I see this is a bit of a touchy subject around here, so my appologies if you find this material objectionable :| I've been working on a 4e conversion for my much beloved D20M... my friends are fully enamoured with 4th ed and won't look back, so what the heck, eh?
My goal is to preserve the feeling and free multiclassing options of the original publication. I'm still hammering out the details on that one. Also, I haven't looked into armor proficiencies yet, so I left that entry as "simple"
I've covered the basic categories of classes, while trying to preserve or at least pay homage to the feeling of the classes in D20M. I can't claim to have accomplished this entirely, but I still have alot of room to mess around with things with feats and powers. For example, the Tough Hero's damage reduction abilities can be broken down easily into encounter, utility and daily (stance) powers. The Charismatic Hero's Favor ability can be made into a daily power or a feat.
The only one that I'm really not pleased with is the Smart Hero, whom I can't seem to really grasp the core flavour of. I've cobbled together something that is playable, but certainly is vastly lacking compared to the other classes.
Anyways, here's what I've come up with so far, regarding the base classes:
The Strong Hero
Class Traits:
Role: Defender
Power Source: Martial
Key Abilities: Strength
Armor Proficiencies: Simple
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple
Bonus to Defense: Fortitude +2
Hit Points at 1st Level: 15 + Constitution
Hit Points per Level Gained: 6
Healing Surges per Day: 9 + Constitution modifier
Trained Skills: Athletics. Choose any three skills.
Class Features: Extreme Conditioning, Combat Training, Aggressive Brawler, Overkill
Extreme Conditioning: Three times per day, the Strong Hero may apply his Strong Hero level to any strength or constitution based skill or ability roll, but not to attack or damage rolls.
Combat Training: Choose either Slashing, Piercing or Bludgeoning melee attacks as your preferred combat style. When attacking with your preferred melee combat style, you gain a +1 bonus to your attack rolls. Unarmed combat counts as bludgeoning.
Aggressive Brawler: Every time you attack an enemy in melee, you can choose to mark that target. The mark lasts until the end of your next turn. While the target is marked, it takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn’t include you as the target. A creature can only be subjected to one mark at a time, and a new mark supersedes a mark already in place.
Additionally, whenever a marked enemy that is adjacent to you moves, shifts or makes an attack that does not include you, you can make a melee basic attack against that enemy as an immediate interrupt.
Overkill [encounter][minor]: Twice per encounter, but only once per round, the Strong Hero may add twice his strength modifier to the damage of any one melee attack (eg, 1d6+3 becomes 1d6+6, with a +3 strength modifier). He chooses to apply the extra damage after the damage dice are rolled.
The Fast Hero
Class Traits:
Role: Striker
Power Source: Martial
Key Abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom
Armor Proficiencies: Simple
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple
Implement: None
Bonus to Defense: Reflex +2
Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges per Day: 6 + Constitution modifier
Trained Skills: Acrobatics. Choose any 5 skills.
Class Features: Combat Training, Quick Feet, Opportunistic Strike, Knack for Survival, First Strike
First Strike: At the start of an encounter, you have combat advantage against any creatures that have not yet acted in that encounter.
Opportunistic Strike: Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and are using a weapon from the light blade, crossbow, or personal fire arms groups (“Accurate” firearms only), or any small or tiny weapon, an attack you make against that enemy deals extra damage if the attack hits. You decide whether to apply the extra damage after making the damage roll. As you advance in level, your extra damage increases.
1-10: +2d6
11-20: +3d6
21-30: +5d6
Quick Feet: The Fast Hero adds one square of movement to her movement rate.
Knack for Survival [encounter]: The Fast Hero may apply her Fast Hero level to any one defense, after the results of the attack are known.
Combat Training: You gain a +1 bonus to hit with all small and tiny melee weapons. Choose any one small or tiny melee weapon to specialize in. The weapon damage for that weapon in your hands now increases by 1 die size.
The Tough Hero
Class Traits:
Role: Defender
Power Source: Martial
Key Abilities: Constitution, Strength
Armor Proficiencies: Simple
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple
Implement: None
Bonus to Defense: Fortitude +1, Will +1
Hit Points at 1st Level: 15 + Constitution
Hit Points per Level Gained: 6
Healing Surges per Day: 10 + Constitution modifier
Trained Skills: Endurance. Choose any 4 skills.
Class Features: Built Tough, Survivor, Tough as Nails, Hulking Menace
Survivor [Daily]: Once per day, the Tough Hero can apply his constitution modifier to any one saving throw.
Built Tough: The Tough Hero receives the Toughness feat for free. Additionally, three times per day the Tough Hero may apply his Tough Hero level to any strength or constitution based skill or ability roll, but not to attack or damage rolls.
Tough as Nails [encounter]: Once per encounter, the Tough Hero may roll a saving throw to negate a critical hit, decided once the results of the critical are known.
Hulking Menace [At Will][minor action]: The Tough Hero cuts an imposing figure on the battlefield, or at least a persistent one. The Tough Hero can use this to his advantage by getting in his opponents face and making sure they know that he’s going to be stepping in the way, no matter where they go.
This ability marks a target until the end of your next turn. While the target is marked, it takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn’t include you as the target. A creature can only be subjected to one mark at a time, and a new mark supersedes a mark already in place.
Additionally, whenever a marked enemy that is adjacent to you moves, shifts or makes an attack that does not include you, you can make a melee basic attack against that enemy as an immediate interrupt.
The Smart Hero
Class Traits:
Role: Controller
Power Source: Tech
Key Abilities: Intelligence
Armor Proficiencies: Simple
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple
Implement: None
Bonus to Defense: Will +2
Hit Points at 1st Level: 10 + Constitution
Hit Points per Level Gained: 4
Healing Surges per Day: 10 + Constitution modifier
Trained Skills: Craft (any). Choose any 4 skills.
Class Features: Certified Genius, Strategic Mastermind, Exploitive Mind
Certified Genius: The Smart Hero gains the Skill Focus feat at 1st level, 4th level, and again at 7th level. The Skill Focus must be taken in Intelligence or Wisdom based skills.
Exploitive Mind [minor]: A Smart Hero can designate the closest opponent to him to exploit, and analyze his weaknesses. Until the end of his next turn, the Smart Hero may apply his Intelligence modifier to any attack rolls against that opponent.
Strategic Mastermind: If allowed time to plan out an attack (one round) or a project (one minute per complexity rating), the Smart Hero can cause one of two effects:
1) For a number of rounds equal to ½ his Smart Hero level (rounded up), the Smart Hero can grant himself and his allies combat advantage against any enemies.
2) For a number of skill checks equal to ½ his Smart Hero level, the Smart Hero can add his Intelligence modifier to any skill checks made by his allies or himself.
The Dedicated Hero
Class Traits:
Role: Leader
Power Source: Ego
Key Abilities: Wisdom
Armor Proficiencies: Simple
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple
Implement: None
Bonus to Defense: Fortitude +1, Reflex +1, Will +1
Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges per Day: 7 + Constitution modifier
Trained Skills: First Aid or Insight. Choose any 4 skills.
Class Features: Heart and Soul, Inspiring Presence, First to the Fray, Emergency First Aid
Heart and Soul: The Dedicated Hero applies either her Dexterity score modifier, or +2 (which ever is higher), on any successful attempts to aid another character. Additionally, the Dedicated Hero can apply her Dedicated Hero level to any one skill check each day.
Inspiring Presence: When an ally who can see and hear you spends an action point to take an extra action, that ally also regains lost hit points equal to ½ your level plus your charisma modifier or +1, which ever is greater.
First to the Fray: You and each ally within 10 squares that can see and hear you gain a +2 bonus to initiative.
Emergency First Aid [encounter][minor]: Twice per encounter, but only once per round, the Dedicated Hero may apply Emergency First Aid to an ally as a standard action. The Dedicated Hero must be adjacent to the ally. The ally can then use a Healing Surge, regaining the regular amount plus 1d4 hit points. Furthermore, the Dedicated Hero gains a +2 bonus to all First Aid checks.
The Charismatic Hero
Class Traits:
Role: Leader/Striker
Power Source: Ego
Key Abilities: Charisma, Dexterity
Armor Proficiencies: Simple
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple
Bonus to Defense: Reflex +1, Will +1
Hit Points at 1st Level: 12
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges per Day: 7 + Constitution modifier
Trained Skills: Bluff or Diplomacy. Choose any 4 skills.
Class Features: Roguish Charm, Coordinated Attack, Commanding Presence, Precise Strike
Coordinated Attack [Encounter]: Twice per combat, but only once each round, a Charismatic Hero that spends a standard action directing his allies can grant all allies within 10 squares a +1 bonus to their attack rolls until the beginning of his next turn.
Commanding Presence: When an ally who can see and hear you spends an action point to make an extra attack, the ally gains a bonus on the attack roll equal to +1 or one half your intelligence modifier, which ever is greater.
Roguish Charm: The Charismatic Hero gains Skill Focus in Bluff or Diplomacy. Additionally, the Charismatic Hero can apply his Charismatic Hero level as a bonus to any Charisma based skill, three times per day.
Sly Strike: The Charismatic Hero gains +1 damage against any opponent that he has combat advantage against.
Anways, thanks for your input!
Hit Points at 1st Level: 15 + Constitution
Hit Points per Level Gained: 6
Healing Surges per Day: 9 + Constitution modifier
...
Hit Points at 1st Level: 15 + Constitution
Hit Points per Level Gained: 6
Healing Surges per Day: 10 + Constitution modifier
Is there any first level character of average Con that could possibly be taken out by a 2d6 45/9/357mag? The Smart has 10, so it is possible for a 2d6 gun to take him out. And 2 weak classes can get taken out only on Max damage of a 45/357 (assuming they dont have even +1ConBonus)
This doesnt realy grab the essence of d20Modern,
where a Smart1 has 1d6HP and a regular pistol does 2d6.
Heck, average damage for an ElkGun doesnt take out a 1st level Strong... or anyone including Smart. Can a 50BMG be considered a decent manstopper? Not when that 2d12 gun is shot at flataverage combat class Noobs with 25HP.
Razoreface once said, "Try getting shot less."
I guess that doenst apply to 4e.
BUt on the brightside, the legal problems for PCs just gotten a lot easier to handle, since shooting a guy with a 45 is no longer Assault With A Deadly Weapon but has become Battery With Intent To Reduce Vitality Some.
Minion 2 - I thought you said he wasn't a tough hero?
From everything I've been hearing, any attempt at a 4E version of D20M would be closer to Star Wars Saga than anything else.
Perhaps there isn't going to be a generic D20M rewrite for 4E lovers because Saga takes care of it for everyone.
BTW, thanks for the sig fodder, backstabbist.
Is there any first level character of average Con that could possibly be taken out by a 2d6 45/9/357mag? The Smart has 10, so it is possible for a 2d6 gun to take him out. And 2 weak classes can get taken out only on Max damage of a 45/357 (assuming they dont have even +1ConBonus)
This doesn't really grab the essence of d20Modern,
where a Smart1 has 1d6HP and a regular pistol does 2d6.
Heck, average damage for an ElkGun doesnt take out a 1st level Strong... or anyone including Smart. Can a 50BMG be considered a decent manstopper? Not when that 2d12 gun is shot at flataverage combat class Noobs with 25HP.
I really do not agree that a 4e method of hit points will not grab the essence of d20 Modern. I mean, lets be quite frank: getting "hit" in any d20 system, and "taking damage", has never meant getting hit and taking physical damage. Sometimes it does mean that. Sometimes it doesn't. Hit points are an abstraction that rolls vitality and wounds into a single chimera. This is why heroes can gain hit points in linear pattern of growth while guns and vehicles gain hit points logarithmically. I mean, honestly, did you think higher level characters with more hit points then an Abrams tank could actually get hit more then an Abrams tank?
The question is, "is it possible to take out a first level character of average Con with a 2d6 45/9/357mag?" The answer is yes. As such weapons generally kill with a single hit, no such shot from a weapon dose more then graze a target (and often not even that) unless the shot knocks a character bellow 0 hit points. Thus, it is possible to kill a target with a single shot... the shot that kills them is a single shot. Anything else represents the narrative process of a hero running out of heroic luck. The hero does not necessarily get hit, even when a "hit" is rolled and "hit points are damaged."
Low level swingy hit point damage has always been a problem for me. I like lethal gritty feeling combat, at least in Modern games, but that doesn't mean characters dropping on a single unlucky roll of the dice. That's what 1st level Modern (or rather 3e) combat is. And lets be honest, this has never been a design feature meant to emulate realism. That same character who might have died from a single unlucky roll of the dice at level one will have more hit points then a tank only a few levels later. Later level combat is equally problematic. I mean, what happens when a PC has 10d8 hit points? That character can pretty much shrug off shots from guns like robocop. Even a 10d6 character could pretty much do as well. The mechanic designed to make guns and their damage feel gritty and realistic was not hit points, but massive damage threshold. Something along this paradigm is what 4e requires, not the ability to kill a 1st level hero with a single shot while a 10th level hero becomes virtually immune to the gun.
Furthermore, the 4e paradigm has an added advantage when it comes to "lethal and gritty combat." As a character gains higher level, they gain attacks which literally multiply their weapons damage against enemies or creatures. These attacks wont work against a vehicle (in many cases), and thus pistols can not suddenly blow up tanks. But against other flesh and blood creatures, whose hit points are just as abstract as the PCs, the PCs (and NPCs) weapon damage goes up just like their hit points do. This nicely ensures that guns will be lethal (if not necessarily one shot killers) at all levels.
But you are right, the 4e Modern system will require something that takes the place of the massive damage threshold (and preferably which works a little better) in order to capture the essence of d20 Modern. Perhaps characters that are bloodied should receive penalties to their d20 rolls and defenses (to emulate pain). Perhaps an attack that does more damage than a characters bloodied value with a single hit should instantly knock a character bellow 0 hit points (even if it normally would not). Perhaps characters that drop bellow 0 hit points should succumb to "lasting wound" mechanics (which work in a manner similar to 4e poisons and/or diseases), which would emulate real flesh wounds being dealt. Perhaps there should be a limit to the number of healing surges a character regains per extended rest, or a limit to the number of healing surges a character can use during any rest. Perhaps some combination of any or all of the above is in order. But whatever is required, it is not swingy first level combat. This only made combat more "realistic" at first level, not at all levels. And, more importantly, it was not a fun mechanic (at least as far as I am concerned).
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From everything I've been hearing, any attempt at a 4E version of D20M would be closer to Star Wars Saga than anything else.
You should scrutinize what you have been hearing a little more carefully. A 3rd party publisher (Dias Ex Machina) is putting out two modern themed 4E rules games. Amethyst is pretty much an Urban Arcana/Future mix, and it uses 4e rules. NeuroSpasta is a pure Cyberpunk game, and it too will use 4e rules. Moreover, the only comments we have received from WotC developers hints that they WANT to make a 2.0 version of d20 Modern, not if or when they actually will, or what game they will model the new version off of. We just don't have enough information to come to any conclusions yet. All we know is that there are no d20 Modern products scheduled for release until, at least, after 2009, and maybe not even after that. However, the fact that they keep these forums around should give us some hope that they eventually plan to do something with the system.
If the goal is to get the d20Modern "Feel" in a 4e mechanics game,
I've got some suggestions.
- Things happen outside of combat, a lot of things. Classes should reflect their theme there as well
. - Smart Savant needs to specify skills, so we sont have a guy reading up his Spot at the library: Booksmarts, not street savy
. - Fast does not = Thief
Let me list which d20Modern CRB classes have SneakAttack:
Wanna see that list again?
Not only have you introduced Sneak Attack, you made it incredibly prolific:
"Opportunistic Strike: Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy..."
The classic problem of d20Modern low levels: Zeppo the CircusTumbler automaticly has Backstab, but Vito & Tony the mob brawlers cant figure out how hit a guy that isnt looking. And for some reason the Professor cant deduce that guys not looking are easier to kill, nor realize anatamy doesnt have to be ignored when attacking..... Smarts dont get bonus damage for knowing where the medulla oblongata is, but this chick doesShe automaticly get Backstab?
Anyhoo, ditch the Backstab
Folks take Fast to get the Evasion and GunFeats, and Dip for the Def. None of that is reflected in your interpretation. I would mention the skillset, but we know 4e did away with folks without skills
. - Danger & Concern
d20Modern has the mechanic for a 60HP character to take a just 13damage shot with a 12CON and a decent risk going down hard due to MAS. The weapons are scaled to that, as are the class hitdice. It is VERY LIKELY a 1st Smart 1d6 will go down negative HP from a simple 2d6 pistol shot.... not a Save or Wound or Vivacity, but oldschool Too-Many-Pieces-Missing dieing. That is the feel of the game: "Try getting shot less" at low level, cause deadly weapons are deadly. Any mook newb with just a M1Garand has a decent chance of HP Kill on any 1st level guy. And healing up just one bullethole takes a long frickin time, again, "Try getting shot less" is the theme of d20Modern at low levels. At mid level, the theme of d20Modern is all about the Fort Save, and at high levels its all about trying to get some damage onto the Def35 Evasion guys without TPK
. - Drop the entire scale of HP and Healing Surges.
The HP scale in d20Modern is balanced to the weapon damage, by arbitrarily QUADRUPLING the starting HP players have without any corresponding increase in weapon damages has eliminated the core theme "Try to get shot less". If you really want to keep the entire CON score in starting HP, that alone sets the scale pretty wonky before we even talk about classes. What about
Tough: 125% CON +6/level, 3 HealSurge
Smart: 50% CON +4/level, 1 HealSurge
Other: 100% CON +5/Level, 2 HealSurge
That would play the 4e way, without the ludicrous power creep,
and keep relationship between classes well defined
. - Talent Trees
Grow some
Call it what you want, Wounds Luck Chi whatever.
You know full well I am not talking about The shot that put a guy down is a single bullet.
You know I am talking about a NPC with one bullet cant go gun down the PCs first thing in the morning.... or late in the evening due to excessive Healing Surges. A bullet is no longer dangerous, it requires several bullets to start to be a concern to the 1st level PC... and then just Surge that away.
A 2d6 pistol noob was not a threat to a mid/high level char before,
and now he is not a threat to low levels either. The name dont matter,
d20 Smart1 has 1d6 XXXpoints and a pistol takes 2d6 of them, avg 7 will put him down hard.
4e 1st has 10+(10?) XXXpoints, and a 2d6 dont come close to possible to put down hard.
Threat removed.
(I misread that the first time, seeing how it is X+CON the 4eSmart would have average 20, not 10. So no class can be put down hard by a 2d6gun)
The guy that was Probable to get taken down hard by a pistol (1d6HP vs 2d6Damage)
is now impossible to take down hard (20hp vs 2d6 Damage)
Threat removed, aka PowerCreep
Add the healing Surges,and its a Power RunawayFreightTrain
I'll try to give some constructive points this time.
::reads what backstabbist has written after this statement::
Ah... yummy. On to the meat of the discussion. :D
- Things happen outside of combat, a lot of things. Classes should reflect their theme there as well.
He has abilities that grant bonuses to skill checks, which are generally out of combat abilities... so his classes do actually reflect the theme of the class out of combat. I agree that its not really enough yet... but the real area where a class gains out of combat abilities (in 4e) would be in utility powers, and he has not put up any powers for any class as of yet. I think this doubles back to your last point. Talent Trees/Power Lists... this project needs them!
- Smart Savant needs to specify skills, so we sont have a guy reading up his Spot at the library: Booksmarts, not street savy.
This I fully agree with.
- Fast does not = Thief
Let me list which d20Modern CRB classes have SneakAttack:
Wanna see that list again?
Not only have you introduced Sneak Attack, you made it incredibly prolific:
"Opportunistic Strike: Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy..."
The classic problem of d20Modern low levels: Zeppo the CircusTumbler automaticly has Backstab, but Vito & Tony the mob brawlers cant figure out how hit a guy that isnt looking. And for some reason the Professor cant deduce that guys not looking are easier to kill, nor realize anatamy doesnt have to be ignored when attacking..... Smarts dont get bonus damage for knowing where the medulla oblongata is, but this chick does
Anyhoo, ditch the Backstab
Folks take Fast to get the Evasion and GunFeats, and Dip for the Def. None of that is reflected in your interpretation. I would mention the skillset, but we know 4e did away with folks without skills.
1) Having backstab in a 4th edition version of d20 Modern will not be a problem. The whole reason it was a problem in the 3rd edition version was because it made massive damage threshold attacks too easy to make. Someone with backstab could very realistically force a massive damage threshold save on an enemy every round. Using 4rth edition mechanics, something else would be required. The massive damage threshold mechanics of 3e would not work, because an attacks damage will scale with level. Medium to higher level attacks, keeping to the 3e damage threshold mechanics, would force a massive damage save with every attack. Some other mechanic, some new mechanic, will have to replace the damage threshold mechanic of 3rd edition. This means that sneak attack might not/probably will no be as big of an issue. But...
2) Backstabbist is right. The fast hero was supposed to represent a larger number of potential builds then just sneaky thief. Keeping the classic names of classes also keeps the classic paradigm those names are enmeshed with. While I don't agree that all characters should be able to perform a sneak attack (there is more to it then just anatomical knowledge or knowing that its easier to hit a person from behind), nor do I agree that none should have it, I do agree that not all fast hero types are the sort of character that should be able to backstab. I am not sure how you want to deal with that. Perhaps the fast hero should be a striker due to its nice gun powers (would reflect the fact that the fast hero was the gun class of the 3e paradigm of the game) and the base class should grant some sort of defense/shifty/evasive skirmisher mechanic instead. Think of them as the "barbarian striker with a gun." I mean this not in a sense of primal powers or rages, but rather that barbarians don't have anything like sneak attack or hunters mark and are still considered strikers. Barbarians are strikers because they have high multiplication weapon powers usable with any weapon. The added befit of this method is that it will allow fast heroes to make both good pistol and sniper builds, which is key. Fast heroes were snipers as well as gunslingers, but your version would only make a good gunslinger.
- Danger & Concern
d20Modern has the mechanic for a 60HP character to take a just 13damage shot with a 12CON and a decent risk going down hard due to MAS. The weapons are scaled to that, as are the class hitdice. It is VERY LIKELY a 1st Smart 1d6 will go down negative HP from a simple 2d6 pistol shot.... not a Save or Wound or Vivacity, but oldschool Too-Many-Pieces-Missing dieing. That is the feel of the game: "Try getting shot less" at low level, cause deadly weapons are deadly. Any mook newb with just a M1Garand has a decent chance of HP Kill on any 1st level guy. And healing up just one bullethole takes a long frickin time, again, "Try getting shot less" is the theme of d20Modern at low levels. At mid level, the theme of d20Modern is all about the Fort Save, and at high levels its all about trying to get some damage onto the Def35 Evasion guys without TPK.
Does the "try getting shot less" mantra actually work? What can a player actually do to get shot less other then not play? I mean, I suppose duck and cover is a good response. Certainly duck and cover should be a very important part of any d20 Modern ruleset, but that does not necessarily mean that the 4e method of hit points is not a good method of doing things. I always felt that characters had too few hit points at 1st level in d20 Modern. My house rules on hit points and a condition track actually increased PC hit points at first level for precisely this reason. Likewise, the Fort Save mechanic will not work with 4e. But I agree with the spirit of what you are saying if not the exact words. In order to make 4e "feel" like d20 Modern, some sort of rules which increase the "gritty factor" of the game will need to be included. Just to re-iterate what I sated above, specifically the sort of options that a 4e d20 Modern game will need in order to work well:
...the 4e Modern system will require something that takes the place of the massive damage threshold (and preferably which works a little better) in order to capture the essence of d20 Modern. Perhaps characters that are bloodied should receive penalties to their d20 rolls and defenses (to emulate pain). Perhaps an attack that does more damage than a characters bloodied value with a single hit should instantly knock a character bellow 0 hit points (even if it normally would not). Perhaps characters that drop bellow 0 hit points should succumb to "lasting wound" mechanics (which work in a manner similar to 4e poisons and/or diseases), which would emulate real flesh wounds being dealt. Perhaps there should be a limit to the number of healing surges a character regains per extended rest, or a limit to the number of healing surges a character can use during any rest. Perhaps some combination of any or all of the above is in order...
- Drop the entire scale of HP and Healing Surges.
The HP scale in d20Modern is balanced to the weapon damage, by arbitrarily QUADRUPLING the starting HP players have without any corresponding increase in weapon damages has eliminated the core theme "Try to get shot less". If you really want to keep the entire CON score in starting HP, that alone sets the scale pretty wonky before we even talk about classes. What about
Tough: 125% CON +6/level, 3 HealSurge
Smart: 50% CON +4/level, 1 HealSurge
Other: 100% CON +5/Level, 2 HealSurge
That would play the 4e way, without the ludicrous power creep,
and keep relationship between classes well defined.
This I really disagree with. I don't think the hit points are the problem. I think OTHER mechanics need to be implemented which make character feel like they don't want to get hit. I don't think lower hit points is the right answer. Saying that a character who takes their bloodied value in damage with a single hit immediately drops down to at least -1 hit point might work well, though perhaps a saving throw to avoid being dropped down to -1 hit point is in order. This mechanic could take the place of the massive damage threshold of 3e. This number would scale with level (just like everything else in 4e). It would also mean that if a first level character took more then 1/2 their hit points in damage they would get dropped with a single shot, and this seems quite doable. Thus it would still be in a players interest to "not get shot."
I also want to point out that there is no power creep with 4e. 4e D&D is no more or less powerful then 3e D&D. Players might seem like they start a little stronger, but low level monsters are scaled up equally. This means that in ratio everything is about the same. More importantly, however, characters do not gain in power as much with level as they did in 3e. In 3e a 5th level person could fly. You can't do that until 16th level in 4e. In 3e a 11th level wizard could easily deal 11d6 damage. In 4e you are looking at 2-4d6 tops. Most higher level characters were actually scaled down in power quite a bit. The exception would be the drastically underpowered characters, such as the fighter.
- Talent Trees
Grow some.
Well... in keeping to the 4e paradigm you mean powers not talents, and power lists not talent trees... but semantics. Backstabbist is right. The meat of 4e rests in its powers and the meat of d20 Modern is in its talent trees. Its sort of hard to really make comments on your classes until more of the classes exist...
One other thing to keep in mind: the single class/PP 4e method of multiclassing will not work as well with a d20 Modern style game. I am not advocating 3e style multiclassing, but allowing characters to take multiclass feats in more then just one other class might be in order. Think the bards ability, but all classes gain it automatically.
CyberDave
Call it what you want, Wounds Luck Chi whatever.
You know full well I am not talking about The shot that put a guy down is a single bullet.
You know I am talking about a NPC with one bullet cant go gun down the PCs first thing in the morning.... or late in the evening due to excessive Healing Surges. A bullet is no longer dangerous, it requires several bullets to start to be a concern to the 1st level PC... and then just Surge that away.
A 2d6 pistol noob was not a threat to a mid/high level char before,
and now he is not a threat to low levels either. The name dont matter,
d20 Smart1 has 1d6 XXXpoints and a pistol takes 2d6 of them, avg 7 will put him down hard.
4e 1st has 10+(10?) XXXpoints, and a 2d6 dont come close to possible to put down hard.
Threat removed.
(I misread that the first time, seeing how it is X+CON the 4eSmart would have average 20, not 10. So no class can be put down hard by a 2d6gun)
The guy that was Probable to get taken down hard by a pistol (1d6HP vs 2d6Damage)
is now impossible to take down hard (20hp vs 2d6 Damage)
Threat removed, aka PowerCreep
Add the healing Surges,and its a Power RunawayFreightTrain
Please reread both my post above and bellow your last post. Some sort of new mechanic would be required in a 4e d20 Modern game. This new mechanic would have to take the place of the massive damage threshold, and once again make single attacks a threat to a character. However, neither healing surges nor starting hit points are the problem. All they do is help to narrow the gap between low and high levels (so that there is not as much difference in play at these different tiers). With the right "gritty" mechanic, this will actually be a benefit and not a boon. It will mean that the game remains gritty at all tiers of play as well, something d20 Modern 1.0 did not.
Also, see my last post for my comments on "power creep." 4e does not have power creep. Power creep would indicate that the general power of the game is greater. It is not. Higher level characters are usually, in most ways, less powerful then they were in 3e. Lower level characters might seem more powerful, but this is only the case if one examines them without the frame of reference provided by the rest of the game. Lower level creatures are more powerful as well. The end result is that PCs have as much trouble against the same type of NPCs that they always did. It also means that when a lower level character hits a higher level character, the result is potentially more threatening then it was before.
I don't think the hit points are the problem. I think OTHER mechanics need to be implemented which make character feel like they don't want to get hit
Some sort of new mechanic would be required in a 4e d20 Modern game.
But you DO think that the gobs if IncreasedHP are a problem:
1) Having backstab in a 4th edition version of d20 Modern will not be a problem. The whole reason it was a problem in the 3rd edition version was because it made massive damage threshold attacks too easy to make. Someone with backstab could very realistically force a massive damage threshold save on an enemy every round.
Why is it now ok?
Ok, because we will just quadruple guys HP and not use the 2d0Modern MAS gamestyle.... which kinda is asking why bother with some Hybrid Crossover if we will have gobs of HP, Add Backstabs, and get rid of MAS..... ok, D&D with
Dont consider it ok to add Backstabs because we are making guys bulletproof,
instead, dont make guys bulletproof.
Dont consider we need to not use MAS because we add Backstabbs and made guys bulletproof,
instead, dont make guys bulletproof.
There is no school to attend to learn how not to get shot.
Just play Kick The Door style with 1st level guys for a while,
and folks learn what happens to DoorKickers, leading to them partaking in "Think, then Act", which yeilds "Try getting shot less".
For a straight 4e D&D game, you think gobs of HP are fine. So be it.
But to be a d20Modern style game in 4e, why are gobs of HP required?
Why powercreep all aspects of d20Modern to say its a crossover,
4e mechanics dont require insane quantities of HP,
in D&D it just happened to get them, but the mechanics can scale down for a non-standard 4e based game.... like say... a d20Modern 4e mechanics game
Explain the need to have eveyone in a d20Modern game get to start with over 20hp and gobs of selfhealing.
As opposed to using a 4e mechanic of reasonable scale HP & healing
that puts the fear of guns back into 1st level guys.
Why cant you play a d20Modern game of 4e mechanics with guys that only have 4 to 14 HP and just a few SelfHeals when a pistol does the same ole d20Modern 2d6 damage?
Because PC will -HP die as frequently as in d20Modern?
uh... isnt that the point, to be like d20Modern instead of D&D with weak guns?
But you DO think that the gobs if IncreasedHP are a problem:
No I don't... In fact, I don't even think 4e gives you gobs of HP. Higher level characters end up with less HP then equivalent 3e characters. Only the lower level characters gain more HP. And the amount that they get more HP by is not even that much.
Why is it now ok?
Having backstab in a 4e paradigm version of the d20 Modern rules will not be a problem because it is IMPOSSIBLE to incorporate MAS in its 3e format. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a wide variety of reasons. The most prominent reason is that after the first couple levels characters will routinely roll over their opponents Constitution score with higher level powers. Powers scale with level. A 2d6 gun (if that is what a gun will still deal in a 4e version of d20 Modern) will be dealing much more then 2d6 damage with higher level attacks. Some of the level 29 daily powers deal as much as 7 times a weapons base damage dice. That's 14d6 with a pistol. Now, I don't know exactly how the designers will deal with this. Dias Ex Machina chose to deal with this by lowering gun damage a bit. The official version may adhere to that choice, or do something else, if it ever comes out. Hell, in a strictly d20 Modern style game, where guns are supposed to be superior to melee weapons (if you ask me), I'm really not sure I see a problem with leaving their damage dice as is. But the point is: no matter what they do, attacks will scale with level. That is part of the point of D&D 4e. If attacks are scaling with level, then having a flat Constitution score act like a MDT throughout the entire game doe snot work. Characters will routinely roll over this number as they gain levels.
Ok, because we will just quadruple guys HP and not use the 2d0Modern MAS gamestyle.... which kinda is asking why bother with some Hybrid Crossover if we will have gobs of HP, Add Backstabs, and get rid of MAS..... ok, D&D withgunswith WEAK guns.
d20 Modern, from the point of view of game mechanics, is essentially D&D with weak guns. That is what d20 Modern is. There were some rules implemented in order to make weak weapon damage more threatening, but lets be honest, what character actually ever fails their MAS after the very early levels of the game?
A 4e d20 Modern will, mechanically, be D&D with guns as well. That doesn't mean that that is the sort story you need to run with the system. God knows I never ran a D&D with guns storyline game. But mechanically, that is what the system will essentially be. Like the first edition of d20 Modern, one can hope that a 4e d20 Modern will incorporate rules designed to make things a little more gritty and threatening. Hopefully, a new version of d20 Modern will succeed at making these rules work better.
A 4e system of mechanics does not give characters quadruple HP. That is a huge over-exaggeration. Where a 1st level d20 Modern character gains max hit points for their hit die (between 6-10 hit pints, depending on class) + a Constitution modifier a 4e character gains a similar amount of hit points (between 10-15 or so) + their Constitution score. The standard d20 Modern character then gains between 3.5-6.5 average hit points per level (depending on class) + their Constitution score. A 4e d20 Modern character would gain about 5-6 hit points per level, without a Constitution score modifier. The result is that the 3e character will have more hit points at higher levels and the 4e character will have more hit points at lower levels. I like that.
So why bother with some hybrid crossover? You don't. You make a complete crossover, which is what the original poster is trying to do with this thread. You just try to capture the feel of d20 Modern much like 4e tries to capture the feel of D&D. In both cases, the edition will be brand new. The framework of the rules will be brand new. Some old rules wont work. Some new rules that would not have worked before will. That is what a new edition means.
Dont consider it ok to add Backstabs because we are making guys bulletproof, instead, dont make guys bulletproof. Dont consider we need to not use MAS because we add Backstabbs and made guys bulletproof, instead, dont make guys bulletproof.
Don't make guys bulletproof? After the early levels of d20 Modern, characters were already bullet proof. They had more than enough hit points to ignore shot after shot of weapons. There was no reason to duck and cover. And the rules as written MDT and MASaves were so easy to overcome that anyone using the RAW barely ever saw a character fail a MASave throw, ever. As narukagami just stated in another thread:
Wait, someone passed level 1 actually FAILED a MDT save?!?!?! Thats a first.
4e does not make people bullet proof. It makes hit points work as intended. It ensures that the game plays using the same basic principles at both higher and lower levels, because effects scale with level. Characters don't start out dying from one hit and then becoming immune to single martial attacks. Instead, characters can take one hit at lower levels, one hit at higher levels, but hits, from weapons or otherwise, are threatening at ALL levels. In the process, however, certain preexisting mechanics no longer work. They need to be translated into new mechanics. When attacks with weapons scale with levels, a flat constitution score is too low for a massive damage threshold. As this number is too low to be used in a 4e system, and backstab does not add anywhere near the number of dice it once did, including it in the game will no longer drastically mess up class power balance. It can be included without breaking anything. And the game can still add a MAS style power. Perhaps something that looks like this:
Massive Damage Threshold: If a creature takes damage greater than or equal to its bloodied value with a single hit, the creature must make a saving throw. If it fails the saving throw it drops to zero hit points and is dying (see death and dying page 295 of the Players Handbook).
I don't know that this will be enough by itself, but its certainly a start. And it certainly seems realistic that monsters and PCs will do damage equal to bloodied levels with a single hit. It will certainly happen fairly frequently at early levels. At higher levels it will be a little more rare, but use of higher level powers, especially daily powers, still makes it a reasonable possibility. And this time, when it does happen, as saving throws are always a fixed 55/45% chance of success/failure characters WILL actually fail this check. In fact, this mechanic is more likely to see a failed MAS in a 4e game then the RAW MAS of d20 Modern does in current d20 Modern games. For those who still feel that it does not happen often enough, they can add in a house rule to change the exact numbers used. Perhaps 1/2 a characters bloodied value instead of a characters bloodied value. Such mechanics should work a good deal better then the mechanics of 3e did. And, as they scale with level, and backstab does not do anywhere near the amount of damage it did in 3e, including it will not break the system.
There is no school to attend to learn how not to get shot.
Just play Kick The Door style with 1st level guys for a while,
and folks learn what happens to DoorKickers, leading to them partaking in "Think, then Act", which yeilds "Try getting shot less".
See above. Appropriate mechanics added to the 4e system will lead to this style of play anyway.
For a straight 4e D&D game, you think gobs of HP are fine. So be it.
But to be a d20Modern style game in 4e, why are gobs of HP required? A crossover, 4e mechanics dont require insane quantities of HP,
in D&D it just happened to get them, but the mechanics can scale down for a non-standard 4e based game...
See above. The game does not have "gobs of HP." It starts out with higher HP and ends up with lower HP. This method of HP gain works better, because, in combination with the scaling attack damage, it avoids the "die with one hit at low levels and take a tank shell to the chest at higher levels" gameplay of RAW d20 Modern. Scale down HP without changing the way 4e attacks work and people will die too easily. Return to the 3e d20 Modern method of lower low level HP, higher high level HP, and attacks that do not scale with level, and you return to the days of dieing at low levels while out tanking tanks at high levels. These options are not acceptable to me. The existing 4e mechanics work better, and are thus preferable.
Explain the need to have eveyone in a d20Modern game get to start with over 20hp and gobs of selfhealing.
Gobs of selfhealing? A character can use 1 healing surge with a second wind per encounter. Thats 1/4th of their hit points. To be able to heal more they need to have someone use appropriate healing capabilities on them... such as a healing spell in urban arcana. Healing surges don't give people gobs of self healing, it limits how much others can heal them.
Getting hit at first level is not "no problem." In the rules as written, powers at 1st level will deal 1[w], 2[w], or 3[w] damage (depending on if they are at will, encounter, or daily, and what other effects they have). 3[w] damage, which can be dealt at first level, with a 2d6 firearm, is 6d6 damage. Even if one reduces base gun damage dice, this is a very hefty potential of damage to take from a single attack. With the ability to deal multiples of damage even at first level, a little more first level hit points are required. What is more, a lot of players don't like how few hit points characters gain at 1st level according to the 3e RAW. The "please don't sneeze on me" joke comes to mind. There is nothing wrong with slightly reducing the rift in capability between high and low level characters. There is no reason why a 1st level character should die in a single hit, and a higher level character should be able to out tank a tank. The higher level character should not have as much hit points, the lower level character should not have so few. What is more, as I pointed out above, couple this with a new MAS mechanic (based of something like the bloodied value) and characters will end up fearing getting hit more then they ever did in RAW d20 Modern.
As opposed to using a 4e mechanic of reasonable scale HP & healing that puts the fear of guns back into 1st level guys.
There is nothing reasonable with the current d20 Modern standard. There is nothing reasonable with virtually infinite healing if the DM allows wands of healing in an urban arcana game. There is nothing reasonable with first level heroes who die in one hit, and higher level characters who can take tank shells to the chest. There is nothing reasonable about fixed weapon damage which becomes less and less dangerous as the game goes on. Someone pointing a gun at you should ALWAYS be a threat. I can live with the logic "that they are lower level then me so I should not have to worry too much." I can not live with the logic "I'm level 14. Shoot your gun. It will take you at least 7 shots to faze me anyway." I can live with 1 shot not taking down a foe on an average hit at first level, though a good shot still can, but the same is true at later levels. I can't live with 1 shot will usually take down a foe at first level, but at 14th level it never will.
Why cant you play a d20Modern game of 4e mechanics with guys that only have 4 to 14 HP and just a few SelfHeals when a pistol does the same ole d20Modern 2d6 damage?
Because PC will -HP die as frequently as in d20Modern?
uh... isnt that the point, to be like d20Modern instead of D&D with weak guns?
Read above. PCs will die just as frequently using a 4e system of mechanics as they would have using a 3e system of mechanics. At best, they won't die from a single hit quite as often. Including something like the massive damage threshold rule I wrote above, and single hits will still be a threat at all levels...
Hell, you REALLY want to make sure people always duck and cover, write a rule that says that unless you have concealment or cover to your target, they deal extra damage against you with a firearm. Make the extra damage the amount granted above as sneak attack damage.
In either case, my point is that a 4e system of rules has a potential of feeling a good deal more dangerous throughout the entirety of the game then d20 Modern RAW ever did. What is more, the system is so modular that it will be a good deal easier to write house rules for the system that make the system yet more gritty and lethal. There is no need to have so few hit points at first level when weapon damage can already be multiplied at first level with certain attacks, especially not with extra d20 Moderneque "lethality" rules.
I am not here to point at the flaws of 4e, I was going to try to port d20Modern to it. But you appear to believe you will be using every aspect of 4e D&D without any changes for this project.
Ok, we're done then: Use 4e without any changes.
That means PCs wont be required to take the ability Basic classes for 3 levels and the rest of d20Modern junk, like Burstfire, since that is not a D&D4e thing. If you find the 4e mechanic skinned to D&D to be unchangable to other genres, ok.... just another flaw with the mechanics.
or
we could admit that not every little power or stat of D&D using 4e mechnics will be followed verbatim for a d20Modern port to 4e mechanics.
You follow whatever path you want.
I was going to see what d20Modern using powers & the rest of 4e mechanics skinned for Modern would be like. But I guess reskinning 4e mechanics to Modern aint what you wanted, you just want more classes like the rest in D&D4e With Guns.
CD
I am not here to point at the flaws of 4e, I was going to try to port d20Modern to it. But you appear to believe you will be using every aspect of 4e D&D without any changes for this project.
Not at all, and you already know that. In fact, I have made a number of statements to the effect that some changes will be required already. For example:
One other thing to keep in mind: the single class/PP 4e method of multiclassing will not work as well with a d20 Modern style game. I am not advocating 3e style multiclassing, but allowing characters to take multiclass feats in more then just one other class might be in order. Think the bards ability, but all classes gain it automatically.
and I have repeatedly stated that new rules in order to increase the grittiness and lethality of 4e will be required. There is a link in my sig to some house rules I wrote... exactly the sort of things that I feel will be required in a 4e d20 Modern.
But whatever a 4e d20 Modern will be, it will still be built on the 4e paradigm. That means new classes. New powers. Guns. Feats/powers that relate to guns. But 4e mechanics. It does not mean using 3e style hit points. Those hit points were removed from the 4e paradigm for a reason. There is no reason to port them back in. Trying to do so screws over major elements of the mechanics of 4e. It breaks the entire balance of the power system, which already significantly ups the lethality of weapons attacks. At that point in time one may as well give up trying to make a 4e version of d20 Modern, because what you are advocating. You are advocating that he continue to use 3e rules, even where doing so will later majorly screw over the balance of his project.
Re-read the OP post. He is talking about turning 4e into d20 Modern, not d20 Modern into 4e. His base product is 4e. It is from 4e that he will be making changes. He wants those changes to capture as much of the d20 Modern aesthetic and flavor as possible... but his friends are enamored with 4e and that is the base system he wants to use/base this project off of.
What he is doing is taking 4e mechanics, the whole of them, and then trying to insert d20 Modern flavor using whatever changes are necessary. His first change is new classes.
A lot of your suggestions were pertinent. While backstab can be added into the game, it doesn't really suit the fast hero. The savant change needs to be made. But dropping the 4e scale of hit points, and use of healing surges? That's a really bad move. It will both screw over balance, and it will fail to make use of the incredible potential that the 4e system has of being turned into a gritty lethal feeling system. Healing surges don't grant unlimited healing. Characters can only use a second wind to use a healing surge once per encounter. What healing surges do is limit the amount of times a player can be healed in an encounter/day period. That is the building block of gritty. 4e does not implement "power creep" or "quadruple hit points." It increases hit points at 1st level, but then makes players gain hit points slower, to the point where higher level characters have less hit points in 4e then they used to. This reduces the drastic power curve of hit points, and, in combination with powers that scale with level, increases the lethality of the game. That area of 4e rules should not be removed. Instead, new rules should be added that up the "gritty lethality" ante (so to speak).
I advise that he keep the hit points mechanics of 4e as is. He will, however, need to add in some sort of "gritty" rules to replace the MAS of d20 Modern. That is a very important element of Modern, and something needs to replace it.
Check out the "Putting the Gritty Back into 4e" House Rules in my sig. Those are the kind of house rules I think 4e d20 Modern requires.
Ok, down to the nitty gritty...
4e is designed around the following 4 class variants: Striker, Defender, Leader, Controller. I tried to fit each of the d20 characters into those slots, and give them class abilities comparable to their d&d variants as a starting point. The Fast Hero fills the spot of the striker, and you tend to need that striker taking down brutes and other high hit point thugs, or the party is going to have difficulties.
Rather than "sneak attack", I kind of see the fast hero as slipping in quickly and hitting the enemy hard before they can react...or taking advantage of a combar error on the enemies part (opportunity strikes?). Extra damage, but not "sneak attack" (yes, old 2e player as well) per se. I allowed her to choose stealth or acrobatics simply because either seems viable.
As for the hit points of the Tough hero and the Strong hero, they are both Defenders...thus equal hit points and surges. That said, the Tough Hero is a monster, as far as I'm concerned... his survivablity is through the roof (and should be!) compared to anyone else.
BALANCE ISSUES WITH RULES:
- had not considered what I was going to do with the massive damage threshold. For the moment, I was going to keep it at 3e levels (equal to Con. value). After reading some of your comments, I do realize this is not a particularily good idea...that said, I think perhaps that the massive damage threshold perhaps should be set near a characters bloodied value, oor be based off of it... maybe a percentage of it?
The other thing I was considering was making them roll a saving throw (an unmodified roll against DC 10, +1 to your roll if you take the human perseverance feat), as opposed to the regular Fort DC20. For higher levels, it's not uncommon to find elite and other "real" baddies with a +5 bonus to their saving throws... so it's not quite so much an insta kill as it might seem.
- Weapons from 3.5e have not changed, damage dice wise, when converted into 4e. With that, I figured that 3e guns would be the same. Some would have qualities changed (ie, masterwork guns have a higher trained bonus to hit, and can be used by the fast hero for opportunistic attacks etc, others may have the High Crit feature...shot guns perhaps?). Keep in mind, on a critical, you deal maximum damage with the weapon used. (24hp for a 12ga. + any bonus damage).
- I have purposely not gone into at wills, enounters, daily's or utillity powers until I can nail down the base classes. I've tried to add in abilities that pertain to things outside of combat, but these are so far only my first draft attempts at the classes.
- MULTICLASSNG: I HATE 4e multiclassing. I'm attempting to come up with a set of rules that allows for reasonable 4e multiclassing. To me, the brilliance of D20 was it was the first REALLY EASY multiclassing system (both 2e and 3.0e was painful). To that end, here's my ideas so far:
1) Your primary class is the one that you begin the game with (or choose first for advanced starting levels).
2) You may multiclass freely into any other class, but your primary class can't be more than 2 levels behind your multiclass.
3) Your total character level is considered your primary class level. You may choose any ability appropriate to your primary class level. Your multiclass level is the actual level you have attained in that class, and you may only take multiclass abilities and powers appropriate to that level.
4) You can retrain existing abilities as multiclass abilities, following the standard rules.
5) You advane as per your primary class, and gain none of the class abilities of the multiclass. You only gain access to the powers.
Now, this means I have to make sure that the original classes can do their class job better than a multiclass character. This is one of the other reasons that I have the Fast Hero with a striker damage ability, because she will be able to do it better than anyonen else...even if they multiclass to be a bit more like her.
Her abilitiies should stack nicely with her striker powers, while other people's abilities will simply work well enough with striker powers... but not be able to outclass the striker.
The strong hero should be the best at physical combat, the tough hero should be the stickiest of all the classes, the fast hero should deal the most single target damage, the smart hero should have controlling tricks up his sleeve, the dedicated should be the most well rounded of the bunch, and the charismatic should be slightly less well rounded (secondary leader) than the dedicated but have a higher damage output (secondary striker).
GUNS:
There are a few other ideas that I'm toying with, but at one time I was thinking about running this (and this is what really prompted the conversion) as a fallout game. I was going to incorporate blasters from SWD20, but make the blaster attack against the PC's Reflex defense...and then have armor provide DR (1/2 of AC?) instead of AC. Perhaps having guns behave much the same would be an interesting change?
Crits would bypass DR, going straight to hit points and inflicting maximum damage (as per regular rules). Reflex defenses are quite often lower than AC, and it also gives the feeling of "get out of the way/get hit less" if you're trying to dodge them, rather than pack on plate mail and laugh as someone with an M60 tries to fill you full of lead...but can't because they can't hit your AC of 24 or whatever.
That alone would make guns scarier, without changing them significantly.
Other things, like shot guns... some of them should have a firing arc, rather than a single line of attack... a sawed off shot gun (buck shsot) with a 2 -3 square close blast would be a terrifying room clearing weapon! (squares in 4e representing a 5ft range incriment). Add in high crit (critting on a 19-20) and you have a monster. The combat shotty's, although maybe not using a blast, would probably have the vicious (or whatever it is) property...whatever number listed after is the minimum damage the weapon can do, and you keep rolling until you get that number or better.
Agree? Disagree? Got something better? I'm all ears!
Anyways, please keep the comments and suggestions coming!
I'll stick to staying away from 4e.
I'm not one much for making stuff up to make things work
Oh...and what is this Savant class? I'm not familiar with it.
If there is an existing D20 modern class that better fits a striker model, I'd be more than happy to convert that... it's just that I only have the D20 Modern book, which is prob ably also the first printing of it (and may be missing out on some of the lovely stuff you luckier folks have). Despite my extolling the virtues of D20M to my friends since I got it, it never caught on with them...so I never ended up expanding my D20M library.
I'm not fully set on the fast character doing sneak attack damage per se, but I do believe the Fast Hero should have striker potential that is independant of powers. Perhaps a flat bonus die or extra damage based on a stat or whatever. That said, I always envisioned the fast hero as a nimble, quick footed...and lethal... opponent...not so much a gymnast. :|
Your multiclass system is awful. You would have been much better served going with my "every class can multiclass like the bard" system.
I have never liked the idea of guns which attack Reflex Defense instead of AC.
And when you say SWD20 guns, do you mean the 3d weapons from star wars Saga? Do you have any idea how powerful those guns will be? 2d guns would be pretty powerful in the face of weapon damage multiplication powers. 3d guns would be... well... epic to say the least.
Dias Ex Machina has some nice ideas on how to work guns. Check out there work. Until an official 4e d20 Modern game is released, I was planning to use their Amethyst and NeuroSpasta to run my 4e d20 Modern games.
Also, see my signature. It has some "gritty" rules in it... Including a 4e version of the Massive Damage Threshold rule.
You should scrutinize what you have been hearing a little more carefully. A 3rd party publisher (Dias Ex Machina) is putting out two modern themed 4E rules games. Amethyst is pretty much an Urban Arcana/Future mix, and it uses 4e rules. NeuroSpasta is a pure Cyberpunk game, and it too will use 4e rules. Moreover, the only comments we have received from WotC developers hints that they WANT to make a 2.0 version of d20 Modern, not if or when they actually will, or what game they will model the new version off of. We just don't have enough information to come to any conclusions yet. All we know is that there are no d20 Modern products scheduled for release until, at least, after 2009, and maybe not even after that. However, the fact that they keep these forums around should give us some hope that they eventually plan to do something with the system.
I probably should have chose my words more carefully.
I am well aware of what Dias Ex Machina is working on, yet without being able to read over and/or use what they produce, I can't form my own opinion about a 4E version of D20 Modern (hence my using "From what I've heard...").
As it stands, I cannot wrap my head around the idea of a 4E Modern. The power system is what ruins the idea for me. For magic and such, I don't have a problem with powers, it's when it comes to physical might and abilities that I have a hard time.
My knowledge of SWSaga is limited to what I've skimmed through, as I don't have the manual (yet).
Everything else I have to say has already been said, so I'll leave things here.
You guys still working on this?
I'm personally waiting for Dias Ex Machina to release Amethyst before I put more work into my 4e conversion project. I've put way too many hours into house rules in my life without getting paid. I'm hoping that Dias Ex Machina's product will do the majority of the work for me, and then I can make a few slight tweaks to the system. Based on what they have released so far (as teaser material) this is what I envision myself doing once it does get released:
In order to run the game as a straight d20 Modern style game I will need to:
a) Create a set of rules that stops the need for "upgraded equipment with level." IE: At level 1-20 (I doubt I am really going to worry about epic or demi-god style games for a Modern gaming environment) you continue to use the same weapons. The need for + bonuses from magic items or higher PL equipment (the Amethyst guys translated PL as a mechanical "enchantment" bonus) will instead be worked into automatic bonuses granted for higher levels.
b) implement my "more gritty 4e health rules" (located in my signature).
c) allow only the techan and martial classes.
d) remove the "1 class multiclassing only" rule, and thereby allow all classes to freely gain feats from all martial or techan classes (at the cost of feats spent). However, I will need to find some way to balance the fact that multiclass feats in the 4e RAW are more powerful than regular feats, as players are normally only allowed to take one. I will probably need to scale down the power of all multiclassing feats to put them more in line with regular feats.
But, without seeing Amethysts rules, that is all I can be sure of for now.
Life's about to get really hectic, so I'm not sure when I'm going to be able to put thoughts to paper for the next little while...
Each class (tough, smart etc) has its own set of "specialist" powers, that only people of that "class" can access. That aside, craft a large number of common at wills, encounter, daily and utility powers.
This would allow people who want to build their characters as they see them, mostly free of class restraints, to whatever degree they like. The class powers should then be used to reinforce the flavour of the base class... but not be the mandatory power selection that 4e currently has.
This would do away with the need to multiclass entirely, and, do away with all the nasty issues that come up with that.
Thoughts?
Am I included in "you guys?" If so:
a) Create a set of rules that stops the need for "upgraded equipment with level." IE: At level 1-20 (I doubt I am really going to worry about epic or demi-god style games for a Modern gaming environment) you continue to use the same weapons. The need for + bonuses from magic items or higher PL equipment (the Amethyst guys translated PL as a mechanical "enchantment" bonus) will instead be worked into automatic bonuses granted for higher levels.
Cyber-Dave: relating to the need for enhanced weapons, perhaps you can write a few rules concerning a favored weapon. Its not so much that the weapon in particular is any more special or high tech than any other, but that the character has learned every quirk and microscopic flaw in the device such that they can be more accurate with it than with another model that is otherwise identical. Combine this with personal customization for ergonomics to justify the higher bonuses and it should be reasonable.
I am reminded of the scene in The Good, The Bad and The Ugly when the outlaw walked into the gun shop and took parts from several different guns to produce one that he could excell at. In older editions, I would have just called it masterwork, but it would also serve as a good example for this. I am also reminded of Chuck Connor's rifle in The Rifleman.
Familiarity + Customization = +5 at high level