Robyn.
China does, and pretty much always has, used Norinco rifles. Right now the standard issue is the Type 95 (QBZ 95), a 5.8x42mm bullpup assault rifle. Statistically, it shouldn't deviate from an average 5.56mm rifle. A carbine version of the 95 is also used, basically similar to an M4, and a light support weapon version, which would be similar to an M249 with a 75 round drum, and a new JS submachinegun, a 9mm version of the carbine Type 95
Their precision rifle is the Type 88 (QBU 88) DMR that uses a match grade 5.8x42mm round, also a bullpup (all of the QB series are), and a 10 round magazine.
Their AMR is the Type 99 12.7mm, which is just an average .50 cal 5-round semi-auto rifle.
Older rifles are the Type 87, Type 81, and Type 56 assault rifles, and Type 79/85 sniper rifles. Those are AK/SKS and RPK based weapons in the original AK calibers or in 5.8x42mm, and are still in pretty heavy use.
Their issue pistol is the QSZ-92, in 9mm or in a necked 5.8mm bullet that really doesn't perform that much different, with a 15 round magazine.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=578180
I might be dating myself but, a while ago in '91 in my HS govt class my teacher was listing off Chinese population figures. He was saying that if you take the chinese man (and only the man) line them up seven across and march them into the sea that you'd NEVER run out. I suppose nowadays its eight across. ;) .
That's what I thought of when you mentioned this.
try this site: http://www.globalsecurity.org/
Look under Intelligence and then under FIS (Foreign Intelligence Services). Do the same thing under the Military heading.
That should give you all the info you need for simple gaming purposes.
And Actually I have seen Red Dawn, but I got the Inspiration from a game I just beat called Freedom Fighters, But thats about Russians taking over the U.S.A., If you into that kind of stuff I recemend that you pick it up its fun. and yet agian Thanks.
Robyn
Actually, China is modernizing their army too. They're going from an overwhelming horde to a well-trained horde.
Especially considering that they outnumber the US Military about 5-to-1. Add to that a well trained, highly disciplined modern army and you have problems. That sounds like a fun campaign.
Of course my favourite was the one where we were fighting the American expansionist forces in the Canadian shield.
Especially considering that they outnumber the US Military about 5-to-1.
Remember, that mean the USA will get 5 times more out of each nuclear bomb than china :D .
Or are you saying that upon an attack by China, the US should launch a nuclear attack on the Chinese mainland, despite the fact that for the past 60 years the United State's policy for the use of nuclear weapons has been retalitory?
Basically, China is a major threat to the US. Our national will to fight has been declining for the past 50 years; we try to make up for this by having a supurb armed forces, but the soldiers can't fight unless the nation backs them up.
Personally, I'd guess that people who write up any kind of military policy aren't really thinking about the possibility of direct invasion, and a "get the mother hell out of the US or we'll turn Hebei province into ash" is probably a pretty realistic response to a major military landfall by China.
But would the US nuclear arms policy hold up to an actual invasion?
Frist of all you have to know what the Policy is,which is we use nuclear weapons in the following ways A nuke is a bioweapon is a checmical weapon and which is to say we respond to use of WMDS with nuclear weapons. But I don't think we would use them on our own soil. And we may use them before the other side uses them only if there is NO other choice.
Then of course, there's the landfall itself... one can't expect an invading army to simply run into port with a bunch of ships and start offloading military hardware. They'd have to do something that'd give them the time and opportunity.. which might be something that would provoke a nuclear response.
Alternatively, China could take a Falloutish path and invade through the north, which the US might be able to miss or decide to politick with for a while, long enough that an invading army could spread across Canada, allowing them to attack dozens of points across the northern US border, along with a naval landing on the west coast.
Our national will to fight has been declining for the past 50 years; we try to make up for this by having a supurb armed forces, but the soldiers can't fight unless the nation backs them up.
Ditto.
Pacifism and basic ignorance (of the lessons of history) is a deadly combination that is going to get us killed.
See my sig.
:fight!:
Okay, enough politicizing. From a logistical standpoint, does China have the air or sea power to transport enough troops to our shores before we light them up?
I wouldn't think so, but I could be wrong.
Cool campaign idea, by the way.
It seems to me that many Oriental cultures (particularly China), have very little respect for human life.
You could represent this in game terms by giving footsoldiers a drug that mimics the Tough Hero's "Remain Conscious" talent.
My dad has told me stories of guys in Korea that would wrap their arms and legs with rope and stoke themselves on PCP (among other things) before going into battle.
He said you would almost literally have to blow them apart to stop them because of the effects of the drugs. In many cases a killing wound would have very little effect as long as their body was still intact. He said it was scary as heck, and my dad is as tough as nails.
That could make for really tense combats at the table. Imagine the bad guy failing his massive damage save, and then proceeding to take you apart barehanded...
Okay, enough politicizing. From a logistical standpoint, does China have the air or sea power to transport enough troops to our shores before we light them up?
I wouldn't think so, but I could be wrong.
They don't have the power or sea capablity to do either one. But yeah it is an over all cool idea for a game.
From a logistical standpoint, does China have the air or sea power to transport enough troops to our shores before we light them up?
But from backstabbit's example.. how many troops could be bunkered inside a pair of empty tankers that sail into the harbors of San Diego, Long Beach, San Francisco, Eureka, Crescent City, Portland, Olympia, and Seattle? And how many people could they have in place throughout the country before that actually happens?
Forget Red Dawn and parachuting into the heartlands, you could fly ten guys at a time in on flights landing all over the country, a hundred men a day landing in airports all over the nation without anyone even raising an eyebrow.
I think it's plausible that China could land ten thousand men into major ports, a few thousand into smaller ports, and a few hundred into oceanside towns all along the west coast without much trouble at all, with the help of a few thousand men infiltrated on regular commerical flights.
In the modern world, a direct invasion of the US is really not logistically plausible, but infiltration and small incursions are far more possible now, and far more difficult to resist... but then you do come up against something that is almost more dangerous than the domestically stationed US armed forces.. it's citizens.
You don't just have skilled riflemen all across the nation, people who could in small groups decimate an entire platoon without being seen.. you have multiple militia groups with varying degrees of military-grade equipment, organized crime groups, and street gangs. While fighting national guard units and rapid-response army units for control zones around the ports you invaded, you've got to worry about hunting rifles, crazies with converted Armalites, those guys in that old Cadillac that might be about to pull out a couple ironically Chinese AK's, and what better way to get your rag than popping some troops from an invading army? That'd just seem like a nightmare for an invasion force.
The US should imediately retaliate by nuking San Fransisco, Berkley, Seatle, & Taxxachusetts whether troops are there or not.
Anyway, my sceneario would go like this:
I don't think China is stupid enough to launch an attack on the U.S. just yet. first I think they would use economical measures to weaken the USA. The USA is largely dependant on China for all kinds of import goods and also China has bought up much of the U.S.'s public debt. China could excise a payback of that debt and break-off trade relations entirely, which would result in the USA being screwed. People will lose jobs, public projects and defense will run out of money and the life of the average American citizen will just degrade very fast. They will possibly become angry at their government, resulting in riots, mutiny in the army and well basically, total chaos in the US main land. This will hurt the defensive capabilities of the US a lot.(no money for soldiers that already have to try to cope with domestic issues) At this point I think the Chinese would possibly be able to launch an invasion. Of course, this is probably simplified, cause I am sure the US goverment will have some aces up its sleeve and such, but I have faith in the Chinese.
As towards the notional invasion plans given above, all I can say is I hope they are that dumb. Flying people in commercial guarantees they'll arrive unarmed and out of uniform, so we can treat them as terrorists when they try to steal weapons. Super container ships can only dock at a handful of ports in the world due to their draft; trying to beach one would leave your troops swimming to shore (read up on Tarawa for why that is not a good idea). And, even if you did manage to get some forces ashore (presuming the use of the San Pedro Super Container Port), you'd have the First Marine Division on the right, whoever's at NTC besides the 11th ACR in front of you and the California National Guard (an Army in its own right) to the north. Plus all the headaches in LA, gangs being the least of the problems. All this with a few thousand troops, no air support and probably no armor.
This situation is called 'Sitting Duck'.
The better solutions for the People's Republic of China is a long term trade war, which they can't prosecute too vigorously give their dependence on the US as an export market. Course, if they did we could just cut off the oil in flow and that nice shiny army would grind to a halt.
The Chinese have more problems than most of us realize (but that's a major threadjack that I'll skip).
Oggie
As towards the notional invasion plans given above, all I can say is I hope they are that dumb. Flying people in commercial guarantees they'll arrive unarmed and out of uniform, so we can treat them as terrorists when they try to steal weapons.
The plus side of the modern world is that you can UPS them their uniforms, bags of clothing get not a whole lot of interest from customs, if they don't want to take whatever risk is associated with them carrying their uniforms with them on the flights. And you can buy weapons quite readily from some of the very people who'd end up shooting back at them when their invasion starts.
...but then you do come up against something that is almost more dangerous than the domestically stationed US armed forces.. it's citizens.
Oh, no kiddin'!
We may have some real dumb-bunnies here in Louisiana, but two things we ain't is (1) scared, and (2) unarmed.
And almost everybody here can shoot. Between Billy Ray, Catfish, Skeeter, Scooter, Eddie, Bubba, and Flash, we got enough ammo to level Washington D.C.
And that's just the guys. You really don't wanna mess with Sharon Jean, Norma Ray, Jessie Faye, Essie May, Marcia Gay, and Large Marge. Hell hath no fury like a Southern woman that thinks you might be messin' with one of her babies...
First, in answer to Jedi Niyte's question, the ChiComs do not have the capacity to get across the Straits to invade Taiwan...
ChiComs? I sense the presence of a fellow Ditto-head...
The US should imediately retaliate by nuking San Fransisco, Berkley, Seatle, & Taxxachusetts whether troops are there or not.
:heehee
:heehee Hmmm...you'd whack a lot of communists like that.
:angelhide
Yes, China does not have the sealift capacity to invade Taiwan. However, they are modernizing.
However. This is a really good idea for a campaign!
First of all, we can place it now, or in the immediate future, when the bulk of the US forces are deployed around the world. So, that weakens the defence of the CONUS (Continental US).
Second, we can say that the Chinese deployed troops in two ways:
1.) Converted supertankers that get as close to shore as they can, and then deploy troops via hovercraft (that's a fantastic mental image for the PCs in and of itself)
2.) AirChina (or whatever the domestic air line of China is) sends over planes loaded with Chinese paras.
Third, we can say that another few converted supertankers will serve as disguised aircraft carriers.
Now, is this realistic? No. Is it plausible enough to work? Yes.
Basically, the PCs would be ordinary folk. They would go about their jobs, go about their lives, and one day they would wake up to hear the shriek of jet engines and the crackle of automatic weapons fire. The PCs would be one of those American citizens who would make the Chinese pay for every step in blood. They would probably be (initially) undertrained, undergunned, and lack coordination. However, as the fight went on (you could even have a couple of montages or "cutscenes" or something flashing back to Chinese commanders reporting about, "unexpected enemy resistance"), the PCs would either end up taking command from a centralized authority, or end up coordinating the defense themselves.
Think about it.
A late-campaign mission could be to get out to one of those carrier-tankers, sneak on board, have the Smart Hero hack the computers and get Chinese encryption codes while the blue-coller Tough and Strong heroes run about the ship placing demo charges, getting cover fire from the Fast hero, getting patched up by the Dedicated hero, while the Charismatic hero says (in Chinese), "We're good, we're fine, everybody's fine. How are you?"
Wow. I so want to do this now.
edit: OOO! Even cooler! As people have mentioned, the Chinese have historically been very careless of human lives. I haven't heard the PCP story, but in my study of the Korean War, Chinese troops seemed to make up for a lack of heavy firepower by strict discipline, vicious attacks, and numbers. At the start, they would infiltrate under cover of night and attack from all sides, overwhelming the enemy in a cacophony of bugles, drums, horns, whistles, guns, and men, and/or setting up roadblocks in the rear to prevent reinforcements. Once they couldn't do that any more, they turned to the classic human wave assaults.
Now. Yes, as somebody mentioned, you could give the Chinese a "keep on tickin'" drug to make them tougher. Also, you can give them moreau troops (preferably overt) for different uses. Bears for heavy weapons/shock, rats as cannon fodder, bats as commandoes, etc etc etc.
If you want to make them really evil, have them turn all the prisoners they take into brainwashed Moreau troops.
This would be more feasible than massive rocket assist hydroplane beaching, light the fuse 300m from the sand and zoom up to foil speed and WHUMP, terra firma
I'm still fairly certain that harbors are a plausibly decent landing zone. The harbor here in Vancouver isn't terribly large, but on any given day there are a dozen tankers, container ships and car haulers in the inlet, and several docked. Plus the container ship facility south of the city, which is supposed to be larger but I've never actually seen it. And there isn't anything at all that would get in the way if one of those car haulers got ramps up to the holds and instead of new cars going to the automall, ZTZ-98's and infantry loaded onto WZ-551's, they could offload enough ground forces to start moving into the city very quickly.
Anyone onboard would have had a lot of time to prepare the evac and dispersal, because thinking that the port is a good spot to hang around until everyone else gets off is pretty stupid, and so small units could break off pretty deep into cities before any kind of response gets moving.
From one of the car ships, being eight or nine guys back, it's about fifteen minutes from inside the ship, to the highway, and into the automall. Take a lead foot off to account for a slightly slower APC, and that means probably two hundred troops could be into the heart of Vancouver within twenty minutes of a ship's doors opening, and that's just off one ship, through one cargo door... I'm sure army engineers could find a way to get men off of ships and into dispersed cover a lot faster than a bunch of guys being paid to deliver new (undamaged) cars.
I mean, if the "Chinese have taken over" scenario" is already in place at the start of the campaign, then the debate about HOW the Chinese did this in a probable manner is basically moot-- unless your players are psycho-sticklers. But then again, if they are, they'd probably still have trouble justifying the use of Shadow in Urban Arcana too... :P
Here's a bit of a rundown on the alternate timeline that they used in Freedom Fighters:
The Russians Are Coming
In Freedom Fighters, the Cold War never really happens. The USSR drops the first A-bomb to end WWII and basically runs things around the globe, culminating with a semi-covert invasion of the modern-day United States. We pick up the story of Christopher Stone, a mild-mannered plumber, on his way to fix a leaky pipe or two in Manhattan. Things take a turn for the worse when the lady with the leaky pipes turns out to be an outspoken anti-communist leader and you're knee-deep in the middle of the US-USSR conflict.
The game does a marvelous job of maintaining the illusion of a Soviet-run New York City. The barricades on city streets, the pro-Soviet posters in the environment and the well done newscasts full of propaganda are all top-notch and every cutscene just reinforces the idea. The concept may have borrowed heavily from the film "Red Dawn" but the Russian invasion in Freedom Fighters is at least as believable as Patrick Swayze with a machine gun.
I mean, if the "Chinese have taken over" scenario" is already in place at the start of the campaign, then the debate about HOW the Chinese did this in a probable manner is basically moot
Yeah but if we never talked about things that weren't really relevant, what the hell would we do all the time? :D
As for what Razorface has pointed out (good work, BTW), a sizeable amount of troops can be dumped onshore by a single car-carrier. Furthermore, on their WZ-551s, they'd have .50s, 73mm guns, 25mm guns, ATGMs, 105mm or 122mm howitzers, or 120mm mortars (different configs). Lets see. 9 infantrymen ride in the back, and it can go at 50mph on roads. Its amphibious too.....the Type 86 series (WZ-501) is a Soviet BMP-1, so it's amphibious too. The Type 85 (YW-531H) is another APC that's also amphibious.
...as a matter of fact, it seems that every Chinese APC is amphibious....
Ok. So, taking Raz's Vancouver scenario, and my converted supertanker idea, here's the info:
Vancouver is approached through a waterway (Straits of Juan de Fuca), where if you turn north, you go to Vancouver, and if you turn south, you go to Seattle. US bases in the region include Whitby Island NAS, Puget Sound Naval Station, Fort Lewis, McChord AFB (although i didn't find it on Google maps, it's supposed to be to the east of Seattle), and the Bangor Sub Base. So, there is an EW wing (no joke! 15 EW squadrons!), a patrol wing (5 squads, looks like sub hunters), a logistics wing, and a SAR wing at Whitby Island, a nuclear carrier and two nuclear cruisers at Puget Sound, SSBNs at Bangor, 2 infantry brigades, an airborne SF group, a Ranger battalion, and a chopper brigade at Lewis, and an airlift wing at McChord.
The Canadians have an armored recon regiment (the British Columbia regiment), one regiment of field engineers, and two artillery regiments, all reserve, in Vancouver. The Canadians also have 19th Wing in the Comox Valley, but they only have SAR and sub-hunters. The only good news is that Esquimalt is near Vancouver, and Esquimalt is the HQ for the Canadian Pacific Fleet. Raz, can you tell us how far away that is from Vancouver?
Now. The scenario is that Chinese ships proceed down the waterway. The terrain north of Vancouver is pretty rough, so doesn't look like much of a chance of a mech infantry thrust to the north of Van. and cutting east. The south looks a lot better place for the ChiComs to drop amphibious APCs. If they do what Raz says, and get APCs in the middle of Vancouver, they could very well take it easily, especially if they drop airborne troops to the north (or land infantry via hovercraft), and land to the south and cut it off from the rear. Now, there isn't any US/Can fighter cover, unless that Nimitz-class happens to be berthing. The P-3s and other ASW planes might be able to take out ChiCom transports, but any air cover would destroy them. If they have converted container ships with flat decks, you could have STOVL aircraft do their short roll off, and land vertically in the rear. That would give them their own air cover.
Grr. Have to go get laundry. Still, the only kink in the plan is the presence of the Canadian navy.
The Canadians have an armored recon regiment (the British Columbia regiment), one regiment of field engineers, and two artillery regiments, all reserve, in Vancouver.
Also at the airport is a wing of either F15's or F18's.. I don't really remember, but I've seen them scrambled before when there was a C5 flying north into the city, they got sent up.
The only good news is that Esquimalt is near Vancouver, and Esquimalt is the HQ for the Canadian Pacific Fleet. Raz, can you tell us how far away that is from Vancouver?
Vancouver Island, just outside of Victoria.. it's about seventy miles south-west of Vancouver, twenty miles north of Port Angeles, WA. If a ship was up and ready to sail, it could get to Vancouver in a little over an hour. There's about 4000 personnel, and an air wing... but when people think "Headquarters for the Pacific Fleet".. what you're thinking of isn't quite what CFB Esquimalt actually is. Fourteen ships are stationed out of CFB Esquimalt, which doesn't mean that fourteen are actually there. Six minesweepers, one submarine, four frigates, one destroyer, a yacht, and a fuel ship.
If you sail past that without being noticed, there's very few forces actually in Vancouver... the province has a reserve brigade spread across it, and most of it isn't anywhere near here. And what is here, is packed into warehouses, since we don't have any more bases.
Still, the only kink in the plan is the presence of the Canadian navy.
And what a navy it is.. Fear the HMCS Oriole. It'll wave flags and sail around you. Some of the ships in our navy can't actually keep up to the ships in our ferry service.
A covert landing in a city like this is something that would result in brutal block by block fighting, with enough time from the landing to the start of any real resistance to establish some pretty solid positions, or simply get on the highway and head for a rally point further inland. I honestly don't think that any of the reserve units here would put up much fight, if any. They might actually get ordered not to resist.
In the US, forces in garrison/in port are not on war footing. This is one of the great ironies of the military. When I was at Norfolk (the largest naval base in the world) The ships in port are a vunerable target. Without getting into too much OPSEC related material, the main defense of the base and ships falls to the security force/police that patrol the base and it's immediate perimeter (including the water). Not even a couple miles away is Port Norfolk and supertankers constantly pass by the military vessels in port at a distance of a couple hundred yards. If a concentrated attack was focused at the ships or base....let's not talk about it.
Carrier's in port do not maintain their airwings. In fact, the airwing normally departs the ship about a day prior to berthing.
Also, from a Marine's perspective, it doesn't take a large force to take and hold a beachead for a limited amount of time. A reinforced battalion sized force just needs to hold the port (any port) until heavier forces can begin to roll off. Remember, the first response is local law enforcement who would be woefully incapable of repelling a well trained/armed military force. it would take a while before a military counterattack could be organized/mounted to take back the port (at least an hour or more). Air power would be effective (and a greater worry) against the docking ships. But once a sizeable maneuver force has been landed, and begins to move out from the beachead, they could rapidly advance before being in any serious danger.
That does not exclude small counterattacks from US forces that are readily deployable (ie. SOCOM assets primarily like DELTA or DEVGRU, or USMC FAST) but they tend to be designed for guerilla style asymetrical warfare instead of meeting a heavy an amphibious assault head on.
The campaign does sound like fun.
So this is what inspiration feels like. What about our allies though? and China's for that matter?
Also, don't forget that the US has lots of allies. If China invades, virtually every democratic country in the world will come to America's aid within a few days.
US says China is biggest military rival
Days is also a big span of time.. long enough for very significant footholds, and long enough for the US to tell everyone else to bugger off, it's their fight.
Even if the Chinese forces were able to make a surprise landing on the west coast, they would face some daunting problems:
1: The U.S. population is HEAVILY armed. The chinese would not only face law enforcment and elements of the national guard, they would have to face every yokle with a 30.06 scoped rifle who decided that he "ain't giving up his backyard". (There would be a lot of them too).
2: Any attempt to reinforce the invading force would be met by the U.S. Coast guard and U.S. Navy. Reinforcements launching from China will have to get past defenses launched from Pearl Harbor.
3: Invasion is an act of war. Immediate retaliation would be in order. U.S. submarines could easily launch missiles (possibly nuclear tipped) at Chinese ports. Forces stationed in South Korea could be mobilized to quickly launch strikes (again ..possibly nuclear) into China.
4) The United States still has the ability to send ICBMs to China ...goodbye Beijing.
5) Such an attack would activate the NATO pact and would require immediate action from U.S. allies.
For a campaign like this you might want to have the Chinese do a first strike nuclear attack and include some Chinese allies (real and fictional) in the mix like North Korea and Cuba.
The ChiComs won't have land based fighters or aircraft carriers to provide air cover. Hence any ChiCom ships that are at sea are sitting ducks. They'd have one wave of troops and that's all.
They have to move a regiment at best out of every ship (moderately time consuming, specifics not mentioned). They have to drive thru a civilian terminial to find command and control locations. Yes, NOB is close to NIT, but Portsmouth and Newport News are quite far away.
They'd also have to pull the ship's out of service to modify them. That's noticable since there are foreign inspectors in the shipyards. If the inspectors don't see the ship after major repairs, let alone modifications, it won't have the paperwork to enter US waters and clear US Customs prior to entering the port.
Also, loading the ships would be problematic to do in secrecy I'd think.
AT
Even if you could get a number of co-ordinated attacks going around the US, you still have major troubles re-inforceing them.
That's the biggest problem I see. Unless they sail an amphibious group via a circuitous route to put them within a couple days of the landing site. Evading the US EW would really be nigh impossible. That period of time is a stretch for a battalion sized unit to fend for themselves against an aggressive counterattack. The coordination would be a nightmare.
They have to move a regiment at best out of every ship (moderately time consuming, specifics not mentioned). They have to drive thru a civilian terminial to find command and control locations. Yes, NOB is close to NIT, but Portsmouth and Newport News are quite far away.
Landing P-town and Newport News has the added problem of the tunnels...sheeeesh. Major bottlenecks
They'd also have to pull the ship's out of service to modify them. That's noticable since there are foreign inspectors in the shipyards. If the inspectors don't see the ship after major repairs, let alone modifications, it won't have the paperwork to enter US waters and clear US Customs prior to entering the port.
Also, loading the ships would be problematic to do in secrecy I'd think.
AT
Another problem. Again, this depends alot on the force that initially intends to land. If it's a small attack force, loading by ship underway (similar to an UNREP) is not entirely impossible using heavy lift helicopters.
Another situation to think of is what is the precursor for the invasion. It could be similar to the Japanese in WW2 responding to economic pressures by a preemptive strike. There would need to be a reason to sway international opinion (and muddle NATO) long enough for a Chinese occupying force to reinforce and resupply.
This is a cool idea. In a cinematic world, anything is possible.
Invasions take a LOT of training. This is incredibly obvious on Satellite. RORSATs are also going to pick up the fleet long before it gets out of the East China Sea.
Sub hunters have the ability to use Harpoon Anti-Shipping Missiles (useful if you find a surfaced sub-SSKs).
Chinese APCs are amphibious because 1. something like a quarter of the bridges in the country date back to the Manchu Dynasty and 2. the PLA doesn't plan on building bridges.
For further remarks, let me just say it's interesting to read how well y'all can rough out an OPPLAN. Are there loads of rough spots? Hell yeah, but we've been thinking about this for what--a week? Problems to consider from the Chinese side include how to take that many merchies out of service without people noticing--a convenient "manufacturing defect" would suffice. How do you get these ships across the Pacific? Use some of the tankers to fuel them. How do you navigate out of a labrynthine commercial port? Well, locally manufactured GPS or satellite navigation would help.
More serious problems are the lack of a follow on force and the resulting disposable nature of your expeditionary force. Since this is little more than a spoiling attack, you need to consider what would be the main goal that Beijing is actually working towards. Actually, that would be the place to start--long range plans and where this fits in. And forget the nukes, biowar would be a better option, especially if you use something that isn't too traceable. A SARS outbreak in Vancouver would be somewhat accepted because the disease has already hit Toronto.
Oggie
Oh yeah-Defend the Port is something we keep practicing in the military; my brother did two exercises on that while in the Corps.
A landing force, from China, would have significant hurdles to vercome before reaching US soil. That said, it is not impossible. The Chinese have apenchant for long term planning, and the actions China is taking today (penetration of US Intelligence, upgrade of the military, agressive attempt to buy into US businesses) could actually be the roots of an operation decades in the making.
The ideas of modified cargo ships running aground and spewing combat ready forces is a bit much for me, but the idea of Chinese Special Forces infiltrating and creating diversions prior to a full scale invasion is a bit more realistic for me. Disruptions of a several major city's basic needs (water, electricity, food, etc.), blamed on a complex terrorist operation, prompts China to extend offers of aid. Merchant ships, escorted by military vessels appear in international waters near the US. With cities in turmoil, the US Government bows to pressure and accepts the offer of international aid. The merchant ships head for shore, carrying, not tons of supplies, but a military response. The military escort ships remain in international waters, waiting. Meanwhile, older model Chinese diesel/electric submarines carefully mine US Naval harbors in preparation of the Navy's "surge" deployments. With Chinese intelligence instigating civil unrest in the face of the government's inadequate response, the US is oblivious to the impending trouble. The pieces are in place, and the game begins...
Like I said, it is a cool idea...lots of possibilities.
But as for Chinas Allies. I very well believe that China could get Allies to help them out. Russia, Korea, Germany, Mexico (does Mexico even have a good military?).
There are not many Allies China could side with but they are a powerful country on their own. But on USAs side we would probably have England, France, mabey even Canada.
With the USA out of the way that could lead to many other countries gaining more Influence and Power in this grand world of ours.But on the Infiltration side. Now to weaken USA I defiently believe that China withdrawing its Productions would but a stopper in Americas production, What would happen to our economy. As Americans we heavily depend on Imports. Now beyound that Biowepons would defiently work alot better than Nukes, because (1) they want the land (2) no catamination. Also why would China Kill an entire civilization? when they could just as easily (mabey) make them people of China? Ok so the landing force may be spotted by Satellites, Well How many Chinese Satellites are in space? How many of them could house a EMP?
So does anyone else have any other Ideas?
ut as for Chinas Allies. I very well believe that China could get Allies to help them out. Russia,
Russia is an ally of the United States. The cold war is over, they're not enemies any more.
Korea,
North Korea's government isn't stupid, they won't comit national suicide.
Germany
What are you talkign about? There are no conceivable circumstances that Germany would ever consider war with the United States.
Mexico (does Mexico even have a good military?).
Mexico's economy is intricitly tied with the United STates. They have nothing to gain and everything to lose by supporting an invasion.
So does anyone else have any other Ideas?
It's best not to go into details like this if you want to run an invasion scneario. The idea of China invading the US is ludicrious. Leaving aside the naval and logistical problems, the US is a nuclear armed state. Invading it is impossible.
What if, as relation between America and China become strained, a new old-school power rises in Russia, one that still believes in the USSR and their Communist ideals? Very Ghost Recon!
What if, as the conflict explodes North Korea launch their largest offensive ever into the South, supported by excess Chinese units (HUGE army remember, I'm sure they could spare a division or two!)?
Imagine the state the Middle East would be in? Anarchy as both sides rush to claim the oil and Middle Eastern countries fighting both sides against occupation?
What if this New USSR went even more Ghost Recon, and marched east, thus drawing the USA primary allies into fighting for their own homelands?
What if Japn and Australia supported the USA, leaving them incredible isolated and dangerously close to a hostile power!
Forget about WMDs, imagine the havoc a modern defence line would do to a D-Day style beach landing!
You can even let the players progress beyond resistance fighters in America.....in the years following an invasion and occupation they could work in tandem with the remaining military and ensure the liberation of the US, then throw them into the horrors of the war engulfing Europe and the rest of the world as a special forces team.
Fletch x
Pressure is placed to turn over the government of the U.S.A. to the newly powerful U.N. over-government (with the E.U.) as the controliing members.
When the United States refuses, the E.U. tries military action to force compliance.
The U.S.A.,Canada, Mexico and a few south American states form the United Americas as a mutual defensive group like NATO.
Russia remains neutral and a trading partner. The Aussies remain U.S.aliies while Japan joins the new U.N.
The middle east is a radioactive wasteland as a result of the Middle east war of 2010.
South Africa is still a chaos of tiny states..but most are run by foreign corporate interests rather than governments.
China trades with all sides.
It would be a good game for the year 2060 or the like.
Battles could be fought all over the world.
Just a random thought....from the Twilight Zone
What if, as relation between America and China become strained, a new old-school power rises in Russia, one that still believes in the USSR and their Communist ideals? Very Ghost Recon!
This is largely a myth, even at the height of communist power in the USSR they never liked the Chinese. The two countries were more like to come to blows, over get this, politics. While both claimed to nominally communist (neither actually were, but thats a different story) they took two different views on how communism should be spread. The USSR took the Stalinist approach, while Mao modified that into his own totalitarian world view. Either way Russia and China helping each other are as likely as the US and USSR were to help each other.
But there are also so many freighters in the world that nobody is capable of watching every single one, or knowing what's on most of them. If the US knew what was on every ship, everywhere, they wouldn't need port customs to inspect and confirm incoming cargo... there are enough ships in completely private hands that the freighters themselves are actually a pretty small obstacle. They could even use plain old container ships, and modify the containers to carry troops and materiel instead of the ship itself. That would be even worse... a dozen ships could sail in and have their containers unloaded, because containers often sit around for several days before being looked at at all, and once they're all sitting around stacked in the port, then they could all open at once.
Big ports have a lot of freighters coming in and out. Vancouver's container port handles an average of 2,800 containers per day. That's a lot of ships. If you have six ships leave a port in one day, nobody's going to notice. That's normal. How do they cross the Pacific? Well, they drive. Big freighters can sail quite a bit further than the Pacific is wide without refueling. They're good that way. A cargo ship that runs out of fuel isn't too useful.
It's a long sail across the Pacific, too. Lots of time for soldiers to sit around, or to practice ship evac drills for when they land in ports, and rush out. Which isn't terribly hard, since you can look at basically any port in the world on Google, and ports are designed to make it easy for goods to flow in and out. Much of a labrynth and those 53' trailers are going to have a rough time, and your goods aren't going to move too fast.
Disposable force.. well, the Chinese haven't always been very against that in the past, have they? They land a force they basically consider a write-off, since it largely would be over several months, and then the rather ancient fleet of actual warships sets sail... and likely spends quite a bit of time at the bottom of the Pacific once they get halfway to Hawai'i, and I'd honestly be surprised if any of them even saw Pearl.
And of course, the Chinese would likely be pretty aware they're going to face counter attacks.. I'm pretty sure that the Chinese are aware of the Doolittle raid, since China is where they landed afterward. And of course China might happen to prepare for a counter attack. It wouldn't come off like a zergling rush that leaves China completely undefended. Even though a nuclear strike is honestly quite unlikely unless the Chinese very foolishly do something that would provoke it, a conventional counter attack would happen, likely very quickly from forces normally posted in the Middle East.
The landing itself would look like a much larger modern version of D-Day.. true and utter chaos, units all over the place with no real idea what's going on, and many without a really specific idea of where they are, or how to get where they were supposed to be.
Really, I've put a good... three and a half, maybe even four hours of thought into this. I've got a fair idea of the obstacles and downsides. I've never said, and wouldn't say, that it would be a very successful invasion. I'm quite certain that in the long term it would be doomed to fail. But it also is plausible.
And really.. maybe even four whole hours. That's a lot of thinking time, for me.
But as for Chinas Allies. I very well believe that China could get Allies to help them out. Russia, Korea, Germany, Mexico (does Mexico even have a good military?).
I doubt the Mexican Federales would be much import, but China could easily buy off the drug cartels that already have massed armies entrenched in US & Mexico... they invade every day with contraband, just coyote in the red army rather than illegal workers.
...Mexico (does Mexico even have a good military?).
Mexico doesn't need a military. They have MS-13...
From what I understand, MS-13 has become highly organized over the last few years. While I doubt they could function as a cohesive military unit, I think they could fill the role of terrorists quite well.
And they're already here...
Realisticly (where does that word apply to this?), I can't see Beijing even trying to do something as stupid as invasion. It's a long way away, against a country they literally can't live without (grain sales alone...), when they have targets much closer to home, especially if they keep up with that 'all that was China shall be China again' line.
I can see them launching serious operations to destabilize the US and any other country that gets in their way; using cartel troops wouldn't be a bad idea, particularly from their viewpoint. They execute drug offenders with great rapidity over there. But some throw away troops on irregular warfare isn't likely to do too much damage to the US or provoke the Government into things like nationalization, import quotas, additional excise taxes, etc.
It really is a balancing act.
Oggie
as stupid as invasion. It's a long way away, against a country they literally can't live without (grain sales alone...),
Much like the War For Oil we hear about, they would have chinese protesters chanting No Blood For Grain. The threat of the place you are conquering not selling their product to you is minimized by the fact you are conquering them. Once the US becomes another chinese province, the cost of grain from north america drops significantly for china.
The demand for grain will also be reduced significantly if even only 150milion of the 250mil expendable troops they send croak. 150mil less mouths to feed.
The whole thing will stay conventional untill 20 minutes before we lose the Norad silo fields, then we'll shoot them to avoid losing them. Then they will retaliate, and the species human will become history. Untill that time, we will try to avoid globacide by Nukes, as will they.
The whole thing will stay conventional untill 20 minutes before we lose the Norad silo fields, then we'll shoot them to avoid losing them. Then they will retaliate, and the species human will become history. Untill that time, we will try to avoid globacide by Nukes, as will they.
China only has, at most, a hundred warheads, and only the capacity to deploy, at most, half of these to the US. A nuclear exchange between China and the US would be devestating for both nations, but would not destroy the human race.
China only has, at most, a hundred warheads, and only the capacity to deploy, at most, half of these to the US. A nuclear exchange between China and the US would be devestating for both nations, but would not destroy the human race.
Of course Russia will see us launching a think they are headed their way so they'll launch. Then the U.S. would launch on Russia. Meanwhile china would think Russia weapons are heading to China so they would launch on Russia. France would be like "shoot shoot fire zee missiles!" And England would be "'bout that time. Right oh." Australia is all "WTF mate?"
Of course Russia will see us launching a think they are headed their way so they'll launch. Then the U.S. would launch on Russia. Meanwhile china would think Russia weapons are heading to China so they would launch on Russia. France would be like "shoot shoot fire zee missiles!" And England would be "'bout that time. Right oh." Australia is all "WTF mate?"
:heehee
Of course Russia will see us launching a think they are headed their way so they'll launch. Then the U.S. would launch on Russia. Meanwhile china would think Russia weapons are heading to China so they would launch on Russia. France would be like "shoot shoot fire zee missiles!" And England would be "'bout that time. Right oh." Australia is all "WTF mate?"
HAHAHAHAHA
OMFG!
And whose says China Couldnt use BIOWEAPONS?
Of course, the fighting, especially in some of the larger cities would especially costly, at least to the Chinese. There's nothing to say some Fuel Air Bombs or Thermobaric weapons wouldn't cause damage similar to an extremely small yield nuclear weapon. that gives the PCs a "wasted battlefield" to fight in.
The US has always maintained that our nuclear weapons would be used defensively, although we maintain a preemptive capability. Even if we were invaded by a rapidly advancing force, we would attempt to soundly defeat them conventionally(IMHO).
Actually U.S. doctrine is to use nuclear weapons in this case because, a tactical nuke is cheaper to maintain than a tank division. It's why we never signed the treaties banning first use of nukes.
Plus, their dependence on US commerce is as crippling a weakness as the US's dependance on foreign oil.
China has more than enough troubles in their own backyard. In the southwest they have the secessionist provinces filled with Tibetan Buddhists, to the northwest the Muslim tribes (Kazaks in particular)-both groups China has had trouble relating with whether Confucianist or Communist. The northern border with Mongolia and Russia is largely wide open, in the northeast they have over a million refugees squatting and a rogue nation/failed state with nuclear ambitions. To the east is Japan (long history) and the "rebel province" of Taiwan. And just to finish the compass, the southeast is increasingly capitalist and very much the 500 pound gorilla in the cage-and it's growing.
As I noted before, China is more likely to use Fifth Column tactics to buy time to solve some of these matters, counting on their impressive lobby and the professional apologists to patch things up afterwards. This cycle can be repeated as needed with practical impunity; read "World War IV" in the Sept 2004 issue of Commentary for an example of how well that worked for Islamist terrorists (I recommend ProQuest version-pictures are nice and sharp).
Oggie
Actually U.S. doctrine is to use nuclear weapons in this case because, a tactical nuke is cheaper to maintain than a tank division
Alright! ByeBye Berkely!
I still believe the chinese dependance on US grain can be alieviated greatly by losing 200-400mil people in a Invasion Horde-athon. If you cant feed your people, kill off a bunch so the rest wont starve.
when in doubt, WWSD- What Would Stalin Do?
Thats just funny.And the comparisons between nukes and bioweapons are entertaining.
I had approached the OPFOR deployment issue on the People of the Sun thread. The Chinese are VERY METHODICAL peoples. And extremely cunning. I'll leave the Chinese prisoner story outta this for now.
The way I had suggested deployment was:
At the stroke of midnight Dec 31, 1999, the distressed Panamanian Govt reclaimed control of the waterway. You'll remember that they're having economic problems of their own because of another US trained military leader, Gen Manual Noriega and are none too pleased with us. After the canal ceremonies, some three weeks after reclaiming, Panama leased out the canal to a foreign power.
Survey says? CHINA.
That’s right. There's an industrial firm called Hutchison-Whampoa from Hong Kong that primarily deals in the automotive industry and also has Defense contracts with the Chinese Govt. The firm thought it would be in there best interest to "lease" (for fifty years) the canal and honor any other waterway right that other countries might have like the US for example.
China deciding that now is a good time to take advantage of the situation paid a visit to the elderly Mr. Augusto Pinochet and made an "offer he couldn't refuse". Reinstatement of military commission and rank of Commander in Chief of the newly re-established Empire of Brazil. Also constructed are multiple manufacturing factories supplying all of the daily commodities and refitting of the military complex with modern equipment and current updates. Thank you, come again.
The locals went outta their minds. They saw: A charismatic ruler with lots of machismo that’s a local boy, united country with a steady stable economy, military strong enough to destroy the drug lords, asian culture within walking distance, more photographers than you could shake a lama at, tons of other amenities, and most importantly the ability to turn their backs on the US. Machismo is a latin concept that translates into a father's love and popularity.
The Chinese saw a Military leader that was willing to do the dirty work, countries that would rally to his cause, and most importantly had a foreseeable expiration date.
So, one day the inevitable happened.
The canal was under Chinese martial law and a series of convincing speeches aimed at the steadily immoral US made there way around. Numerous actions began with a thoroughly motivated populace. At first these actions were to seal the borders against any US involvement and then the American posturing became too much.
After much deliberation and bolstering, the Chinese were able to convince the peoples of South and Central America that their time had come. Those conquerors that had come across the sea to **** and pillage the lands were FINALLY going to get their due. It had taken a thousand years, but this was finally going to happen.
Invasion From Within. That way everything looks legit and infiltration is ALOT easier.
Actually U.S. doctrine is to use nuclear weapons in this case because, a tactical nuke is cheaper to maintain than a tank division. It's why we never signed the treaties banning first use of nukes.
I was thinking strategically. Launching a few ICMBs at China because they landed a force in California wouldn't be an appropriate response. I could see the (limited) use of battlefield/tactical nuclear weapons within theater (US soil), but there'd be a lot of discussion about nuking our own citizens along with the Chinese, especially if you have a large refugee population streaming out if occupied cities.
All complaints will be dealt with... severely!
Vapors Can't Vote against you next November.
Funny.
Ok, it doesn't really illustrate it but I felt like sharing this. And those pesky voters should have had the damn sense to Get Out of a City Being Invaded! Less problems.
Basically a much more violent version of the Battle for the Aleutian Isles from WW2 (I think?). And the whole "Save the Alaskan Wildlife Refuge" arguments are nonexistent. Battalions of Chinese are enjoying roasted caribou, moose, and are warming up the recoilless rifles for the polar bears (bears are related to pigs, ya know) meanwhile thousands of miles of pipeline from the oil reserves are being rerouted back to China. Blood and Bones, sir.
Fortunately, the area is not all lost. While previously the "Lower 48" grinned at the mysteries and peoples of Seward's Icebox, the Eskimo peoples have always been patriotic. And at this time, it is a Godsend. Many of the local veterans still living had participated in the Vietnam War and remember hard lessons taught to them by the VC.
These lessons in no particular order were: Guerilla warfare, "patriated" scouts over on the "Chieu Hoi" program that would disappear later, the fact that the locals could blend into the invading populace (strange what land bridges thousands of years ago do at a time like now), and the multitude of noncombat injuries that occur in the upper cold wet regions. All of these facts work in favor of the Northern Lights guerilla movement.
Unfortunately the cold climes were not an issue. Both China and North Korea are cold weather armies and this was factored in when the DEW stations were seized in a timely fashion. This taskforce consisted of Chinese leadership and North Korean muscle.
The Canadians and Japanese were guaranteed neutrality providing they would help nor hinder either side. Japan complied (living in China's front yard) but there are some Canadian citizens that are rumored to be involved with the Northern Lights movement.
G'DAY NANOOK!!!!
Shortly after these events began, the Australian and New Zealand ambassadors sheepishly announced that some 90% of their navies went AWOL and had stolen their assigned ships. Later the Red Force navies began sustaining substantial losses. Now, no ships leave the Panama Canal and Bering Sea ships are under significant protection but that doesn't always help. The Chinese navy claims to have had some successes in its patrolling efforts but that's still unconfirmed. Meanwhile, the various peoples of the north are starting to develop a "Down Under" accent.
???
Enjoy,
Doug
I was thinking strategically. Launching a few ICMBs at China because they landed a force in California wouldn't be an appropriate response. I could see the (limited) use of battlefield/tactical nuclear weapons within theater (US soil), but there'd be a lot of discussion about nuking our own citizens along with the Chinese, especially if you have a large refugee population streaming out if occupied cities.
Actually, U.S. policy in the 20th century (and 21st) is one of brinksmanship. Take the Cuban Missile crisis for example. If the Soviets had not backed down, President Kennedy would have launched the dreaded attack.
An actuall invasion is enough for the U.S.A. to punch the big red button.
Besides, how hard will the invaders fight if there is no home left for them to write to?
Neutron warheads would probably be used on U.S. soil if needed. It kills people but leaves buildings and vehicles intact. Low amounts of fallout and not as much residual radiation. A bright flash, then the enemy soldiers do an imitation of a sausage left too long in the microwave oven
Any mass of ships approaching would be treated to a nuclear tipped torpedo from a U.S. submarine.
Besides, how hard will the invaders fight if there is no home left for them to write to?
But they do have the possibility of a new, better, less crowded home if they did fight hard. :D
Neutron warheads would probably be used on U.S. soil if needed. It kills people but leaves buildings and vehicles intact. Low amounts of fallout and not as much residual radiation. A bright flash, then the enemy soldiers do an imitation of a sausage left too long in the microwave oven
I don't think neutron bombs actually exist.
I don't think neutron bombs actually exist.
They do exist, but their primary intended use was for targeting the crews of armored vehicles. Also, they don't leave buildings standing. They have a very short lethal range (700 meters), and the blast in the detonation of the bomb will almost assuredly destroy any civilian buildings within this radius.
It seems to me that many Oriental cultures (particularly China), have very little respect for human life.
How do you figure? I don't think you want to go about steretypoing in such a way without support.
emergency broadcast system this is not a test, will very likely tell people who are in their homes to stay there, and people not in their homes to find somewhere indoors to get to, and to try and stay away from any fighting that is taking place.
effectivly losing the Last Defence of the US- the Armed Populus. I could just imagine the California leadership saying to stay indoors away from the fighting, and the chinese invaders asking the same thing to make it easier to invade.
"Seek shelter, do not fight, do not defend, stay home you imperialists"
Besides, how hard will the invaders fight if there is no home left for them to write to?
Wasn't the US settled by guys that Burned Their Boats to promote survival motivation? Does china have ICBMs? Will they just choose to get nuked without retaliation, or will Assured Mutual Destruction once again promote a conventional war by the US?
"Seek shelter, do not fight, do not defend, stay home you imperialists"
Chinese PSYOP program. That's cute, I like that. :D
Actually, U.S. policy in the 20th century (and 21st) is one of brinksmanship. Take the Cuban Missile crisis for example. If the Soviets had not backed down, President Kennedy would have launched the dreaded attack.
Kennedy was prepared to attack Cuba, not annihilate it. Part of the basis of Russia backing down (in addition to the a highly effective Naval blockade) was the assurance that the US would not invade Cuba. That, plus the belief that Kennedy's hand was hovering over the red button to attack Russia helped the Soviets reconsider. Brinksmanship is not preemption, and the world feared MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction).
An actuall invasion is enough for the U.S.A. to punch the big red button.
Besides, how hard will the invaders fight if there is no home left for them to write to?
Again, that's debateable. Depending on the size of the invading force. If there was a real belief that US forces could not engage and defeat the Chinese, then yes. Remember, the nuclear option is not one to be taken lightly. In the 61 years of nuclear existence no one has been willing to do it despite many close calls. IMHO, I just don't see it happening, unless the Chinese were rapidly advancing across the US from West to East.
Nah, more likely There would be a massive battle for the West, with the frontlines established in major population centers in California, Oregon, and Washington. US Forces from the East, to begin reinforcing those already in theater, while the Chinese would try desperately to get supplies to their forces (across the Pacific, subject to US and allied Naval power).
Neutron warheads would probably be used on U.S. soil if needed. It kills people but leaves buildings and vehicles intact. Low amounts of fallout and not as much residual radiation. A bright flash, then the enemy soldiers do an imitation of a sausage left too long in the microwave oven
Possibly, but still there is the greater chance of cooking off hundreds of thousands of civilians (refugees). How many Senators and Congressmen would be willing to standby or agree to the killing off of their constituency. I think that would cause more public uproar than anything.Any mass of ships approaching would be treated to a nuclear tipped torpedo from a U.S. submarine.
If the Navy were severly deteriorated (as in my earlier scenario with major harbors mined to prevent surge deployments) then yeah, a nuke torpedo would be a viable option. Otherwise, if the Navy can deploy, we have more than enough air/sea power to deal with the Chinese Navy. After all, it is the world's finest Navy.
How do you figure? I don't think you want to go about steretypoing in such a way without support.
Ever hear of Tiananmen Square?
Or Pol Pot?
Or Genghis Khan?
Or Kim Jong Il?
Or Imperial Japan in World War II?
Or...well, you get the picture.
Ever hear of Tiananmen Square?
Or Pol Pot?
Or Genghis Khan?
Or Kim Jong Il?
Or Imperial Japan in World War II?
Or...well, you get the picture.
No, I'm sorry; I do not get the picture. You have named despotic leaders, not their people. Eastern cultures don't revere life any less, they just emphasize in a different way, in favoring the whole over the group (and this does NOT mean they'd give their lives for their country without thinking of themselves).
If you merely take a laundry list of evil leaders and misdeeds, you can find one just as long--or longer--for the West.
You have decided to judge a entire cultures (not just one, even) based on despotic leaders, wartime behavior, and what seems like a complete misconception of human behavior. What makes them different from the West? The West has had despotic/destructive leaders as well. However, your experience with Westerners, I'm sure, has shown you that the people within it are not defined solely by their leader. What makes "Orientals," as you say, any different?
You seem to paint them as one-dimensional; it's just as easy to say that about any country. Wow, the US killed 120,000 people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, about 95% of them were civilians. Now if you judged Americans based on this you could say "Wow, they have no rspect for human life." Do you do this? No, as you know this is the case.
I am not angry with you, however I do believe that a lack of contact on your part with east Asian culture could be a factor in this.
Kennedy was prepared to attack Cuba, not annihilate it. Part of the basis of Russia backing down (in addition to the a highly effective Naval blockade) was the assurance that the US would not invade Cuba. That, plus the belief that Kennedy's hand was hovering over the red button to attack Russia helped the Soviets reconsider. Brinksmanship is not preemption, and the world feared MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction)..
Kennedy was quoted as saying: "We will sink that island."
Everyone knew that the conflict, when it started would escalte with the Russians very fast. Most of the military was of the opinion that if you did not fire first, you would loose your ability to fight back.
If war started, it would have been a situation of:
War is inevitable, so lets take them out before they get us.
Again, that's debateable. Depending on the size of the invading force. If there was a real belief that US forces could not engage and defeat the Chinese, then yes. Remember, the nuclear option is not one to be taken lightly. In the 61 years of nuclear existence no one has been willing to do it despite many close calls. IMHO, I just don't see it happening, unless the Chinese were rapidly advancing across the US from West to East. )..
In 61 years, no foriegn invader has occupied U.S. soil.
I don't see nukes as the first option, but the momemt the enemy threatened something the military considered a major asset, (like a facility with American nukes stored at it), then the gloves would be off.
Nah, more likely There would be a massive battle for the West, with the frontlines established in major population centers in California, Oregon, and Washington. US Forces from the East, to begin reinforcing those already in theater, while the Chinese would try desperately to get supplies to their forces (across the Pacific, subject to US and allied Naval power).
The U.S. would own the airspace in the area, and would prevent any ground force from moving very far. Especially if they broke from the cover of cities and tried to move across the mid west.
Possibly, but still there is the greater chance of cooking off hundreds of thousands of civilians (refugees). How many Senators and Congressmen would be willing to standby or agree to the killing off of their constituency. I think that would cause more public uproar than anything.)
True, but that type of war would not wait for senators to debate the political ramifications. It would be up to the generals to decide on the battlefield. Generals seek victory and like to EVERY tool in the toolbox to be available...even the big stick.
Once again, if a major asset were threatened, The U.S. red book of war has plans where some civillian casualties are considered "Acceptable losses".
It is probable that simulations of the very same scenerio have already been run by the U.S. brass to determine where and how to fight it.
The only role the senators and congressmen would play during the conflict is spin control to keep the population from panicking or to justify any action taken. The need for a united face against the enemy would outweigh the need to debate the right or wrong of the situation.
If the Navy were severly deteriorated (as in my earlier scenario with major harbors mined to prevent surge deployments) then yeah, a nuke torpedo would be a viable option. Otherwise, if the Navy can deploy, we have more than enough air/sea power to deal with the Chinese Navy. After all, it is the world's finest Navy.
True.
True, but that type of war would not wait for senators to debate the political ramifications. It would be up to the generals to decide on the battlefield. Generals seek victory and like to EVERY tool in the toolbox to be available...even the big stick.
I must point out here that nuclear weapons are not tools ever able to be used by the generals. The president and other senior members of the US government are the only people in the United States with the ability to order a nuclear strike.
snip....
In 61 years, no foriegn invader has occupied U.S. soil.
And in the conjecture of this scenario, that is the deciding factor. Like we have both surmised, conventionally, US airpower/seapower and eventually massed landpower would negate the need/use of nuclear weapons. If the Chinese appeared to move fast enough to capture our strategic assets, I could see the use of tactical/battlefied nukes. Again, I don't see a couple of Chinese divisions justifying the strategic launch of ICBMs at mainland China. Of course, that is my opinion, and this is just a game. ;)
True, but that type of war would not wait for senators to debate the political ramifications. It would be up to the generals to decide on the battlefield. Generals seek victory and like to EVERY tool in the toolbox to be available...even the big stick.
Once again, if a major asset were threatened, The U.S. red book of war has plans where some civillian casualties are considered "Acceptable losses".
It is probable that simulations of the very same scenerio have already been run by the U.S. brass to determine where and how to fight it.
The only role the senators and congressmen would play during the conflict is spin control to keep the population from panicking or to justify any action taken. The need for a united face against the enemy would outweigh the need to debate the right or wrong of the situation.
Many Senators and Congressman play important roles during conflicts, and no general makes a decision of that magnitude without some political consideration. More importantly than that would be the loss of the American public's support once they find out the Government decided to drop nukes on their fellow countrymen. Civil disobedience, rioting, and such would quicky erode Washington's resolve to risk so called "acceptable losses".
Generals and admirals do indeed have the ability to confirm a Presidential launch order on strategic nukes during an overt military crisis. Tactical nukes, I don't know; the policy changes pretty much every election/nomination/confirmation/opinion poll. If there isn't an overt crisis? Then the launch order is given by the President and confirmed by a senior government official who has been confirmed by the Senate--IOW, someone the President put into office (or maybe a SC Justice). Scary, isn't it?
Kennedy was playing with a pat hand during Cuba. He knew what we had, he knew what the Soviets had (missile gap indeed) and he knew the Soviets couldn't launch in less than eight hours due to myriad technical issues. Not much brinksmanship there. He did manage to cost the British the best agent EVER to work in the USSR, Oleg Penkovskiy. Reputedly, the KGB murdered his whole family and sent the extended family to Siberia.
In re the Pinochet plot mentioned a ways back. Proxy Wars! I love it. That's the way empires fight.
Oggie
PS-look at a three dimensional map of the US. Notice those big mountains just inside the Pacific coast? The ones with only three ways through? That's the defense barrier that'll kill an invasion. Best option would be to forget CA and try Oregon, the Columbia valley maybe.
Our subs and ships would pick any ChiCom subs long before they ever were within range of our ports.
Unless there was something else tying up our Pacific fleet resources. Like an upset N. Korea for example. ;)
PS-look at a three dimensional map of the US. Notice those big mountains just inside the Pacific coast? The ones with only three ways through? That's the defense barrier that'll kill an invasion
HA!!!!
I would love to see a 50mil ChiCom Horde stuck on the 91Freeway or 57Freeway in friday afternoon traffic
"There's a SIG alert on the 22 just past the Orange Crush, and a Horde tieing up the diamond lane on the westbound 57 at the 90, stay tuned for sports after these mesages"
In regards to the ChiCom subs mining our ports: one of the least likely scenarios ever. Chinese diesel subs (the vast majority of their sub fleet) are so loud that even really good civilian sonar can pick them up, let alone the great sonar equipment employed by the US Navy and Coast Guard.
Our subs and ships would pick any ChiCom subs long before they ever were within range of our ports.
Unless there was something else tying up our Pacific fleet resources. Like an upset N. Korea for example. ;)
Well that is true of China's older submarine force (Type 035, and 039) but the Chinese have recently updated their subforce with Russian Kilo class submarines (one of Russia's better diesels), and a new proprietary designed sub. Add in the fact they are known to have recieved classified information about US submarine propulsion, how to properly machine the screws to reduce acoustic signature, and added acoustic reducing materials to their subs, and suddenly the scenario gets more credence. In port, US vessels are not running active/passive systems the way they do at sea. Hell, don't like the diesel/electric idea (most d/e subs are quieter when running electric power while submerged) have China suddenly put to sea one of their type 93 SSNs or type 94 SSBNs. Both designs have not passed sea trials yet, but hey, this is an invasion right.
We're not talking about the probability of this scenario, but the possibility. I'm just throwing out ideas.
(Hey, WTF, this isn't even my game! I'm done ;) )
I mention this to put the Unending D-DAY type scenarios into perspective. Diesel Submarines, Warplanes, and Port Invasions? Sounds like you missed sending out invitations and banging a drum. No wonder this stuff doesn't sound feasible. ;) We need to think about this like a crime. Means, Method, and Motivation.
Oggie, I'm glad you liked the Pinochet stuff. You should look at the People of the Sun thread.
THE MEANS
The Chinese are going to make proper use of THEIR Special Operations and take advantage of US domestic situations. Just like the Americans. Study its habits.
A big annoyance here in the States is the Border situation and the amount of Immigrants and Drugs that come through on both fronts. Both Mexico and Canada. Think about that for a while. Think about ALL of the tunnels you've heard about in the news. Also about the amount of falsified passports being made. The back roads "Hunting trails" into northern provinces of Canada only accessible by offroad vehicles.
I grew up in Arizona and hearing about Illegal Aliens dying in masses in the desert was common. Having to work alongside of Illegals was irritating but they were trying to scratch out a living same as you so you tolerated it. Complacency because the situation seems to have no end in sight is a daily concept.
Gotta love Special Ops. Even when its this easy.
Method and Motivation I illustrated on the People of the Sun thread.
Enjoy,
Doug
I see Chinese Special Operations Forces (and intelligence forces) getting in to the US to instigate unrest, and cause distractions (attacking infastructure) to cover another military operation. This is similar to what our Special Operations Forces do. Chinese SOF acting as a force multiplier to Mexican drug dealers or other "grassroot" organizations to destabilize the US would be an extremely long term objective. Even though the US has sullied it's relationships in Central and South America, any revolutionary movement against the US is still a ways off. Too many see it as the cash cow it is (someone already mentioned the amount of money that flows out of the US to Mexico). Of course with Venezuela, and Bolivia starting to lean towards the left, the US does have some legitimate worries down the road (a bit). It's not like what our forces did in Afghanistan where there was already a resistance movement, that just needed to be unified and organized.
Of course, this trips on feisability as much as a D-Day scenario.
(OK, now I'm done ;) )
DEPENDENT ON HOW SERIOUS A GAME YOU WANT
The building up of the South and Central Amer. locals is consistent with Insurgency Planning. There are seven steps that I'll post later. But all of this Guerilla Movement stuff doesnt have to be obvious (on the news) to the players. It can be in the background or the players can be part of a "Recon" or LRRP team in that part of the world and sent to investigate. This to me looks like the option with the most likelyhood of happening.
If anyone here has the d20 Colombia book, this should be able to shed some more light on this concept.
"You shoulda seen it, I was down in Nogales partying with my bro's when this armored column or whatever shows up and a bunch japs or something get out. I was like 'Happy Cinco de Mayo dudes' and they ignored us. So Tommy got real hostile and says 'My bro over there just said Happy Cinco de Mayo and you guys are just gonna ignore him. Whats that about?' We had Manny with us and he didn't think it felt right so he asks 'Como Estas, Vato?' and at that moment the guy on the Tank guns 'em both down. We all flip out and start ducking and running and then the cops showed up. I gotta tell you, I've NEVER been so happy to see a Federale in my life."
Files from border station N-14 on the night of 05may2006.
1. Initial Contact / Infiltration of Team. In this case it would be our Chinese
"advisors" and "planners".
2. Organization / Build Up. This is when the Chinese cadre would start training and equiping the local forces.
3. Confidence Combat Operations aka Guerilla Operations. Alot of Hearts and Minds stuff here, integrating with the community against a common "oppressor" in sabotage or "terror" activities.
4. Coordinated Combat Operations. This when all of the smaller "cells" band together against multiple fronts and resembles a "gaggle" of a fighting force.
5. Link Up. The Chinese forces were busy working the background scenes and was able to coordinate a "legitimate" unifying of forces with the Guerillas.
6. Demobilization. After fighting a successfull battle, the newly appointed leaders and supporters of the Revolution have determined that a constant armed and combat ready populace would be a "danger" to the stability of the "Movement".
7. Install a New Government. The leaders of the Revolution at this point can now start holding elections and will generally appoint a body that will work in conjunction with the initial "advisors". In this case its the Chinese. Also the leaders of the previous infrastructure will be imprisoned as war criminals and await a trial of sorts.
AND NONE DARE CALL IT TREASON. WELCOME TO THE NEW GOVERNMENT!!
"I gotta tell you, I've NEVER been so happy to see a Federale in my life."
Both of the Border Agents raised their eyebrows, "You were happy to see the Federales? I find that hard to believe. For starters, you three boozehounds show up jabbering on about Asian Invaders of the Third Kind or something. You and your buddies only show EXPIRED Arizona drivers licenses or University of Arizona campus ID's, have bloodshot eyes, and- is that marijuana I smell? Little Man, you're lucky that the Federales didn't put you in a cell to be someones girl tonight. Everyone empty your pockets, NOW!"
An hour later, the Border Entry station was quiet except for Agents Dean and Ramirez laughing about the recent commotion. They were taking an inventory of the latest acquired loot. The $450 cash was nice and and the few ounces of weed was of a fairly good quality. Not the best, but then again good for being free. There was also the assorted pocket trash like: change, gum, condoms, reciepts, phone numbers, rolling papers, and lint. Collecting "evidence" was profitable at times.
"That sure was a loco story, Holmes. Sounds like they been at it all day or got some 'Bad Candy' or something", mused Ramirez while sorting out the rolling papers and eyeballing the couple ziploc baggies.
"Still, Effraim, the thing that bugs me is What happened to the Federale? Why didn't he arrest these losers? Shouldn't he have started an investigation on the two others and detained these three as witnesses? I mean, How many people actually GO to a law enforcement agent with drugs ON them? It doesn't make sense."
Ramirez had heard enough. " OK Holmes, look. How much paperwork do YOU, not me, want to do today?", he asked through an irritated grimace. "Cuz I gotta tell you, today's a holiday and I'm doin' nada." Agent Dean grunted an acknowledgement but it was obvious he was still thinking about the Federales and the college kids.
Ramirez continued, "Realistically what might have happened is that these vatos prolly ran into some trouble when they were buying the drogas. The dealer gets mad and gets the drop on the first two vatos and these other three work him over. NOT our problem. Or, theres some trouble and the Federale DOES try to arrest these blancos. They work HIM over and the other two vatos don't exist. Thats HIS jurisdiction and NOT our problem, man. Now are you gonna hand me your lighter or what?"
Agent Dean thought about this for a bit while his partner got blurry eyed. The rumbling, fireworks, and commotion on the Sonoran side of the border didn't sound out of place. The beginings of peace of mind was the last thing that he thought of as the Border Entry station erupted into a fireball of High Explosives and body parts.
Shortly thereafter, a Chinese MBT with APC support rolled through the wreckage. Various commands were announced over a loudspeaker in spanish telling the populace of the Combined Liberation Force's intentions in the area. Also that the locals should wait for two weeks before going north into the US to claims parcels of land.
Have a good weekend fellas, I gotta go and play soldier for a couple days.
HA!!!!
I would love to see a 50mil ChiCom Horde stuck on the 91Freeway or 57Freeway in friday afternoon traffic
"There's a SIG alert on the 22 just past the Orange Crush, and a Horde tieing up the diamond lane on the westbound 57 at the 90, stay tuned for sports after these mesages"
Traffic? :o
How far of a zoom are people out looking at these three routes... there's more than twenty that I can count, not including any in Canada, with I-8, I-10, I-40 and I-15 in SoCal alone, seven small crossings in the space between I-15 and the I-80 that runs out of Sacramento.. I don't see the LA Basin rush hour being the major hurdle in a land invasion of the US.
what Traffic can stop an RPG?
^^ I AGREE ^^
what Traffic can stop an RPG?
Quantity has it's own quality, and there are a lot of cars. While no individual car can stop a tank, a mile of them will bog it down.
Also, SoCal has one serious deterrant to travel in an un-airconditioned APC or MBT. It's called the Mojave.
Let's just face it, the West Coast would be very hard to attack out of. That's why I love the proxy army from the south idea. Hugely open border (By any definition), a land bridge which can't be sunk or shot down and the defense in depth goes both ways, allowing you to avoid Beijing's most striking military weakness, the PLAN.
Add in deniability and the preservation of the California infrastructure (So you have trade no matter what) and this looks a lot like a win-win situation.
Oggie
Doug
I've driven across it, twice, in a car that is prone to overheating in Pacific Northwest summers (which means at most, a hair over 100 degrees), without overheating.. (which is primarily because I can read, and turned my AC off, because it's a serious hamper to standard automotive cooling) and since I know that combat vehicles from the rest of the world are capable of operating in the Middle East without overheating, I'd have to assume that China isn't going to make vehicles that can't take a bit of hot sand.
As for attacking out of California, I don't think that getting out of the LA Basin or crossing the Mojave would present any real difficulties for them, but the Sierra Nevada and the Rockies might. Imagine the Army Corps of Engineers deciding to simply sap the mountain roads while retreating East? That could slow down the invasion for quite a while.
As for Special Ops, has anyone considered computers? If a group of Chinese Army hackers broke into US government networks, how much damage could they cause? Break into city networks, suddenly electricity is rerouted to nowhere and the water mains dry up. Break into airports (military or civilian) suddenly no one knows where the planes are. Break into military facilities, suddenly the enemy knows exactly where all your units are. Tactics like that would be great just as the invasion is starting, confusing the defenders to the maximum possible.
-MVK
Even before a single PLA trooper steps on U.S. soil, the war would have begun, but as something unnoticeable unless one both knew what to look for and where to look. An economic war begins. Bombings by an unknown group. Strategic assassinations.
When the shooting starts, it won’t be by the Chinese. Proxy wars are an old tool, they'll use everything they can get their hands on: East Coast gangs would riot in NYC and DC armed with better-than usual arms and armor, MS-13 surges cross-country, any and all embedded terrorists begin to move more or less at once (you've gotta see that at least some of those folks are in the Chinese' back pocket), all agents embedded begin to take control of computer and power networks on both coasts.
All the while some Senators and Representatives are claiming that nothing is happening (wouldn't surprise me if they'd be having their incomes modified with out-of-country funds). Congressmen are pliable (as they are people), thus are commonly bought off by any dozen organizations.
Once the fecal matter hits the bladed rotating ceiling appliance and the actual invasion began, the U.S. military would be spread very thin (here and one must remember abroad as well). A mined harbor does very little good. You think that the Chinese (who literally wrote the book on war [Sun Tzu]) would do anything without preparing beforehand? Some form of aircraft carriers would be used (bombed airbases). Effectively it would boil down to small-team guerilla-style fighting on part of the U.S. (the PCs)
I wodner if DHS has check in on this thread
President Osama!
(They are now)
One of the things that could hinder an invasion force crossing of the mountain ranges is how long it takes for that force to reach and secure a sizable crossing.
If the major forces get tied up getting through to the So Cal interstates, and they have to rely on a smaller route in No Cal or Oregon, or all the way up to Washington, it would take very little time even for a haphazard effort by an Engineer corps to lay long strips of charges along the state highways and simply leave them, if the invasion force decides to divert away from fighting to travel directly to a crossing that isn't being heavily contested, only to have a half mile of ground at the front of their advance turn into giant holes in the ground, forcing a split or even a complete rerouting to yet another low point that can be crossed... when it comes to the landing, it really comes to speed that they can move inland, which is why one my early ideas involved a somewhat less militaristic takeover of Canada, which gives them full access to the breadth of the US, and puts them within hours of nearly every major city.
(They are now)"
Looks like somebody knows about FLAGS.
"East Coast gangs would riot in NYC and DC armed with better-than usual arms and armor, MS-13 surges cross-country, any and all embedded terrorists begin to move more or less at once (you've gotta see that at least some of those folks are in the Chinese' back pocket), all agents embedded begin to take control of computer and power networks on both coasts."
Reference to the asian gangs called the Tongs, here? About as big as the Bloods and Crips. Good call.
"All the while some Senators and Representatives are claiming that nothing is happening (wouldn't surprise me if they'd be having their incomes modified with out-of-country funds). Congressmen are pliable (as they are people), thus are commonly bought off by any dozen organizations."
And a Slick Willie reference.
As sure as my cat's named CHE, the Intrigue beast is out now!
Although that'd make an interesting campaign... the Chinese invade using plans derived from an American gaming message board.
I'm just hoping no one's getting any ideas reading this thread.
Although that'd make an interesting campaign... the Chinese invade using plans derived from an American gaming message board.
That would be a sad sad sad thing
but if they then we better get some sort of credit 
:evillaugh 
Of course, if a Chinese owned mining company just happened to build a couple "service roads"...
Oggie
President Osama!
(They are now)
@Razoreface:
How exactly would the Chinese go about a nonmilitaristic takeover of Canada? I could see them dominating Canada on the economic side, but how would that translate into Chinese tank columns rolling into Minnesota? I'm not degrading the idea or anything, but I would like to hear your thoughts on this, since an assault from Canada would mean a much quicker advance that could mean the difference between victory and the invasion plan stalling.
-MVK
I'm just hoping no one's getting any ideas reading this thread.
I don't know about you, but I'm starting to think I could pull off a successful invasion of Canada.
How exactly would the Chinese go about a nonmilitaristic takeover of Canada?
The only problem with hitting Canada, Razoreface, is the same I've already pointed out. In your case, the Canadian Rockies. Pretty country, but a military nightmare.
The key to this is honestly being Canadian. Nobody else could really quite get it... to invade Canada, you have to do this. Tell everyone that you're going to invade, and then invade, because after you've told everyone, everyone is going to leave.. because it's not their job to stop you. It's in their contract.
Anyone in WA will likely remember several days ago, several armed murder suspects from California were trying to make the Canadian border. They made it in sight, the US border agents shot them within feet of it. And where were the Canadian agents? Hiding. Several days after that, a rumor of another armed criminal heading toward a small crossing meant the border agents simply didn't even show up to work.
Forget about an invading army.. when criminals come, the Canadian defense hides. Canada is too "peaceful" to actually fight for anything. The Rockies are a rather large military obstacle, but not if you're able to just drive across them.
Canada's "military might" consists of an army of roughly 70,000 troops (the best of which are all over in Afghanistan anyway), which includes the army reserve and it's civilian staff, an air force which fields 60 year old helicopters that like to stop working while flying, and lacks enough transport capacity to fly people from Alberta to Ontario.. thirteen air wings, mostly SAR helicopters. And a Pacific "fleet" that is less than 15 ships, two of which don't have guns. One is actually a sailboat. (The full fleet is 12 coastal defense vessels, 12 frigates, 4 destroyers, and 4 diesel submarines)... so even if in the unlikely event that Canada did try to defend itself, it simply isn't capable of doing that. A landing limited to just Vancouver is only going to face about 5,000 troops, at the absolute most, except most of them are about six hours drive from here. In the city, there's probably less than a thousand troops, and almost all of them are reservists.
The Report to the U.S. Congress (2003) on the Peoples Republic of China:
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/dod-2003.pdf
god save the queen - hurrah
god save the queen - hurrah
*********************************************************************
Tradition dies hard. When that tradition includes a dose of nationalism, it may be all but impossible for it to be killed. For the people of Manchuria, that tradition was freedom and running their own country. Whether a province of Mongol horseman, the founders of the Manchu dynasty or the Japanese satellite state of Manchuko, they had not answered to anyone in Beijing. And they were not going to any longer.
Needless to say, the Chinese figured out what was in the works long before most of the would be rebels did. What's the point of having a secret police if you don't? Their problem was that if they dealt with the problem as it deserved, the rest of the world, particularly the demon America, would raise loud objections. Perhaps even an embargo. Something had to be found to distract them--fast.
It started with a carefully crafted insult. At a regional conference on the 'drug problem', the honorable delegate from the People's Republic of China remarked that if the Govenment of the United States had ever had any interest in winning its 'war on drugs', they would have actually done something that worked. Lobbying groups in America, subtly primed with yuan, immediately began calling for a new offensive in the war, new legislation, new anything to make it look like progress was being made. With the connivance of a few legislators (themselves gently guided by Chinese agents), legislation was passed that loosened the reins on the DEA, FBI and other related agencies. It also put a floating minimum on their seizures; they only got to keep any amounts over a set floor. With millions in soft cash at stake, the police jumped and landed hard.
Chinese advisors to various regimes in Central and South America chose to interpret this as a challenge to the manhood and masculinity of their interlocutors. Many cooler heads didn't take the bait. Others, awash in machismo, chose to strike back.
It started with an MS-13 raid on the Dallas District Court. As the violence levels rose, so did the attention of the American media outlets. And where they fixed their eye, the world perforce watched as well. In response to the violence and the escalating incensement of the world, the Americans became increasingly overt in their actions. At first it was 'assisted' cross border raids, then covert unilateral ops, then they simply ripped the gloves off and started tearing the flesh from their enemies. Drug cartel leadership in Colombia disappeared in a hail of sniper rounds and Hellfire missiles. Fields in Peru and Bolivia where the crops were grown were seized and burned; more than a few of the farmers were destroyed along with their cash crop.
The attention of an increasingly blood-mad government turned to the drug dealers inside the country. Labeled 'domestic terrorists allied with narcoterrorist elements hostile to our way of life', they were targeted for raids notable for excessive force and thorough results. Being neither fanatical ideologues nor committed combatants (just greedy), the gangs did the simple thing and just disappeared into the woodwork of American life. Working at a Big Burger wasn't as flashy, but it beat a 9mm in the guts anyday. The last stroke came with a change in policy in the prisons. Unheralded at the time, the simple act of throwing anyone caught dealing drugs in the slam into solitary for a month broke the last distribution systems.
Some countries later claimed the Americans had over reacted; not those who were facing their own rising social costs from the drug problem though. Muslim countries issued cautious approbations on America's "Self-Cleansing of the Poison of Drugs". China was silent.
In Manchuria, the invading PLA had liquidated 50 000 people, sent another 200 thousand to re-education camps and had forcibly deported a million North Korean refugees back across the Yalu River. All with out so much as a squeak from the rest of the world.
Oggie
How about one order of fact file on Chinese military capabilities?
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/index.html
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ch.html
http://www.china-defense.com/
http://www.chinatoday.com/arm/
http://www.comw.org/cmp/fulltext/iddschina.html
"Thanks, mang. Come again."
(and this ties into Razoreface's last post)
There are only two possible kinds of invasions on Canada: American, and non-American.
Non-American invasions would have to deal with the American Military, because there's no way Washington wants its entire Northern front compromised.
An American Invasion will not happen, provided Canada remains neutral to geopolitics and open to the American market. I mean, why buy the cow when you get the milk for free? :P
There was a series of books written by Turtledove called the Great War that I felt had an accurate dipiction of what an occupied Canada might be like. I don't remember exactly which book but the timeline was late 1800's or early 1900's with Brittian being the occupying force and all the joy that it implies. Samuel Clemens aka Mark Twain was a War Correspondent in San Fran when the Brits sacked and burned the San Fran Mint. Frederick Douglas and a few others ended up being a POW captured by Brittish Forces on the Great Lakes. Abe Lincoln never was shot and blamed for losing the Civil War and was renamed the Black Republican and later turned Communist.
There's a slew of things that happen BEFORE any DA or Direct Action takes place. If anyone here can remember or get the old TV series called Amerika,(successful Soviet Invasion of the US) this would be a good source of reference. All I remember is that Kris Kristoferson and Robert Ulrich were in the series.
Doug
There was a series of books written by Turtledove called the Great War that I felt had an accurate dipiction of what an occupied Canada might be like. I don't remember exactly which book but the timeline was late 1800's or early 1900's with Brittian being the occupying force and all the joy that it implies. Samuel Clemens aka Mark Twain was a War Correspondent in San Fran when the Brits sacked and burned the San Fran Mint. Frederick Douglas and a few others ended up being a POW captured by Brittish Forces on the Great Lakes. Abe Lincoln never was shot and blamed for losing the Civil War and was renamed the Black Republican and later turned Communist.
Doug
the whole series starts with How Few Remain and is currently in world war two status.
Just trying to offer a literary precedent of an Occupied Canada is all. Figgered it would help here.
That's a valid statement, Raz. As much as I enjoy our gentle and polite neighbors to the North, they thought their military was getting too agressive and GOT RID of their Airborne forces. The whole MOUT thing would be a Horrible nightmare of extreme proportions to these folks. They'd more than likely be an occupied territory.
I think an invaded Canada would actually largely not notice, because the citizenry would choose to ignore it and hope it'd go away... right now Canada's general opinion of Afghanistan is that we are not involved in fighting and people are protesting (in the Canadian way, of complaining on the radio) sending troops there to fight.. except that JTF has been there since the beginning, fighting, and we've just chosen to ignore and then forgotten about it.
And of course, we have to use the US, and commerical flights, to get our troops around. (even though oddly quite a noticable portion of our military is transport-based, all of our planes are so outdated that everybody is afraid of Sea King syndrome, where they might just suddenly fall the hell out of the sky)
I think, after that bit o ramble, that if a country invaded Canada, as long as they were careful and weren't extremely violent and destructive (which I know, isn't really an "invasion" in the typical sense), Canada might just accept it and go along for a while, no matter how nervous the US got, to the point that the US might invade. Which is better from a US standpoint anyway... why fight to defend US cities when you could fight in Canada, and just pay some money for some rebuilding later on?
why fight to defend US cities when you could fight in Canada, and just pay some money for some rebuilding later on?
Somehow I dont think our northern neighbor civvies will see the practicality of someone getting paid for them getting killed as a Collateral Casualties. People have a tendency to complain when they are the "just a few" getting killed.
Although I still stand by the Chino-Canadio Alliance theory: Red Star / Red Maple Leaf.... sure it's just a coincidence...... I'm not fooled by the Northern Red Meanace Can-Coms
Sure the Cannucks were made at the US for leaving a bunch of detroyed equipment and trash in their yard when we were training for WWII but thats about the most irrate they've been at the states in a while. I personally think they'd roll over like the French and offer resistance movements but thats all.
At least with the southern route there'd be more of a unified front due to the amount of corruption people are prone to in Mexico. Not a condemnation, just the facts. And a willing populace WITH motive as well.
Yer preachin' to the choir, bro. I seen them Canadian fellas when I was down in Louisiana during Sept for the Katrina effort and the only thing they did was fly around in their helicopters. Perhaps they were in New Orleans doing other things but nobody heard about it.
Most of the Canadians down there that were inland were SAR guys, who were actually only allowed to be there for a week. Rest were all Navy, doing food drops and stuff like that. Weren't cleared to do much of anything at all.
See, the US and China fighting inside Canada, as a Canadian, I can see working. Canadians really don't get mad, and our government generally ignores us when we are, which also makes us mad, but still not mad enough to do anything about it. And if there was fighting going on, it'd be a little late.. and afterward, if the government was sufficiently smoothed over, the citizens... well, in our federal election last month, a party that has admitted to outright stealing hundreds of millions of dollars still managed to end up with 105 seats in Parliament, and the winning party got 124. Right now in our trade files, the US is sitting on ~5 billion that Canada considers to be our money. And we're "mad" in Canada's way.. and it's a trade dispute that's been going on since the 80's.
As a people, Canadians are incredibly good at just ignoring things, and letting things go, after we've said our stern word on the matter, and pretend we weren't ignored, and we're especially forgiving toward the US.
Those red bands on either side of the leaf are actually the communist tide seeping into our country. ;)
That part just kills me. :D Oh wait, this happens in my country too.
Man, I hate cowboys. Your post just makes me think that while the Canadian Govt. might roll over and take it, her people will have other things in mind.
Da Da Dum!
Enter the Northern Lights Guerilla movement! With our onsite spokesman, codename: RazoreFace. Bear in mind, ladies and gentlemen, that a great degree of what our friend says is Highly Confidential he is able to give us some highlights as to the current situation in that area. Mr Razoreface, if you please?
The thing is that if we're willing to allow an invasion of North America, we should at least allow for some possible heroism, and Canadian citizens fighting by themselves is heroic.
Not to mention incredibly resourceful. Look at the VC from Vietnam for example. The WORLD knows how resourceful they were. Canadians, coming from a "Hunting" culture from Revolutionary era, would be well suited for the Guerilla role. Because they're accostumed to environment.
Environment being the third combatant on the field. Important stuff.
Environment being the third combatant on the field. Important stuff.
Are you suggesting we fall back to the rockies & the great white north in a Scorched Earth campaign? They have the himalayas to train up in, we really cant rely on freezing them out.... but like the movie said:
'Charlie dont surf'
We can meet them on the breakers from La Jolla to Zuma and just out surf them. They clearly will withdraw from the shame they brought unto their ancestors by being out ripped, dude. The best intel I have, or even made up, says they cant shred the shortboard.
Your post just makes me think that while the Canadian Govt. might roll over and take it, her people will have other things in mind.
We'd just better hope that our talk radio shows are still going on, or we wouldn't be able to do anything! :D
Seriously... Canada's law abiding citzenry are by an large a disarmed populace.
Only about 15% of Canada's 33 million people report owning firearms, because handguns have been essentially illegal since the 30's, and since the early 90's it's been intentionally made more and more of a pain to own rifles, so people have just gotten rid of them. (Or simply not registered them, I think the actual ownership is more in the mid-20% range) The government did essentially the same with our military... didn't see the need, so made it harder for them to operate, then since they weren't using all their budget, slowly whittled everything down. In the cities, gun ownership earns you wide-eyed shocked looks from people.. in the smaller rat towns like my sister lives in, it's not that bad, but it's still much less normal than I experienced even just across into Washington.
I really can't think of what Canadians in general would do if they were actually directly threatened.. because we never really have been, and we've developed into a nation of nonviolent passive aggressive complainers. At least in the US, people aggressively complain.
If you go way back to the last time Canadians actually were threatened, the big thing we accomplished was getting drunk, piling into a boat, sneaking around and setting a bunch of buildings on fire. That's not even really fighting... that's if you really tick us off, we'll sneak off and slash your tires. We'd want to resist, or do something, but the majority of people wouldn't know how, or wouldn't have the ability. Maybe throw hot Starbucks at them.
Here in the states, the SF guys go through an exercise at the end of their training called Robin Sage. This is where they practice their learned skills of Insurgencies (aka How to win friends and Influence them into taking over the Govt) but more importantly "blending into" their new surroundings. There is a WWII precedent of this called Jedburgh Teams. If you can get a copy, there's a book called Shadow Warriors that was written by Gen. Carl Stiner and Tom Clancy that I've found to be pretty accurate. I personally wish there was more PSYOP stuff in the book, but its a keeper just the same.
Sorry Backstabbist, my roomie from Korea could speak Surfer and understand all that but I was more fluent in Bordertrash. That and the Great White North dialect. So I'll be practicin' my talkin' and hope fer da weather ta get better, eh? Just by my fireplace here in Colorado waiting for the CanComs ta come down and get theirs. You betcha! Stay warm, eh.
Here in the states, the SF guys go through an exercise at the end of their training called Robin Sage. This is where they practice their learned skills of Insurgencies (aka How to win friends and Influence them into taking over the Govt) but more importantly "blending into" their new surroundings.
*grin* one of my ROTC buddies was OPFOR for Robin Sage one summer. Evidently, Robin Sage trains the SF guys, and the OPFOR for that gets additional training. He said it was great.
Oggie
To me, it seems the American will to fight has been slowly declining; frankly, i don't know if we could handle a major war, even without the drain of Iraq.
The US is a nation of spoiled people and spoiled people will do many things to keep their cherished privilages.
ok, they didn't ban all guns, just ones that can hurt people... or look like they can hurt people. Take away assult weapons cause you can run around & shoot, and ban 'sniper' weapons because you can stand still shoot, short range pistols have no sporting purpose, and huge long range guns have no sporting porpose.
Maybe we can stop the invaders in Vegas
Not to worry Rav. I expect a few million of your fellow Canadians to simply move south to avoid the issue. And lots of Americans would probably go North for the hell of it---whether aiding or hindering the Chinese.
Oggie
I sure would.
It really wouldn't take a terribly long time of the US putting pressure on the government here until they just give up and let the US military in, because there would be US civilians and SF teams in Canada within a matter of days... but then, we'd have to worry about getting them out later on.
But I wouldn't go back afterward. :D
Actually, one thing i've always been concerned with is the Ameican will to fight. In World Wars I and II, we were basically implacable. In Korea, nobody cared. In Vietnam, nobody cared/they did not support the war. In Gulf War I, the American concern wasn't victory as much as it was low casulties.
To me, it seems the American will to fight has been slowly declining; frankly, i don't know if we could handle a major war, even without the drain of Iraq.
The funny thing is is that people were saying the same things before WW one and two. For the first, they were probably right. That war was vastly unpopular and the fact that Wilson kept changing the reasons for the war (heck, started the war right after being inaugurated thanks to a "He Kept Us Out Of The War" slogan) did not help. We started the second with most of the same expectations (which were "proved" at Bataan, Kasserine, Java, etc). As a writer pointed out (Ernie Pyle, good guy), Americans take a couple years to get wound up.
Korea was a deeply supported war, if not very demonstrably (there's a scene in The Godfather that sums it up). Viet Nam was such a bungled mess it's hard to believe anyone was for it, but they were up until 1968 and the Extremely Bungled Reporting on Tet. The most vocal pro-war faction? College Professors, New England Democrats, the Media...you know, all those Liberal people. They're really Statist Centrists, but that I'll leave for another time.
Oggie
-MVK
After my experiences in the Army, I have been turned into a cynic of extreme proportions and don’t believe in “coincidences”. That’s just me.
But taking the above into this particular context of Invading the US, the major factor to consider is Timeline. Call it your own personal Chess game. I’ve already laid out the formula for a successful Insurgency.
But just maybe I’ll try my hand at this rodeo here. We’ll have this as an audience participation story with challenges. First up:
ATTENDING COURT
The various mining operations in the great wildernesses of western Canada were a pleasant surprise. Even the port city of Prince Rupert offered a strategic foothold that was unparalleled in the limited western Canadian coastline. It was capable of unloading the “mining equipment” from the foreign investors from a Hong Kong firm. Already in the area was another mining company called Imperial Something or Other. Good for them. Just more credibility of having an asian influence in the area. Miners are supposed to be burly, right? A good “foreman” always inspects his “workers”, right?
Day after day, the conga line of heavy ships offloaded various equipment but always at night and under a heavy security presence. Also being unloaded was tens of thousands of railway line and possibly twenty disassembled engines. Already various railway routes were being negotiated from Prince Rupert all the way out to Quebec. There was also a battalion of surveyors making measurement for “Collection and Distribution” centers that seem to line up with the US interstates running North-South. Money didn’t seem to be an object.
Thousands of miles away to the south….
Next challenge: The King and I.
Going once?
Yer preachin' to the choir, bro. I seen them Canadian fellas when I was down in Louisiana during Sept for the Katrina effort and the only thing they did was fly around in their helicopters. Perhaps they were in New Orleans doing other things but nobody heard about it.
As a canadian, I see sooo many things wrong with this statement. Starting with the statement of Canadian helicopters "flying". Don't you watch the news outside of your nation? Canadian helicopters rely on a type of "controlled falling" to travel around. ;)
Our troops have far better training than any other country in the world with regard to evacuating an out of control helicopter.
This is an interesting thread. Were Canada actually invaded, I'm not sure how it's citizens would react. Saying that Canadians dislike fighting is true, but the same has been said about nations in the past that have surprised everyone with their tenacity.
I do know that, any offer of neutrality to Canada from China would likely be a lie and occupation would be permenant. Canada being a haven for American forces (How many Canadains don't have relatives or friends in the states) would be too much of a risk and the Chinese would realize this. The Canadian government would also realize that the Chinese would have a very dominant and quite likely permenant presence and have little choice but to side with the Americans (especially given China's history of human rights issues).
Though are forces are extremely limited, slowing down an invading force going through the rockies likely wouldn't require much in the way of man power. And it would be a matter of slowing them down long enough for support from the American forces (and eventually the Europeans, since Canada is also a member of Nato)
Basically Canada's fate would probably hang on whether or not the Rockies held long enough for our allies to show up with some firepower that isn't a Joke
.I like the idea of combining several plans of attack: 2 million horde Cargo Landing all along the west coast, followed about 16 hours later by 2million horde rolling across the Mexican border AND 2million horde crossing from Canadia. The diversionary west coast assault was just to make us move our crap to the left and leave the top & bottom open. Pop a nuke in a boat 50 miles off NY, VA, GA, & Florida on a day with wind blowing the fallout onshore to ~disrupt~ the eastern seaboard... civvies hate being in nuke fallout and can't evacuate without killing eachother.
I had this friend at Ft Bragg that would say that, "Helicopters don't fly. They beat the air into submission."
Backstabbist (and everyone else for that matter)- Remember the "Post a:blank" games? Post a gun, vehicle, feat, granny panties, whatever. Thats why I left my last post open as a challenge. I had opened with a strategy for the Northern Op Area aka Canadian Western Shore. It wasn't my "cup of tea" but it was an attempt to do a concept I used to do in AD&D called "To the right." The player already has a idea about how they want their character played and now the buddy on the right plays that character maybe the same or maybe different than the original player. Some of my favorite characters were never mine to begin with.
My intent here is to put together a feasible OPFOR taskforce for the taking over of the States like Arriurra had wanted to do. All of the Horde landing stuff will happen but probably not till the end.
I'll use the Terrorist analogy here cause it fits. Everyone in the "affected area" of a Terrorist bomb sees ONLY the final step. The explosions and mass devastation that the bomb/device creates. Meanwhile Joe the Terrorist and his buddies are usually in the next county or state over watching the confusion on CNN drinking some cold beers waiting for the final money to roll into various offshore accounts. Toasting another successful operation with NO UNPLANNED TEAM CASUALTIES.
Its all about planning and being "Calm like a Bomb."
Later: more Tales of Dudley DoRight and the Orient Express
Oh yeah, I doubt most folks would know a Down Wind Projection if it bit them in the Toe. I hated those calculations.
Enjoy,
Doug
(or atleast i do)Back to the topic......If they pumped in money into mexcio or just pumped in money into the cartels then tehy might be able to station troops and other things down there and have an attack from all sides
Oggie
)Seems like Arriurra might not have his thread go the way he wanted. But thats okay because I was going to pick this up on my original People of the Sun thread instead. All those wishing to contribute are welcome.
Doug
- Get as many supertankers and supercargos as possible, then empty them out and modify them for carrying troops, armoured and wheeled vehicles, helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft. The decks of those ships would be long enough to launch combat jets from, and transport planes if aided by catapult systems used on aircraft carriers.
- Have the aircraft and helicopters concealed in huge shipping containers, then when it it time to launch them, you simply remove them from the containers and dump the containers overboards. One minute you have supertankers and supercargos, next thing there are military aircraft launching from their decks.
- While the aircraft and helicopters provide air cover, beach the transports and let the troops go to land. You could hold at least a thousand men, if not several thousand more, on each. I've actually calculated it before, if you used converted supertankers and supercargos, and with all of the support personnel, supplies, vehicles and aircraft, you could still fit at least five thousand troops inside. Really nasty invasion force there.
- If the Chinese were to buy, say 100 of the ships, and convert them, that's at least five hundred thousand infantry. Add to that the armoured vehicles, wheeled vehicles, support equipment, artillery, and everything else the Chinese have, and you've got yourself a pretty decent invasion force.
Of course, if nothing else, then you've got the problems of gangs and militia, in cadillacs and supercars, doing drivebys with AKs and SMGs.
BTW, what is this, "People of the Sun" thread about?
The invasion might be feasible if you take the following steps:
- Get as many supertankers and supercargos as possible, then empty them out and modify them for carrying troops, armoured and wheeled vehicles, helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft. The decks of those ships would be long enough to launch combat jets from, and transport planes if aided by catapult systems used on aircraft carriers.
- Have the aircraft and helicopters concealed in huge shipping containers, then when it it time to launch them, you simply remove them from the containers and dump the containers overboards. One minute you have supertankers and supercargos, next thing there are military aircraft launching from their decks.
- While the aircraft and helicopters provide air cover, beach the transports and let the troops go to land. You could hold at least a thousand men, if not several thousand more, on each. I've actually calculated it before, if you used converted supertankers and supercargos, and with all of the support personnel, supplies, vehicles and aircraft, you could still fit at least five thousand troops inside. Really nasty invasion force there.
- If the Chinese were to buy, say 100 of the ships, and convert them, that's at least five hundred thousand infantry. Add to that the armoured vehicles, wheeled vehicles, support equipment, artillery, and everything else the Chinese have, and you've got yourself a pretty decent invasion force.
Of course, if nothing else, then you've got the problems of gangs and militia, in cadillacs and supercars, doing drivebys with AKs and SMGs.
Problem is that you can't convert oil tankers to transport people without making them unseaworthy, and you can't just load troops into cargo containers. There are only 7 ULCC tankers in the world and only around 300 VLCC, anyone buying hundreds of these vessels would garner a LOT of attention. Also, whenever ONE of these ships is dry-docked for overhaul people start asking a lot of unwanted questions. The fact is that, while this is an excellent campaign idea, realistically it wouldn't happen.
However, does that mean that anything involving vampires, gnoll pimps, Duct Tape of Repair, and so on should not be played because it is also unrealistic?
This is d20 Modern. As long as there is enough sense to maintain suspension of disbelief, you can do a lot of stuff.
We are all quite aware that this is an unrealistic campaign idea.
However, does that mean that anything involving vampires, gnoll pimps, Duct Tape of Repair, and so on should not be played because it is also unrealistic?
This is d20 Modern. As long as there is enough sense to maintain suspension of disbelief, you can do a lot of stuff.
Didn't I say that it was a great campaign idea? My point was that you shouldn't delve into specifics of the invaision in order to maintain that disbelief.
personally - the premise that :
" the reborn sorcerer ming the muppet casts the ceremony of t`skak on the doom portal - allowing his legiaon of undead warriors to we teleported to the heart of america in the blink on any eye "
would be far more believable for me in a game
than :
" the pla-n retfits 100 VLCC hulls as troop carrioers at the shanghia municipal ship yars - and sens 6 milliuon men actross to attack america in 3 waves - i from the north , through canada , one from the south through mexico - and the last attacking via amphibious landings on the pacific coast "
just my view - as i said - you may differ
Cool, now it's a 4 front war, with one from within
T-16 months: The Taiwanese government, by the narrowest possible margin, approves a law reunifying Taiwan with China. Amid accusations that the members of parliament have been bought out by the PRC the government dismantles in preparation for the Chinese takeover. But all is not well for China: their Taiwanese provincial government is no sooner set up than it is destroyed by a quickly organized Taiwanese resistance group, the Taiwan Freedom Corps. The TFC claims to be the legitimate Taiwanese government, a claim intially backed up by the United States. US forces in Japan and the Pacific mobilize for combat, and several aircraft carriers are dispatched to the Taiwanese Straits. The PLA lands several hundred thousand troops on the island in order to quell the uprising, and do so with alarming rapidity, killing thousands, including many innocent bystanders. China receives diplomatic from all over the world, and the US passes a hefty tariff on imported Chinese goods. China files an official protest, but things seem to quiet down. In reality, the People’s Liberation Army and the civilian government have both decided it is time to end America as a threat to China.
T-14 months: Chinese companies begin buying up space in America’s ports. In addition, China begins buying large shares in Canadian transportation companies. In South America, China begins channeling funds to drug dealers and various despotic
governments. Chinese special ops successfully infiltrate several terrorist organizations.
T-11 months: Several Canadian companies are now wholly owned by Chinese investors. Chinese agents bribe, blackmail and otherwise corrupt Canadian government oficials. Down south, Mexicans (unknowingly) vote a pro-China candidate into the office of presidency.
T-10 months: Certain “Canadian” companies begin construction projects near the border. Many of the workers are, inexplicably, Asian.
T-7 months: 12 Chinese tankers are taken into dry docks for “repairs”. Most South American governments adopt a decidedly more anti-yanqui policy. At this point, Chinese operatives enter the United States.
T-4 months: Canada signs a free trade treaty with China that “happens” to have non-agression riders in it.
T-1 month: the 12 outfitted Shinese supertankers set off for the US
T-5 hours: Flight 1070 takes off from Ronald Reagan National Airport. Four minutes later, it crashes into the House of Representatives wing of the Capital Building where the State of the Union address is being held. The Congress, the Supreme Court, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, most of the presidential cabinet and the President himself are all killed instantly. The Islamic Jihad of Iran claims responsibility for the attack, and terrorist attacks in coalition-held Iraq, Iran and UN-held North Korea double overnight.
Zero hour: The supertankers, already arrived at their ports, disgorge hundreds of thousands of Chinese soldiers as well as tanks and planes. Tank columns cross the Canadian border, and airstrikes on cities in the northern US begin. To the south, drug lords and paramilitary organizations send their troops across the border via land and sea. The US border patrol (and the so-called Minutemen) are wiped out. US troops are forced out of occupied North Korea, and in Iraq and Iran all the old hotspots flare up with a violence never seen before. Hackers destroy infrastructure and communication lines in much of the nation.
-MVK
technically also if things flair up in Iraq then wouldnt NATO be called in to help?
thus a problem, would Europe and NAto stand by and see America invaded? also how would the NATO council see canadas actions?
would Russia also try and get troops to america to help? would NATO? AUstralia and new Zealand would maybe deploy to Japan to maybe start an offensive against china? India and pakistan would then maybe come in to play!
so before long would it escalate?
And how far would it escalate?
would NATO sit back? would the european council sit back?
what would the UN do?
would it be WOrld WAR 3?????????????????????
Yes it would be WWIII
NATO would do very little if anything (it's more a peace-keeping force than a war force)
The EU would have problems of it's own (there's Jihad brewing there), but the Brits would try to do something.
The Russians...I don't rightly know, really. Chances are they'd move south into the Mid-East, start conquering, maybe into China as well.
The Pakistanis would back China while the Indians the U.S.
And finally, the UN...heh...yeah....anyone remember the League of Nations?
I think people my be underestimating both how effective and how likely some sort of economic disruption may be. Given the current federal debt, the current federal budget deficit and the current trade deficit, and the fact that our currency has no inherent value our economy is a house of cards. We could easily see Weimar Republic style hyperinflation here.
Would it be to the advantage of the Chinese to bring that about? That depends, but the larger problem is that it will likely happen anyway regardless of what the Chinese do. Given that this is the sort of thing that can be predicted as eventually happening (even if trying to predict the exact timing of the event is problematic) then I could see the Chinese planning for its occurrence. My bet would be that they wouldn't do anything too serious until our economy had seriously tanked. Given that the military power we can project is a function of our economic power then it would be to their advantage to play things "safe" until then. Afterwards I can see them trying to milk the situation for all they can get out of it.
While I see internal disruptions and problems with Mexico (or at least Mexicans who buy into the "Reconquista" philosophy) as pretty much guaranteed, it is also likely that there will be at least some other foreign involvement. Quite simply, the potential stakes with what could come open for grabs here are high enough that China, Russia and or other players (the U.N. hoping for a larger role?) may find that taking some sort of opportunistic pot shot is just a little too tempting.
As far as a Russian/Chinese alliance goes, I will grant that they may not like each other much. However, you are also dealing with rather totalitarian regimes where pragmatism can trump all. I could easily see some sort of agreement being reached between the two of them where they take on playing games in CONUS after a suitable economic collapse. Russia trying to make sure that they could prosecute whatever operation got undertaken to their maximum possible advantage to the last drop of Chinese blood and the Chinese returning that favor.
Also note that from the point of view of a foreign power, trying to take over the entire country here may be much more of a problem than it's worth. However, if they could successfully arrange for what we know as America to get broken up into several chunks that don't like each other much, then America will have effectively ceased to exist as a "player" on the world level. Thus the relative level of power that the Chinese, the Russians and other assorted groups exercise would increase as America wouldn't be able to call or influence the shots anymore. All the foreign powers would have to do is just make sure that the chunks America got broken up into wouldn't get back together again. Which could easily be accomplished through diplomatic and special operations style skullduggery.
So, the question is, (however detailed you want but timeline is prefered), "How do they accomplish this?"
Miles came up with a fairly good timeline. The ONLY discrepancy I can see is the role of US involvement concerning Taiwan. America seems to be the Champion of "Democracy" and fledgling countries and I don't see the US involvement of letting the Hostile takeover of Taiwan by China slide so easily. Not if China's goal is to establish a foothold in the North American continent. If they were to establish an infrastructure or Staging Areas in various nearby countries and THEN pull the Taiwan stuff to instigate a fight with the states, then they would have a more believable base to accomplish this with.
But CONGRATULATIONS on the two of you on calling me outta lurker mode with your posts. Wonder Twin powers indeed. ;)
So, as I see it the sequence of events might unfold something like this:
1) The U.S. economy tanks and the worldwide economy starts having serious conniption fits.
2) China makes a serious play for Taiwan.
3) The U.S. attempts to block the Chinese play for Taiwan, both sides deciding that they don't want to go nuclear. However, the U.S. counter thrust is weakened due to lack of funding for intervention forces. That coupled with some excellent results on the part of Chinese military intelligence leads to the loss of two American carrier battle groups. China ends up with Taiwan. America ends up losing a significant percentage of her naval strength.
4) Japan sees the writing on the wall and not being a total stranger to pragmatism opts for "neutrality" throughout the coming struggle. The Chinese and their new best friends in the entire world, the Russians, decide that is a reasonable state of affairs. As a result Japan is left alone militarily and effectively becomes the trading partner and high tech production assistant for the Sino/Soviet Alliance.
5) Our good buddies, the Australians and the New Zealanders, who have been helping us all along continue to do so. They are not able to mount sufficent forces to make a dent in the situation though. China comes to an agreement with Indonesia and gets the Indonesians to invade Australia and New Zealand. From that point on both Australia and New Zealand find themselves in a long, drawn out, bloody struggle for mere survival that they have a serious chance of losing.
6) The Reconquista seriously gets underway in the southwestern United States. Given that enough illegal aliens from Mexico, Central and South America have already infiltrated that area to give them close to a majority voting block this is a very serious problem. The U.S. government reacts with force and finds itself bogged down in guerilla warfare, with the guerillas being augmented by the Mexican military and Chinese special operations teams.
7) After all of that has been stewing for a while the Sino/Soviet alliance launches a military invasion of North America across the Bering Strait. Technically America still has overall naval superiority. However, this is countered by the fact that the area in and around the Bering Strait simply doesn't permit America to effectively bring her naval power to bear. The Sino/Soviet alliance is able to get and keep naval superiority in this vital area. Also note that with the ports that would otherwise be available to the American fleet in southern California being unusable due to the problems posed by the Reconquista that American naval power is nowhere near what it had been before the American economy tanked.
8) It now comes down to a question of just how much damage the Sino/Soviet alliance actually intends to do. Note that a minimalist strategy for them would be to overrun Alaska and a chunk of western Canada and then call it quits. Offer a peace treaty. With America torn by what could end up being a three or more way civil war (depending on which states or portions of states take umbrage with whatever methods the Feds use to oppose the Reconquista in addition to those states directly affected by the Reconquista) and Canada never having been a player militarily there would be no forces available to pose a serious threat to them. Offering the peace treaty would (if accepted) give the Sino/Soviet alliance time to cement their position in Alaska and Canada and prepare for future operations to take place at a later time. Or simply keep America and Canada in perpetual turmoil while they then turn their attention to Europe.
9) The main fly in this ointment as far as the Sino/Soviet alliance is concerned is whatever Europe might decide to do about all that. However, I would suspect that there is a fair chance that with the worldwide economy in disarray and Europe just about at the point of becoming a Moslem enclave that they might not do all that much. Especially if somebody sweetened the pot with some interesting diplomatic and business maneuvers to buy their neutrality.
10) The other interesting question is how long the Russians and the Chinese would maintain their alliance before they decided to go after one another. However, to the extent that they both feel they are benefiting significantly from it then they might keep it going for quite a while, possibly decades.
1) The meltdown of the US economy means the end of the world economy. We are the largest consumer, largest producer, largest manager and largest banker (despite what the Swiss say). China would be hit especially hard since over half their economy is directly tailored to work for the US. Russia and China will also starve, because the first victim of serious economic disruption is (ironically) agriculture. US ag takes a hit, they don't get any more bread.
4) I think you are seriously underestimating the Japanese loathing for both the Chinese and the Russians. Moscow has still refused to give any accounting for the Kwantung Army (3 million men) and are occupying several Japanese islands (which both the UN and the ICC have declared suitable casus belli so Japan may legally start a war to get them back. Too bad we took away their army.
5) Indonesia is a good candidate for becoming the next Yugoslavia. Power projection is laughable for them.
6) American militia. WOLVERINES!!
7) Go Northern Lights. Oh yeah, navy would probably be based in Seattle instead of San Diego.
8) "The purpose of peace is to prepare for war." Stalin, I think. That means war by every other means than actually shooting---cutting throats is still 'peace'.
10) One of the quirks of the break up of the USSR is that many of the nukes aimed at the US left Moscow's control. Everything pointed at China is still there. Over half of China's nukes are pointed at Russia. You can do the math.
Oggie
The other problem being that even if one could get access to the appropriately classified information that STILL doesn't guarantee either its accuracy or the accuracy of estimates based on it. That being said:1) Yep, the U.S. economy in the tank would end up meaning the rest of the world's economy would end up in the tank just like a row of falling dominoes. However, let it simply be observed that desperate times call for desperate measures and it could be argued that our economy is actually more vulnerable in some ways to long term disruptions than the economies of some of the other countries out there. For one thing we just about don't have a manufacturing base anymore.
4) I don't doubt that the Japanese loathe the Chinese and the Russians. However, the Japanese are pragmatists and as you have so cogently pointed out they don't have an army anymore. Their navy, while very well equipped and highly professional, is also too small to seriously butt heads with a combined Sino/Soviet fleet. By the way that is my professional opinion after having seen them in operation (*). Given a scenario where America is unable to provide them with enough of a security blanket to protect them from the Chinese and Soviets operating in what is almost literally their backyard I could see Japan deciding that Finlandization had a lot going for it. This would be a much more telling argument in the hypothetical scenario discussed where China had already scarfed Taiwan and the U.S. Navy had taken a serious hit.
5) When I talked with some of my counterparts in the RAN over a decade or so ago they weren't looking at Indonesia as a laughing matter. It's not really "power projection" if you're talking about something a country is doing in its own back yard. Australia is for all intents and purposes in Indonesia's back yard. The RAN is basically in the same condition that the Japanese Navy is. Well equipped, highly trained, thoroughly professional, and enitrely too small to accomplish much more than dying gloriously for their country if they get hit hard enough and fast enough.
At one point in time I was able to have a long discussion via email with a gentleman who was in Australia's equivalent of the GAO. He told me that the Royal Australian Army's plan for the defense of Australia against an invading force was to abandon the coast and wage guerilla war from the Outback. My comment to him was that if they weren't planning on holding at least one of their port cities it would make attempting to give them aid and comfort almost impossible.
Granted I haven't stayed current on affairs in Indonesia. However, one good strongman dictator can occasionally turn things around in a country in a surprisingly short period of time. Australia has a lot of coastline to cover, not that many ships to do it with, and could be faced with the potential problem of having their navy taken out by virtue of having the ports it operates from being overrun.
6) You will notice my scenario had the Sino/Soviet force stopping to consolidate their position before they proceeded on into CONUS, with a supposition that said period of consolidation could last several years. Need I say more? ;)
7) The Juan de Fuca straits that one has to be able to get in and out of in order to access Seattle are a lot more constricted than the areas around the other ports on the west coast that the Navy could use. This would be especially true if there was a hostile, foreign power occupying Vancouver Island. They wouldn't NEED to take either Seattle or Bremerton in order to control the flow of ships and cargoes into and out of the ports there.
At any rate, I think I've commented enough. I was mainly trying to make the original scenario that was proposed more "realistic" than it was originally. I think I succeeded, though other people may rightly disagree. If I were to get out my crystal ball and prognosticate what the actual "real world" scenario is likely to look like some time in the indefinite future I think we would see.
A) An economic collapse. Based on the way that I understand things this is a question of when, not if, and it will be nasty.
B) Unrest for various reasons at least in urban population centers here in America. Reasons could be as varied as the Reconquista types making their move, or hordes of people reacting very badly to loss of government provided benefits and other problems associated with the collapse. Expect that the government here will react to this by becoming MUCH more totalitarian, which will in turn set off a whole host of other consequences.
C) In fact, regardless of whatever else happens here, I see the government as becoming MUCH more totalitarian. History repeats itself, but each time the price goes up.
D) As a result of A, and definitely if we are dealing with A & B, I see various different groups on the world stage making various different plays. China has wanted Taiwan so badly for so long I think it is inevitable that they will do something to take it.
E) If things do go badly enough for long enough here in America, I think we might see some sort of foreign intervention/involvement. Quite simply the stakes would be too high and too tempting to expect that everybody else would simply sit off to the side and let America get its act together. The least we could expect is that somebody would play games with various special operations forces here. Arguably judging by real world news items dealing with alleged Mexican troops playing games on our southern border and Chinese dissidents being assaulted and robbed in their houses here in America that may already be happening to some extent. Things could get very interesting.
(*) My moniker, Cutlass, stems from the fact that I am a former U.S. Navy mustang (rose through the ranks) line officer (LTJG, SWO). The last ship I was on was the USS BLUE RIDGE (LCC-19) homeported out of Yokosuka, Japan back in the late 80's - early 90's.
If you want to run a campaign where China invades the U.S. than do it, don't try to make it plausible because its not (at least in modern times, I can't predict the future admitedly). China invading the U.S. is about as likely as aliens attacking. That being said there are a lot of RPGs and computer games that I love that involve that scenario, this could be a good one too.
As CoyoteGunn said "just getting a bunch of tankers and converting them to carry troops" is pretty friggin hard. Modifying a tanker or container ship to be an aircraft carrier is about as expensive as buying an actual aircraft carrier and China couldn't even buy that old second hand Colossus class carrier from Brazil.
Operational Security would be a nightmare. The sheer number of people involved insures leaks. The workers modifying the tankers or container ships would all be talking about the crazy stuff the Chinese are doing. The troops themselves would be talking. Its too large to remain secret. The Soviets found out about The Bay of Pigs Invasion in 1961 before it happened and that involved only 1500 actual troops invading another country and that was all without the internet.
If somehow the US did not find out about this gigantic operation the Coast Guard would stop any large tanker a good distance away from US ports for safety reasons, if it persisted, ports close it runs aground and the front blows off or whatever, nevermind that to blow the front off a super tanker your going to kill a lot of the people its carrying. Then when it does blow off, rushing water floods the inner hull. Assuming everyone on board is a world class swimmer about 10% of them arrive on shore disorganized, and lightly armed if at all (kinda funny what salt water does to firearms after submergence).
If in the very likely event the US does find out about it the Chinese have the US Pacific Fleet to contend with. Even the aging Exocet missiles can incapacitate a tanker imagine what the naval version of a BGM 109 is going to do to it. Yes I realize missiles like that aren't going to destroy a 250000+ ton ship thats why I said incapacitate. Then you can let it sit there and the invasion force starves.
As for Chinese Special Operations Units coming into the US and coordinating decapitating strikes, sabotage, etc. its not likely. In a recent exercise Chinese special shore landing teams couldn't even coordinate fire from their supporting ships, during an exercise, let alone actual combat. The dadui is about the size of a US Special Forces Group. That means they have about 1000 people, they are trained primarily for operations around Asia. They can't operate a continent away without support effectively, quite simply they will be caught, by someone if it isn't US law enforcement or military it will be citizens.
As far as hacking is concerned, yes the Chinese do it, a lot. They aren't preparing for an invasion, they're ripping off our intellectual property, everything from design schematics to Beatle's albums.
As for making it through the Rocky Mountains, I would be surprised if they even make it that far. Almost every invasion bogs down around the 250 mile mark, and the disoriented nature of troops coming out of container ships and tankers is going to be hell on their timetable. Also don't forget, they have no air support. US warplanes can hit their columns at will. Sure we have a lot of them off serving in Iraq but we have MCAS Miramar in California right there. The Air Force has numerous bases on the west coast. The PACFLT can maneuver and create an anvil to the hammer of the land based air power. There is also an MEU on standby at all times ready to deploy on the west coast. Yea, its only about a battallion of marines, but its a battallion of better trained, fresh troops fighting on their own territory for their homes and families and they have air support, artillery (Naval Gunfire). Coronado will also be sending NAVSPECWARCOM assets to support the marines there. The Army can scramble another brigade of Rangers/Airborne troops that can be there within 24 hours. There's also the NTC in California (staffed by the 11th ACR). Those guys train our armored units year round, and they win almost every time. Their unorthodox tactics combined with the home field advantage pretty much spells out vicory for the US.
The Chinese would be completely isolated also. They would have no high command to coordinate the invasion. Whats that you say? What about satelite communications with the military district in Beijing? Oh you mean the one the 509th Bomb Wing leveled about 12 hours after the invasion commenced?
As far as gangs are concerned thats a fairly moot point. MS 13 is a drug/narcoterrorist group, they don't make money if they can't sell drugs and a destabilized US has less of a drug market, meaning its in their best interest to at the very least stay out of a Sino-US war and possibly aid the US forces. Most other gangs are racially integrated, there are very few gangs composed almost entirely of one nationality, that could field a significant threat to the US or China.
Sorry for the rant, I do have something useful to contribute however. Since we aren't talking realistic why not have special units from both sides with psionics and FX. It would create all kinds of interesting problems/responses. You could have special PSYOP telepaths working to turn Chinese commanders brains into goop. The Chinese could counter with their own special gene therapy soldiers etc. Its a good idea lets just stop messing with the plausibility and make it fun.
EDIT: Oh yeah and can we stop calling them ChiComs now, after all its been how long since China went capitalist?
Miles came up with a fairly good timeline. The ONLY discrepancy I can see is the role of US involvement concerning Taiwan. America seems to be the Champion of "Democracy" and fledgling countries and I don't see the US involvement of letting the Hostile takeover of Taiwan by China slide so easily. Not if China's goal is to establish a foothold in the North American continent. If they were to establish an infrastructure or Staging Areas in various nearby countries and THEN pull the Taiwan stuff to instigate a fight with the states, then they would have a more believable base to accomplish this with.
But CONGRATULATIONS on the two of you on calling me outta lurker mode with your posts. Wonder Twin powers indeed. ;)
Thanks for the compliment!
As for US involvment in Taiwan, I think that this is the crux of the matter in my timeline. US has never had a very clear policy concerning Taiwan vs. China, and if the reunification seemed to be coming from within Taiwan...
For that matter, I set up the Taiwan incident as the reason China wants to invade in the first place: the US was too threatening during the takeover, and hit China with tariffs after the takeover, giving both the military and civilian leaders a reason to invade.
Cutlass, I enjoyed reading your general timeline, and I thought it was interesting how you tackled it from a different perspective. I'm not sure, however, that the Russians would be that terrible a threat (unless you plan on setting it in theCold War era...), so I'm not confident such a boldly militarist plan would work (which is why my timeline relied more on stealth). Still, I do understand that the economic hit we would take in your timeline would significantly reduce our own military power.
Baator of the dark, I'm not sure that you understand, but for many of us, working out the plausibility is fun. Now you brought up several good points (especially Operational security), but I have to say that many of them have already been discussed and (some) dealt with. So I, and I think the rest of the posters, would appreciate it if instead of attempting to kill our topic, that you contribute thoughtfully to it.
-MVK
Oh wait, you two covered it already.
Viva la Revolucion, most honorable Vatos !
Thank you for adding to the conversation anyways Baator.
IMHO the only hope China or Russia or both of them acting together would really have of conventionally invading the U.S. with large forces would be to come over the Bering Strait route. The reasons for that are twofold:
1) Assuming the U.S. Navy is still at least marginally functional they aren't going to be able to ship the supplies that they will need through any other route that I can think of.
2) The Bering Strait is potentially confined enough that they could achieve and maintain a local naval superiority that would enable them to get their logistics shipments set up through there.
Modern military forces are the biggest logistics hogs that have ever existed in all of recorded history. In order to have a reasonable chance of taking over the North American continent, or even a significant chunk of it, you would need millions of troops and tens of millions of tons of supplies. Logistics hassels of that magnitude are basically only going to be solved by shipping and rail lines.
Now, how likely is it that China and Russia would get along well enough to pull that sort of thing off? Probably not very. But, if you want to have a scenario going where China is invading the U.S. with even a reasonable chance of success then they've got to be able to get their main military formations here en mass. To my way of thinking that necessarily implies using the Bering Strait route, which almost automatically assumes that China and Russia would have to be getting along in some fashion to pull that off.
That is also why I have the economic collapse and the Taiwan issue with large U.S. Naval losses occuring first. The U.S. Navy pretty much reigns supreme in the open ocean. Once you get up close to the coast it can be a different ball game and today's modern navy can have some serious disadvantages trying to operate too close in to a hostile shore.
So, take our economy into the toilet, remove a relatively significant chunk of the U.S. Navy assets available in WESTPAC, and then a combined Sino/Soviet fleet just might be able to maintain that local naval superiority in the Bering Strait they'd need to make the invasion work. But without all that, I just couldn't suspend my disbelief enough to see it happening.
Thoughts?
-MVK
Gangs are about making money, gettin' paid and have a love for capitalism that would make a CEO blush. And as for east coast gangs, they're not as large as they used to be and have mostly settled down into things like hustling drugs and other things.
A better target for chinese agents would be angry college kids.
When fighting a war like this the Chinese would use every available means to deal even minor damage in various places.
Even before a single PLA trooper steps on U.S. soil, the war would have begun, but as something unnoticeable unless one both knew what to look for and where to look. An economic war begins. Bombings by an unknown group. Strategic assassinations.
When the shooting starts, it won’t be by the Chinese. Proxy wars are an old tool, they'll use everything they can get their hands on: East Coast gangs would riot in NYC and DC armed with better-than usual arms and armor, MS-13 surges cross-country, any and all embedded terrorists begin to move more or less at once (you've gotta see that at least some of those folks are in the Chinese' back pocket), all agents embedded begin to take control of computer and power networks on both coasts.
All the while some Senators and Representatives are claiming that nothing is happening (wouldn't surprise me if they'd be having their incomes modified with out-of-country funds). Congressmen are pliable (as they are people), thus are commonly bought off by any dozen organizations.
Once the fecal matter hits the bladed rotating ceiling appliance and the actual invasion began, the U.S. military would be spread very thin (here and one must remember abroad as well). A mined harbor does very little good. You think that the Chinese (who literally wrote the book on war [Sun Tzu]) would do anything without preparing beforehand? Some form of aircraft carriers would be used (bombed airbases). Effectively it would boil down to small-team guerilla-style fighting on part of the U.S. (the PCs)
The Chinese could potentially get an initial assault force in position using some type of subterfuge. However, once they have actually come into the open and made the assault, seizing a port or two or whatever, the jig is up. You can bet your bottom dollar the Navy would try to intercept any and all shipping that looked like it was going to a port that was under the control of an invading hostile force.
In a nutshell, you can't have serious heavy duty military activity going for extended periods of time without serious heavy duty supplies. As I commented earlier, the Chinese would literally have to get millions of troops involved and that would necessitate tens of millions of tons worth of supplies they would need. Only two ways to move that much junk, by sea or by rail. There are no rail connections between China and the U.S. that I am aware of.
The freighters with the supplies have to come to a port, and to do the Chinese much good they've got to go to a port the Chinese control. Now, as to the Chinese playing games with Mexican and South American allies helping them, that is a more serious scenario. I don't know how closely if at all our intelligence types are monitoring what is going on in Mexico. So, assume that if the Chinese are willing to use a significant amount of subterfuge they probably could get a rather large force pouncing on into the U.S. through a border that is basically defenseless.
However, you come back to the base problem that eventually those troops are going to need supplies, which are going to have to come from somewhere. Unless Mexico is able to manufacture all the needed supplies on their soil they will have to import those supplies, which brings us back to the Navy intercepting freighters and blockading ports under the control of hostile nations.
Also, that is one of the scenarios where American Militia units could end up playing a significant role using hit and run tactics against anything that looked like a hostile supply column.
There is an old boardgame I have which may or may not still be available or findable. The title of the game is "SS Amerika". It was copyrighted in 1990 and published by 3W, Inc. in Cambria, California. You will just about need a full sheet of plywood to lay the board out and set up all the pieces and relevant charts on. It is an operational level simulation of hypothetical Axis invasions of the North American continent during World War II. The map covers the entire continent from north of the Yukon river all the way down to South America below Medellin, Colombia.
While it obviously has nothing at all to do with the Chinese, if you can find it and play it you should get an excellent idea of just how hard it could be to actually pull off a successful invasion of an entire continent. The biggest problem any attacker ends up facing is the force to space ratio that he would need to try to control the entire area given no popular support. Basically, regardless of where he goes and how he does it he's going to end up spread too thin. And that's not even counting what we could scrape up in terms of functioning military units on short notice.
Any successful invasion of the continent would necessarily take decades and probably end up looking more like the 30 and 100 years wars that ravaged Europe several centuries ago. Not a pretty sight.
. There's alot to be said about the capabilities of the men of ANY navy. Hard workers and Firefighters every one of them. Men of strength to be proud of. And just about some of the best sneaks out there. But now you're mentioning land strategies. American economies or Naval Power aside, I think this is where I come in. Or sneak.
When I was still active duty army, our unit was given the permanent assignment of knowing how the South and Central American societies worked. To include the militaries. IMHO, the best way to prep the Southern Approach would be to pull an "Iraq" on them. Meaning have a Sino/Soviet force do to the VERY WILLING countries of South and Central America what the US did for Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war. Dump INSANE amounts of Money,Equipment, and Training on the desired leader and forces. Because we're talking about a LOT of countries, the materials needed would have to be produced by a combined Sino/Soviet economy. The plus side is that the South American countries are ALSO able to provide an equitable trade product that would benefit the Benefactors. Infrastructure first. Picking up where Che Guevera left off during the fifties. Regular Communist Party of Whos' Who meetings. That and a more productive South America is better for all involved. Before and After the invasion.
SHIPS AND RAILWAYS.
There are PLENTY of railways that lace the various countries of South and Central America that go ALL THE WAY up to the US border. ALL THE WAY UP. And whatever amount of railway doesn't exist is easily remedied with availiable supplies and the surplus/unemployed amount of labor. I will grant that some of these railways might be close to being unservicable but thats an easy fix. The railways of these South American countries behave in the same that the railways here in the US do. Collection, Distribution, and Main Service Routes. This combined with the amount of rolling hills and mountain ranges in these countries makes for an interesting arrangement.
Almost the same could be said about our polite neighbors in the northlands of Canada with exception that the railways there are maintained and the lack of surplus labor. Also, there is already multiple asian mining firms in western canada and the railways are shared with the US. On a whim, follow the rail lines from Prince Rupert to Quebec. Forget the part that 80% of Canada's populace live within 100 miles of the border with the US.
Just for a moment, imagine a series of subterannean bunkers carved out of the mountain ranges in Canada and South America that were the products of "failed resource / archeological digs". Possibly fifty or so with the inside area capacity of about half of NORAD. EACH. All with HEAVY LIFT CRANES or RAMP SYSTEMS. The framework of these cranes serving the dual purpose of providing structural support to the mountain range to prevent the ever popular cave-ins. Bye-bye IMAGINT.
Particularly on the coasts and on the southern border of the US, there is an ever present amount of immigrants (legal and otherwise). I'm a fan of "strange and exotic" foods because of growing up on the border and because of my tour overseas. If you'll recall my statement regarding the Robin Sage exercise, hopefully you'll remember the "blending in" point of it. I mention this as an avenue to Infiltrate Advance Party teams to scout the OPAREA (US SOUTHERN BORDER) while finding employment as cooks in a Steven Segall sort of way. Who here HASN'T ran into some sort of asian that didn't speak engrish? GO-GO GADGET RECON !
Bring in the ships. The Sino/Soviet sail in mass quantities of dual purpose materials (civillian city transit buses have the SAME engines as military APC's) and orchestrate "worker groups" in the workplace with preselected "rising stars". These "rising stars" become foremen or frontline supervisors and coincidentally have been through military styled leadership courses. Receiving the VERY IMPORTANT rules of conduct for guerilla forces travelling through friendly territories, our local forces continue to expand the infrastructure of the unified latin economy while building a rapport with the populace. This would resemble the patriotic "Doughboys" from the WWII era. ALWAYS the Hearts and Minds mission.
In the north, there is more and more mining camps / beef ranges forming on the border with "Soviet Cowboys, Dudeski".
Progressively the buildup of an increasing militaristic style of equipment would arrive on the supply ships but would be hidden from view because of the mountain bunkers. What military equipment that is seen is from footage that was "accidentally leaked" to news agencies on the South American War on Drogas. More ground into the Mexican provinces secured on the laurels of evidenced economic progress from its brothers to the south. More railways revamped and a dramatic reduction of illegals attempting to cross into the US. It has become obvious across the provinces of where the PAYING JOBS are now. Work for anyone that will swing a hammer or pick or cook for hundreds.
BRING ON THE SNEAK
More men and materials on both sides and then the need for a diversion. China's invasion of Taiwan and the blanket of prepositioned submarines. With the purpose to draw off the US Navy's ability for any support of US ground forces. Did the Sino/Soviet force bring any air support of their own? Of course not, SAM units have ALWAYS been popular with Communist force doctrine. Much cheaper than an aircraft anyday.
OPEN THE FLOODGATES
People don't plan to fail, they fail to plan. Our combined Sino/Soviet force has secured what Clauswitz called the three essential ingredients to winning a war. Support of: 1. the Govt, 2. the People, 3. the Military. They have ALSO secured another ally with the combined South American militaries fulfilling the three times logic of an assault force. They have the economic and militaristic means of waging a sucessful war. The Bering Sea supply line is secondary at this moment.
In a move that hasn't been done since the Japanese in WWII, multiple cities on the North American West Coast were the recipients of naval bombardment from Chinese submarines. Thanks to our Advance Party scouts, the attacks were surgically accurate thanks to laser designators. Possibly one hour later, various deepwater harbors were seized all down the west coast.
Meanwhile the landbased Armored forces make the big push into the States via railhead and Airborne Sino/Soviet forces execute hundreds of Airfield Seizure missions using these to leapfrog onto deeper parts of the country. At various points using the Air-Mechanized strategy of airdropping armored units instead of the Airborne soldier. BMP's AWAY !!!
Notice that the east coast is untouched at this moment. The best way to destroy an enemy is to have them spend their way into economic ruin. This is when LANTFLEET is harrassed by the Soviet Navy while they sail out to save the rest of PACFLEET. Take 'em out to the deep and drown 'em.
Just an idea. Yer mileage may very.
Doug
Ever hear of Tiananmen Square?
Or Pol Pot?
Or Genghis Khan?
Or Kim Jong Il?
Or Imperial Japan in World War II?
Or...well, you get the picture.
We could just quote as many (or even many more, likely) episodes from Western cultures (but doing so would probably offend many here)... I don't think this is a subject that can be generalized like this.
One of which is that despite the rhetoric of a certain south american politician, the US is NOT the hated adversary to the north to the people of latin america as some would have us believe. How do I know? Gee, because I as a latino born here in the US knows too many Colombians, Venezuelans, Dominicans, Nicaraquans, Guatamalans, Mexicans, Costa Ricans, and others. They might strike a deal to make money, but if the Chinese start talking "revolucion" and about invading the US which is by the way to many of the poor in latin america the goose that lays the golden eggs, their agents will find out what Che Guevarra found out about messing around in their backyard.
My father and I give each other a considerable amount of good natured grief concerning the ARMY/NAVY relationship. I make jokes about the need of the Navy keeping grown sweaty half naked men in Very close proximity of each other and he tells me that there's only two things that fall outta the sky. Bird poop and Idiots. That and the extreme amusement he gets outta me not going on a ship on the open water. Go figure
There's alot to be said about the capabilities of the men of ANY navy. Hard workers and Firefighters every one of them. Men of strength to be proud of. And just about some of the best sneaks out there. But now you're mentioning land strategies. American economies or Naval Power aside, I think this is where I come in. Or sneak.
When I was still active duty army, our unit was given the permanent assignment of knowing how the South and Central American societies worked. To include the militaries. IMHO, the best way to prep the Southern Approach would be to pull an "Iraq" on them. Meaning have a Sino/Soviet force do to the VERY WILLING countries of South and Central America what the US did for Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war. Dump INSANE amounts of Money,Equipment, and Training on the desired leader and forces. Because we're talking about a LOT of countries, the materials needed would have to be produced by a combined Sino/Soviet economy. The plus side is that the South American countries are ALSO able to provide an equitable trade product that would benefit the Benefactors. Infrastructure first. Picking up where Che Guevera left off during the fifties. Regular Communist Party of Whos' Who meetings. That and a more productive South America is better for all involved. Before and After the invasion.
SHIPS AND RAILWAYS.
There are PLENTY of railways that lace the various countries of South and Central America that go ALL THE WAY up to the US border. ALL THE WAY UP. And whatever amount of railway doesn't exist is easily remedied with availiable supplies and the surplus/unemployed amount of labor. I will grant that some of these railways might be close to being unservicable but thats an easy fix. The railways of these South American countries behave in the same that the railways here in the US do. Collection, Distribution, and Main Service Routes. This combined with the amount of rolling hills and mountain ranges in these countries makes for an interesting arrangement.
Almost the same could be said about our polite neighbors in the northlands of Canada with exception that the railways there are maintained and the lack of surplus labor. Also, there is already multiple asian mining firms in western canada and the railways are shared with the US. On a whim, follow the rail lines from Prince Rupert to Quebec. Forget the part that 80% of Canada's populace live within 100 miles of the border with the US.
Just for a moment, imagine a series of subterannean bunkers carved out of the mountain ranges in Canada and South America that were the products of "failed resource / archeological digs". Possibly fifty or so with the inside area capacity of about half of NORAD. EACH. All with HEAVY LIFT CRANES or RAMP SYSTEMS. The framework of these cranes serving the dual purpose of providing structural support to the mountain range to prevent the ever popular cave-ins. Bye-bye IMAGINT.
Particularly on the coasts and on the southern border of the US, there is an ever present amount of immigrants (legal and otherwise). I'm a fan of "strange and exotic" foods because of growing up on the border and because of my tour overseas. If you'll recall my statement regarding the Robin Sage exercise, hopefully you'll remember the "blending in" point of it. I mention this as an avenue to Infiltrate Advance Party teams to scout the OPAREA (US SOUTHERN BORDER) while finding employment as cooks in a Steven Segall sort of way. Who here HASN'T ran into some sort of asian that didn't speak engrish? GO-GO GADGET RECON !
Bring in the ships. The Sino/Soviet sail in mass quantities of dual purpose materials (civillian city transit buses have the SAME engines as military APC's) and orchestrate "worker groups" in the workplace with preselected "rising stars". These "rising stars" become foremen or frontline supervisors and coincidentally have been through military styled leadership courses. Receiving the VERY IMPORTANT rules of conduct for guerilla forces travelling through friendly territories, our local forces continue to expand the infrastructure of the unified latin economy while building a rapport with the populace. This would resemble the patriotic "Doughboys" from the WWII era. ALWAYS the Hearts and Minds mission.
In the north, there is more and more mining camps / beef ranges forming on the border with "Soviet Cowboys, Dudeski".
Progressively the buildup of an increasing militaristic style of equipment would arrive on the supply ships but would be hidden from view because of the mountain bunkers. What military equipment that is seen is from footage that was "accidentally leaked" to news agencies on the South American War on Drogas. More ground into the Mexican provinces secured on the laurels of evidenced economic progress from its brothers to the south. More railways revamped and a dramatic reduction of illegals attempting to cross into the US. It has become obvious across the provinces of where the PAYING JOBS are now. Work for anyone that will swing a hammer or pick or cook for hundreds.
BRING ON THE SNEAK
More men and materials on both sides and then the need for a diversion. China's invasion of Taiwan and the blanket of prepositioned submarines. With the purpose to draw off the US Navy's ability for any support of US ground forces. Did the Sino/Soviet force bring any air support of their own? Of course not, SAM units have ALWAYS been popular with Communist force doctrine. Much cheaper than an aircraft anyday.
OPEN THE FLOODGATES
People don't plan to fail, they fail to plan. Our combined Sino/Soviet force has secured what Clauswitz called the three essential ingredients to winning a war. Support of: 1. the Govt, 2. the People, 3. the Military. They have ALSO secured another ally with the combined South American militaries fulfilling the three times logic of an assault force. They have the economic and militaristic means of waging a sucessful war. The Bering Sea supply line is secondary at this moment.
In a move that hasn't been done since the Japanese in WWII, multiple cities on the North American West Coast were the recipients of naval bombardment from Chinese submarines. Thanks to our Advance Party scouts, the attacks were surgically accurate thanks to laser designators. Possibly one hour later, various deepwater harbors were seized all down the west coast.
Meanwhile the landbased Armored forces make the big push into the States via railhead and Airborne Sino/Soviet forces execute hundreds of Airfield Seizure missions using these to leapfrog onto deeper parts of the country. At various points using the Air-Mechanized strategy of airdropping armored units instead of the Airborne soldier. BMP's AWAY !!!
Notice that the east coast is untouched at this moment. The best way to destroy an enemy is to have them spend their way into economic ruin. This is when LANTFLEET is harrassed by the Soviet Navy while they sail out to save the rest of PACFLEET. Take 'em out to the deep and drown 'em.
Just an idea. Yer mileage may very.
Doug
in relation to doctorromuls's post there are in fact several south and central American contirs were a noticeable part of there GDP is maid up of the $$ sent back home to family from workers in the USA. and that's leaving aside the simply massive amount of regular trade that crosses the border's every day. a lot of good hard self interest to over come right there.
Oggie
From Doc Rom
"One of which is that despite the rhetoric of a certain south american politician, the US is NOT the hated adversary to the north to the people of latin america as some would have us believe. How do I know? Gee, because I as a latino born here in the US knows too many Colombians, Venezuelans, Dominicans, Nicaraquans, Guatamalans, Mexicans, Costa Ricans, and others. They might strike a deal to make money, but if the Chinese start talking "revolucion" and about invading the US which is by the way to many of the poor in latin america the goose that lays the golden eggs, their agents will find out what Che Guevarra found out about messing around in their backyard."
I'll take this in small bites.
There is a progressive Anti-Yanqui movement occuring in South and Central America currently. Is it to the point of action listed here? No. But again as Miles said, "Baator of the dark, I'm not sure that you understand, but for many of us, working out the plausibility is fun. Now you brought up several good points (especially Operational security), but I have to say that many of them have already been discussed and (some) dealt with. So I, and I think the rest of the posters, would appreciate it if instead of attempting to kill our topic, that you contribute thoughtfully to it."
I'm very glad that you know peoples of those various countries. I personally feel that the more varied peoples you know the more diverse and varied you become. Usually this leads to being a better person. Enjoy your opportunity. BUT, there is an old saying that exists in that part of the world that goes something to the effect of, "The more you shake the American money tree, the more of its fruit will fall out of it." This is a current truth about American Foriegn policy in many parts of the world that lead to the "Immoral" view of the US. Can't say as I blame them. Thats how politics and sausage making are the same. You don't want to know what goes into them, you just want to enjoy the finished product.
Goose that lays golden eggs? Ask your friends, "What about more?" More for the familes of twenty living in a two bedroom apt. More for the vatos that will sell drogas, murder, or **** the oppressed to keep their own families from that situation. More for just about anything we here in the States enjoy on a daily basis and take for granted. That family of fifty Espinosas living down the street in the rain and waiting for the next mudslide have been waiting ALL THEIR LIVES. Revolucion? When man, when? I'm ready NOW!
Its early for me, but you know so I'll ask. What did Che Guevera find out? Aside from being sold out by people to better their own situation.
I'll get off my pedestal now.
Doug
Its early for me, but you know so I'll ask. What did Che Guevera find out? Aside from being sold out by people to better their own situation.
I don't have my various reference books where I can find them right now (they're buried in boxes somewhere). However, the short answer was that Che found out it is a very bad thing to believe your own PR to the extent that you disregard your own operational principles.
I forget which country he was killed in, but the gist of the story goes something like this:
He was making a big point of playing up the "land for the landless" angle. In a country where they had recently done a reasonable job of reform in that regard and most of the people in that area had their own small plot.
He had made a point to learn one of the Indian languages so he could talk to the people. To find out after he got there that he had studied the wrong language and couldn't talk to anybody.
Personally I think that if it had been me in that situation I would have called it quits and gone back to Cuba when those little factoids had been suitably impressed on me. Che, however, had a reputation to protect so he perservered.
Further bad news for Che was that the people as a whole were, if not largely supportive of their government, at least neutral/not torqued off about it. The army treated people reasonably well and enlisting in it was seen as one possible way that a young man could better himself. So army units operating in the area attempting to suppress Che were able to approach the populace to get reasonable amounts of information, whereas Che could not. This had the effect of standing normal guerilla techniques and tactics on their head.
Che did not possess good maps of the area and was never able to get the sort of native guides that he really needed. Furthermore, the way Che conducted his operations had a tendency to torque off the locals. He and his guys would go to some area and disturb the goats and other farm animals by simply conducting target practice. Farmer finds out he can't get the amount of milk he wants from his goats because Che and his group weren't willing to go into some other valley somewhere to practice and the next thing you know that farmer is complaining to the government about that revolutionary causing problems.
So the bottom line? Che believed his own hype too much and ended up getting what he richly deserved in the end.
Also, there's always been some kind of "anti-yanqui" movement in parts of latin america and there always will be. Envy is one of those things that come with the territory when you're the big dog on the block. But the point is aside from foot in the mouth disease Chavez and Castro few latin americans would go along some kind of "revolucion" anyway. Because even if they took out the US with Chinese help. Someone is gonna be the big dog sooner or later.
Yes Oggie, but thats usually only when there isn't a conflict at hand. The difference I think you're illustrating is a projected conflict not at home.
From Doc Rom
"One of which is that despite the rhetoric of a certain south american politician, the US is NOT the hated adversary to the north to the people of latin america as some would have us believe. How do I know? Gee, because I as a latino born here in the US knows too many Colombians, Venezuelans, Dominicans, Nicaraquans, Guatamalans, Mexicans, Costa Ricans, and others. They might strike a deal to make money, but if the Chinese start talking "revolucion" and about invading the US which is by the way to many of the poor in latin america the goose that lays the golden eggs, their agents will find out what Che Guevarra found out about messing around in their backyard."
I'll take this in small bites.
There is a progressive Anti-Yanqui movement occuring in South and Central America currently. Is it to the point of action listed here? No. But again as Miles said, "Baator of the dark, I'm not sure that you understand, but for many of us, working out the plausibility is fun. Now you brought up several good points (especially Operational security), but I have to say that many of them have already been discussed and (some) dealt with. So I, and I think the rest of the posters, would appreciate it if instead of attempting to kill our topic, that you contribute thoughtfully to it."
I'm very glad that you know peoples of those various countries. I personally feel that the more varied peoples you know the more diverse and varied you become. Usually this leads to being a better person. Enjoy your opportunity. BUT, there is an old saying that exists in that part of the world that goes something to the effect of, "The more you shake the American money tree, the more of its fruit will fall out of it." This is a current truth about American Foriegn policy in many parts of the world that lead to the "Immoral" view of the US. Can't say as I blame them. Thats how politics and sausage making are the same. You don't want to know what goes into them, you just want to enjoy the finished product.
Goose that lays golden eggs? Ask your friends, "What about more?" More for the familes of twenty living in a two bedroom apt. More for the vatos that will sell drogas, murder, or **** the oppressed to keep their own families from that situation. More for just about anything we here in the States enjoy on a daily basis and take for granted. That family of fifty Espinosas living down the street in the rain and waiting for the next mudslide have been waiting ALL THEIR LIVES. Revolucion? When man, when? I'm ready NOW!
Its early for me, but you know so I'll ask. What did Che Guevera find out? Aside from being sold out by people to better their own situation.
I'll get off my pedestal now.
Doug
When you're putting together a plausible scenario one should try to make it beleivable within the context of the game. In the case of a Chinese invasion of my country I would say the Chinese take advantage of a multifactional civil war in Russia and use said confusion to launch across the Bering Strait. That in play with some means of defusing our nukes is alot more believable than the Super Tankers and Revolucionarios scenario. :D
Yes Oggie, but thats usually only when there isn't a conflict at hand. The difference I think you're illustrating is a projected conflict not at home.
From Doc Rom
"One of which is that despite the rhetoric of a certain south american politician, the US is NOT the hated adversary to the north to the people of latin america as some would have us believe. How do I know? Gee, because I as a latino born here in the US knows too many Colombians, Venezuelans, Dominicans, Nicaraquans, Guatamalans, Mexicans, Costa Ricans, and others. They might strike a deal to make money, but if the Chinese start talking "revolucion" and about invading the US which is by the way to many of the poor in latin america the goose that lays the golden eggs, their agents will find out what Che Guevarra found out about messing around in their backyard."
I'll take this in small bites.
There is a progressive Anti-Yanqui movement occuring in South and Central America currently. Is it to the point of action listed here? No. But again as Miles said, "Baator of the dark, I'm not sure that you understand, but for many of us, working out the plausibility is fun. Now you brought up several good points (especially Operational security), but I have to say that many of them have already been discussed and (some) dealt with. So I, and I think the rest of the posters, would appreciate it if instead of attempting to kill our topic, that you contribute thoughtfully to it."
I'm very glad that you know peoples of those various countries. I personally feel that the more varied peoples you know the more diverse and varied you become. Usually this leads to being a better person. Enjoy your opportunity. BUT, there is an old saying that exists in that part of the world that goes something to the effect of, "The more you shake the American money tree, the more of its fruit will fall out of it." This is a current truth about American Foriegn policy in many parts of the world that lead to the "Immoral" view of the US. Can't say as I blame them. Thats how politics and sausage making are the same. You don't want to know what goes into them, you just want to enjoy the finished product.
Goose that lays golden eggs? Ask your friends, "What about more?" More for the familes of twenty living in a two bedroom apt. More for the vatos that will sell drogas, murder, or **** the oppressed to keep their own families from that situation. More for just about anything we here in the States enjoy on a daily basis and take for granted. That family of fifty Espinosas living down the street in the rain and waiting for the next mudslide have been waiting ALL THEIR LIVES. Revolucion? When man, when? I'm ready NOW!
Its early for me, but you know so I'll ask. What did Che Guevera find out? Aside from being sold out by people to better their own situation.
I'll get off my pedestal now.
Doug
Thats why we're scripting this out.Doug
Probably the first real sign of how he was slipping, too.
Oggie
http://fullcoverage.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061003/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_military_training_3;_ylt=AoNonIFTUvRaTD_Pkzb5mrJsbEwB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
and this:
http://www.economist.com/world/la/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3521240
and this:
http://www.dogpile.com/info.dogpl/clickit/search?r_aid=C2B5AD6F1A1A409EBFC8E6CB0D501720&r_eop=2&r_sacop=4&r_spf=0&r_cop=main-title&r_snpp=2&r_spp=2&qqn=1E6%270mCA&r_coid=239138&rawto=http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/articleview/712/1/78/
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/news/jdw/jdw010612_1_n.shtml
Is pretty cool, a FAV with a 23mm cannon.. that's a pretty heavy A attached to that F.
I think boeing cant really claim the terms describing the chain driven cycling of the action. The capitolized ChainGun is boeing's, and the phrase 23mm chain gun isnt spoken english propper, unless the gun fires chain.... and these are not Pirates of the Carribean sail&rope wreckers. Chain driven gun, chain drive gun, chain action gun, some thing like that cant be gobbled up by Boeing.
Didnt GE put a chain in a gun first? Or is the relavent factor the bolt cam is on the chain rather than against the ramps???? I dunno.
Razor-
maybe it is very powerful, but maybe it is a 23x39mm neck-up of the AK brass
20s came in a ton of flavors
Can we sue Boeing, cause I've seen what comes out their so called "ChainGun", and it aint chain at all, its bullets...... clearly false advertizing ;) :P
*thinks about stating that gun*
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/U.S.%3B_China_has_provided_military_aid_and_training_to_Venezuela
Problem #1: Australia is big. Factor in enormous supply lines if you want to pacify the outback.
Problem #2: Australia is dry. The interior is sparsely populated. You need the aforementioned supply line to keep troops fed and machines fuelled. There just aren't that many easily requisitioned resources to grab on the march.
Problem #3: The Australian Army, though not altogether large, is very well trained. They are just as adept at fighting in the jungles of the North as the semi-arid inland (due to the fact that they train in all those areas). And they wouldn't stand to hold the Indonesians back so much as fall back while making the Indonesians really pay for every kilometre.
Problem #4: The SAS. You don't want to mess with them. While the army is hurting the Indonesian armed forces, any high ranking officers who ventured out to see what was going on would die. Really.
And Problem #5: The Kiwis. They would provide an entire armed force as well as a lovely staging point for any outside assistance from just across the Tasman.
Oh, and Tasmania itself would make for a fallback point; interesting parallels could be made with Britain in early WW2.
Of course, if the Indonesians really wanted to invade us, while they may not succeed, it would be a while before that became truly evident. It would cost a lot of lives (hopefully more on their side, but I do think we'd run out of Indonesians before we ran out of bullets) and more importantly for a "China invades USA" game, it would take Australia out of that equation.
Mind you, once the Aussie/Kiwi alliance did push the Indonesians back to where they came from, they might just decide to head on over and lend a discreet hand here and there on the US mainland.
(The ADF, SAS included, were among the only fighting forces to take zero casualties during either Iraq war. They also handed out zero friendly fire casualties...)
I like the idea and its going to be my next campaign... with a bit of world tweaking first.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/5324915.html
Now if this were to go the Ford's Military Vehicle Factory direction like in WWII...
Proxy War on boys,
Doug
This thread is still around?
OOoooh, look... my Chaingun joke... so this is where I first typed it.
and there is Razore...
what happened to Good Ole Razoreface?
have you ever read the book by Tom Clancy: "The Bear and the Dragon"? It is a great book, and it consists of the russians finding brand new resources, and the chinese invading to get them, its really great, you should look into it, as it has a few chapters where there are chinese tactics being discussed, and the best way to combat them (I know it is fiction, but it is useable fiction) Hope that helps.
I don't know why there's so much impossibility thrown at it... yeah it would be hard. Yes, it would take a lot of training. And a lot of resources. And a lot of money. And a lot of time. And a lot of lying. And a lot of luck. It's an invasion. Only presidents think that an invasion would actually be easy to accomplish.
But there are also so many freighters in the world that nobody is capable of watching every single one, or knowing what's on most of them. If the US knew what was on every ship, everywhere, they wouldn't need port customs to inspect and confirm incoming cargo... there are enough ships in completely private hands that the freighters themselves are actually a pretty small obstacle. They could even use plain old container ships, and modify the containers to carry troops and materiel instead of the ship itself. That would be even worse... a dozen ships could sail in and have their containers unloaded, because containers often sit around for several days before being looked at at all, and once they're all sitting around stacked in the port, then they could all open at once.
Big ports have a lot of freighters coming in and out. Vancouver's container port handles an average of 2,800 containers per day. That's a lot of ships. If you have six ships leave a port in one day, nobody's going to notice. That's normal. How do they cross the Pacific? Well, they drive. Big freighters can sail quite a bit further than the Pacific is wide without refueling. They're good that way. A cargo ship that runs out of fuel isn't too useful.
It's a long sail across the Pacific, too. Lots of time for soldiers to sit around, or to practice ship evac drills for when they land in ports, and rush out. Which isn't terribly hard, since you can look at basically any port in the world on Google, and ports are designed to make it easy for goods to flow in and out. Much of a labrynth and those 53' trailers are going to have a rough time, and your goods aren't going to move too fast.
Disposable force.. well, the Chinese haven't always been very against that in the past, have they? They land a force they basically consider a write-off, since it largely would be over several months, and then the rather ancient fleet of actual warships sets sail... and likely spends quite a bit of time at the bottom of the Pacific once they get halfway to Hawai'i, and I'd honestly be surprised if any of them even saw Pearl.
And of course, the Chinese would likely be pretty aware they're going to face counter attacks.. I'm pretty sure that the Chinese are aware of the Doolittle raid, since China is where they landed afterward. And of course China might happen to prepare for a counter attack. It wouldn't come off like a zergling rush that leaves China completely undefended. Even though a nuclear strike is honestly quite unlikely unless the Chinese very foolishly do something that would provoke it, a conventional counter attack would happen, likely very quickly from forces normally posted in the Middle East.
The landing itself would look like a much larger modern version of D-Day.. true and utter chaos, units all over the place with no real idea what's going on, and many without a really specific idea of where they are, or how to get where they were supposed to be.
Really, I've put a good... three and a half, maybe even four hours of thought into this. I've got a fair idea of the obstacles and downsides. I've never said, and wouldn't say, that it would be a very successful invasion. I'm quite certain that in the long term it would be doomed to fail. But it also is plausible.
And really.. maybe even four whole hours. That's a lot of thinking time, for me.
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but one idea that jumped up at me is this scenario: The Chinese launch their massive invasion, which means a majority of their military is at sea or participating in the invasion. NATO and the UN dither as they tend to do; threats by international powers fly while US citizens are dying, possibly Canadians as well. The US says screw it, and launches an immediate decisive nuclear strike against China. Mushroom clouds around Beijing, Harbin, Lanzhou, Chongqing, etc. In nearly an instant, millions of Chinese lie dead, industries destroyed, society in chaos. The Chinese forces that are part of the invasion forces now have choices to make: return home, try to help their wounded country; be wracked with vengeance and try to kill as many of the enemy as possible regardless of cost; simply surrender.
What about the forces who are on the way? Most of their command and control has been wiped out...do they turn around? Continue on their way? Request sanctuary in a friendly port, if any exist?
The whole "Storming the Beaches" thing is not necessary when they can infiltrate mass quantites of men and materials through the "auto industry" contacts currently in Mexico and South and Central America.
This page is full of fodder for this game.
http://www.chinatoday.com/
Enjoy,
Doug
BTW, I love your sig.;)
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but one idea that jumped up at me is this scenario: The Chinese launch their massive invasion, which means a majority of their military is at sea or participating in the invasion. NATO and the UN dither as they tend to do; threats by international powers fly while US citizens are dying, possibly Canadians as well. The US says screw it, and launches an immediate decisive nuclear strike against China. Mushroom clouds around Beijing, Harbin, Lanzhou, Chongqing, etc. In nearly an instant, millions of Chinese lie dead, industries destroyed, society in chaos. The Chinese forces that are part of the invasion forces now have choices to make: return home, try to help their wounded country; be wracked with vengeance and try to kill as many of the enemy as possible regardless of cost; simply surrender.
What about the forces who are on the way? Most of their command and control has been wiped out...do they turn around? Continue on their way? Request sanctuary in a friendly port, if any exist?
but it still would be a hoot to watch those hydrofoil rocket cargo ships hit the beach & blow the bow..... well, till they start killing us, then the fun factor drops rapidly.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/18/world/main2373598.shtml
YMMV,
Doug
Now, in response to the Aussie who posted way back when about an Indonesian invasion of Australia: Why not incorporate it? We just have to figure out a reason why Indonesia would side with China.
And to add in the fun, there could be a big ol' Muslim rebellion in Europe; that'd keep the Europeans busy.
Edit: Also, I think we should rule out a nuclear strike. It just takes away all the fun.
Why on earth would we do that?
"Oh, pardon my forgetfulness, I failed to set this 4 Billion Euro check on your desk. I deeply apologize"
Oh, I see... well... that does present a hard arguement in your favor, doesnt it my new friend.
"Indeed, Comrade"
So, just when shall we invade the Aussies, Comrade
Now, lots of people underestimate China, but it actually has a pretty firm position in the world, and its only getting stronger as the years go by. They also have some pretty good trade with the Middle East, along with all those future deals they have planned for South America. If the US were to have just a few more political or international debacles eventually they might wind up with almost no allies, which would leave them with few allies to assist them. If China could get all of their allies to help in an invasion, not a lot of countries would even try to stop an invasion(that is, if the United States lost most of its military capability by the time the invasion started).
Technology-wise, they're not that far behind the US, and they have far more soldiers and resources, and have already launched a missile at their own satellites. The only problem is the Pacific Ocean, and the fact that they're not really near what they'd need "currently". So if you manage to get them all over to the US through shipping, and had a full-scale sneak attack going on, with communication satellites being destroyed, it would be pretty plausible.
Then again, you could just have it look like the US did something to aggravate the Chinese, so that the rest of the world becomes hesitant of getting in their way.
As for Russia helping the US, they've already sided with Iran in current world affairs, and haven't really done much for the US. If they did help, it probably wouldn't be that much, unless they themselves had something to gain from it. Possibly stopping China from becoming stronger, or taking advantage of them during a time of weakness.
That document, in the section about armored warfare alone, states that the backbone of Chinese armored forces is the Type 59, which is equivalent to the T-54. Considering that Coalition forces ate up T-62s and T-72s in the First Persian Gulf War, T-54s would be handled hard. I will be the first to concede that China is getting better technology; regardless, though, for the current day, China is technologically behind. In the hypothetical scenario we're brewing up, though, that may not hold true; truth be told, I would be a fan of China having a secret genetic engineering program to unleash hordes of moreau troops, but that's me.
2.) China's nuclear missiles can't devastate the continental US categorically. It appears as if they can hit Alaska, and a bit of the West Coast; their single Xia-class boomer is a notoriously noisy SSBN, and the missiles on it don't have the range to hit DC from any point in the globe; the Golf-class boomer is most likely the same.
Again, currently China is lagging in technological development; however, they are trying rather hard to modernize, which is one of the reasons why I'm a Sinophobe. In any case, though, I do agree with you that a US nuclear counterstrike would be 1.) Lame, 2.) Politically unsound, and 3.) Lame. By lame, i mean "doesn't add much to the scenario in terms of enjoyment".
In any case, I have to get going, as I have a Christmas party to attend. Everybody has to bring a book for a grab-bag kinda thing, and I'm giving the Zombie Survival Guide.
Thanks Guys this made my night
Heck, up north a bit they could swing thru Berkely and them kids will form a human shield to protect the chinese as they attack US Government Forces
Heck, up north a bit they could swing thru Berkely and them kids will form a human shield to protect the chinese as they attack US Government Forces
Bah hahahaha. How true.
You do raise a good point about T-54s being just fine for knocking around police cruisers. I raised the point that the Chinese are mostly armed with 1950s-era Soviet technology to highlight that they don't have any real sort of technological edge.
...their single Xia-class boomer is a notoriously noisy SSBN, and the missiles on it don't have the range to hit DC from any point in the globe;
Even the Potomac? ;)
Yeah, I know what you meant...
It is my understanding that China is mainly set up to keep their neighbors in line; military powerhouses like Burma, Laos and Vietnam. I imagine their top-line stuff is arranged to keep the Russia-China border right where it is.
A problem with having a huge army is getting it to act as one huge army, not 10 large armies. The PLA must have an immense command and control network to manage their forces.
The USAF is very good at finding and destroying C&C facilities.
Communist militaries also tend to minimize innovation in their field grade officers. This makes it likely that if comms go down, the commanders down the line will obediently wait for the Sgt on the motorbike to hand deliver orders. To be honest, they also tend to have highly detailed plans for every little option, but Sgt Fan would still have to drive up and tell Col Wong to execute plan 12345.
I am _definitely_ not saying the PLA would be a pushover after a few stealth missions, but I think a lot of their numerical advantages could be neutralized by making it harder for the batallions to get orders from Beijing.
Its got a Yuri's Revenge feel to it. Heh.
Conscription None
Available for military service 342,956,265 males, age 18-49 (2005 est.),
324,701,244 females, age 18-49 (2005 est.)
Fit for military service 281,240,272 males, age 18-49 (2005 est.),
269,025,517 females, age 18-49 (2005 est.)
Reaching military age annually 13,186,433 males (2005 est.),
12,298,149 females (2005 est.)
Active personnel 2,250,000[2] (ranked 1st)
Reserve personnel 800,000[2]
Deployed personnel Overseas: None[2]
Paramilitary: 3,969,000[2]
Total: 7,024,000[2] (ranked 3rd)
Expenditures
Budget $44.94 billion (2007 est.) (ranked 6th)
Percent of GDP 1.7 (2007 est.)
thats a lot of numbers to deal with all estimated obviously but i'd say it sounds half right
ed 209 is pretty accurate with his statement that the chain is rigid is also a fair assesment of the power structure we've seen in similar countries and regimes. its a by product of having to deal with such high numbers and a centrally based autocratic leadership.
Excellent point, trap.
Howza 'bout letting the rest of the kids here understand whatever it is your talking about. I don't understand what that means for this China thread.
Latest one for this thread from today's news.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/BUSINESS/12/09/china.iran.ap/index.html
Enjoy,
Doug
Military age 18-49 (voluntary)
Conscription None
Available for military service 342,956,265 males, age 18-49 (2005 est.),
324,701,244 females, age 18-49 (2005 est.)
Fit for military service 281,240,272 males, age 18-49 (2005 est.),
269,025,517 females, age 18-49 (2005 est.)
Reaching military age annually 13,186,433 males (2005 est.),
12,298,149 females (2005 est.)
Active personnel 2,250,000[2] (ranked 1st)
Reserve personnel 800,000[2]
Deployed personnel Overseas: None[2]
Paramilitary: 3,969,000[2]
Total: 7,024,000[2] (ranked 3rd)
Expenditures
Budget $44.94 billion (2007 est.) (ranked 6th)
Percent of GDP 1.7 (2007 est.)
thats a lot of numbers to deal with all estimated obviously but i'd say it sounds half right
ed 209 is pretty accurate with his statement that the chain is rigid is also a fair assesment of the power structure we've seen in similar countries and regimes. its a by product of having to deal with such high numbers and a centrally based autocratic leadership.
Hey is that US forces or China?
I always wanted my Players to Imagine a chinese tank come around the corner of building and just roll over a squad car, the cop jumps out and gets gunned down by the Gunner.
Chineses troops come into the US,the same way that Soviet troops went into Afghanastan, via commercial air liners....and the4n you know secure the airports and then move on form there
Anyway whose to say they couldnt sneak a Battalion of Units into New York, Los Angeles, and Miami? Small Guerilla units to Distract law enforcement just long enough for a insertion force to touch down. Military Activity would take a few hours. Reservists units would take mabey 12 hours to gear up and ready themselves. and a well placed Tactical Nuke could really F*** up a counter attack even on our soil. But its ok The Marines would do their Job.
uh, once you involve the Chinese Invasion, wouldnt the war no longer be Civil?
True, but the economic, political and military chaos associated with a US civil war could facilitate enough exposure for a Sino-Russian invasion to be more plausible.
No seriously, check it out...it really has a lot of stuff usable with D20 Modern (not statted out of course, but the ideas it generates are endless).
The try of invading USA would be, in the best of cases, a pyrrhic victory, because the cost would be too high, too. If Tibet give them too problem, then againts the supreme power.....
Who would be the ally of Chine? Cuba, Venezuela, North Corea and some one more like Vietnam and company. About Russia, I don´t like Putin, and I don´t trust in him, but if China attacks USA then Russia would feel menaced, perhaps to be not the next of the list (after Sourth Corea, Japan and Taiwan, of course). Although Chinese invaders win the first battles in West Coast the later occupation would be very, very, very hard.
If China send its troops through Pacific Ocean would be too vulnerable so long journeys. The weakening by war would be higher in China as USA. And don´t let´s forgert Chinese people would be demoralized before because they don´t love their rulers.
And why Massive Destrution Weapon wouldn´t be used? Perhaps because USA has Jack Bauer, Chuck Norris and company.
I think China in our real world prefer wining the battle of ideas, with the propaganda, the pshicological war. It´s better "buying" enemy that defeating with armys. Chine rulers want their land would be a great multinational corporation of "capitalism of state", winning the Cold War with economy instead of weapon.
My advice is 100% fictional worlds (like Teah from 7th Sea rpg) to doing that class of campaings. The Game Master/Creator then has more creative freedom, and it´s more policaly correct if the evil empire is of a fictional races like orcs, hobgoblins or githyankis.
Also, LC, the entire thread wasn't about IF China would invade the US, but how they could conceivably do it in a game of d20 Modern. So, you know, the players can have fun with that campaign.
Or have you seen the saga of videogame Metal Slug? There weren´t factions from real world but I was useful. Some manga or animes is based in fictional worlds in modern age.
(And I would like having a WotC d20M scoucerbook about stats of military vehicules of all class, better if it´s about G.I.Joe and Cobra).
I´m sorry if I haven´t suspession of incredulity.
At this point there are no psionics or magic in our game, but we haven't ruled out a bit of gene tweaking.;)
if we are talking magic now,
my landingcraft made from SuperCargo Conversion with RocketBoost Hydroplane & BlowOff-Bow starts to make a lot more sense.
but that ain't ever gonna happen you couldn't martial a force large enough and get it close enough without giving the game away.
even if they did invade, ameriaca is gun land just like iraq and the populace would busy themselves making IED's and ambushing patrols etc.
then their supply chain would be so long and vulnerable it wouldn't be feasable.
basically america would be a 50/50 split if that between china and the usa then the uk would casually stroll over and sever the supply chain.
thats if the usa just didn't wipe out bejing wi a nuke and force china to sue for peace lest they loose a major city a day until they give up which to be honest is what the usa would do.
all those figures i posted are china, they got a lot. the obvious flaw in invading the states is the same as iraq you could invade easilly with the element of surprise.
but that ain't ever gonna happen you couldn't martial a force large enough and get it close enough without giving the game away.
This is a VERY BIG ISSUE. Where do the Opfor assemble before the action? You do some of these, http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n2373598.shtml, and you launch your action.
even if they did invade, america is gun land just like iraq and the populace would busy themselves making IED's and ambushing patrols etc.
then their supply chain would be so long and vulnerable it wouldn't be feasable.
More Red Dawn action. Lots of fodder for adventures here. This is where the Opfor relies on the developed infrastructure in these South American countries. Railways are the new convenience that are being built in many of these countries.
basically america would be a 50/50 split if that between china and the usa then the uk would casually stroll over and sever the supply chain.
This is my one conflicting point here. I'm certain that the UK would have their hands full of some sort of fortified animosity. You don't poke the eye of one of the biggest kids on the block and expect to get away with it. China would make sure they have "party pleasers" for the rest of the gaggle of US allies (meaning anyone that got bullied into being with "Us against Them" would be a potential target.
thats if the usa just didn't wipe out bejing with a nuke and force china to sue for peace lest they loose a major city a day until they give up which to be honest is what the usa would do.
The evolution of Gunboat Diplomacy or regurgitation of a horrible WW2 successfull tactic. The concept to think about is "What if those satellites knocked out had a crippling effect on the target system of the warhead?"
Another concept regarding Australia is the nuclear bombardment of the central lands and deploying the Opfor to the coastal areas and pushing the masses inward...
Magic aside, I think BackStabbists idea of SuperCargo Conversion with RocketBoost Hydroplane & BlowOff-Bow would be very actionable. With zero Satellite Intelligence, this is MUCH MORE FEASIBLE to accomplish. Send in the "advance party" as local factory workers to prep landing areas and wait for the show to start. This could be where the characters get notice of asian affiliated groups securing certain strategic beaches and warehouse/dock areas.
Luis Carlos,
You have some good ideas. Start a thread with them and I'd love to discuss them there. Let's keep this one concerning the Chinese Invasion.
Doug
Drive a supertanker full of oil up to San Fransico,
and threaten to burst your own ship to pollute the ocean, killing all the seagulls & sealions. They will surrender the entire bay area without firing a shot (lest they accidently rupture your oiltanker & cause what they are trying to avoid). After a lengthy indoctrination peroid to become completely programmed to the invaders ways ( have them watch a 95min movie to make solidify their hate for america) the city cops & populace will be backing the chinese invaders
..................................(end sarcasm).......................................................
Recently, Bitter Thorn and I were discussing a tie in to this campaign. It involved a failing govt that was losing control and was "exploring options". The power base vaguely resembled the electoral "red/blue" states. I hope he won't mind me posting this part:
Did you have any particular Red/Blue maps you were partial to? I could possibly see the "increasingly despotic federal government" cutting some kind of deal, ala UN style, with the ever present Chinese presence to help "restore order" and ensue in "peace keeping " missions.
Many folks out there now detest the concept of a UN Peace Keeping force to EVER deploy in the states. There was an event recently where either Ecuador or Colombia had asked to have a Military facility, and be operated by said force, in the state of Florida.
This part could be a side campaign later on or it could be the original event that invited the Dragon to the western hemisphere to begin with.
Thanks to Bitter Thorn and his military spouse friend,
Doug
Consider this,
if 12million illegal aliens are here now by just walking across the border,
china could just put this on the 10 year plan (converting supercargos covertly takes time) and all the while have their infantry just pay the coyotes to walk/drive platoons across at a time. The US will then have 20million illegals, of which 8million will be chinese comandos....
8million 'illegal' commandos
armed with just a 9mm and 2magazines,
waiting for 11:35am on a certain day 9 years from now,
walk outside & shoot 20 people each all over the US,
tieing up the cops all over the country just 1hour before the CargoConversions hit the beaches.
The cops & ems will be spread so thin the invaders will blitz right thru to Vegas & Tahoe, where (in my twisted views) they will all mass defect to live the capitolist sweet life in Sin City.
"Welcome to Vegas, boys... dames & free liquor are over there, heres a stack of chips to get you started, and we'll comp you a buffet... just throw the uniforms & guns over there & hop into some swim trunks, they blondes are waiting by the pool."
This one could explain why Weapon of Massive Destruction (WMD) wouldn´t be used. If invander are using a interdimensional gate then the missiles couldn´t be launched to enemy bases because the localitation of each target is unkown.
Other option is soldiers are living constructs, like warforged from Eberron or cylons from the remake of Galactica Battlestar, a bit from Borgs of Star Treck, and phalanx from Marvel Comics). Let´s imagine it, Terminator-like droids in your city.
A zombie plague? Too seen. Better mutant werewolf soldiers, who were created with secret experiments by Third Reich (but nothing about silvers bullets, a grenade with a great boum, or a flamethrower is enough).
Perhaps comunist invaders stolen secret alien technology (like with Megatron in transformers movie). Then it would be a bit of flavor of "war of the worlds" (by H.G. Wells).
Well, Peacekeeping forces, or defensive forces on US soil would greatly facilitate the invasion.... Once they establish the Chinese Embasy needs a 75000 troop Embasy Security Detail, we deserve what we will get coming. Add to that about 50k of ~former~ chinese military 'civilian' Product Safety Assurement agents (investigating the progress of the poisoning of US population with lead). One day they all happen to gather up in about just 15 cities & Presto! They have an Light Infantry Division occupying force overnight owning big populations.
Toy Lead Paint tie in. That rocks. This could also diversify itself into any products coming in from China. It would justify the thousand of QA folks SHOWING UP AT A PORT NEAR YOU!!
Consider this,
if 12million illegal aliens are here now by just walking across the border,
china could just put this on the 10 year plan (converting supercargos covertly takes time) and all the while have their infantry just pay the coyotes to walk/drive platoons across at a time. The US will then have 20million illegals, of which 8million will be chinese comandos....
I keep forgetting you live near the border also. For the rest of the class, a "Coyote" in this sense is a experienced guide that is aware of the various trails that lead into the US from Mexico.
8million 'illegal' commandos
armed with just a 9mm and 2magazines,
waiting for 11:35am on a certain day 9 years from now,
walk outside & shoot 20 people each all over the US,
tieing up the cops all over the country just 1hour before the CargoConversions hit the beaches.
This is horribly simple. I keep seeing "Cho's Revenge" here. (yes, Cho was Korean student in Virginia but that really doesn't matter here.) And it also allows for the party to possibly detect a "sleeper cell" some time before the event.
The cops & ems will be spread so thin the invaders will blitz right thru to Vegas & Tahoe, where (in my twisted views) they will all mass defect to live the capitolist sweet life in Sin City.
Why stop there?
well,
if we are talking magic now,
my landingcraft made from SuperCargo Conversion with RocketBoost Hydroplane & BlowOff-Bow starts to make a lot more sense.
of holding perhaps?
I digress....
That's a disappointing (possibly accurate?) view of the LeftCoast. I'm certain that country's ambassador, from Berkley, would chastise you to appreciate the plight of the various endangered reef systems there. It's incredibly taxing to churn such DEEPLY cultured and concerned citizens for the benefit of the rest of the US. Salt farms are a very important part of the economy, too. We we're also victims of Al Qaeda with their fire starting the scorched the bottom part of our country also.
..................................(end sarcasm).......................................................
Recently, Bitter Thorn and I were discussing a tie in to this campaign. It involved a failing govt that was losing control and was "exploring options". The power base vaguely resembled the electoral "red/blue" states. I hope he won't mind me posting this part:
Did you have any particular Red/Blue maps you were partial to? I could possibly see the "increasingly despotic federal government" cutting some kind of deal, ala UN style, with the ever present Chinese presence to help "restore order" and ensue in "peace keeping " missions.
Many folks out there now detest the concept of a UN Peace Keeping force to EVER deploy in the states. There was an event recently where either Ecuador or Colombia had asked to have a Military facility, and be operated by said force, in the state of Florida.
This part could be a side campaign later on or it could be the original event that invited the Dragon to the western hemisphere to begin with.
Thanks to Bitter Thorn and his military spouse friend,
Doug
We've just been fed various reports that there has been a violent seizure of multiple border towns all along the US / Mexico border. All of the fighting so far has been contained on the Mexico side of the border. We have unconfirmed reports that this is the work of a local Mexican drug lord trying to establish his territory.
The Mexican Administration has offered no official statement to this situation as they are still suffering from the damage of from saboteurs that were able to infiltrate the capitol building yesterday. An anonymous Mexican Official has only offered that this unfortunate event will be controlled by the local federal police force and any military presence on the border should be interpreted as an attempt to help the police force contain this effort.
They would like to remind the good intentioned neighbors to the north that they have removed barriers between the military and police force and that this might be their own "Waco". They would like to contain this issue before it inflames the rest of the mexican populace.
In other news, Jim Thornton on his coverage of MS-13 and the militaristic takeover of turf on the California coastline with a surprising nod from local Police Departments. I'm Grant Hicks.........
We interrupt your regular programming to bring you this news from the border. I'm Grant Hicks and we are following up on a previous story that happened not a few hours ago. http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/01/11/border.fire/index.html
We've just been fed various reports that there has been a violent seizure of multiple border towns all along the US / Mexico border. All of the fighting so far has been contained on the Mexico side of the border. We have unconfirmed reports that this is the work of a local Mexican drug lord trying to establish his territory.
The Mexican Administration has offered no official statement to this situation as they are still suffering from the damage of from saboteurs that were able to infiltrate the capitol building yesterday. An anonymous Mexican Official has only offered that this unfortunate event will be controlled by the local federal police force and any military presence on the border should be interpreted as an attempt to help the police force contain this effort.
They would like to remind the good intentioned neighbors to the north that they have removed barriers between the military and police force and that this might be their own "Waco". They would like to contain this issue before it inflames the rest of the mexican populace.
In other news, Jim Thornton on his coverage of MS-13 and the militaristic takeover of turf on the California coastline. I'm Grant Hicks.........
thats cool
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/01/11/kucinich-calls-for-new-hampshire-recount/#more-4386
Normally this event would not garnish any more attention than the 2000 Election, but this time it has a few twists involved. There are various unconfirmed reports that the representative's camp had recently came into possession a list of financial documents that has "severe far reaching" implications in Congress, the Stock Exchange, and the War on Terrorism in multiple overseas areas.
How this information came into possession and the timing of it is unclear. When the subject of gaining the alleged financial documents in relation to the death of candidates brother arose, senior staffers only offered "No Comment".
The representative was not available for questioning.
This is Heidi Marlene with N2A, the Network News Agency covering the latest from New Hampshire. Are you N2 it?
In what appears to be, as 62 year old Rosemary Ysidras from the Oakland area puts it, the difference of turning a switch on. Last week, she needed to keep all four of the deadbolts locked on her door and as of yesterday she stayed out to watch the sun sink into the ocean. That was something that she says she hasn’t been able to do in thirty years. She says it was because of the love she had provided to the community has finally made it back. You see, Rosemary was very active with a local community outreach center before the neighborhood became ridden with gangs and crime. Now she’s very happy to see all the little grownup boys and girls of the outreach center comeback to the community. They’ve gotten rid of all the graffiti, trash, broken lights, wandering hoodlums, the homeless have stopped coming around, and even drug dealers are not heard of in her Oakland community.
Oakland PD still continue patrol the streets of this once war torn barrio but now most calls responded to are of domestic nature, noise complaints, and any multitude of traffic violations. It seems that all the “action” has ventured east towards bigger metropolis cities leaving Oakland PD to readdress training issues, department maintenance, and long awaited vacation time.
Rosemary even had her flat tire changed earlier today by a couple of MS-13 members when a piece of road debris had punctured a tire down by the wharf district. And if that piece of luck wasn’t enough, when arriving home she found a bed of freshly planted chrysanthemums in front of her house and others on her street. There were a couple female MS-13 members that greeted her on her arrival home.
All my little children have come home, Rosemary claims with tears of joy in her eyes.
Be sure to tune in later for our own Field correspondent "Charlie" Andrews and his continuing coverage of this Administration's Middle East Peace Mission. I’m Jim Thornton with N2A, the Network News Agency you’re into.
The President has a few more visits on this trip to the area and is looking to wrap it up at the end of the week tentatively
In other news, efforts to quell fears and reassure the American economy that Chinese exports are safe for the marketplace, the President had a side teleconference with various Chinese officials to establish a Product Analysis Team to confirm safety regarding lead paint and other claims. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2007-09/12/content_6100558.htm This team is still in the planning phase but it is rumored to be at least a couple hundred various techs, manufacturers, and operators of Mobile Testing Stations. China has made mention of other services that might be able to happen during this visit, but want to focus on securing work zones that are in the widest affected areas.
I’m Charlie Andrews with N2A, the Network News Agency you’re into.
I'm following up on previous story that our Field Correspondent Grant Hicks had been covering. Unfortunately his convoy was caught in a surprise firefight yesterday and so far the situation brewing on the other side of has been contained but not resolved. We have been unable to come into contact with him. Our hopes and prayers are with them....
The Mexican Administration has assured the US that they are doing everything in their power to guarantee this situation not spill over the border. They are calling up more troops and deploying to the affected areas in the northern states of Sonora, Chihuahua, Coahuila, Nuevo Leon, and Tamaulipas.
Mexican Officials, who wished to remain anonymous, stated that they wanted to resolve this embarrassing issue before the President returned from his overseas trip to the Mid East.
I'm Travis Martin for Grant Hicks of N2A, the Network News you're into.
While in the states, these techs and manufacturers will conduct product testing, warranty services, color medium and material determinations for toxicity, and product exchanges for like items with non-toxic color or materials. The product testing of suspicious items is FREE TO THE PUBLIC at various Product Safety Centers. Each Product Safety Centers will also have available compatible products for serviced items like electronics and appliances to name a few. Also starting at each Product Safety Centers is a Customer Service Department that will help you maintain the life of your recorded purchases and even discounted delivery services for the bigger items of your life.
Because of the projected volume of goods and services needed to accomplish this agreement, so far these Product Safety Centers are only going to be available in coastal cities with a seaport. The list of cities on the east coast so far look like: Jacksonville FL, Norfolk VA, New York NY, and Boston MA. On the west coast: San Diego CA, Long Beach CA, San Francisco CA, Portland OR, and Seattle WA. Down south its gonna be: Corpus Christi TX, Galveston TX, and New Orleans LA. I’m certain those folks in New Orleans certainly appreciate having some good luck for a change.
I know I get to have my wide screen fixed and that’s good enough fer me! This is Heidi Marlene N2A, the Network News Agency. What are you N2?
*****************************BUZZZZZZZZ***********************************
We have no other contacts available as a majority of the American news teams were already on the plane with the President and so far no foreign news teams have not came forward with any film footage. We will be following up throughout the day on this National Crisis.
I’m just now told that both Houses are in the process of convening an emergency session on the Hill and we will be bringing you updates from that as well.
Also, the first of the Chinese superfreighters have arrived in the States and we have received condolences and pledged support from their government in this crisis.
wow…. I’m Heidi Marlene. N2A news….. wow…………
We’re looking at the stories all over the world but the ones leading the frontlines in America are: Air Force One Shot Down Over Egypt, No Survivors Found Yet; American Embassies and Military Posts Locked Down and on highest level of alert; Congressman Calls for VP Impeachment (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/24/AR2007042401542.html) during Emergency Session and then Publicizes Financial Records, Capitol Hill stunned; Major Fluctuations of KBR stock and other World Market ripples; Egyptian Prime Minister Struggles With Provincial Security Around Crash Site.
We’re into that and a whole lot more when we come back at the top of the hour. I’m Jim Thornton in this truly historic moment at N2A, your Network News Agency.
United States Military moves to occupy Egyptian Airport for duration of investigation to protect against looting and contamination of evidence amid strenuous protests and outrage from host nation. Also, numerous Ronald Reagan Halloween rubber masks were found around the Air Force One Egyptian Crash Site at launch sites during investigation.
Americans are slowly boycotting most business out of Texas and anything to do with KBR / Halliburton. These initial reports coming out since the financial report of KBR / Halliburton were made public. Financial experts are having conflicting views that http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/21/news/international/world_markets.ap/index.htm?cnn=yes has anything to do with this.
China is setting up for business on both coasts and the gulf coast and soon the mid-west. Each Product Safety Center appears to be a large prefabricated steel building and they are also moving large construction vehicles to assist with the effort.
Americans from all over are starting the collective chant of Vote Now for a new elected leader. Both Houses of Congress are struggling to maintain some sense of control but instances of violence between representatives are progressively becoming more common. Junior representatives from Congress and the House have started chanting MESA RANCH (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=851206&page=2&highlight=mesa+ranch) on both floors and the Secretary of Defense would like everyone to know that he is still in charge.
A slow trickle of Mexicans is starting to leave the country sensing a growing animosity from the Americans over the border incursions, overall anti-American sentiment from various countries all over the world for the situation in Egypt and this story as well (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/01/18/canada.torture.list.ap/index.html) and a now troubled economy from the news that rocked the Capitol.
I'm Travis Martin with N2A, the Network News you're into.
There is Regional Outrage at the US for its occupation of a major Egyptian airport. The US claims that its efforts are to protect against looting and contamination of evidence but says Egypt isn’t containing its citizens. Egypt acknowledges the state of American affairs but insists on having a fully functional airport that is vital to its economy. Other nations are filing complaints with the UN.
The State Department is also investigating a series of taped confessions appearing on the file sharing website called SeenHere.com. All of the approximately twenty confessions show various groups of individuals, possibly of eastern descent, that are claiming to have shot down Air Force One and are wearing shirts that claim the same. There is no word from the State Department on these findings because of the ongoing investigation in Egypt. So far, none of the surrounding nations have forwarded any film footage of the attack.
In other news, American tourists are being redirected to American installations all over the world and in some cases being forcibly deported back to the US. The State Department is claiming that this is for the safety of its citizens but some of the nations involved in doing this claimed not to have made any coordination with any US agency. They say that it is in response to what might be credible threats to downing civilian aircraft by a terrorist organization phoning in these demands. The terrorist organization is claiming any aircraft that holds US citizens will be shot down. Because the “terrorists” have not made any other demands, some nations are considering such a restriction.
The Boston division of China’s Product Safety Center came into the news today when it detected and assisted local firefighters at a blaze (http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/15100245/detail.html) and pledged technical support as needed to the city planners for a rebuilding effort.
On the Hill today, the situation still appears to be grim as representatives from all over the country are playing various blame games while the economy is getting closer to the toilet and nation’s city streets are getting meaner. State and Local governments are complaining about non-assistance from the Federal Government as many businesses and department stores listed in last week’s Financial Report are “spontaneously combusting”.
A Colorado Hispanic based workers union in Grand Junction claims that they have video taped recordings of the Sheriffs department harassing Legal Immigrants and others with work visas. Unfortunately before the tape was aired, the Colorado TV station suffered an electrical fire from a faulty space heater.http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/01/21/vo.co.tv.station.burns.cnn
This is Heidi Marlene with N2A, the Network News Agency.
Between the downing of Air Force One plus Presidential Party, the globally induced travel restrictions, and the current economic woes (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/01/22/Dobbs.January23/index.html) many Americans are now set to progressive fits of rioting and want the Federal Government to FIX THE PROBLEM.
In a move that hasn’t been seen since the Civil War, many states are shouting out for the need to have “States Rights” as they were appointed in the Constitution to be reinstated. This appears to be in response to the States claiming the Federal Government is refusing to take responsibility for the security of the border and the rioting that is happening in major cities. Furthermore, the States claim that the troubles being experienced overseas are a Direct Result of failing policies from the previous administration. Consequently, many state leaders are looking at how to re-apportion these rights in this troubled time.
In other news, http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43754,
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,182650,00.html. Local state governors are trying to address the problem but “coordination issues” are occurring between various state and federal level agencies. Primary of these obstacles is in question the amount of authority a state governor can assume in defense of his state without federal permission.
There’s still no word or film footage from Middle East nations on the shooting down of Air Force One but the SeenHere.com website has hundreds of web confessions claiming to have performed this horrible act. More shirts stating “I SHOT AIR FORCE ONE!” and this picture (http://www.mossroot.com/images/evil_squirrel.jpg) have been showing up worldwide and around the airport in Egypt. Interpol is investigating what seems to be regional coordination between these acts along with a taskforce from the State Department and FBI.
Mex-Odus? Many Hispanics are leaving the country in what some say is an active campaign to remove work opportunities and housing from Hispanic peoples. Calls to improve housing, wages, and accessibility to public programs for this community are going unheard, they claim. This is the side of these Latinos in transit. Sheriffs and Police Depts. in Texas however are responding to complaints from landlords that their tenants are refusing to pay monthly rentals. In some cases, this is all the Hispanics tenants of some apartment communities. The problem isn’t suffered for long the landlords claim, as after a month or so the tenants join the ranks of those going south. Were not sure if any of this has anything to do with the conflict happening in provinces south of the Border.
On a different issue, the progress of China’s Product Safety Centers on both coasts seem to be slowing. Complaints of over promising are starting to emerge from a disgruntled populace that is not used to waiting and are now beset with national discontent. A China spokesman had addressed the issue earlier in a statement that they were “having problems hiring preferable candidates to fill the non-technical jobs from the applicants”. When asked why that was the case, slightly flustered he remarked “that if the Government of the United States had ever had any interest in winning its 'war on drugs', they would have actually done something that worked.” This statement brought cries of outrage and state level agencies are looking into the problem. So it seems that the situation is rough all over.
I’m Jim Thornton with N2A, the Network News Agency.
It’s been an interesting day today in the news as we bring you a quick recap on the latest events.
Worldwide, (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/01/24/asia.markets.ap/index.html), and a top Chinese Trade Diplomat said in a statement today that the views held by the former East Coast Logistics Manager do not reflect that of China and are apologizing by stepping up the shipping schedule.
On the nations front, (http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/12/lakota-withdraw.html), and (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317548,00.html) There is no word from Capitol Hill on this matter.
The Department of Justice has determined that because the problem on the border is drug related, legislation was passed today that allowed for the DEA, FBI and other related agencies to work in partnership with Mexican Officials and Narcotics Agents.
Down in Texas today, (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/01/23/texas.law/index.html).
I'm Travis Martin with N2A, the Network News you're into
The Defense Department is responding to the masses of Americans that have been stranded in various overseas locales. Cargo planes and Carrier groups on both coasts have been taking off since yesterday to start bringing home these citizens. So far, there has been worldwide cooperation to assist in these efforts.
Secretary of Defense Gates has authorized a Joint Operation involving the US Navy, DEA, NSA, and other American agencies to follow up on recent actionable intelligence just gained recently involving drug trafficking and the current border situation. Also related http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/01/23/mexican.drug.lord.ap/index.html
Initial reports from the DEA and Department of Justice have yielded some amazing results that suggest that an even bigger part is being played by corrupt members of the Mexican army. An unnamed Dallas District court is currently assembling the evidence there is are already lots of activity between the Texas Department of Justice and Washington.
There are rolling blackouts on the east coast as unconfirmed reports suggest one or two power stations suffered mechanical failures yesterday. If this has anything to do with the rioting in the major cities, no public utility officials have came forward. In the case of the Boston fires, this means that electrical wires can no longer re-ignite fires that the fire crews had a difficult time with.
China is offering to take themselves off the local power grids by using industrial grade generators that have been sent over on the cargo ships. A New Orleans Product Safety Center spokesman stated that, ”the city of New Orleans has been through troubling times over the last few years and local power stations are still struggling with the demands of the Paying customers that live here. Were seeing the problems on both coasts and do not wish to contribute to them”. I’m sure that he was misinformed that the problem only exists on the East Coast.
I'm Travis Martin with N2A, the Network News you're into.
It started with an MS-13 raid on the Dallas District Court. In an earlier story today, (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/01/23/mexican.drug.lord.ap/index.html). Mexican Authorities and DEA agents then extradited the kingpin to an unmentioned Dallas District Court. That’s when the shocking action took place and MS-13 stormed the courthouse killing a total of 37 officers and injuring 82 employees and civilians.
Within moments since the raid on the judicial building, the city council and infrastructure buildings in many cities all over the nation have been under assault from rioters in some instances throwing flaming Molotov cocktail bottles.
The list of cities under siege so far look like: Jacksonville FL, Norfolk VA, New York NY, and Boston MA. In the mid-west: Milwaukee WI, Chicago IL, St Louis MO, and Memphis TN. On the west coast: San Diego CA, Long Beach CA, San Francisco CA, Portland OR, and Seattle WA. In the south the cities are: Corpus Christi TX, Galveston TX, and New Orleans LA.
We will be following up on this special report and other news at the top of the hour. I’m Jim Thornton with N2A, the Network News Agency.
I’ve had an extreme adventure of horrific proportions since the last time I broadcasted the fatal departure of Air Force One. But first, a brief look at the region.
The northernmost Zone A MFO Base was involved in an attack earlier today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-04-26-egypt-blast_x.htm) and
There are unconfirmed reports of armed skirmishes with the locals at the site of the Air Force One crash site as no news crews have been willing to--
****************************SPECIAL BULLETIN*********************************
We interrupt this broadcast to bring you the following news bulletin.
Good morning, I’m Secretary of Defense Gates, Executive and Interim President of the United States.
Effective immediately, I have declared Martial Law and am issuing the following mandatory measures in this time of need to control the looting and amount of lawlessness that is now abound in this country.
First, there is a national curfew ordered to protect its citizens. All citizens are to be inside their place of residence and no longer allowed to be outside from seven o’clock PM until seven o’clock AM the following morning. US military and National Guard troops will be enforcing this curfew until further notice.
Secondly, all US citizens are required to carry two forms of identification on them at all times. Random searches on citizens and/or property from military personnel should be expected and those necessary will be detained as needed for further questioning.
Third, Federal Agents will be collecting all personal firearms and hunting type bows. After the initial amnesty turn-in period, if weapons of any sort are found in the possession of or on the property of US citizens or visitors to the country, penalties will be levied. The penalties levied may include but are not limited to: incarceration, surrender of assets or property, and possibly death.
Fourth, any communication or messaging that may be considered hazardous to the public welfare of the people will not be tolerated and will be prosecuted. Those rioting or supporting unlawful actions will be prosecuted.
As the Interim Leader of this country, it is my intent to make a smooth transition into the administration of the next democratically elected leader. With all of the disturbances that are plaguing the country, I feel its necessary to enact the measures that I have mentioned. I like every else, want to see an end to the chaos all around me. I hope that we can return to being the civilized nation that we have been known for in years past.
Thank you.
***********************************BUZZ*********************************
In response to Secretary of Defense Gates’ statement this morning, a series of reactions all over the world have been happening. On the World Market, stocks have been riding the tsunamis of massive rising and falling and rising again.
US Installations all over the world have been told to “hunker down” and maintain a constant state of vigilance in this trying time. Already some installations in Europe, the Middle East, and Asia have came under sporadic attacks from what look like student groups.
Both Canada and Mexico have responded to the US martial law by deploying soldiers to the border to ”help the US government contain any dissident citizens that are seeking unlawful refuge from Due Process of the Law”.
The Governors of Montana, Minnesota, US held portions of North Dakota, and Maine are filing charges of a Military Coup against the leadership of the local National Guard units. The respective Commanding Officers are stating that this is NOT a coup but merely the desire to protect the border instead of “rounding up their own civilians for Government Sponsored Detention Camps”. “Normally our folks are well behaved and harmonious with each other and I’m not going to needlessly jeopardize their lives because my state leader is in someone’s pocket” one decorated General offered.
The North Dakota Commander replied that his “forces are already spread too thin with the Indians to support such an asinine objective.” The South Dakota governor and National Guard Commander have not been contacted as of yet for this update.
When the top Louisiana National Guard Commander was contacted briefly, he stated that ALL of his military service members were NOT participating in Secretary of Defense Gates’ martial law action. He has instead ordered them to work with the local civilians to re-establish necessary infrastructure and services desperately needed.
The state leadership for California, Washington, Florida, and New Jersey have been away in China last Thursday for business and have not been available for comment since.
Nationally, the military bases here have been on alert since last week but so far only a few have deployed to support Secretary of Defense Gates’ Martial Law Order. It seems that there is a growing sense*******BUZZ**************************************
We interrupt this broadcast to bring you the following news bulletin.
Good morning, I’m Secretary of Defense Gates, Executive and Interim President of the United States.
Because of the nation wide rolling power surges, continuing violence being waged in the streets, and with the severely extended US Military’s inability to contain the chaos on the home front, I'm asking the UN to help assist us in our controlling these problems.
I have been told that an english speaking UN Peace Keeping force of Russians, Germans, and Indians are currently being assembled and will be arriving tomorrow on Wednesday. It is my hope that they will restore the order that we so desperately need in this dark hour.
They are here to assume the law enforcement duties that our current police and military force seem unable to at the moment.
Law abiding citizens have nothing to worry about providing that they comply with the instructions given by the peacekeepers.
Your national news will now be handled by military Public Affairs Office members or selected news outlets.
Thank you.
In the news today, many world leaders have announced that the instability in their countries brought on by the surge in US stock markets seems to be settling.
Overseas, American civilians and service members caught in the riots have been nearly 100% accounted for. The US Interim Government would ask that the family members of those deployed Americans here in the states please report to the local town hall or civic center for this information. This information is being released to valid family members this coming week but there is a process involved. Status on deployed loved ones starting with the letters A through E will be available on Monday. Tuesday will be the letters F through J. Wednesday will be K through O. Thursday will be the letters P through T and Friday will be U through Z. If you have missed the day that your loved ones info is available, unfortunately you will have to wait for the following week because of resources at this time. This process will be repeated at the end of the broadcast if you’ve missed it.
The first of the UN Peace Keeping Forces from the nations of Germany, India, and Russia arrived in ports along both seaboards and conducted a link up with US Forces. The following national interstates will be closed until further notice for the next two weeks to civilian traffic. These interstates so far consist of: I-5, I-10, and I-95. It is the intent of Secretary of Defense Gates and the UN Forces Commander to secure these lanes to deploy rapidly to still troubled areas here in the states. Again that’s I-5, I-10, and I-95. Checkpoints or barriers will be posted at these junctures to prevent unlawful travel.
The bulk of this link up was without problems but there was a mix up while unloading in Seattle. An Indian contingent force Striker Vehicle had an Accidental Discharge while dismounting from the UN RO-RO ship. Some equipment and a few buildings were destroyed and several lives were lost. The UN Forces Commander and Defense Dept are still investigating the incident.
Families of these missing loved ones in Seattle and surrounding areas are asked to go to the local town hall or civic center for this information. Please follow the same Letter/Day procedures for these family members.
On the home front, there are still patches of scattered violence along the US / Mexico border but all instances of assisted border crossing from the Mexican Army have ceased. Also, regional violence from MS-13 groups have tapered off since the initial attack on the Dallas District Court building. The State Department is investigating possible connections.
The rolling power outages are continuing but not as much from before. Defense Department investigators have narrowed the cause to computer viruses that were sent from Offshore or Overseas servers. The power surges unfortunately will have to be tolerated but US Military forces are setting up aid stations. These will provide clean water, some food, and non-emergency medical care. Emergency medical situations are to be reported to any available US or UN forces in your area.
Again for military family members of those deployed Americans and missing loved ones in Seattle and surrounding areas, please report to the local town hall or civic center for this information. Information is being released to valid family members with two forms of picture ID this coming week but there is a process involved for the Letter/Day procedures. Status on deployed or missing loved ones starting with the letters A through E will be available on Monday. Tuesday will be the letters F through J. Wednesday will be K through O. Thursday will be the letters P through T and Friday will be U through Z. If you have missed the day that your loved one’s info is available, unfortunately you will have to wait for the following week because of resources available.
I’m Pfc. Michelle Mazula from the 18th Airborne Corps PAO and on behalf of myself and the rest of the US Military, we wish you a peaceful and safe evening.
Thank you.
It is with a heavy heart and sadness of great loss that I inform you of the following.
Militant factions within the senior US government Offices have made an attempt to seize power of extreme proportions. These forces were trying to gain control of the United States Nuclear Arsenal. With guidance from the UN President and the desire to NOT have a Nuclear Incident on domestic soil, I have forwarded lateral control of the US Nuclear Arsenal to the United Nations leadership to safeguard it against the Unimaginable. The UN leadership and myself collectively are the authorizing entity that has control of this inventory.
It is my promise to the citizens of the United States that we will return to be One Nation Under God *******************BUZZZZZZZZZ*********************************************
Hello, I’m Ge-********BUZZ*********** -manding Officer of the Louisiana National Guard. As of this afternoon, I am assuming command of any and all remaining military forces that-*************** Secretary of Defense Gates, Executive and Interim President of the United States has been assassinated and the White House has been seized in some sort of elaborate International Coup. It’s currently being held by the UN Forces Comman***********and his forces. We’re still inves-******* BUZZ***BUZZ***********-amn it! Clean up that feed people, that’s an Or…. Sorry team, just make it happen. I’m counting on you. We’re on now?
We’re still investigating what happened with the various communiqué and digital traffic coming from the White House but it lo*******they wer*****south*******BUZZ******hinese**********************BUZZ**********************
(Briarpatch) What?!?!
(say Briarpatch) BRIARPATCH! BRIARPATCH! What the heck does that mea-*****BUZZ****************
Shere Khan, King Louie. I authenticate 96AO-6BF03208.
Msg follows: OK Corral, Mulan and Speedy G invited to Cinderella’s teaparty. Brats and Curry sauce not served. Guided by the Lonestar. Quicksilver and party fashionably late. Phoenix on standby. Tse-Tse Ops.
Anyone's game from here. I'll explain any entries or fill in the blanks. Like the 12v Flower beds.
Comments?
Doug
Meanwhile, with cheap labor I would attract US compagnies and have them move their production to China. Thus triggering social unrest. Just when the first black president is about to be elected I would make shure some KKK wacko disposes of him to create the conditions for civil war in the US.
Then, while the country is completely disorganised I would run 100 tankers filled with armed peasants to take over the country with the help of the millions of chineese immigrants already living on US soil.
Paranoïd enough for you ! God I scare myself sometimes. Its a good thing this is only a game ... ;)
Tiger Actual, Quicksilver Actual. I authenticate 18AO-4TG04308
Msg follows: Orange Gate, Tombstone, Roswell AO's distressed. Ivan, Stinky, and Kaiser thick with toys. Sunshine packing lots of heat from fiesta. Many new dishes.
Voodoo and Ripper elements laced.
No contact with Wise Man. Phoenix better pack a lunch.
DECRYPT**********
18 acres complex still opened to all vistors,must be closing time soon. The jeep is wrecked,repeat jeep is wrecked.Possiable surviors.
DECRYPT********
ENCRYPT*******
Its been awhile.
O and Im trying this agian with a New group.
It was a LONG, FUN, and INTERESTING ride.
One of my best story episode efforts.
Doug