This thread will be dedicated to ideas to make the Fast hero a better ranged combatant. My ideas so far are to give some extra Talent trees:
New Fast Hero Talent Trees:
Marksmanship Talent Tree
The Fast Hero has an innate talent with ranged weapons.
Marksmanship: The Fast hero receives a +1 bonus to Base Attack Bonus. He takes a -1 penalty to melee attacks.
Improved Marksmanship: The Fast hero receives an additional +1 bonus to Base Attack Bonus(+2 total). He takes a -1 penalty to melee attacks (-2 total).
Prerequisite: Marksmanship.
Advanced Marksmanship: The Fast hero receives an additional +1 bonus to Base Attack Bonus (+3 total). He takes a -1 penalty to melee attacks (-3 total).
Prerequisites: Marksmanship, Improved Marksmanship.
Ranged Combatant Talent Tree
The Fast Hero can do stuff with guns that others can’t.
Reduced Recoil: The Fast hero can reduce the penalties due to recoil by 1 (Double Tap, Autofire, Burst Fire).
Prerequisite: Marksmanship.
Improved Reduced Recoil: The Fast hero can reduce the penalties due to recoil by 1 (Double Tap, Autofire, Burst Fire). This stacks with Reduced Recoil.
Prerequisite: Marksmanship, Improved Marksmanship, Reduced Recoil.
Line Up: The Fast hero gains +1 to hit when using a full round action to line up his shot. This stacks with the Dead Aim feat (only one round is needed to gain the benefits from both Line Up and Dead Aim).
Prerequisite: Marksmanship, Improved Marksmanship.
Bob the Rangedmaster
Fast10/Soldier10
Average HP: 140 (45+55+40)
Abilities:
Str:12 (11, +1 at 4th)
Dex:18 (16, +1 at 8th and 12th)
Con:14 (13, +1 at 16th)
Int:10
Wis:13
Cha:8
(Side-note: Wow, I forgot how restrictive point buy is. I think expert-marksman Strong/Martial Artist builds are more of a problem when you roll stats instead of using point buy.)
BAB: +14/+9/+4
Fort:+10
Ref:+13
Will:+7
Class Defense Bonus:+13 (Recommended: MW+3 Undercover Vest, granting a total of 30 defense when dexterity is included)
Rep: +5
Initiative Bonus: +6
Movement Speed: 45
Action Points: I don't even want to go there...
Feats: Simple Weapons Pro, Personal Firearms Pro (Occupation), Advanced Firearms Proficiency (human), Burst Fire (starting feat), Point Blank Shot (Fast2), Far Shot (3rd level), Double Tap (Fast4), Fast Hero Plus (level 6), Defensive Martial Arts (Fast6), Combat Expertise (Fast8), Fast Plus (Fast10), Fast Plus (12th level), Light Armor Proficiency (Soldier 3, might want to take this earlier, perhaps switching places with Far Shot or Burst Fire), Dead Aim (Level 15), Combat Reflexes (Soldier 6, You never know, it could be fun), Heroic Surge (18th level, again, you might want to take this earlier at the expense of a feat you can take with Soldier), Exotic Firearms Proficiency (pick a toy).
Talents: Evasion (Fast1), Marksmanship (Fast3), Uncanny Dodge 1 (Fast5), Reduced Recoil (FP1), Uncanny Dodge 2 (FP1), Improved Marksmanship (Fast7), Increased Speed (Fast9), Improved Reduced Recoil (FP2), Improved Increased Speed (FP2), Advanced Increased Speed (FP3), Line Up (FP3).
Class Features: Weapon Focus (M4), Weapon Specialization (same as previous), Tactical Aid, Improved Critical, Improved Reaction, Critical Strike.
Total Attack Bonus:
Standard: +22/+17/+12
Full-round single shot: +25
Heroic Surge Volley: +22/+17/+12/+22 (Likely to hit twice, maybe even three times.) 5 times per day.
Burst-Fire Volley: +18/+13/+8
Heroic Surge Burst-fire Volley: +18/+13/+8/+18
Damage: 2d8+4, Crit on 19-20/X2, auto-confirm.
Burst-Fire Damage: 4d8+4, Crit on a 19-20/X2, auto-confirm.
Not bad. I'd say the accuracy to damage and crit-range trade-off is a little more fair now.
try Sight Alignment for a simple increase on hit.
@ Akodo: I haven't seen that movie. If you're thinking One Shot - Two Kills -style, I don't think it should be a Base Class Talent. That seems kinda powerful.
Actually, "lining up" a shot means to take carefull aim. Sight Alignment would work as a name too. You're welcome to name it what you want. ;)
So, positive responses so far? Cool.
I like this idea, and might run it in my (hopefully near-future) Shadow Chaser's game.
Ragitsu -- Yeah, split BAB would be nice. That's another option I'm considering for the aforementioned campaign-to-be.
Total Attack Bonus:
Standard: +22/+17/+12
Full-round single shot: +25
Heroic Surge Volley: +22/+17/+12/+22
but, if that same guy went the Str10/MA10 route, with PFP(occ), Focus(str), Dtap(lvl3):
Standard: +25/+20/+15/+10
DTaps: +23/+18/+13/+8
Now, this is just something KungFu-Joe does in his spare time, when he is not WeaponFinessing his foot all over some guys head. With just a StartingOcc(PFP) and taking Weapon Focus (str2), and DoubleTap (3rd feat). The entire rest of his KungFu-Joe build is still left for him to pursue, but the lions share of the RangeMaster Fastguy is used up, to still not shoot as well as KungFu-Jo.
Joe's DTaps: +23/+18/+13/+8
Guy's DTaps: +22/+17/+12
Look, Joe can take the DTap penalties & still shoot with better odds than FastGuy.... and then get a little caramel bonus at the end in the form af one more shot at just +8 without Heroic/Lightning
Who is the better marksman,
the guy that can take a single attack at +25,
or the guy that makes the same +25, but also takes +18/+13/+8 the same round (or +25 AttackAction & MoveAction 30'), because he aint using DeadAim
but, if that same guy went the Str10/MA10 route, with PFP(occ), Focus(str), Dtap(lvl3):
Standard: +25/+20/+15/+10
DTaps: +23/+18/+13/+8
Now, this is just something KungFu-Joe does in his spare time, when he is not WeaponFinessing his foot all over some guys head. With just a StartingOcc(PFP) and taking Weapon Focus (str2), and DoubleTap (3rd feat). The entire rest of his KungFu-Joe build is still left for him to pursue, but the lions share of the RangeMaster Fastguy is used up, to still not shoot as well as KungFu-Jo.
Joe's DTaps: +23/+18/+13/+8
Guy's DTaps: +22/+17/+12
Look, Joe can take the DTap penalties & still shoot with better odds than FastGuy.... and then get a little caramel bonus at the end in the form af one more shot at just +8 without Heroic/Lightning
Who is the better marksman,
the guy that can take a single attack at +25,
or the guy that makes the same +25, but also takes +18/+13/+8 the same round (or +25 AttackAction & MoveAction 30'), because he aint using DeadAim
I said a little more fair. :P It's a step in the right direction, and now the Fast/Soldier isn't as outmatched by the Strong/MA.
That does bug me, though... This is the sort of reason why I think BAB should be split in Modern. This way, we could have a full-ranged-BAB guy with all the fast hero bonuses out-shooting the crap out of the martial artist.
This way, we could have a full-ranged-BAB guy with all the fast hero bonuses out-shooting the crap out of the martial artist.
Oh heck yeah.
Full Melee & 1/2 Ranged BAB for Mongo,
Full Ranged & 1/2 Melee for Jimmy the Shooter
Easy as pie to implement directly:
Strong Hero: full BAB & all ranged attacks @ -1 / 2ClassLevel
Fast Hero: full BAB & all melee attacks @ -1 / 2ClassLevel
Anyway, what's your thought on the level 1 ability increase?
Anyhow, I find it sucky that to be eligible for the Sniper PrC you have to enter medium BAB classes
.Hey Tema69, why did you get rid of your avatar?
Anyhow, I find it sucky that to be eligible for the Sniper PrC you have to enter medium BAB classes
Coz I'm a noob. I tried to change it, then realized that I couldn't have a custom one. Now I can't change it back.
Agreed. That's why Marksmanship could contribute to that. Slightly.
Anyhooo. Doesn't anyone have something to say about the +1 Ability increase?
Rather than having the Marksmanship bonus contribute to BAB requirements, what is stopping us from just making the bonus a flat +BAB bonus? That way they gunguy gets itterative attacks almost as soon as Mongo
Alright.
I think that's a good idea, adding the Marksmanship bonuses to RangedGunGuy's BAB alltogether. I'll consider that.
...
Considered. Accepted. I'll add that to the stuff. Thanks.
Edit: What do you think of it now? With the penalty to melee rolls every time he selects marksmanship. That way, it's not overpowered (+1 BAB > +1 melee damage for example).
(been looking at the d20 Modern Archives, there were some threads about this stuff too)
Strong Hero: 1/1 Melee BAB - 1/2 Ranged BAB.
Fast Hero: 1/2 Melee BAB - 1/1 Ranged BAB. Added the Ranged Combatant Talent Tree.
Tough: 3/4 Melee & Ranged BAB.
Smart: 1/2 Melee & Ranged BAB.
Dedicated: 3/4 Melee & Ranged BAB.
Charismatic: 1/2 Melee & Ranged BAB.
Considering the Tough Hero - It has weaker Will, weaker Skill points, fewer Class Skills, weaker Reputation, but better HD than the Dedicated Hero. Since the HD really is the Tough Hero's asset, why not up it to d12s? The difference between a d8 (Fast/Strong Hero) and d10 (Tough Hero) is on average 1. I think d12 would be more appropriate. Either that, or give him the same skill points (5+) as the Fast Hero.
Oh, and add friggin' Improved MAS Threshold to his Bonus Feats list!
Oh, and add friggin' Improved MAS Threshold to his Bonus Feats list!
:heehee
I have no idea what they were smokin when they left that out
Yeah, just bump them up to d12 is fine with me.
:heehee
I have no idea what they were smokin when they left that out
Yeah, just bump them up to d12 is fine with me.
:D
I just wrote this down. I had a problem with the Helix Warrior and the Ranger... Tracer. I didn't really know if they were Ranged or Melee or both or whatever. So I didn't do nothin'.
The following changes apply to the d20 Modern classes.
Strong Hero:
Hit Dice: changed to 1d4+4
1/1 Melee BAB
1/2 Ranged BAB
Fast Hero:
Hit Dice: changed to 1d4+4
1/2 Melee BAB
1/1 Ranged BAB
Ranged Combatant Talent Tree
The Fast Hero can do stuff with guns that others can’t.
Reduced Recoil: The Fast hero can reduce the penalties due to recoil by 1 (Double Tap, Autofire, Burst Fire).
Improved Reduced Recoil: The Fast hero can reduce the penalties due to recoil by 1 (Double Tap, Autofire, Burst Fire). This stacks with Reduced Recoil.
Prerequisite: Reduced Recoil.
Line Up: The Fast hero gains +1 to hit when using a full round action to line up his shot. This stacks with the Dead Aim feat (only one round is needed to gain the benefits from both Line Up and Dead Aim).
Prerequisite: Dead Aim.
Defense Bonus changed as following:
+2
+3
+3
+4
+5
+5
+6
+7
+7
+8
Tough Hero:
Bonus Feats: add Improved Massive Damage Threshold.
Hit Dice: changed to 1d6+6.
Soldier:
Hit Dice: changed to 1d5+5.
1/2 Melee BAB
1/1 Ranged BAB
Tactical Aid replaced with the Tactician feat from Blood & Guts: Military Training Manual.
Martial Artist:
Hit Dice: changed to 1d4+4.
1/2 Ranged BAB
1/1 Melee BAB
Gunslinger:
Hit Dice: changed to 1d5+5.
1/2 Melee BAB
1/1 Ranged BAB
Daredevil:
Hit Dice: changed to 1d5+5.
Damage Threshold +3 bonus changed to +5.
Bodyguard:
Hit Dice: changed to 1d6+6.
Shadow Slayer:
Hit Dice: changed to 1d4+4.
1/1 Melee BAB
1/2 Ranged BAB
Archaic Weaponsmaster:
Hit Dice: changed to 1d5+5.
1/1 Melee BAB
1/2 Ranged BAB
Street Warrior:
Hit Dice: changed to 1d5+5.
1/1 Melee BAB
1/2 Ranged BAB
Swashbuckler:
Hit Dice: changed to 1d4+4.
1/1 Melee BAB
1/2 Ranged BAB
Holy/Unholy Knight:
Hit Dice: changed to 1d5+5.
1/1 Melee BAB
1/2 Ranged BAB
Field Officer:
Prerequesite: Voices of Command (Snap Decision) from Blood & Guts: Military Training Manual.
Hit Dice: changed to 1d4+4.
3/4 Melee BAB
1/1 Ranged BAB
All other classes have their Hit Dice modified using the following rules. Halve the original hit die (d6 becomes d3, d8 becomes d4, etc). Then add a bonus equal to the maximum roll of the die (d3 is +3, d4 is +4, etc). This should result in something like this: dx+x.
We heavily use the B&G MTM, but feel free to ignore the places where I've used it.
The dx+x is an idea we've been toying with, so the Tough Hero doesn't end up with fewer HP than the Fast Hero as easily. And because it sucks rolling a 2 on a HD roll.
In fact you now made the Fast Hero into the Best ‘Physical class’ of the three. How will you remedy that?
The Fast will have to choose where to devote his limited resources:
3 Marksmanship, 2 Speed, and.... ooops, ran out already... so much for any RangedCombat Tree at all, he will just have to not have Reduced Recoil.
If we use the split BABs, then the addition of just one more Fast tree to choose from is even less likely to upset balance.
If anyone really cared that Strong was getting left behind, then just give them PersFireamProf & DTap in the Strong Bonus Feat list. That will bring them right up. Maybe give Toughs the 3 Armor Profs in their bonus feats.... not that a tough would wear armor... that is more the type of thing a strong or fast does (but they dont get Armors either)
One thing that I see is that you now have a Fast Hero class that has about 12 different abilities compared to the Strong’s 9 and the Tough’s 8 (well 12, but five are only different versions of the same ability) added on to its already sizeable advantages: High Defense, more skill points/skills and fail-safe abilities.
In fact you now made the Fast Hero into the Best ‘Physical class’ of the three. How will you remedy that?
So, having 1/1 BAB & 3 Talent trees (Strong Hero) isn't unbalanced against 3/4 BAB & 2 Talent trees (Fast Hero). But having 1/1 BAB & 3 Talent trees (Strong Hero) is unbalanced against 3/4 BAB & 4 Talent trees (modified Fast Hero)?
What I've been trying to do here, is beefing the Fast Hero up to be the Ranged Specialist he's supposed to be.
I believe that the Split BAB makes Strong and Fast completely balanced against eachother. They now have the same BAB (although for different types of combat), relatively balanced talent trees (3vs3). The only "problem" now is the Defense bonus. I guess it could be lowered to 2 to 7 instead of 3 to 8. I won't do that in my campaign, as Ignore Hardness applies also to Armour Damage Reduction (we use Armour as Damage Reduction) which makes it very potent when paired with Melee Smash.
@ Backstabbist: x2
Instead of:
+3
+4
+4
+5
+5
+6
+6
+7
+7
+8
Try:
+2
+3
+3
+4
+5
+5
+6
+7
+7
+8
Edit: changed it in the stuff above. used yours, Master Vega. More balanced now?
@ Backstabbist: x2
+1 ;)