Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mystical-unibrow Dec 23, 2008 18:38:31	Are there any rules for step-by-step starship construction instead of modifying existing ones? Core, non-core, from some other d20 product, fan-made, anything goes as long as it's d20 Future compatible. Specifically, I'm looking for some rules on general hulls/chassis', without having to derive them from specific examples. Also, can please someone explain how the fire-linked weapons work? Why would I want a single shot at x1.5 damage instead of two at normal damage?
#2 nclanceman Dec 23, 2008 20:48:19	Heh. "Starhips" Heheheh- We now interrupt NCLanceman's adolecent giggling to plug the d20 Mecha system, which can be used to make pretty much anything. Even starships. And now, back to the program. -heheheheheheheh. I've got nothing.
#3 narukagami Dec 23, 2008 20:55:04	Are there any rules for step-by-step starship construction instead of modifying existing ones? Core, non-core, from some other d20 product, fan-made, anything goes as long as it's d20 Future compatible. Specifically, I'm looking for some rules on general hulls/chassis', without having to derive them from specific examples. d20 mecha can be used to make anything. Also, can please someone explain how the fire-linked weapons work? Why would I want a single shot at x1.5 damage instead of two at normal damage? Simple: it doesn't work, and they just didn't bother to think things through when they wrote it. Much like most of d20 Future.
#4 rustam1 Dec 23, 2008 21:19:30	there are several out there that have made a stab at ship construction d20 Mecha http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~rismith/Mecha/srd/index.html http://sites.google.com/site/d20futurecampaign/Home/files Blood&Space http://www.rpgobjects.com/index.php?c=product&o[p_id]=58 SpaceShips
#5 spartan_063 Dec 23, 2008 21:50:13	Simple: it doesn't work, and they just didn't bother to think things through when they wrote it. Much like most of d20 Future. I think their idea was to make a trade-off, less of a gamble, less reward. You can get 2 shots for full damage, with the chance one might miss, or you've got one shot at 1.5 the damage without having to worry about losing half your power to a miss. I think. Then again you raise a hyper-valid point.
#6 narukagami Dec 23, 2008 21:55:45	I think their idea was to make a trade-off, less of a gamble, less reward. You can get 2 shots for full damage, with the chance one might miss, or you've got one shot at 1.5 the damage without having to worry about losing half your power to a miss. Which is better: A) Chance of no damage at all or a little extra damage. or B) Chance of no damage at all, chance of normal damage, and a chance of double damage.
#7 backstabbist Dec 23, 2008 23:04:22	The reason to use a Linked 1.5x is to have the targets Hardness applied just once to the higher damage shot, resulting in more post-hardness damage. If you had two 10d8(45) guns vs a 30 Hardness ship: A) (45)-30 plus (45)-30 = 30 B) (45) x1.5 Link is (68), and (68)-30 = 38 well... I never said it was a good reason
#8 mystical-unibrow Dec 24, 2008 4:35:14	Rustam1, I checked out Space and Blood and it looks like just what I had in mind, specifically the hull table and the slots. I didn't have time to peruse the complete book, so can you tell me how do I convert Kcredits into PDC? Mecha also looks good, and perhaps easier to customize, but also I feel it requires some adaptation to make it into starship-specific construction rules, and I'm not yet that good with the system. I think I might like this system even more than S&B, once I get a little expirience. Backstabbist, thanks, I guess that does make sense. I haven't had much expirience, is it generally worth firelinking? Cause I'm looking at PL7 weapon damages and the averages seem well above the average armor hardness, and firelinking generally seems to just barely beat the non-fire-linked damage. Especially when using an extended firelink. By your example: 4x 45(-30) = 60 45x2 (-30) = 60 8x 45(-30) = 120 45x2.5 = 112.5 Is there a way to make fire-linking more useful? Maybe adding an attack bonus or a crit-range bonus? Both seem to me as plausible effects of focus-fire. Also, when I think of weapon batteries I think of bombardment, of a row of cannons firing in the general direction of the enemy attempting to either cause a massive damage over a wide area or using sheer quantity to compensate for the lack of precision. That's seem more a nod toward area attacks rather than an attack/crit range bonus. If anything, I'd say that'd be something to look in fire-linked weapons (at least by my idea of fire-linked weapons). Is there a way to bring area attacks into it, seeing as starships don't have Ref saves? Because other way to simulate carpet-firing would be an attack bonus with reduced overall damage (something's bound to hit, but not all), and I'm not sure if that'd be worth it. EDIT: Going by Mecha rules area attacks would seem viable.
#9 spartan_063 Dec 24, 2008 8:44:09	Batteries represent the sheer ammount of firepower being directed at one area/target by increasing the crit range for the same reason you suggested to make it a +Attack/-Damage: not everything's gonna hit, but with so much firepower going down range, the chance of hitting something important just went up.
#10 backstabbist Dec 24, 2008 11:53:26	Battery is already supposed to represent an area fire, by the assumption that of 4 shots fired over an area there will be only one hit but that hit would be more likely.... akin to having just 3 or 4 pellets of birdshot in a 3' 100pellet pattern hit a dove. Battery does standard damage but with a better chance to hit due to several shots in a pattern rather than all focused on one spot (Linked). Correct, the Link/Battery rules are ungodyly absurd when you get past the first or second stage of doubling.... to have a +2Battery of 2xLinks is 16guns Cause I'm looking at PL7 weapon damages and the averages seem well above the average armor hardness, and firelinking generally seems to just barely beat the non-fire-linked damage If you had 4 guns to fire at a ship with 30Hardness would you like 30 points subtracted from you damage or 120 subtracted for Hardnesses with -0/-5/-10/-15 penalties on the ToHit? You are encountering the classic d20 Nerf: 1 + 1 does not equal 2 1+1= 1.5 (double) 1+3= 2 (double double) Looking at the shipguns, several can be modified to fire rate Auto, have you seen any rules on GunneryDoubleTap/ GunneryAutofire/ GunneryBurstfire? DoubleTap a 24d8 linkgun and it will do 24d8 + 1d8 for the Dtap? On a side note, see if you can find the DailyReels of when StarWars was being filmed, so you can see the fight Han & Luke had over who was going to take a -5 on thier ToHit when shooting at the fighters from the Falcon. WoC must have talked Lucas into leaving that filmed arguement on the cutting room floor to protect the d20 Ship Gunnery Rules. Luke had to use Han's BAB with a -5 instead of using his own BAB full... and only take one shot, even if Luke's BAB allowed +6/+1 himself
#11 nobodez_here Dec 24, 2008 15:43:12	As others have said, it comes down to hardness and attacks. IF you want to fire all your guns at once, you don't quite get as much damage, but it all happens at once, and all at the same spot, rather than a line up and down the hull. I'd rather have my four fire-linked gun shooting at the same spot and blowing a hole in the ship, rather than each taking a shot and walking the small craters up the hull, each one getting further from my initial target at the ships move in space. Plus, you can always make multiple attacks with your linked weapons. Why have a bunch of guns you can't use, when you can fire them all at once and deal more damage?
#12 mystical-unibrow Dec 24, 2008 16:42:45	I don't think I understand. I have the d20 Future, and the only references to attacks I have are p.110, p.115. and p.141 Gunner’s Ranged Attack Bonus: For simplicity, all gunners aboard a starship have identical ranged attack bonuses. ATTACK (RANGED) As a single attack action, a starship can fire one or more of its ranged weapons at any target or targets within range and within line of sight. Semiautomatic (S): A semiautomatic ranged weapon fires one shot per attack (effectively acting as a single shot weapon). However, a gunner who gains multiple attacks per round because of his level or because of certain feats can fire a semiautomatic beam weapon multiple times in rapid succession, getting more than one shot per attack. The way I read that was that all weapons are fired at the full BAB. If BAB allows for additional attacks, another round is fired with all weapons, at -5, etc. A ship with 4 lasers and a PC crew of 4 gunners with BAB +20: 1) Move 2) Fire 4 lasers at +20 BAB each 3) Fire 4 lasers at +15 BAB each 4) Fire 4 lasers at +10 BAB each 5) Fire 4 lasers at + 5 BAB each 6) Move With firelinking being an solution when you have 4 gunners on a ship with more than 4 weapons. Not so? I don't believe I have seen those feats either, where are they from?
#13 backstabbist Dec 24, 2008 18:11:59	Lets see what WoC has to say about Gunnery BAB: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20modern/bp/20041116a A ship may fire one weapon system multiple times (if it has a gunner who can fire more than once per round because of a high base attack bonus), or it may fire all its weapons once each. A ship must have at least one gunner per weapon system fired in a round -- a single gunner cannot fire multiple weapons. If more than one weapon is fired in the same round, only the primary one fires at its full attack bonus; each of the others takes a -5 penalty. Consider for example a group of gunners, each with attack bonuses of +11/+6/+1, on a ship with two fire-linked maser cannons (primary) and four nuclear missiles. The chief gunner could take over the main guns and fire the masers three times at +11/+6/+1, modified by any other bonuses or penalties that apply (such as size or targeting system). Alternatively, the whole gunner crew can fire once. In that case, the masers fire at +11, and every other weapon fires at +6. Again, both of these attack bonuses are modified by any other bonuses or penalties that may apply. Not to worry about the ruling that one guy cannot fire multiple weapons... the Ultralights get exempted so the Fighters can break that ruling to have the one pilot do 4 guys jobs at once. However, non-Fighters dont get so lucky, they have the PC Gunnery Nightmare. I made the same mistake I always make in my earlier post- I keep incorrectly thinking it is -0/-5/-10..., but that Bullet Points says it is -0 Primary and an infinate number of weapons firing at just a single -5 "Secondary". Guess they didnt want to use the term tertiary or quatrinary, BP says its -0/-5/-5/-5...... But If your MasterGunner is a +20BAB he can fire his gun multiple times but NOBODY ELSE GETS TO FIRE! If Han fired his gun twice Luke is not alowed to fire at all. You can have the Master make an iterative attack, OR have multiple weapons(gunners) fire once each. DoubleTap/Burst? [INDENT]MSDR Burst Fire Prerequisites: Wisdom 13, Personal Firearms Proficiency, Advanced Firearms Proficiency. Benefit: When using an automatic firearm with at least five bullets loaded, the character may fire a short burst as a single attack against a single target. The character receives a –4 penalty on the attack roll, but deal +2 dice of damage. Firing a burst expends five bullets and can only be done if the weapon has five bullets in it. Normal: Autofire uses ten bullets, targets a 10-foot-by-10-foot area, and can’t be aimed at a specific target. Without this feat, if a character attempts an autofire attack at a specific target, it simply counts as a normal attack and all the extra bullets are wasted. Special: If the firearm has a three-round burst setting, firing a burst expends three bullets instead of five and can be used if the weapon has only three bullets in it ----- d20FutureSRD Mecha and Feats If you have the Mecha Weapon Proficiency feat, any feats that apply to firearms (such as Double Tap and Strafe) also apply to relevant ranged mecha weapons.[/INDENT] That pesky word "firearms" and dependancy of Personal Firearm Prof make the good feats like Dtap & Burstfire not applicable to ships, and unlike Mechs we dont have them shoehorned in with text in the d20Future rules. The sad precedant is they specificly required a different Strafe feat than personal firearm Strafe feat.... and that bodes ill for trying to bring over other handgun feats directly. Gunnery Autofire? the Future feat GunneryStrafe refers to a normal gunnery autofire as 1000x1000, kinda implying that it exists. You would think a 2000' big ship would be easier to hit than a 32' Fighter with Autofire... wouldnt ya. You see any actual rules on doing a Gunnery Autofire or what the save is? I look at the ModernMM minigun and its high RefDC, you would think a Future autofire would be at leats that impressive... right? Dont really matter too much anyway, since it would be a Pilot RefSave, and they are going to be DexMonkeys making Autofire a waste of time.
#14 lord_of_the_ninth_02 Dec 26, 2008 6:03:34	It always baffled me why it was that if you had multiple people manning multiple weapon systems that they would in any way influence what actions the others could take, or what penalties were applied to attack rolls. I mean why is it that if both Bob the gunner and Phil the gunner are both firing lasers on a ship that they cannot act independently of each other, in so far as the number of attacks they can make and the attack bonuses to those attacks. I understand why a gunner might only be able to use one weapon system in any given round. I imagine weapon systems as having their own special controls, like the turrets on the Falcon in A New Hope. However, why would Luke be a worse shot just because Han was shooting too? Why not just resolve it independently? I think that would make it more fun for a party controlling a starship, instead of arbitrarily penalizes all but the lead gunner, and thus letting them have all the fun. Also, as a side note, I think d20 Future needs rules for using AIs and the like to replace crew on some of the larger starships so that parties aren't limited to filling their ships with nameless NPCs or running around in ultralights. Plus also it happens in sci-fi all the time. And for the original poster: I'm surprised no one has mentioned Future Tech yet. It has rules for designing ships from scratch. I'm not sure they're as tightly put together as they could be (some issues with underlying mechanics seem poorly explained). But if you want built from scratch starship rules meant to work with existing d20 future ships that's where I'd start.