Rob Heinsoo wrote:
Cant wait to see your draft on Classless 4e Mechanics
with modern powers like Dead Aim, Power Attack, Double Tap, Brawl, Drive-By Attack, Force Stop, Burst Fire, Strafe, & Vehicle Dodge. Along with the swell powers Adv CMA, Improved Bull Rush, Adv Firearms Prof, Improved CMA, Adv CMA, Surgery, & Defensive Martial Arts.
Oh, and one of my favorites, the Leadership ability as a power card too
At WIll: Yell at a trooper, +1 "What is your malfunction, Numnut!"
Per Encounter : Motivational Slogan, +2 for #Cha troops "Its ButKickin Time Boys!"
Per Day : Inspirational Speech, +3 for many "We're gonna grease the tracks of our tanks with their living guts"
Great
Cant wait to see
So that will get listed with Basic Melee AtWill & Basic Ranged AtWill,
right?
Or will we have to list which classes get Basic Melee/Ranged/Autofire AtWill powers:
Strongs dont get a BasicRangedAttack atwill power nor BasicAutofireAttack power,
Fasts dont get the BasicMeleeAttack atwill power
Smarts dont get any Basic Melee/Ranged/Autofire Attack atwill power
in context to the Topic:
Strongs wouldnt get access to any Ranged Keyword cards,
Fasts dont get Melee Keyword cards ?
Also I have a question.
Should 4E modern have basic and advanced classes like Modern? Or should it stick to the specific class model of 4E?
I suppose that's actually 2 questions...;)
is the way 4e had to add a special independant Basic Ranged Attack atwill power when equiped with a Ranged weapon.
To truely institute the idea that Autofire atwill power should be granted by Auto weapons would kinda imply we should move the 4e Basic Ranged Attack atwill power to be just like Autofire.... Ranged weapons grant Basic Ranged Attack and Auto weapons grant Basic Autofire Attack.
Its a matter of uniformity.
If weapons capable of making nonstandard attacks (Burst/Autofire/Ranged) should be granted by the waepon, then we should do that for ALL nonstandard attacks that require special equipment ... ie Ranged Attack requires Ranged capable equipment and Autofire Attack requires Auto capable equipment.
Handaxes should grant their Basic Thrown Attack atwill power,
Bows&Rifles should grant their Basic Ranged Attack atwill power,
Autoguns should grant their Basic Autofire Attack atwill power
Burst is not a basic attack, since it requires a feat
However, if we DO have Bow&Rifles grant Basic Ranged Attack atwill,
that gets funky fast with the requirements for weapon proficiency to get that Weapon Granted power. If you need Martial Proff to fire Bows&Rifles, then maybe the bow&rifle shouldnt be granting the powers... maybe those atwill powers should be basic attacks like the standard melee basic attack deals with melee weapon proff.
for uniformity in how rules are applied
All 4E weapons come with a proficiency bonus.
If you are proficient, you get the bonus.
If you aren't you don't.
Also, all characters have basic ranged attacks, and basic melee attacks.
You don't need anything special to do those at will.
How much of the 4E mechanics do you actually know?
I only ask because as someone with an apparent axe to grind against 4E, I am not sure if you've ever really used the mechanics.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big fan of 4E myself, but I HAVE run a couple games, and I'm actively playing in one right now, so I know how the mechanics work. (to some extent... I'm no expert).
Yes, the 2 current Basic Attacks are Melee and Ranged,
and that wouldnt make sense in an expanded enviroment that would have other non-melee attacks that require special equipment (like Ranged) have their base attack done as a weapon power.
You are requierd to have equipment capable of making this kind of attack
in order to make this Basic Attack atwill power.
Now, is that talking about Basic Ranged atwill, or Basic Autofire?
They are in exactly the same boat-
both do not use the standard melee basic attack
both require equipment with a certain keyword, be that RangedWeapon or AutoWeapon.
Explain how,
in the sense of uniformity of rules,
is one Keyword Equipment Required Basic Attack different from the other.
Yes, we all know 4e curently has only 2 Basic atwill attack powers listed,
and we also know we can add to the GSL core but not change/redefine that stuff,
so we cant move the Basic Ranged Attack atwill power away from the Basic Melee Attack atwill power.
Therefore, to do it uniformly we would have to have BOTH the Ranged Equip Req along with the Auto Equip Req basic attacks done the same place.... basic Melee & Ranged & Autofire atwill attack powers.
4e didnt list Basic Autofire Attack atwill power along with the other two
because 4e doesnt have Auto keyword weapons.
Basic Melee, Basic Ranged, Basic AutoArea, no feats or abilities req other than those keyword weapons.
Perhaps if folks could explain the difference of a mundane AutoWeapon and a mundane RangedWeapon keyword equipment as to why they would have their basic attacks listed in different places.....
Consider the Print Count doing it the different ways:
a) Print the text for Basic AreaAuto Attack atwill power as a basic, just once, weapons ahve Keyword Auto
b) Define how a basic autofire attack works over & over for every weapon in your closet
I am going off the assumption that autofire is not a basic attack. it is an at-will power granted by the equipment itself. Essentially modern firearms become similar to magic items with special powers that are granted to the wielder.
Namely double tap, burst fire and autofire.
double tap would use 3 bullets and do 2[w] damage
burst fire would use 5 bullets and do 3[w] damage
autofire would only do 1[w] damage but at range 20 (or 40 or 80 depending on the range of the weapon) with a blast 2
the first 2 functions of the weapon would be dex vs ac
the second would be dex vs reflex defense.
or something along those lines...
anyway, I'll let cyber-dave and Mecha Pilot figure out the details... I don't really have the time or energy to hammer out the fine points.
I'm just trying to be helpful by offering suggestions, I don't want to get into a fight over it...
Some folks are making the assertion that Basic Autofire would be defined over & over as something all characters can do regardless of class, completely unlike how Basic Ranged is done.
One could look at the first sentence of the description of the Basic atwill attack powers, and notice an amazing similarity to what I just said: a basic attack that all chars can do regardless of class. 4e chose to not redundantly define the Basic Ranged Attack atwill on the description of every ranged weapon
They used KEYWORD ranged weapon on each weapon you can take Basic Ranged Attack atwill.
Thats what this thread is talking about, KEYWORDS, right?
So, why abandon the existing 4e way to define a basic attacks that uses a keyword equipment?
Basic Melee (choppers&boppers keyword Melee)
Basic Ranged (Bows&Rifles keyword Ranged)
Basic Autofire (cyclic weapons keyword Auto)
4e chose to not copypaste the Basic Ranged Attack atwill power as a per weapon unique power, onto every Ranged weapon description... they defined the Basic Ranged Attack atwill that is available to everyone regardless of class, and then just slapped the KEYWORD Ranged to avoid pasting in copies of the same old Basic Attack as a special ability of each ranged weapon.
Just do Basic Auto Attack (something everyone gets regardless of classes)
the same 4e keyword way.
Uniformity & consistency of making rules.
Dont reinvent the wheel, use the keyword,
and that what this thread is about, right using the keywords
rather than reinventing the generic basic wheel as a special ability of each & every Auto weapon
DoubleTap is not available to everyone regardless of class, it is an AddOn feat/ability/(class)power
Burstfire is the same as DTap, unless you get a special feat/ability/power, you cant do it
Autofire&Ranged&Melee are basic attacks that everyone can do without additional feat/ability, managed by KEYWORDS on the weapon
How many pages would it take to list the stat table for 12 Auto guns if you have to put all the Basic Autofire rules & mods in each guns statblock? If you house rule an ArmorMod for your Autofire rules, you just have to find each & every autogun, and change each guns own Autofire power text. Or, just define the Basic Keyword Autofire atwill once, next to the other basic keyword attack atwills.... any houseruling is just changing the one Basic Autofire that keyword Auto weapons can do (just like 4e did Ranged).
Keywords,
we gonna use them like 4e does for Ranged, or reinvent the autofire wheel for each & every auto gun?
Folks are assuming we are gonna ignore the 4e procedure of Keyword basic attacks.
Why not use the 4e system like WoC used the 4e system for keyword basic attacks
ok I see what you are saying now!
Yes, that makes sense.
Its when we look at things like DTap & Burst it gets ugly.
Should DTap be a Feat, or Class(classless) Power, or Gun Granted Ability
- DTap should be AtWill.
- DTap should not be free to everyone, it should be chosen Feat/power/ability
- A choice of AtWill Powers is not available every level
If done as a Gun Granted Power,
that would allow it to be AtWill, but then any fool that picks up the gun to do it... right?
And it leads to the ton of repetition as we put the whole DTap text in for every Semi gun (& SA Revolver according to BP). DTap is something you have to learn, the gun shouldnt give it to you.
If done a Feat granted AtWill,
we can put the Semi (Repeater?) keyword on all guns that it applies to,
and the control over who gets it is done by whomever takes that feat
So modern guns would have lines like
AK47 Ranged Auto Semi weapon
M16a2 Ranged Semi weapon
.... AtWill Power 3rb : 3ammo, 2[w] with Burst Feat, 1.5[w] without
.... Advancement (Xlevel) 3[w] with Burst Feat, 2[w] without
m60 Auto weapon
By keyword we can see
you can use any Ranged attack power (Ranger class,I'm looking at you) with the AK47 or m16a2 or Longbow, but not m60. You can make Autofire atatcks (like Basic Autofire) or advanced powers that require Auto like Burstfire Strafe Saturation etc with the AK47 or m60 but not m16a2. Also, we see the m16a2 does have a special ability, the 3rb that is different from the standard burst attack so it is put in the stats of the gun.
I like adding the "Autofire" basic attack action, and I think DT and Burst should be feats.
Looking at the DTap and Burst feats-
If those are going to be open to all as feats, what criteria do we use to decide what becomes ClassPowers and what are CrossClass powers?
Power Keywords: The first draft of the power system assigned keywords to every power and had the notion that different character classes and class builds would have varying access to the keywords, so that powers were cross-class. That was a bad idea for D&D's class-based system in many ways, though I presume you could organize some other game around such a system.
To have ClassPowers we would need to think of stuff that class can do that no other classes can.... the TalentTrees for BCs and class abilities for AdCs
Which means we have to come up with 10 sets of powers, with Frequency appropriate for that level, that allow a freedom of choice yet maintain the sequential nature of the trees
crap
the Char level is what determines what kind of power you get, not the class level. DD4e has classes set in stone, so the free multiclassing of Modern will have guys of all char levels taking 1st level XXXXX class... which means the ClassPower lists by level arent always going to be giving the right Frequency/Level of Power
hmmmm
Hows that going to work....
A guy takes 3 levels of Strong, then for his 4th char level he takes Fast1.... what does he get?
The Fast1 Powers, or the 4th CharLevel Feat?
So we can discuss how classes should work in a 4E based Modern setting.
OK
I like adding the "Autofire" basic attack action, and I think DT and Burst should be feats.
I think in the 4e paradigm, abilities of that power work better as class powers than feats. Most 3e feats that worked in a manner similar to DT or Burst were transformed into powers.
That being said, Amethyst chose to make DT style abilities powers, and burst into a feat, if I remember correctly. So... :shrug:
Which class in Modern is allowed to take DTap?
There are plenty of Smart/Techie guys that take Dtap
.... not to mention StrMA needs it to be a sniper
As a feat, anyone can learn to do it
and that seems in line with Modern: Anyone can learn DTap
Not everyone can ExtremeEffort or Savant
I think in the 4e paradigm, abilities of that power work better as class powers than feats. Most 3e feats that worked in a manner similar to DT or Burst were transformed into powers.
That being said, Amethyst chose to make DT style abilities powers, and burst into a feat, if I remember correctly. So... :shrug:
well if we go with making DT a power (which I'm not against), which classes should get it?
and for that matter what classes are we using?
That question is exactly why I started a new thread.
Dave
Which class in Modern is allowed to take DTap?
There are plenty of Smart/Techie guys that take Dtap
.... not to mention StrMA needs it to be a sniper
As a feat, anyone can learn to do it
and that seems in line with Modern: Anyone can learn DTap
Not everyone can ExtremeEffort or Savant
I suppose they could always make it a power swap feat. You take it as a feat, and get to swap out one of your powers for a double tap...
How does that work?
...for a guy to add DTap at some level,
he has to take it at a Feat level, and then GIVE UP one of his previously gained classpowers like Savant or ExtremeEffort?
That is not leveling up,
that is gaining XP to level sideways without gaining power.
Dave,
if DoubleTap is done as a ClassPower,
Which is the class that gets it?
If only 1class gets Dtap Burst without spending more Feat/Power slots than Fast to get it,
the game will be made up of 90% fasts
which says something about the balance
I suppose they could always make it a power swap feat. You take it as a feat, and get to swap out one of your powers for a double tap...
I think the best notion is a feat that grants access to a tree of firearms powers. The feat will allow you to perform the power swap, like the 4e multiclass feats. Also, (again like the 4e multiclass feats), they should add an additional ability.
Perhaps, instead of granting an additional benefit, it gives you a free at-will power slot for firearms powers only.
Backstabbist: The 4e multiclass feats not only allow for power swap, they also grant you a specified class feature from the other class.
ahhh, 4e Muticlassing.
How does that work?
...for a guy to add DTap at some level,
he has to take it at a Feat level, and then GIVE UP one of his previously gained classpowers like Savant or ExtremeEffort?
That is not leveling up,
that is gaining XP to level sideways without gaining power.
In 4e multiclassing you take a base multiclass feat. This base multiclass feat give you some sort of advantage. It then makes future multiclass power swap feats available. A power swap feat allows you to spend a feat in order to take a power from another classes. At every level, you may re-make your choice, though you can only swap the power for the highest level power that you know. So, no trading a level 10 power slot for a level 20 power slot.
Throughout 4e a character regularly retrains powers, giving up older powers for newer powers. That is how 4e works. I like it. It makes character growth feel more organic. Less planning is required when building a character, though some certainly helps.
Now, I can understand why you might call this "sideways leveling," but I respectfully disagree. Character classes do not gain the same options in terms of power choices. A character with leader oriented powers, who wants a more high damage/striker oriented power, needs to be able to spend a feat to gain such a power. A feat is spent because through tactical synergy some multiclass combinations of powers can be more powerful then the combinations of powers available from within their own class selection.
Dave,
if DoubleTap is done as a ClassPower,
Which is the class that gets it?
If only 1class gets Dtap Burst without spending more Feat/Power slots than Fast to get it,
the game will be made up of 90% fasts
which says something about the balance
Well, based on my first post, it probably wouldn't be a single class. Rather, it would probably have a keyword which would allow it to be taken by a number of the more combat oriented classes. So, maybe take every class that currently has double tap on their list of class feats, and give those classes the double tap power on their list of class powers.
Well, based on my first post, it probably wouldn't be a single class. Rather, it would probably have a keyword which would allow it to be taken by a number of the more combat oriented classes. So, maybe take every class that currently has double tap on their list of class feats, and give those classes the double tap power on their list of class powers
How many of the Basic classes have DTap or Burst on their bonus feat list?
In 4e multiclassing you take a base multiclass feat. This base multiclass feat give you some sort of advantage. It then makes future multiclass power swap feats available.
I read thru the Multiclass Feat thingy a while back,
and while I dont remember the entire mechanic, I do recall I want impressed.
I will reread it Monday and get back to ya.
How many of the Basic classes have DTap or Burst on their bonus feat list?
I just double checked. Apparently only Fast Hero. Which suggest that perhaps, in a "4e Modern game," other classes should have to multiclass into fast hero in order to gain Double Tap.
I read thru the Multiclass Feat thingy a while back,
and while I dont remember the entire mechanic, I do recall I want impressed.
I will reread it Monday and get back to ya.
Ok. Well, you are free not to be impressed. Everyone has different tastes. But, having actually used the 4e multiclassing in 4e games, it works very well for 4e. I like it for 4e. Which isn't to say that I don't like other styles of doing things. In Star Wars Saga the multiclassing system also works fantastically well. But I think that with the rest of the 4e rules, the 4e system works better for 4e.
But I think that with the rest of the 4e rules, the 4e system works better for 4e.
opt a) DTap as a feat that anyone can take
opt b) DTap as a Class Power of only ONE class, but it is availible as a CrossClass Feat that anyone can take
what?
So you believe DTap, which in Modern anyone can take no problemo,
should be a ClassPower of just one class, but everyone can multiclass to it,
just like they changed the POWER ATTACK feat into a Class Power of just one class that other have to multiclass to.
Right?
d20 feat that can bump up the damage on demand with a penalty tohit
how did 4e handle the Power Attack d20 feat that anyone can take?
And why would we think to do the DTap d20 feat any differently?
Do 4e Paladins and Clerics have to do this funky multiclassing thing to get PowerAttack done?
. . . . . . . .
4e Modern is not a verbatim carbon copy of 4eD&D
If it was, then we just treat guns as ranged weapons and we are done.
d20 Modern did MAS way differently than d20D&D
d20 Modern did Multiclassing way differently than d20D&D
d20 Modern did Wealth way way differently than d20D&D
which one was the d20 way to do it?
BOTH!!
so lets stop getting the D&D4e things confused with the 4e way to do things,
4e has Roles, Classes, ClassPowers, Basic Powers that everyone can do, and Feats that anyone can learn
D&D4e has roles like Leader and Striker,
classes like Cleric and Rogue,
class powers like Cleave and TwinStrike,
Basic Melee Attack power we are all born with
and feats like PowerAttack that anyone can learn
Modern 4e has roles like Expert, classes like Strong,
class powers like ExtremeEffort or Savant,
basic Autofire Attack Power that we are all born with (spray & pray),
and feats like DTap or PowerAttack that anyone can learn
"Double tap" is a basic firearms skill that anybody with a semiautomatic pistol can learn at the firing range with time and ammo. This fits squarely in the realm of a feat (which has always represented personal training).
The things that should be powers are the things that normal people cannot learn to do. It should be the amazing things that action heroes do in the movies that make you go WOW and COOL. I refer you to the action system I was trying to create for D20 Modern HERE. Check the spoiler on the first post for the kinds of things that I think should be powers in 4e Modern. Its exactly what I started working on back in October
Yeah, see this is one of the problems of making Modern a 4e product. It involves taking things that anyone can learn to do in real life and turning them into powers that can only be used by certain people or even only by certain people once per fight or once per day.
That's not actually true.
1) You can make it into a power granted by the weapon. Which means anyone who can pick up the weapon can use the power. And it can be an at-will power.
2) You can make it a weapon power that only chars with a certain feat have access to. Which means anyone who can pick up the weapon can use the power if they have the fear. And it can again be an at-will power.
3) You can make it part of a power tree that anyone can gain access to by taking a feat (similar to the pseudo-multiclassing of the spellscarred feat in 4e FR). And it can again be an at-will power.
"Double tap" is a basic firearms skill that anybody with a semiautomatic pistol can learn at the firing range with time and ammo. This fits squarely in the realm of a feat (which has always represented personal training).
It fits into the realm of the 3.0 and 3.5 feat. In 4e, feats are redifined. They either grant a static bonus; modify an existing class power; modify an existing racial power; or grant access to powers or class features you don't normally have access to as part of your chosen class. Under the new 4e structure, access to Dtap and Burst powers could still be just a feat away.
and lets see if I understand exactly how this would go.
BigAL the Fighter (Strong?) at 1st level will take
AtWill Cleave classpower, plus an Encounter and Daily power, and PowerAttack Feat.
He will the gain 2 powers as he levels up 2nd & 3rd.
At 4th level BigAl gets a Feat, and tries to get DTap
which means his 4th level feat would be the Multiclassing feat ShadowStealth to get Roguey(Fasty). He cannot do a DTap during 4th, nor 5th-7th levels because it is still a Rogue(Fast?). Finally at 8th he spends another feat, to do the PowerSwap and fiannly can do his DTap Atwill attack power.
except I didnt see any AtWill power swap feat, just Encounter,Utility,Daily
and of course, does this mean at 8th level the powerswap has BigAl lose the Fighter(Strong) power he had... no mor Cleave AtWill if he swaps for DTap AtWill
Is that right?
or am I missing something, something important enough to let a Fighter get PowerAttack feat at 1st, and DTap Power at some point before 8th
OR
We just put DTap as a feat like PowerAttack,
so folks can take it at 1st or 4th without giving up their AtWill Power
Only Sneaks can Backstab, but any fool can take PowerAttack or DTap
d20 feat Requirements:
The total feat count in the first 10 levels has dropped by A LOT in 4e,
so we will have to really look at feat requirements and progression... if you need PFP & AFP before Burstfire... or PFP & PointBlank before DTap, aint nobody gonna get that till late in life
Also, how many of these simple things are going to be AtWill, which you dont get a lot of looking at the total count of powers gained
Is Point Blank a feat or power, if its a Power, is it AtWill?
ok, I read the Multiclassing Exerpt
and lets see if I understand exactly how this would go.
BigAL the Fighter (Strong?) at 1st level will take
AtWill Cleave classpower, plus an Encounter and Daily power, and PowerAttack Feat.
He will the gain 2 powers as he levels up 2nd & 3rd.
At 4th level BigAl gets a Feat, and tries to get DTap
which means his 4th level feat would be the Multiclassing feat ShadowStealth to get Roguey(Fasty). He cannot do a DTap during 4th, nor 5th-7th levels because it is still a Rogue(Fast?). Finally at 8th he spends another feat, to do the PowerSwap and fiannly can do his DTap Atwill attack power.
except I didnt see any AtWill power swap feat, just Encounter,Utility,Daily
and of course, does this mean at 8th level the powerswap has BigAl lose the Fighter(Strong) power he had... no mor Cleave AtWill if he swaps for DTap AtWill
Is that right?
or am I missing something, something important enough to let a Fighter get PowerAttack feat at 1st, and DTap Power at some point before 8th
OR
We just put DTap as a feat like PowerAttack,
so folks can take it at 1st or 4th without giving up their AtWill Power
Only Sneaks can Backstab, but any fool can take PowerAttack or DTap
d20 feat Requirements:
The total feat count in the first 10 levels has dropped by A LOT in 4e,
so we will have to really look at feat requirements and progression... if you need PFP & AFP before Burstfire... or PFP & PointBlank before DTap, aint nobody gonna get that till late in life
Also, how many of these simple things are going to be AtWill, which you dont get a lot of looking at the total count of powers gained
Is Point Blank a feat or power, if its a Power, is it AtWill?
Firstly, if Big Al cares that much about firearms combat, why didn't he take the multiclass feat at 1st level? Sure, he wouldn't have the power attack feat, but he would have a once per encounter sneak attack power. Then he could take the power swap feat at lvl 4.
Secondly, you are correct. There is no power swap feat for at-will powers (though it would certainly be easy enough to make one). That is why i had suggested making it an at-will power granted by the weapon.
I later considered a power tree, which you get access to through some kind of firearms training feat, that would grant access to firearms powers.
A similar, but not exactly the same, kind of thing can be seen in the spellscarred pseudo-class in the FR player's book. Using the notion of a feat that allows access to a firearms power tree, the powers would be available to any char who took the feat; regardless of class.
I have also considered a new class of feats: weapons feats (we'll focus on the category of weapon feats that deals with firearms). These feats would modify the powers granted to the user of a firearm. In this way, Dtap would be the granted weapon power; and Burst would be a feat that replaces the Dtap power.
Please bear in mind that there is no overkill in 4e (no subdual or non-lethal damage). If you bring someone down to zero hp, you can choose to kill them or knock them out. This means there is no need to have 2 similar powers when one does lesser damage.
I'm also thinking of melding the 2 ideas together. A firearms training feat that lets you retrain the power granted to you by a firearm. This way you could take Burst without burning a specific feat for it, and you could even replace it later with another power from the firearms tree.
The item-granted at-will power helps solve the dilemma of a limited number of at-will powers. Item granted powers don't replace a class power. They are in addition to the powers you have through your class. That is why the item-granted power idea seems like the best way to go for basic firearms abilities. Things like the Robocop ricochet would obviously be more advanced powers, and are more likely to be encounter powers.
That's not actually true.
1) You can make it into a power granted by the weapon. Which means anyone who can pick up the weapon can use the power. And it can be an at-will power.
2) You can make it a weapon power that only chars with a certain feat have access to. Which means anyone who can pick up the weapon can use the power if they have the fear. And it can again be an at-will power.
3) You can make it part of a power tree that anyone can gain access to by taking a feat (similar to the pseudo-multiclassing of the spellscarred feat in 4e FR). And it can again be an at-will power.
none of which has been part of the discussion so far which is why I felt the need to interject.
It fits into the realm of the 3.0 and 3.5 feat. In 4e, feats are redifined. They either grant a static bonus; modify an existing class power; modify an existing racial power; or grant access to powers or class features you don't normally have access to as part of your chosen class. Under the new 4e structure, access to Dtap and Burst powers could still be just a feat away.
So while redefining exactly what a feat is, it is still an ability that should be granted through a feat rather than a class power, which is exactly what my point is.
The point that you seem to be making is that it is still a power because it would be defined in a power block with activation and key word specifics granted by a feat rather than simply text in a feat description entry.
Firstly, if Big Al cares that much about firearms combat, why didn't he take the multiclass feat at 1st level? Sure, he wouldn't have the power attack feat, but he would have a once per encounter sneak attack power. Then he could take the power swap feat at lvl 4
you have it so only folks that take Backstab Ability can later get DTap.
Big Al is not a backstabber nor needs access to the stealth skillset,
he justs want to DTap, not become a ninja.... we have Jimmy the Squeeler for the guttersnipe stuff
If he took the multiclass feat at first,
he wold not be able to DTap nor PowerAttack till 4th level,
but he would be able to do stuff he doesnt want to do: backstab & hide.
At Will
AtWill powers are few & far between on the XP table.
DTap & Burst should be AtWill... why would there be a limit on how many times you can DTap in a fight... I would imagine it would be 3 or 4 DTaps at each target.
GunGranted powers are not learned, if the gun lets you DTap then every fool can do it and there is no diversity of character build. Princess should not be just as good at DTapping as BigAl just because the pistol gives away powers, she should not be able to till she buys it with a feat
I've shown how doing it as a gun garnted power doesnt really represent the Modern way DTap is availible. I've also shown how putting it as a Class Power puts an undue burden on getting it, as well as stapling Leet Nija Skillz on for 4 levels before you can actually spend a second feat to get it. You dont need and should not have to take LeetNinjaSkilz for 4 levels just to get DTap.
What I havent seen is what folks see wrong with having it as a feat that grants the AtWill Attack Power, or doing it the same way PowerAttack Feat is done
If PowerAttack can exist as a universal feat,
whats the holdup with DTap doing it too?
or class features you don't normally have access to as part of your chosen class. Under the new 4e structure, access to Dtap and Burst powers could still be just a feat away.
uh, no... 2 feats away
1 feat to gain LeetNinjaSkilz you dont want
1 feat 4 levels later to Powerswap
@Penchant:
Originally Posted by MechaPilot
That's not actually true.
1) You can make it into a power granted by the weapon. Which means anyone who can pick up the weapon can use the power. And it can be an at-will power.
2) You can make it a weapon power that only chars with a certain feat have access to. Which means anyone who can pick up the weapon can use the power if they have the fear. And it can again be an at-will power.
3) You can make it part of a power tree that anyone can gain access to by taking a feat (similar to the pseudo-multiclassing of the spellscarred feat in 4e FR). And it can again be an at-will power.
none of which has been part of the discussion so far which is why I felt the need to interject.
Since you quoted one of my posts earlier in this thread, you have refuted your own arguement by proving that it was part of the discussion.
So while redefining exactly what a feat is, it is still an ability that should be granted through a feat rather than a class power, which is exactly what my point is.
The point that you seem to be making is that it is still a power because it would be defined in a power block with activation and key word specifics granted by a feat rather than simply text in a feat description entry.
The point I'm making is that no one wants to burn feats on a series of powers that will eventually replace each other. If you have Burst Fire, you don't need Dtap anymore. So, using the modern Dtap feat tree, you basically used up 2 feats to buy 1 power: Burst Fire.
@Backstabbist:
Quote:
or class features you don't normally have access to as part of your chosen class. Under the new 4e structure, access to Dtap and Burst powers could still be just a feat away.
uh, no... 2 feats away
1 feat to gain LeetNinjaSkilz you dont want
1 feat 4 levels later to Powerswap
Uhh, no. 1 feat away.
1 feat to gain access to the firearms power tree.
Select D-tap as an at-will power w/o burning a 2nd feat.
Since you lifted my quote from a post that suggested a power tree you get access to by taking a single firearms feat, I'm going to assume you actually read the post it was contained in.
DTap is only for XXXX class
(but others can wiggle around that by wasting a feat to get the power)
Modern is not about making it harder for everyone but The Chosen class to get Dtap or PointBlank or PowerAttack.
If we are gonna make it like Modern,
why not just make it like Modern?
Just like 4e does with PowerAttack d20 feat ----> PowerAttack 4e feat
Take a penalty ToHit and get extra damage as a feat
It is just too conveluded to take it away from everyone but one class,
by changing the Feat into a ClassPower,
then deal with the work around to bypass the restriction
by making everyone but The Chosen burn a feat(or more) to get permission to take that power
Strong: Take DTap as a feat
Fast: Take Dtap as feat
4e Fast: Take Dtap as a Classpower
4e Strong (cyberdave): Must take LeetNinja feat, then take Powerswap feat, THEN Swap for DTapCrossclassPower
4e Strong (mp): Take Firearms Feat, then can take DTapCrossClasspower
Why not just make it a feat, the Modern way to have it be something everyone can learn,
not a restricted access class specific power. Modern could have just had it as a Talent if it should have been restricted access, but they made it an everybody feat.
...........
Maybe I'm just missing something here.
What is the reason that we need to restrict access to DTap,
to the point that it costs most folks more for feats & powers to get it?
So you take Dtap. Yay! Doing more damage is fun.
You take Burst Fire to do even more damage. Yay!
Player) Wait, now Dtap is obsolete. Can I retrain it?
DM) Sure you can, but its a prereq for Burst Fire.
Player) What does that mean?
DM) That means you'll lose the ability to burst fire if you retrain it.
Player) You mean i spent 2 feats to learn one power?
DM) Yep.
That is why it makes more sense to get it from a power tree.
And there is another consideration.
Player) Wait, so he can take a feat that lets him know Dtap in addition to his normal 2 at-will powers?
DM) Yep.
Player) Is there a feat I can take to get an extra at-will slot to learn another class power?
DM) Nope.
Also, I agree that things like DTap and Burst Fire should really remain feats, this way they could maybe be used in conjunction with other powers. Heck, you can even get more creative with the whole keyword thing and make "Burstfire" a keyword in itself and have a whole power tree building off the feat.
We should be getting creative and making new things if we're going to talk a new edition, not straitjacketing ourselves because thats not how it works in another game.
And there is another consideration.
Player) Wait, so he can take a feat that lets him know Dtap in addition to his normal 2 at-will powers?
DM) Yep.
Player) Is there a feat I can take to get an extra at-will slot to learn another class power?
DM) Nope.
Again, why should things be constrained to working exactly like D&D? (Is the GSL really THAT restrictive?) Sure, lets have a feat that gives more at-will slots! Why not? Because thats not how D&D does it? So what? This is Modern, D&D is a different game.
You take Burst Fire to do even more damage. Yay!
Player) Wait, now Dtap is obsolete. Can I retrain it?
DM) Sure you can, but its a prereq for Burst Fire.
Player) What does that mean?
DM) That means you'll lose the ability to burst fire if you retrain it.
Player) You mean i spent 2 feats to learn one power?
DM) Yep.
where did you get the idea that so many characters will be taking the extra feats to use weapons that are illegal? I am sure you have seen in the modern world that there are a heck of a lot more folks with access to semiauto guns than fullauto. Tons of characters will never try to, nor ever want to take the Auto & Burst feats. The over whelming majority of Police are neither Auto nor Burst qualified, but DTap came from cops.
DTap is not a prereq to get burst, Autofire is.
Dtap is not obsoleted by Burst
The progression of
First learn Autofire at an area, then learn Burst to focus that on one target
makes some sense.
The progression of
First get Hide & Backstab feat, then get DTap
dont make sense
....................
Narukagami
ahhh, but Modern4e can work exactly like D&D4e:
M4e will have M4e Roles & Classes like Expert:Investigator
M4e will have M4e ClassPowers like GiantRobotKick2daGroin or Savant: Demo
M4e will have M4e Basic powers like Autofire Attack
M4e will have M4e Feats (which will be almost clones of D&D4e feats + Modern feats) like Power Attack & Dtap
Feats are feats,
Talents are Class Abilities and some ClassPowers
And we just name a few generic "You get to do 7x damage" or "You get to attack twice" classpowers just because in 4e you get to do stuff like that for no reason
and aint that the basic test,
if the activity is justifiable, then it is a feat or talent,
if you just get to exceed your specs for no reason, its a Classpower
DTap is not a prereq to get burst, Autofire is.
Dtap is not obsoleted by Burst
The progression of
First learn Autofire at an area, then learn Burst to focus that on one target
makes some sense.
The progression of
First get Hide & Backstab feat, then get DTap
dont make sense
Talents are Class Abilities and some ClassPowers
And we just name a few generic "You get to do 7x damage" or "You get to attack twice" classpowers just because in 4e you get to do stuff like that for no reason
and aint that the basic test,
if the activity is justifiable, then it is a feat or talent,
if you just get to exceed your specs for no reason, its a Classpower
It's actually been like 2-3 years since i've played modern. So you may well have a better recollection of what feats are prereqs for others.
Let's explore your idea about feats.
Correct me if I am wrong, but you are putting forth the theorey of feats that grant at-will powers. Unless I am misunderstanding what you have said, these powers will be in addition to the 2 at-will powers you learn at first level.
This means that a person who wants to use firearms can have 3 at-will powers at lvl 1; but people who don't want to use guns are stuck with just 2.
Instead of Big Al being forced to multi-class cuz he wanted to use guns (which I was clearly against in my post about a firearms power tree that only takes 1 feat to get access to); Bigger Al, who likes to smash things in melee combat, is cheated because he can't spend a feat to get an extra at-will power at 1st lvl.
above what guys without that magic item get?
So keepingt the count of powers absolutely even in 4e
dont seem to be a big concern for D&D4e
As for trying to pit Ranged aganst Melee for fairness,
They both get a 7[w] attack, right? Not 7[w] Melee and 4[w] Ranged?
How does one CLEAVE with a Enfield at 400' like the melee guys do?
nope, I really dont see 4e trying to keep things absolutely identical between them
(which I was clearly against in my post about a firearms power tree that only takes 1 feat to get access to);
If you name that feat "Personal FirearmsProf"
we will find a lot more common ground
Fasts need to take PFP, Strongs need to take PFP, Faces need to take PFP
(no Starting Occ in M4e, right?)
so everybody has to spend a feat to get the Guns Common Power tree access.
Can also be a keyword access control for above & beyond type class powers
You cant Strong: Encounter: SaturationAutofire or Smart Encounter:Windage&Elevation without access to Guns (ok, "Firearms") keyword from PFP Feat
dont 4e magic items grant additional powers
above what guys without that magic item get?
So keepingt the count of powers absolutely even in 4e
dont seem to be a big concern for D&D4e
As for trying to pit Ranged aganst Melee for fairness,
They both get a 7[w] attack, right? Not 7[w] Melee and 4[w] Ranged?
How does one CLEAVE with a Enfield at 400' like the melee guys do?
nope, I really dont see 4e trying to keep things absolutely identical between them
If you name that feat "Personal FirearmsProf"
we will find a lot more common ground
Fasts need to take PFP, Strongs need to take PFP, Faces need to take PFP
(no Starting Occ in M4e, right?)
so everybody has to spend a feat to get the Guns Common Power tree access.
Can also be a keyword access control for above & beyond type class powers
You cant Strong: Encounter: SaturationAutofire or Smart Encounter:Windage&Elevation without access to Guns (ok, "Firearms") keyword from PFP Feat
I'm glad we've finally found some solid common ground.
As to the first part of your post, reprinted here for ease of reference:
dont 4e magic items grant additional powers
above what guys without that magic item get?
So keepingt the count of powers absolutely even in 4e
dont seem to be a big concern for D&D4e
Yes, 4e magic items usually grant powers (or at least bonus damage dice on a crit).
This is something of an apples and oranged comparison, in that guns aren't actually magical or FX items.
The best comparison I can think of would be a Backswing feat, that lets you do extra melee damage by making a glancing blow on the backswing (the recovery from your extended postion post-striking).
Dtap and Backswing both allow for a weapon user to strike twice, with a non-magical weapon, and do less damage than normal on the second hit. In this way it is an extra power provided by a feat; but it could be excusable by the feats 2 limits:
1) The limit of requiring you to be wielding a firearm.
2) The fact that Dtap doesn't scale as you level. Most at will powers see the damage they do increase to double at lvl 21.
This would have to be playtested for a true balance comparison though.
Since we are making the M4e version,
we can have it gain 10% per level if we wanted to.
No reason we cant have it pick up power at L11 & L21 if it needs to, to be similar to other 4e stuff
But
if there is a set of Attack Powers (exploits) in unclassed Firearms Power Tree,
then do we have each one of them keyed off the next Feat in the d20Modern feat progresions? That would make it more of a Firearms Sack-o-Powers.... as you take feats out of order you get powers: You can take PB then AdvAutofire, then DTap, then Burst if you want. The powers would be level independant, making them AtWill/Encounter pattern independant.
Also, if Dtap is going to scale in power, then it should not just be an extra at-will power. If it is going to scale like the at-will class powers, then it should use one of the character's at-will power slots.
The closest thing, in the 4e PHB, to a power granted by a feat (that does not use up a power slot) is the Divinity feats. These feats draw on a class feature to allow the cleric to perform additional, feat-purchased powers with their channel divinity class feature.
I will say that I really don't think it should be necessary to require separate feats for all the firearms powers as long as a firearms power uses an appropriate power slot that would otherwise be filled by a class power.
As you have pointed out, Backstabbist, feats are more scarce in 4e than they are in modern. This means we should require less of them to be used to get access to firearms abilities.