Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 deadsquidwalking Mar 14, 2010 20:09:49	The title of the thread says it all really: I'm trying to build a free form magic system for my game and I'm not entirely sure how to go about it.  I've already decided that characters can gain access to magic by investing in skills and feats instead of just taking levels in an advanced class as well as what magic can do: Give a semblance of life and motion to lifeless matter. Create illusions to deceive the senses of others. Manipulate matter with physical force. Assume a different form. Alter the structure of inanimate matter. Endow an object with magical properties.   Enhance the physical and mental abilities of yourself and other.  Place protective barriers around yourself and others.   Conjure and direct energy. Gain knowledge of the past and possible future. Grant extrasensory and clairvoyant powers. Heal physical injury, remove poison, cure disease and raise the dead.   Instantaneously transfer matter from one point to another.   ...and what it can't: Magic can't conjure spirits or creatures from other realities. Magic can't directly affect the minds and souls of others Magic can't create a soul. Magic can't resurrect anyone or anything that has been dead for more than five days. Magic can't permanently suppress or negate the magical abilities of others.  Magic can't be used subconsciously.   Magic can't transform organic matter into inorganic matter and vice versa.  But I'm not entirely sure how to put all that into mechanical terms.  I'm thinking of having a single "magic" skill you roll to use a spell and your ranks in said skill determines exactly what you can do with your magic but at this point I haven't really settled on anything.
#2 TheRealOrion Mar 15, 2010 0:00:07	It sounds like a skill-based system is the way to go for what you want. It would take a lot of very off-the-cuff judgement as a GM to keep this kind of system from going off the rails, though. What you'd basically end up doing, if I'm understanding you correctly here, is designing individual spells that are all "expandable." For example, a basic Protection spell used by a low-powered wizard might take a lot of the damage out of a knife attack, but cast by an arch-mage, it would keep you safe at ground-zero of a nuclear blast. What you can do, then, is look at the spells that are in the CRB and PHB, but look at them by school, that way, you should see how they scale up, from Cure Light Wounds to Cure Moderate to Cure Serious, for example. Those would all be one spell in your game, "Cure" or "Heal" or something, and how much you cure would be determined by a Skill check, not by which spell you cast. Every spell could have a set of DCs attached which would tell you how much you have to roll in order to get X or Y effect. Fireball could be 1d6 for every 2 points above DC 15, or something like that. Is that what you're looking for?
#3 bone_naga Mar 15, 2010 11:40:33	Check out the magic systems from MCWoD or Elements of Magic: Revised. The things you don't want (like summoning spirits) can just be cut out, and otherwise can be pretty much used as is.
#4 deadsquidwalking Mar 15, 2010 20:34:53	It sounds like a skill-based system is the way to go for what you want. It would take a lot of very off-the-cuff judgement as a GM to keep this kind of system from going off the rails, though. What you'd basically end up doing, if I'm understanding you correctly here, is designing individual spells that are all "expandable." For example, a basic Protection spell used by a low-powered wizard might take a lot of the damage out of a knife attack, but cast by an arch-mage, it would keep you safe at ground-zero of a nuclear blast. That's pretty much what I have in mind in a nutshell.  What you can do, then, is look at the spells that are in the CRB and PHB, but look at them by school, that way, you should see how they scale up, from Cure Light Wounds to Cure Moderate to Cure Serious, for example. Those would all be one spell in your game, "Cure" or "Heal" or something, and how much you cure would be determined by a Skill check, not by which spell you cast. Every spell could have a set of DCs attached which would tell you how much you have to roll in order to get X or Y effect. Fireball could be 1d6 for every 2 points above DC 15, or something like that. Is that what you're looking for? Sorta.  I was thinking that for some effects, the result would depend purely on the result of your skill check while others would be a combination of a skill check and your ranks in the magic skill (let's call it Gramarye for now).  Like say for a damage dealing spell that just affects a single target, the base DC to cast it would be 15 and the damage it deals would deal either d6 or d8 damage (haven't quite decided which I'm gonna run with) based on your ranks in Gramarye: Skill Ranks 1-4: 1d6/1d8 5-7: 2d6/2d8 8-9: 3d6/3d8 10-12: 4d6/4d8 13-14: 5d6/5d8 15-16: 6d6/6d8 17-18+: 7d6/7d8 I have it set up as such because I'd not have it to where my players solve all their problems by slinging 20d6 fireballs at em.  At the same time, I recognize that some of the fun in magic comes from blowing **** up, so I'd like it to where damaging magic is a viable alternative to conventional weapons.  Also, by increasing the base DC of a damage dealing spell, you can make it an area of effect, cone, line, etc.  Another effect I was thinking of working in is "Spellblade;" it basically conjures a melee weapon made of energy.  The damage it deals depends on how well you rolled: 10: 1d6 15: 2d4 20: 2d6 25: 2d8 At every six or so ranks in Gramarye, you can give the weapon a +1 enchantment bonus.  That's kind of a rough overview of what I had in mind.  Check out the magic systems from MCWoD or Elements of Magic: Revised. The things you don't want (like summoning spirits) can just be cut out, and otherwise can be pretty much used as is. I'll give em a look when I get the chance.
#5 TheRealOrion Mar 15, 2010 21:45:32	Let me see if I understand, then. There's some kind of semi-abstract effect, and each spell produces one such effect. Each time you cast, you roll against a set of threshold DCs and your number of ranks affects the outcome to a degree. You might also be able to raise the DC even further in order to alter the area effect, so DC +5 for a Cone (or something like that). "Gramerye" is a nice touch, by the way, yet another one of the linguistic bastardisations in the terminology for magic; it actually means "grammar," just like "grimoire," and it's directly related to "spelling" a magical effect. It's all about language. Anyway, I digress. The only thing I can see being a problem there is that you're double-dipping with the skill. Gramerye is going to be an uber-skill in that game and all characters will just max it out, which doesn't create a whole lot of texture. I wonder if you could create some variety in this by keying different kind of powers to different ability scores, or perhaps having a small group of magic skills. You're cutting out a few schools of magic, for example, so you could have the remaining schools all have their own skills: Abjuration, Invocation, Divination, etc. All that being said, it sounds like you have a pretty clear idea of what you want to do. If you have a specific system in mind, then just write it up and post and we can talk it through. A word of caution, though: for entirely valid reasons, Wizards of the Coast claims intellectual property rights over anything posted on these boards, so if you want to own the idea, then don't post it here. If you don't care about ownership though (and you recognise the ridiculous unlikelihood that Wizards would ever skim an idea off of a forum that they barely remember exists), then post away.
#6 deadsquidwalking Mar 16, 2010 0:28:42	Let me see if I understand, then. There's some kind of semi-abstract effect, and each spell produces one such effect. Each time you cast, you roll against a set of threshold DCs and your number of ranks affects the outcome to a degree. You might also be able to raise the DC even further in order to alter the area effect, so DC +5 for a Cone (or something like that). Yep. "Gramerye" is a nice touch, by the way, yet another one of the linguistic bastardisations in the terminology for magic; it actually means "grammar," just like "grimoire," and it's directly related to "spelling" a magical effect. It's all about language. Anyway, I digress. Huh.  In that case, I suppose Gramerye probably wasn't the best name to run with as I'm envisioning my magic more mathematics based.  Eh, I'll think of a better name later.  The only thing I can see being a problem there is that you're double-dipping with the skill. Gramerye is going to be an uber-skill in that game and all characters will just max it out, which doesn't create a whole lot of texture. I wonder if you could create some variety in this by keying different kind of powers to different ability scores, or perhaps having a small group of magic skills. You're cutting out a few schools of magic, for example, so you could have the remaining schools all have their own skills: Abjuration, Invocation, Divination, etc. True.  I'd rather keep it under one skill as I'm intending Gramarye to be used to emulate spells like detect magic and other cantrips so I think I'll run with the option where different kinds of powers are tied to different ability scores.  All that being said, it sounds like you have a pretty clear idea of what you want to do. If you have a specific system in mind, then just write it up and post and we can talk it through. A word of caution, though: for entirely valid reasons, Wizards of the Coast claims intellectual property rights over anything posted on these boards, so if you want to own the idea, then don't post it here. If you don't care about ownership though (and you recognise the ridiculous unlikelihood that Wizards would ever skim an idea off of a forum that they barely remember exists), then post away. I don't mind if Wizards do decide to use my system (which to be honest is highly unlikely) so I'll post up something when I get my computer back.  Thanks for all the feedback; it's much appreciated.
#7 TheRealOrion Mar 16, 2010 1:44:47	Cool. Put it up as soon as you have something specific. If you're interested, a bunch of d20 modders are also over at a different forum: <modernd20unlimited.freeforums.org/index....>. Most of those posters are here, too, but if you want some extra exposure, you might think about puting something up there, too.
#8 thorr_kan Mar 16, 2010 13:51:12	There's also True Sorcery, from Green Ronin.  It's a skill and feat based system that I quite like.