How many of you have used Time travel in your campaigns? how did you overcome issues like paradox?
Time travel has awesome potential for RPG and storytelling in general, yet is frought with problems! and require an incredible amount of work on the part of the GM, so with that said, are there any rules that you can apply to minimalise this potentially nervous breakdown causing concept?
One of my big ambition is to create a Doctor Who D20 game ( I did start a thread in D20 sci-fi, but it just died due to lack of interest) and time travel would a massive role in any campaign in that setting, however Time travel is an interesting possibility for any setting (and a steampunk D20 Time machine would be quite interesting to play).
specific problems that immediatly come to mind in a RPG context are...
A fight goes badly for the players so they go back in time and help themselves out by placing landmines in the path they know their enemies will take.
The whole Bill and Ted argument with Denamolous situation "when we escape we go back and set this cage to fall on you "etc
A villain is causing a lot of trouble for the players and so the party travels back in time and kill him (or imprison him) when he is a baby or otherwise vulnerable.
The grandfather paradox, going back and killing your ancestor.
Interference in many big events of history.
any thoughts?
How many of you have used Time travel in your campaigns? how did you overcome issues like paradox?
I treat it like a river that forks, or rail road tracks. Think of it as several hundred possibilities, the choice you make takes you down fork A out of B,C, and D options.
B,C, and D are now alternate time lines that are for a cosmic "What if". When you change something, you merely switch the flow of time to a different option (B,C or D in this case). The cosmos automatically repairs itself by saying "There is no paradox, because this is the way it always was. You didn't actually change anything as far as I'm concerned. Even though you know the truth, the world doesn't."
That make sense?
Time travel has awesome potential for RPG and storytelling in general, yet is frought with problems! and require an incredible amount of work on the part of the GM, so with that said, are there any rules that you can apply to minimalise this potentially nervous breakdown causing concept?
Yes.
1. Don't think about it so much. Only if your instinct as a GM tells you "Wait a sec... I should make note of that action/killing/NPC should you actually worry about it.
2. Don't tolerate players trying to pull the Bill and Ted crap, and certainly don't let them screw with time like it's their personal playground. Time has it's own security system, and if players screw with it too much, Time gets angry and you do not want Time to be angry.
A fight goes badly for the players so they go back in time and help themselves out by placing landmines in the path they know their enemies will take.
Perhaps they can only travel to a certain era once every XXX amount of time, and by XXX I mean long after they have forgotten how bad they lost and have no reason to go back. Or perhaps two of their 'future selves' can not exist in the same era at the same time with out causing them all to suffer Negative Levels as Time steps in and erases one of them from existence to help balance out the cosmos.
"No, guys. Just, no." always works too.
The whole Bill and Ted argument with Denamolous situation "when we escape we go back and set this cage to fall on you "etc
See above.
A villain is causing a lot of trouble for the players and so the party travels back in time and kill him (or imprison him) when he is a baby or otherwise vulnerable.
They have no way of finding him or Time completes a new 'stream' when the return to the world that should now be villain free they discover his great nephew/niece has taken up the mantle and he's more crazy and powerful than the first guy. And more attractive, and sleeping with one of PCs wives/girlfriends/daughters/sisters/brothers/husbands etc....
Reward cowards accordingly. Popping a cap in a baby just because you know he's going to grow up to turn all the world's oceans into raspberry Jell-O doesn't make the deed any less heartless.
The grandfather paradox, going back and killing your ancestor.
Hey, this wipes out their existence. If they're that stupid let em start rolling up new stats.
Interference in many big events of history.
If it's meant to happen it will happen. Classic scenario where no matter what the PCs try to stop major events in history they come to find out that it's their actions that caused them to happen.
Ever read "The Time Machine" by H.G. Wells? Basically the love of the character's life (Emma) dies. This inspires him to create a time machine to save her and change the past. Several times he tries and each time he 'saves' her she dies in a different manner all over again.
Why? Simple. He built his time machine because of Emma's death. If she had lived it would never have existed, so how could he use his time machine to go back and save her? He was the inescapable result of his own tragedy. (To almost quote the movie verbatim. It's a fav of mine.)
Keep things like that in mind. I say even rent the movie (although recommend the book first if you've never read it).
Basically just keep a level head, take notes, and don't fret every detail. We're not quantum physicists, we're just gamers trying to have a good time in our alternate realities.
Just one thing, I believe the book "Time Machine" and the movie have completely different plots. I haven't seen the movie, but I've read the book and don't remember that being what it was about (It's not a big deal, movie "adaptations" generally have nothing to do with the books anyway).
Ever read "The Time Machine" by H.G. Wells? Basically the love of the character's life (Emma) dies. This inspires him to create a time machine to save her and change the past. Several times he tries and each time he 'saves' her she dies in a different manner all over again.
Why? Simple. He built his time machine because of Emma's death. If she had lived it would never have existed, so how could he use his time machine to go back and save her? He was the inescapable result of his own tragedy. (To almost quote the movie verbatim. It's a fav of mine.)
Now that I do like, in fact if memory serves, one of the reasons that the doctor in Dr. Who doesn't get involved to avert massive disasters is because doing so would make him "part of events" and then he would be bound to that particular timeline and as a frequent time traveller this could have huge consequences for him.
I suppose that something like that would reinforce a kind of guideline like "the more you travel in time, the less you should interfere with it", but what you have said does make a lot of sense in a logical way, building the time machine to prevent an action binds it to the timeline, making any action before it an inevitability.
Even better is the fact that it takes just one time traveller to think " I could go back and prevent the holocaust" to actually lock the holocaust into the timeline (as the sole reason for the trip was to prevent it, no holocaust no trip, no trip, no prevention of the holocaust) , they would return to the present to find that it occurred anyway.
Regarding the enemy issue, if the purpose of building the time machine was to go back and kill the mad scientist/dictator who destroys half the planet, they may go back and kill him only to disappear themselves as the technology would not have come about if it wasn't for this enemy.
and the grandfather paradox, if you go back and kill your ancestor (possibly by accident) then you wont exist, but if you don't exist you wouldn't have been able to kill your ancestor in the first place, this would make the ancestor immortal with regard to their descendant, the descendant couldn't kill them, because doing so would wipe them out and also their rather foolish assassination, and so time would revert to just before the ancestor died.
This has been a lot of help guys, thanks :D
Regarding time getting angry, I think some weird outsider types creatures that live between timelines in the void, would be a possible way to go, they are attracted to paradox like moths to a flame, they function as Times's antibodies, they are the self regulatory system of Time, and they are nasty!.
I am not sure how to deal with multiple version of the same person in the same time period! I don't like that thing in timecop where if they occupy the same space they explode, it doesn't make any sense, it probably would not be the same matter in contact (as the matter of the body is replaced every seven years if memory serves).
however there should be some form of intangible "debuff" perhaps draining their ability scores, or maybe if there are 2 versions of the same person sharing a time period they each get half the ability scores to represent the paradox of 2 people occupying the same instant, loss of intelligence does not make them seem stupider, but manifests as fuzzy memory, lack of concentration, likewise strength loss is a form of fatigue.
Incidentally I have read War of the Worlds, and would very much like to read both the time machine but also the island of Dr. Moreau (who I will visualize as Marlon Brando despite the books description of him :D)
Just one thing, I believe the book "Time Machine" and the movie have completely different plots. I haven't seen the movie, but I've read the book and don't remember that being what it was about (It's not a big deal, movie "adaptations" generally have nothing to do with the books anyway).
They are very different. I was so into setting the stage for the example I failed to separate the book and the movie. I was, in fact, addressing more the movie than the book since most people seem more familiar with the movie than the book.
At any rate...
The multiple people in the same era is simple... You and you five years ago are cool. Time can accept the fact that you are traveling through it and it's only a matter of (heh) time before you run into someone who is either you, knows you.
But it has to draw the line somewhere. Five year old you belongs there, so it has no beef with that, but Now You and Future You, both of which do not belong here have now just violated Time's hospitality.
One of You has to go. Start using negative levels on the aspect of the PCs who do not belong there. Think of Back to the Future, Marty was fading away, Time was erasing him from the stream of possibilities.
Same goes for PCs. Start removing levels from them, the longer they stick around the more difficult the Save DC is each day. Start it at DC 15 and increase it by +2 every day. Even the most hearty PC will eventually succumb to the Cosmos. Simply put: "Don't
with Fate."Now, you might wish to run an adventure where two of the same PC exist in a specific time line and are not supposed to be there, thus invoking Time's wrath. It makes for a great story but in this instance I'd use an alternate method for resolving the desperation of them solving the issue or fading away.
As for PCs trying to go back in time and make an encounter more easy- If you like you can always let them do it. Then reduce the ECL (and by proxy the amount of XP they get awarded). So they adjust the odds in their favor, now it's double the amount of PCs vs the baddies. When 4 PCs dividing XP suddenly becomes 8 PCs it should dissuade them from pulling the stunt too often, but on the other hand having a little fun with Time at the cost of lower XP would be fun from time to time. It shows the PCs that they do in fact control time, but at a cost.
I certainly would not allow it in the event of 'major boss' battles.
Time travelers immunity
Time Traveler's Immunity
Thus far, we've described nearly the entire scope of the time travel mechanics covered in the series, including some irregularities and theories. However, one aspect of the utmost importance remains; it is the absence of the Grandfather Paradox. If you recall, the Grandfather Paradox addresses what would happen if a time traveler went back in time and shot his mother before he was born. Would he cease to exist on the spot? The Chrono series has a knack for shunning paradoxes, and this case is no different. Let's view some examples.
Crono takes the Jerky to the Porre Mayor of 600 A.D. to make his 1000 A.D. counterpart give up the Sun Stone. So Crono's past now reflows through the new timeline; history is changed and the mayor is happy. Crono has no need to go to the past now to give the 600 A.D. mayor the Jerky because his 1000 A.D. descendent is now generous and gives him the Sun Stone. If Crono doesn't go back, the 600 A.D. mayor won't get the Jerky. The grandfather paradox is conveniently brushed aside. Another one -- Crono defeats Lavos in 1999 A.D., making the future bright and happy. In this new timeline, Crono's history through time is changed. The future he must warp to now is not derelict and ruined. So does he still find an Epoch just waiting for him there? There won't be one, so he can't do half the stuff he's supposed to in order to kill Lavos! Will he see the Day of Lavos recording, the event that motivated him to go on his quest to defeat the alien parasite? Certainly not; Lavos never destroyed the world in this happy future. You can take this idea and apply it to nearly every single instance of changing time in the game!
Now, how does Chrono Trigger avoid the Grandfather Paradox is these examples? The answer is simple: time travelers are immune to the changes they make in the past, and the Grandfather Paradox simply does not exist. Crono can change the future so that he will never see the Day of Lavos recording and never be motivated to change the future, but this does not matter. Crono exerts his own free will to change history; he remembers each act he performed, even if these acts would preclude his necessity to perform them. While non-time travelers will always see the bright and happy future, Crono and his group can clearly remember the ruined future and their actions to remedy it. Crono's actions are preserved in time; if you went back to 600 A.D. a little before Crono came in to give the Jerky to the elder's wife, you could clearly observe him emerge from a Gate and give the elder's wife Jerky. No matter how time travelers drastically change history (even their personal history), they are exempt from the effects. Consider the Principle of Discarded Timelines above; the very presence of Crono in the past would change history, if only by his miniscule exertion of gravity on the particles of the world. Yet Crono remains the same person while traveling through time!
The unifying principle behind Time Traveler's Immunity is that once an entity travels through time, he or she is disconnected from the original timeline by changing history (past or future), and causality and consequences are resultingly broken.
Time Traveler's Immunity has other ramifications; namely, the Emergence Preservation Corollary. Imagine that you go back in time to 999 A.D. and murder Crono a full year before he can travel through time. What occurs at 1000 A.D.? Does the ruined future magically come back into place now that Crono cannot conceivably go back in time to 600 A.D.? It would not; under Time Traveler's Immunity, a time traveler's actions are preserved in the past. Think of it like this -- when Crono enters a Gate to 600 A.D., it does not take him to a specific timeline, but merely deposits him somewhere spatially at the time of 600 A.D. in the current timeline. Let's make an example based on a few occurrences in chronological order, all hypothetical.
1. Time Traveler Sayid Locke goes back to 600 A.D. 2. Sayid Locke plants a tree in fertile ground, and goes back to the present. 3. Time Traveler Ethan Eko changes prehistory to make the world have a desert climate.
Now, when Sayid comes through the portal, will he see fertile ground? Certainly not; he'll observe the desert, as the timeline containing fertile ground has been relegated to the Darkness Beyond Time. The same would happen if someone went back in time and killed Sayid after he had already time traveled. Sayid would still emerge in the Gate of 600 A.D., as the act of time traveling separated his relationship of causality from the timeline by relegating his historical timeline to the Darkness Beyond Time. This means that Crono and the others' actions as time travelers are preserved in time, and even though they might preclude their birth from ever happening, they still exist even if they return to a 1000 A.D. in which they were never born. Time Traveler's have immunity from their own actions or the change of timelines.
At this point, two questions are probably on your mind. Firstly, what about the incident at the beginning of the game where Marle is explained by Lucca to have disappeared due to the grisly fate of her ancestor, Leene? That will be addressed in the Issues section of this article, which is next in line after this section. Secondly, you may be wondering, what happens to the new versions of time travelers? That is, if Crono goes back in time and changes history so that the climate of the world is now desert, what happens to the version of Crono who grows up in this desert world? And what happens to this boy when the time arrives that the original Crono went back in time? Does he simply disappear, or is he free to live? These are addressed in the next theory, Time Bastard.
Essentially, each character had two tracks. Paradox and grace.
Grace was borrowed from the resevoir in their home base, and expending a point of it allowed them to sidestep a few of time's rules for a few seconds (additional actions, bonuses to certain actions, enhanced initiiative, limited precognition etc).
Paradox was a wasting disease, ripples and fractures in time depending on how badly they were muddling, that impacted on the individual.
As long as they were being subtle in the past, then they could survive most trips.
If wearing a chrono suit, a character could tap into an initial pool of grace equal to their wisdom modifier + their level. Likewise, they could happilly absorb an amount of paradox equal to their wisdom score, plus half their level.
Once an individual exceeded their paradox quotient, they could attempt to offset any further accrual by shunting grace into it (but that requires them to be in their chrono suit)
every point of paradox gained in excess caused 1D3 con drain, as they began to get written out of existence.
Paradox was acquired at an hourly, daily, weekly or monthly rate, determined by their actions. simply killing someone in the past accrued 1 paradox for every HD he had. leaving stuff behind was also good for 1 paradox. and so on.
In that particular campaign, there was no 'forking' in the road as far as timestreams were concerned. no alternate realities created. Time simply buldozed its way on. Suit shields could assist (by countering with Grace) and home base had a lot of Grace to shield it's environs (so PC's could always return home and try to correct mistakes while base's grace supply lasted) but otherwise, they made subtle or not so subtle changes in the world's history.
Essentially speaking though, no one messed with paradoxes becuase of the potentially fatal consequences.
Of course, future travel is yet to be explored. and realtime missions are made easier with the ability to tap into grace (chronosuits are light armour as well)
Batts
Grace was borrowed from the resevoir in their home base, and expending a point of it allowed them to sidestep a few of time's rules for a few seconds (additional actions, bonuses to certain actions, enhanced initiiative, limited precognition etc).
I like that, Temporal grace, has the sound of a class feature about it for a time lord class.
As long as they were being subtle in the past, then they could survive most trips.
If wearing a chrono suit, a character could tap into an initial pool of grace equal to their wisdom modifier + their level. Likewise, they could happilly absorb an amount of paradox equal to their wisdom score, plus half their level.
Again rather cool, I would change the Chronosuit to a TARDIS.
Once an individual exceeded their paradox quotient, they could attempt to offset any further accrual by shunting grace into it (but that requires them to be in their chrono suit)
Which enables a class that can use extra temporal grace, or possess amazing time travel technology to cope with larger amounts of paradox.
Brilliant.
every point of paradox gained in excess caused 1D3 con drain, as they began to get written out of existence.
I like that as well, rather like in back to the future.
Essentially speaking though, no one messed with paradoxes becuase of the potentially fatal consequences.
Of course, future travel is yet to be explored. and realtime missions are made easier with the ability to tap into grace (chronosuits are light armour as well)
and thus creates a way to prevent the PCs from playing with paradox too much and saving me from a nervous breakdown.
Would you be able to post what rules you came up with for using grace?, does it require a feat? skill rolls? class features etc?
Headquarters, also known as HQ has a massive Temporal compression chamber, allowing it to generate a field of 'grace' roughly equal to 60 per month (plus the result of a computer use check by a qualified technician).
This grace is stored in a series of conduits that permiate the facility, a four storey bunker with dedicated power and independant life support. by channelling grace through these conduits, it extends normal paradox protection to the entire base.
A series of transmitters and a dedicated system of satellite tracking allows HQ to transmit Grace to any active chronosuit in this timeframe.
(inference: player characters have access to as much Grace as they can handle, as long as they have satellite reception and are wearing a working suit)
When being sent through time, they acquire a timestamp (essentially all matter radiates it's proper place in time). before sending a person through time, their chronosuits are filled with grace from HQ's supply.
When sending a team through time, communication is sketchy at best. an evac signal can be sent via the wrist com section of the chronosuit, but it takes 1D10 minutes per decade for HQ to recieve and get a lock on the suits to recall them.
If HQ sends any large pieces of equipment, (over 80lbs) they will need a small grace battery attached to get a firm grip and to perform a recall (uses up one grace point from HQ's reserves)
Standard time equipment:
Chrono-suit. Lightly armoured scout suit
[Future: Pg 69. Improved defence gadget. +4 to hide when in appropriate camoflage. Equip bonus +3 Max dex +6 AP -1 spd 30 feet weight 4lbs Purchase DC 13] In addition, the chronosuit has a network of relays that store Grace.
Helmet: with installed radio mikes and, inbuilt Light, and timestamp sensor [75 foot range (cone) sensor, detects timestamps that are not local +10 to spot when looking for objects with an incorrect timestamp]
Also characters are issued with webbing that holds one canteen, one first aid kit and miscellaneous supplies. In addition each suit has a timepiece, used to coordinate missions, to arrange pickups and to act as a SOS beacon to HQ.
A sidearm is not standard issue, though HQ keeps a set 'just in case' and most agents have the wherewithal to take a knife or Truncheon.
Grace: Storing Grace in a suit was a natural funtion of the game (no feat necessary). likewise, using grace required that the character undergo training but no specific feats were needed. Grace storage was a matter of wisdom and experience (wisdom bonus + level) (though the feat: Extra Grace was made available, and added +3 grace to the meter)
A point of Grace could be used to:
* Mitigate a point of gained paradox. This just negated the effects of it. The paradox remained gained, just no negative effects are accrued.
* Accellerate self: +4 to initiative for 1D4 rounds
* Extra actions: Gain 1 extra standard or move action for 1D4 rounds.
* last ditch defence: Jump defence by 4 points after being hit.
* Precognition: +1 to strike, +1defence and +1 damage from general precognition and speed for 1D4 rounds.
* enhance reflexes: +4 to reflex saves for 1D4 rounds
* Speed: Multiply speed by 4 for 1D4 rounds
* gain the use of a relevant feat for 1D4 rounds (mobility, evasion, uncanny dodge, cleave etc...)
There is no actual problem association with running out of grace (apart from having no more grace)
A repair check (DC 25 and a computer use check (Dc 15) can transfer grace from a suit or a battery at a rate of 1 point every 10 minutes.
Paradox:
This is a very figety bit. a character (that is the character not the suit) can safely mitigate a nummber of points of paradox equal to their total wisdom score, plus half of their level (round down).
Paradox is accrued whenever an actin or event occurs through tampering that adjust events with the character's timestamp.
Time is mildly chaotic. and so paradox was pretty arbitrary. typically 1 point is accrued per month just by living in peace and isolation (gathering specimins in the cretaceous for example). this drops to one per week if interaction with people is a possibility. this drops to one per day if the characters become known or famous or start interfereing accidentally with people in the past. anything remotely resembling an odd or eccentric lifestyle starts at 1 paradox per day.
Killing a person in the past has dramatic repercussions and accrues an instant paradox point (it could be an ancestor of the man who grows up to save the life of the man who introduced your great grandparents), likewise, changing the lives of many people (killing a local bandit) can accrue 1D3 paradox.
Other random events require an immeadiate wisdom check (DC 15). failure means that the event has repercussions in the future that the character did not take into account and incurs 1 paradox. (killing a wolf may seem harmless, but that wolf might be responsible for killing a man, who's descendants include a famous painter that dates your great grandmother.
Paradox in excess of your maximum supply causes 1D3 con damage, which becomes con drain if reduced to 0 con.
When characters return to HQ they must make a Wisdom check (DC 0 plus accumulated paradox). a failure means that radical alterations have occured in the real world. HQ burns off 1 grace point per week. players have that time to rectify the situation.
When characters return from the past, HQ bleeds off any excess paradox with its remaining grace supply. if it cannot, players are stuck. and have to work to effect changes.
Feats that have seen action:
Extra Grace (as described above)
Extended grace: [PreReq: extra grace. Grace effects last 2 rounds longer each tiem you take this feat]
Student of history: [Knowledge: history 6 ranks. you have +2 to wisdom checks to resist gaining paradox and +2 to wisdom checks to return home]
Personal storage: [PreReq: extra grace, extended grace wisdom 15+ you have a personal grace supply equal to your wisdom modifier (resets at a rate of 1 point every day)]
Action Hero: [You may spend an action point to regain 1D2 grace points]
That's really all I have. I'm sure more can be extrapolated.
Batts
Example
On Tuesday you wore a red shirt because you had agreed with a friend that you would both wear red. You get hurt and bleed alot before you realize it due to the red. As a result die in the hosptial. If some one goes back in Time and talk to you when you would have met your friend you dont wear the shirt and realize when you get hurt henceforth don't die. There is still a timeline running where you are dead just because you died doesn't mean the world stopped. Although now there is a Timeline where you are still alive only the person that saved you knows that they did, because there already was timeline were you didn't wear the shirt only you weren't saved just made a choice not to wear it.
Think about it how many decisions do you make every second, every one branches a new timeline.
I'm sure it has been said, but I am a firm believer that every thing you do is a choice and every choice you make, or don't make which not making a choice is a choice, creates a new timeline ever so slightly different from your own. The effects may be small or large but in essence the idea solves some problems. One If your players go back in time and change something when they return it may not be all that different or it may have changed drasticlly(spelling?).
Example
On Tuesday you wore a red shirt because you had agreed with a friend that you would both wear red. You get hurt and bleed alot before you realize it due to the red. As a result die in the hosptial. If some one goes back in Time and talk to you when you would have met your friend you dont wear the shirt and realize when you get hurt henceforth don't die. There is still a timeline running where you are dead just because you died doesn't mean the world stopped. Although now there is a Timeline where you are still alive only the person that saved you knows that they did, because there already was timeline were you didn't wear the shirt only you weren't saved just made a choice not to wear it.
Think about it how many decisions do you make every second, every one branches a new timeline.
It's a popular fallacy. a convenient bed time story, all sanitised for public consumption. The whole branching of timelines is a friendly way of saying, hey, you screwed up the time space continuim, but it's really OK because it's really just a fork in the timestream and somewhere out there is the way everything is supposed to be and all you have to do is make a couple of quick narritive tales and you can fix the timestream and have all the ends wrapped up neatly.
It's the stuff of bedtime stories and for low grade 80's cinema (Mcfly!!! I'm looking at you!)
That said, the idea that human choice is the be all and end all for determining alternate timelines smacks strongly of Hubris.
Batts