The first thing is size. Obviously, a pistol with a suppressor on the end is longer than one without. Yet, this is ignored for most models of weapon. On the other hand, certain weapon types (MAC-10 and MAC-11 to name two) specifically state that adding a suppressor makes them one size category larger. Is this because they are small automatic weapons? Should this change of size apply to other guns?
The second thing is noise. According to Weapons Locker, a suppressed weapon must fire subsonic rounds to be truly silent. A suppressed weapon that fires standard ammo means that the noise of the shot can be heard, but a Listen check DC 15 is required to track the source of the shot by sound alone. A suppressed weapon that fire subsonic round requires a Listen check to even hear it at all.
So, if you hear a subsonic round being fired, what is the DC to track it back to it's source? Is that even possible?
In addition, certain weapons have different Listen DCs to hear them firing subsonic rounds. For instance, the DeLisle Mark 3 (page 108 Ultramodern Firearms) says it takes a Listen DC 25 to notice.
It seems to me that a single shot weapons adds +5 to hear the weapon and an intergrated silencer adds another +5. Does this sounds reasonable?
A couple of things about how silencers (more correctly known as suppressors) are handled in RAW puzzle me.
The first thing is size. Obviously, a pistol with a suppressor on the end is longer than one without. Yet, this is ignored for most models of weapon. On the other hand, certain weapon types (MAC-10 and MAC-11 to name two) specifically state that adding a suppressor makes them one size category larger. Is this because they are small automatic weapons? Should this change of size apply to other guns?
Size in this system doesn't just mean the literal size, it also suggests one's ability to carry the weapon. The reason that MAC-10's and MAC-11's get the size adjustment (according to every movie i've ever seen with suppressed versions of them) it takes two hands to hold the weapon with the suppressor attached.
The second thing is noise. According to Weapons Locker, a suppressed weapon must fire subsonic rounds to be truly silent. A suppressed weapon that fires standard ammo means that the noise of the shot can be heard, but a Listen check DC 15 is required to track the source of the shot by sound alone. A suppressed weapon that fire subsonic round requires a Listen check to even hear it at all.
So, if you hear a subsonic round being fired, what is the DC to track it back to it's source? Is that even possible?
It's implied that it isn't possible, but this is the d20 System! Nothing's impossible! Ask the Epic D&D boards! DC 25 sounds about right.
In addition, certain weapons have different Listen DCs to hear them firing subsonic rounds. For instance, the DeLisle Mark 3 (page 108 Ultramodern Firearms) says it takes a Listen DC 25 to notice.
It seems to me that a single shot weapons adds +5 to hear the weapon and an intergrated silencer adds another +5. Does this sounds reasonable?
It says in the description of that rifle that it gets that bonus because it fires a low velocity round anyway, so I don't think it being single shot (you mean Rate of Fire, right?) has anything to do with it. However, I think you could safely add that bonus to weapons that do less than 2d8 damage.
Size in this system doesn't just mean the literal size, it also suggests one's ability to carry the weapon. The reason that MAC-10's and MAC-11's get the size adjustment (according to every movie i've ever seen with suppressed versions of them) it takes two hands to hold the weapon with the suppressor attached.
I see what you're saying, but the rules are really inconsistant here. A MAC-10 is a medium sized SMG that becomes a large sized weapon when you slap on a suppressor. A Micro UZI is a medium sized SMG that remains medium when you add a suppressor. See my confusion? Same size. Same type. Heck, you can even get them in the same caliber.
It says in the description of that rifle that it gets that bonus because it fires a low velocity round anyway, so I don't think it being single shot (you mean Rate of Fire, right?) has anything to do with it. However, I think you could safely add that bonus to weapons that do less than 2d8 damage.
For the single shot rule, I was looking at the description of the H&K Mrk 23 SOCOM pistol in Weapons Locker. It mentions that the pistol has a slide lock that, when used, changes the rate of fire to single and adds the +5 for the gun to be heard.
The +5 because of the 'changed RoF' is because of the mechanical parts moving. If no mechanical parts move, then the only sound you hear is the bullet leaving the muzzle at reduced velocity (because of the silencer/subsonic rounds). That means that semi-auto and full auto weapons are easier to hear because of the moving mechanical parts, compared to single shot rifles, or the Mk23 SOCOM - which is specially designed to be a uberstealthninjagun, and therefore has the ability to fire singleshots to elimate the noise. The weapon must be cocked manually though.
The imposibility to track subsonic ammo from a supressed gun is just that. You are not making the DCXX by gun to hear the gun report (bang) and know where that noise is. What you are trying to track is the sonic boom from high velocity ammo. That is the DC15 to track back to its source. . The reason it is imposible to track the bullet noise from subsonic ammo is because it is below (sub) the speed to make a sonic boom (sonic).
JoeTarget has to make a ListenCheck DCXX to hear a supressed gun fire... and at 5 RI's for a rifle that would be rolled with like a -40 modifier for distance. He then can then try to track the non-subsonic bullet noise as it wizzes just past him DC15
Dont mix the 2 different noises into one shot sound to hear/track.
The imposibility to track subsonic ammo from a supressed gun is just that. You are not making the DCXX by gun to hear the gun report (bang) and know where that noise is. What you are trying to track is the sonic boom from high velocity ammo. That is the DC15 to track back to its source. . The reason it is imposible to track the bullet noise from subsonic ammo is because it is below (sub) the speed to make a sonic boom (sonic).
JoeTarget has to make a ListenCheck DCXX to hear a supressed gun fire... and at 5 RI's for a rifle that would be rolled with like a -40 modifier for distance. He then can then try to track the non-subsonic bullet noise as it wizzes just past him DC15
Aren't you forgetting the +1 DC for every 10 feet? Assuming the guy's 200 feet away (which isn't that much), it's suddenly DC 35 to locate the shooter.
The sound of a bullet 2 inches from your head is coming from .... not that far.
Did you hear a gunshot 400' away? Maybe
Did you hear a sonic boom 2" from your face? Oh yeah, I heard, & even felt, that.
Can you tell whete that bullet came from by the sonic boom? What, are you nuts?
It is highly unlikely that a sonic boom occurs just as the bullet zips past a target, unless of course the firearm was that close to begin with - sonic booms would then be loud to the point of deafening, and people should have no trouble finding out where the bullet came from.
sonic booms
Thus, a supersonic round is assumed (in RAW) to never drop below supersonic speed (until it reaches it's target, where it stops instantly. No overpenetration here).
I'm curious, though, for about how much of a bullet's effective range is it traveling at supersonic speed?
I thought a sonic boom traveled with the super sonic object, being basically a wave of compressed air being pushed by the object. So, for example, a Concord traveling at full speed doesn't just make a sonic boom when it breaks the sounds barrier, but all along it's flight path.
correct.
If the bullet is supersonic, you will hear it first when it passes you. But the sound waves from its previous path will reach you as well. If the initial boom didn't deafen you, you might be able to track that roar in the direction of its source.
Honestly, I think the suppressor rules are a bunch of bovine feces, perhaps there should be a set of rules for cinematic and a set for realistic, as I recall, a good suppressor will drop the sound of a shot to 50 decibels (though I could have misunderstood, might drop it by 50 decibels), which is approximately 2.5 hells of a lot more than the mouse fart noise you hear in movies. There are exceptions, as I understand it, but for the most part, even suppressed shots are loud.
An unsuppressed shot always (as far as I know, maybe not CB shorts or something like that) gets above 100 decibels, which is why you wear hearing protection. 100 decibels is loud enough to cause instant hearing damage, a lot of shooters have tinnitus for that reason.
The listen check for a suppressed shot shouldn't be tough, as long as you are close to it, perhaps a modifier if you have heard lots of gunshots, or are expecting trouble. The sonic boom, I don't really know, I haven't ever heard it, I have had the good fortune never to be shot at, and I hope to continue to have that good fortune.
.45s, 38s, .22s, .32s, and maybe 9mms shouldn't take a damage penalty from cold-loaded anyway, the standard velocity for all but .22 and 9mm are below 1k FPS, and 9mms and .22s are just barely above it, with very common ammo that is a bit lower velocity, wouldn't break the sound barrier.
Are there any rules for seeing a shot and recognizing it? What would the DC be for noticing one, and would it be reasonable to have a reflex check for either not being flatfooted, or if you already aren't, getting an AC bonus? I am talking about long range, far enough out that the bullet has to travel for a couple seconds.
edit: Nadaka and PSI snuck in posts before me. Nadaka, I am pretty sure the sonic booms aren't deafeningly loud, I have heard repeatedly that that is an internet legend.
It's not that the suppressor eliminates all noise, it's that it changes the sound so that it doesn't sound like a gunshot. Most people won't recognize it as a gunshot, and it blends into background more for that reason.
So like a BB gun in volume as well as sound, or just in sound? Because that is quieter than I thought, I could be 20 feet away from someone firing my BB gun and I wouldn't notice the shot, just the sound of the BB hitting something.
There are 3 basic sounds related to firing a gun, ill run them from greatest to least
#1 the sound of the shot, which is actually hot gasses (the same one pushing the bullet) slamming into the atmosphere. This is by far the loudest and orginates at the muzzle of the gun. This is the ONLY sound a silencer, more properly called a supressor, deals with. The more powerful the cartridge the more gas is generated to push the projectile so the more gas there is to 'neutralize' to reduce the sound
#2 the 'sonic boom' of the bullet as it passes through the air. Note, this isn't all that loud, it is related to the size of the bullet. A plane is big it has a big sonic boom bullets are small they have small ones. As long as the bullet is supersonic, it will make this noise, and it seems like it is coming from the bulle itself, not the gun. In the case of modern rifles they stay supersonic for quite some distance. Most handguns are right at the cusp. Some like 45acp are slow enough to always be under the sound barrier, others like 357 are always over, and some like 9mm have some loads that are over and some that are under. Two notes, longer barrels make more efficent use of the gunpowder, so a 9mm from a SMG is almost always supersonic, unless special ammo is used. Some supressors, especailly those on 9mm weapons, also include features intended to slow the bullet down so it is subsonic.
#3 the noise of the action. Think the racking sound when a pump shotgun works it's action. That is one of the benifits being depicted by the DeLisle and the HK SOOCOM.
now, regarding the mac 10. Technology advances. The supressors of today are better than the supressors of yesteryear, also it depends on how much money you want to spend, and how quiet you want to get it. The Mac 10 was 1970s technology and right from the get-go was designed to work with a supressor. The supressor designed right along with it was a huge thing, about 18 inches long and 5 inches in diameter. It is bigger than a 44oz Big Gulp I assume that a supressed Mac 10 is using this iconic and very large supressor.
Many silencers especially not cutting edge ones, designed for handguns that are about 6-8" long and 2" in diameter will make a gun firing sound like a car door slamming, or throwing a shoe at your door, or some other big thump. Try it, throw a running shoe at the door as hard as you can. Obviously the neighbors don't call 911 but then it would probably wake someone sleeping next door.
You can either get a bigger, longer supressor, or you can spend a lot more money and thanks to better technology and materials, get one that is the same size which reduces the sound even more.
Of course, for supersonic rifle ammunition, you'd need a huge supressor to fully counter all that nose, but #1 the sonic boom would still be present, and #2 if you are using a rifle, you have the added benifit of distance helping to muffle the sound as well, so these supressors also tend to be about 8" long and 2" wide.
Most supressors eliminate between 30 and 40 decibles of noise. Obviously, this greatly reduces the sound of a 22 being fired, but doesn't do all that much for a 300 ultramag.
especially for pistols, your gun barrel must be specially designed to accept a supressor, you can't just go get a silencer and screw it on.
Of course, none of these gaming systems have multiple types, qualities and prices of supressors. That would just bog the rules down too much.
P.S. I tried to pick ones with cute shooters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dUGbhFbU5k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9g7nwRNCr4&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kly-fVUi1I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGUiTC4iBKk&feature=related <--hotties in a minute or two, err lukewarm hotties
This one doesn't have any cute people shooting from what I remember, but it has suppressors, belt-feds, and automatics. A suppressed AR-15 in there is especially interesting, you can tell there are two distinct sounds coming from the shots, the zip and the crack. Slow loading for me, though.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kxLoahwIwqU
edit: Its got a garand too, that alone makes it worth watching.
Does this mean, for argument's sake, a PC could go out and buy a MAC with a "modern" suppressor and it wouldn't increase it's size?
Also, how hard is it to modify a standard firearm to accomidate a suppressor. IIRC, the rules state it takes a Repair check DC 15. How accurate is that?
McQ
Note the tennisball can suppressor on an already subsonic standard load 45acp
So what you're saying is that the notation about the MAC-10/MAC-11 increasing in size because of suppressor is because that device is kind of antiquated?
right, it is like a 1980's cell phone
Does this mean, for argument's sake, a PC could go out and buy a MAC with a "modern" suppressor and it wouldn't increase it's size?
I suppose so, but it really doesn't make a lot of sense. Might as well buy a modern SMG with a modern suporessor. MAC-10s haven't been made for a while, but there are always crates of old military good turning up some dusty old warehouse or sitting in some gunrunner's inventory. Your "brand new" MAC-10 is probably sitting in packing grease for 30 years, with the old school supressor right next to it.
Also, how hard is it to modify a standard firearm to accomidate a suppressor. IIRC, the rules state it takes a Repair check DC 15. How accurate is that?
For some rifles with flash supressors or muzzle breaks, if these are threaded on, you just unscrew them and screw on the supressor, provided you purchased one with matching threads, otherwise, most common assault rifles have pretty specific flash supressors, so some sound supressors are designed to mate with that specific flash supressor
In general, a handgun needs a barrel that sticks out about a half inch from the front of the gun and the outside of this barrel must be threaded. If you have a modern handgun of decent power (9mm parabellum or above) they are going to be a delayed blowback, so you simply fieldstrip the gun, and when you re-assemble, rather than inserting the original barrel, you insert a longer, threaded one. This should simply be a DC check to purchase the longer threaded barrel, or can be included righ along with the supressor purchase check. most smaller caliber pistols have a rigidly fixed barrel attached right to the frame, so your only recourse would be to cut away at the slide, and then try and cut threads into teh barrel. It basically wouldn't work well at all. Some small old pistols would be easy to convert, others wouldn't. You will see a lot of Colt 1903s in .32acp with supressor stand in for many other small guns in movies because it is one that takes a supressor easily
For the game, modern serious pistol simply make a purchase check to also get a threaded barrel. For somehing older and smaller, make a knowledge check: firearms to know if you can effectively mount a supressor, if not, you now need to purchase TWO things, a handgun you can easily mount a supressor on, and the supressor itself
The DC check to put the supressor on should be about on par with the most minor of gun repairs, one step above basic field maintence. The DC check on putting a supressor on a gun that is ill-suited to taking one should be one step less difficult than building a firearm from scratch.