area infertile or even inhospitable.
Then taking some seed samples and devoting a kind of shelter, be it above or underground (betting on the former) to a full time garden in case you can't rely on the current areas anymore?
That's all well and good, but how versed are you in preservation techniques such as pickling, canning, smoking, curing, jamming and the like?
Its called Homebrewing.
Liquid Grain, good for years. Even keeps your drinking supply from getting stale. From OatmealPorters to PearCicer & Meads, to fuiltsyrups with SG's approaching 1.5... balanced nutritian from a few bottles a day.
Even without RonCo's help, I can make a plum turn into a prune, or a steak turn into Jerky if I'm close enough to an ocean.
The underlieing question, to survive you have to be smarter than a dark ages guy, are you In or Out? Forageing is not hard. Alcohol Preservation, and Dehydration is not hard. Alternating current steam turbine electrical generation is not hard. HeadPressure gravity plumbing is not hard.
Edit: After reading the topic again, all I have to say is: Godwin's Law much?
Perfect setup for a Informative Democracy: Those that have the Knowlege get ballots, those without the Knowlege get to watch democracy in action.
That's all well and good, but how versed are you in preservation techniques such as pickling, canning, smoking, curing, jamming and the like?
well I did study A-level chemistry and physics in school. I used to teach a small survival class and can make a full 3 course meal including cake for desert while in the middle of the woods and equiped with nothing more than a knife and my flint and steel
but for the uninformed here are a few simple methods of preserving food
1) drying.
can easiely be done by hanging food in the wind, or leaving on a hot rock in direct sunlight or next to a fire. not the best moethod but a quick and simple method to help preserve nuts, seads, fruit and non fatty meats (doesn't work too well with ducks, and I'm told sea birds) as a note grain was found in the pyramids in egypt dating back more than 3000 years and was still perfectly edible due to the dry conditions it was kept in (don't ask me who tried it to see it was still edible)
2) smoke drying
simalar to the above but covers the food with a protective layer. it's dry so prevents mold and the protective smoke layer seals it from bacteria.
3) biltong
known as jerky to all the yanks here. basically sun dried meat.
4) pemmican
made from biltong (jerky) basically take equel amounts of biltong and rendered fat, shread and pound the meat while slowly melting the animal fat over a fire (do not allow to boil) pour the molten fat over the meat and pack in a waterproof container (plastic bag, leather wrap) it will keep a long time and is one of my favourates for long hikes. it contains almost everything the body needs (except vitimin C but you can add that through dehydrating lemon or orange juice)
4) pickling and salting
salt is easy to get if your near the shore but harder to get if you're further inland. one method is to boil it out of certin plants or to make it if you have the chemicals available (hydrochloric acid and sodium) or you could just obtain it from rock salt (that pink stuff they put on roads to stop them getting icy)
acids for pickling can be ottained from citrus fruits (actually most fruit have acidic juices just citrus have stronger concentration of acids) or you could just make ascetic acid (vinigar) by basically making wine then letting it go bad. you could also use alcohol but this would mean you'll need a lot of water and various minerals to replace the minerals that the alcohol destroys, not to mention an inpaired sense of judgement is not a good thing in a survival situation.
How about testing the soil? While you could have something good for a while, the exact circumstances of the apocalypse could quickly render that area infertile or even inhospitable.
Then taking some seed samples and devoting a kind of shelter, be it above or underground (betting on the former) to a full time garden in case you can't rely on the current areas anymore?
testing the soil can easiely be done with a few household chemicals. even something as simple as red cabage juice. and beyond that there is always the simple method of hydroponics (you ever grow watercress on cottonwool in school?). just rig up a still and a well or water catcher to provide water. get some old pots and pans, polistyrine packageing ect, a few clean rags and you hand yourself the basics for a hydroponics bay without having to worry about toxins in the soil. with a bit of chemical know how you can adjust the nutrients in the water to feed the plants and keep everything growing.
not to mention an inpaired sense of judgement is not a good thing in a survival situation
Nonsense!
Chemically induced impaired judgement & denial is an important aspect of Survival Morale.
BigAl: Well, thats it, game over.... with the hellgate open its the end of the world. You know what that means?
Jimmy: Apocalypse Party?
BigAl: Sure, why not. You get the booze, I'll go tell everyone... uh, everyone still alive that is.
Princess: I can now say just how much I have hated getting stuck with you guys.
Jimmy: Hey, dont let the end of the world get to ya. Lighten up for cryin out loud.
where are the 350 little bottles, jars, & tubes of junk a woman litters all over the bathroom.... and you cant see it in the pic, but the toilet seat has been removed & stowed in a little cabinet down the hall. Try that when you're married!;)
Nonsense!
Chemically induced impaired judgement & denial is an important aspect of Survival Morale.
BigAl: Well, thats it, game over.... with the hellgate open its the end of the world. You know what that means?
Jimmy: Apocalypse Party?
BigAl: Sure, why not. You get the booze, I'll go tell everyone... uh, everyone still alive that is.
Princess: I can now say just how much I have hated getting stuck with you guys.
Jimmy: Hey, dont let the end of the world get to ya. Lighten up for cryin out loud.
lol
well I guess diffrent people cope diffrent ways. though when the big bad guys come knocking for the month's "food tax" you could always give them the alcohol soaked stuff and watch them pass out drunk then take their guns. tie them up and use them as farm hands. or just use them to fertilize the fields mwahahahahaha
and as for that bathroom Ragitsu, urghh... gah! don't tell me people actually design rooms like that *shudder* that bathroom is better decorated than my living room.
then again I'm a simple guy who never understood the who fashion thing and the need to make everything fancy looking. heck I'd be to scaired to use that room for fear of ruining the expensive decor. all I can say is the owner of that bathroom has too much money (more proof he's not married and is most probably gay, due to not haveing a woman take all his money lol (just kidding about that last bit girls lol))
surely there is some sort of health and safty law against that much slippery marble in a room with that much water.
and can someone tell me why anyone would need two sinks and both a bath and shower
*crwydryny's brain go boom at the thought of that bathroom
*Enjoy it while you can - I doubt it'll last long unless you have plumbers and mechanics on hand and even then, looters are about (unless you invested in fortress like defenses as well)
Looters are treated with Horse Medicine:
Stealing: Shoot them.
Robbery: Shoot them.
Assault/Battery: ShockCollar
Treason: Shoot them
Whats left is a well mannered, polite, hostile, but good hygene society
Whats left is a well mannered, polite, hostile, but good hygene society
or to put it another way 3 guys and a cat (everyone else having been shot for being too brutish greedy or just unhygenic
I imagine spending time washing your garments isn't likely if you're far away from running water or areas of high precipitation.Speaking of hygiene, what are some examples of clothing that's both rugged and easy to clean?
Denim? If you're not worried about set in stains, soap and a scrub brush goes a long way with denim clothing.
Sure, there'll be stores still around for raiding, but at some point you might have to start producing things beyond the obvious necessities.
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63171
Is denim easy to manufacture?
Sure, there'll be stores still around for raiding, but at some point you might have to start producing things beyond the obvious necessities.
Denim is basically cross-woven cotton cloth. As long as you can get suitable fibres and a loom, it's easier to make (though slightly less durable) than leather. You just gotta know how.
*goes to locate as much denim as possible*
For anyone that's seen Fight Club, there's an interesting line by Tyler Durden that basically talks about how "you'll make clothes that last you your entire life", but I missed what exactly he was talking about. Anyone here know?
The one caveat is that your clothes only last a lifetime because your life is so damn short. He didn't actually mention this in the film though.
!I didn't even consider that. I mean, I knew that their activities were rebellious and constantly putting lives on the line, but the connection between a simpler lifestyle that was also more active (and therefore, reduced the lifespan) didn't fully hit home till now.
Assume the following:
1) The apocalypse hits. EVERYBODY PANIC. (It's your choice of apoc, but it doesn't organically destroy the soil in your neighborhood/region/neck of the woods.)
2) You, and your 1-3 dozen closest friends survive; miraculously, everyone organizes to your superior wisdom.
3) You find, steal, or loot enough food for everyone to eat for a whole year -- you trip over a survivalist's empty bunker, or a grain silo, or something.
What type of culture/tribe/community could rise from the wasteland? Think time-tables -- 10 years down the road, 50, 150. Think infrastructure & organization (or don't - write about a group of pseudo-Sioux). Use crunch! Use fluff!
I'm building a setting (post-apoc PL ~7 d20 modern), but I've hit the wall. Desert raiders, archeological scavangers, and desperate farmers are well-worn cliches, and I need ideas that are new -- or, at least, new to me. Show me the world you see when you hear the words "post-apocalypse."
I'm in yur forum, steelin yur thread... and that makes me a punk. sorry. look for "Post-Apoc Settings?"
So, yeah. Killer kudzu taking over the South. Just like real life!
Assume the following:
1) The apocalypse hits. EVERYBODY PANIC. (It's your choice of apoc, but it doesn't organically destroy the soil in your neighborhood/region/neck of the woods.)
2) You, and your 1-3 dozen closest friends survive; miraculously, everyone organizes to your superior wisdom.
3) You find, steal, or loot enough food for everyone to eat for a whole year -- you trip over a survivalist's empty bunker, or a grain silo, or something.
I'm in yur forum, steelin yur thread... and that makes me a punk. sorry. look for "Post-Apoc Settings"
The biggest problem around here is not the fertile fields, streams and forests, but the cold. Everyone would need to learn log cabin building right quick, or die of exposure.
Should be plenty of portable 4 wheel caves laying around to setup home in. Along with the modern pueblos: cargo container stacks
The trouble with cargo container stacks is that they tend to proliferate near ports, and major ports are primary targets in most any sort of organised apocalypse ('organised' in the sense that it is initiated or entirely due to the actions of one or more sentient factions, be they aliens, evil androids from the future or just plain old morons with big red buttons) and so are likely to wind up destroyed or otherwise uninhabitable in such a circumstance.
The trouble with cargo container stacks is that they tend to proliferate near ports, and major ports are primary targets in most any sort of organised apocalypse ('organised' in the sense that it is initiated or entirely due to the actions of one or more sentient factions, be they aliens, evil androids from the future or just plain old morons with big red buttons) and so are likely to wind up destroyed or otherwise uninhabitable in such a circumstance.
Hm, what about railroads that are further inland?
The problem is that, in my mind, cargo containers big (and solid) enough to act as shelter are only in areas of loading & unloading: namely, large urban centers - not the type of place you wanna start a farm post-Bomb. However, the possibility of a cargo-train simply being abandoned by the engineer, or knocked off the tracks, or (plot effect X), in the middle of the boonies isn't remote.
Still, I'll trust in my little all-weather 2-person tent & thermal bedroll. You can live in that while you build your log cabin (or whatever).
Oh yeah, regarding that fact that all Post-Apoc stories seem to take place in the damn Sierra Desert: I was talking to an ecology major I work with, and, apparently, Bombs knock around the local ecosystem like nobody's business: irradiating land, screwing up the soil's ability to retain water (and support plant life), and generally giving the area a prolonged dry spell. (<- Greatest run-on sentence evar.) Also, the theme of "Man Vs Nature" is much more impressive when you couldn't even eat grass if you wanted to.
Back to the original point of this post: reliably warm water, called from the ether by the turn of a faucet, should be seen as a high point in the battle of Civilization against the Universe. Soaking in a pool of 80-degree H2O was the province of the elite, and the majority made due with streams. Getting a hot shower to work - reliably - post-Bomb would be an impressive feat, and a sign to the neighbors that You Are Badass.
In considering your post-apocalyptic retreat, be sure to consider the distance to the south-east you are of any nuclear reactors or population centers, that's the way the weather will take most of the radiation. Of course, if you have a map of how fallout would hit certain places, that is even better, but I doubt many people have that.
edit: At least, south-east is where I see almost all of the weather fronts going, could just be around here.
I'd stay in the neighbourhood, I guess, because I know the area. But I'd run out of supplies sometime, and I guess I'd be f*cked then.
That really depends on the type of apoc... I'd stay in the neighbourhood, I guess, because I know the area. But I'd run out of supplies sometime, and I guess I'd be f*cked then.
And don't t forget he classic 'Neighbors scoff at your preparedness' but when the world gets flushed they either plea for your stuff or outright try to kill you... Of course barring everyone burns the maps you can always find out where you need to go...
I dont need all of you guys showing up wanting to be roomies
People love it when you lose, they love dirty laundry.
Wow, did Don Henley really prophesize the apocalypse?
when I tried to edit it, the post layout was completely scrambled