If I understand the book correctly, then a normal Medium sized Fire arm only has Hard: 5 HP: 7 DC: 17, but that makes even the best weapons in the game easy to break after a few short levels...
I was thinking of something more along the lines of Fallout3, where the weapons can be attacked outright, and are more likely subject to JAM up with a lower condition then to break without reaching 0hp. Not to mention rules on a ranged strike vs disarming... I even went and bought the Exodus books from Glutton Creeper thinkin maybe they would have a better rule system for damaged and broken weapons....but alas.
EDIT: Any ideas in the creation of rules will not be ignored.
for the silly plastic guns,
or raise it for Ole Slabsides (1911) and friends that are made out of oldschool steel
While we can all easily visualize a m1 Garand being used as a baseball bat,
we can just as easily visualize a m16a1/m16b1(m4) getting destroyed doing the same.
Nothing wrong with aluminum and plastic, well, as along as you dont try to make a gun out of it.
Hardness 5?
Reminds me of the Vehicle hardness:
Q- What material has Hard5: Fiberglass boat hull, Aluminum aircraft skins, Sheetmetal car fenders?
A- Fiberglass, Aluminum, and sheetmetal all have Hardness 5
... and now slab steel has Hard5 as well it seems
If you want, I can draft up a table of Weapon Supplemental Armor panels for guns that have P-rail mount systems... if the targets can have kevlar armor, why not kevlar the gun too ;)
"My rifle has a Reflex, a Laser, a flashlight, bayonet, and NIJ-4 armor"
was just hopeing someone had a better system.
I imagen a gun with a kevlar vest looking something like a virgins nightmare of her first tampon....just saying.
you have to penetrate the scopes or chassis to get to the important gun parts
oh, please tell me they drop the Hardness and HP
for the silly plastic guns, or raise it for Ole Slabsides (1911) and friends that are made out of oldschool steel
We've established long ago that you know way more about guns than I ever will, but allow me to play devil's advocate a little. HPs are not about destroying the object/person. It's about rendering them "inoperative." With people, that can mean a bullet to the brain. The limbs still work, but the body's not dancing any more. With a gun, could that mean rendering it non-functional? Could I, for example, render a submachine gun useless by pounding on it with a crow bar? Bending the barrel, busting the trigger mechanism, destroying the bullet-delivery chamber thingy (whatever that's called)? If that's the case, if that's possible, then perhaps the weapon Hardness isn't as lunatic as it looks? It does effectively have DR5, which is nigh god-like in d20M/D&D terms.
each example of damaging a part of a gun
would be easier if that part was plastic rather than carbon steel
However, I have More Questions....
1. What is the shelf life on ammunition? (befor the ammo becomes unreliable)
Im in a post-apoc setting, so, rule of thumb would say that all ammo is already expired id imagine, but I dont think the party would enjoy ALWAYS having to roll that 5%...so age may or may not get cut from the house rules....
On that note, how long might it take for ammo to go bad from sitting under water or other environmental conditions...like explode due to heat from the sun, ect.
2. What do yew think the hardness of a medium firearm made from Carbon Steel would be?
3. Backstabbist, theres a diffrence between Kevlar Armor and Skins Armor? If yew where to give them a Hardness bonus, how much would yew think is fair? Any other kinds of armor worthy of note? And yes, that draft of charts would be awsome if the offer is still good.
Lastly, anyone else with any other ideas? Not cutting any ideas....
2) Firearms are made of many different materials these days, some stronger than others (ie, titanium handguns) ultimately, the weapons quality (hardness & HP) would with reason depend on whom the manufacturer was. For example, a South American made 1911 does not compare to the quality of a 1911 made by Kimber, or Springfield Armory. So origins of the Firearm are going to make a huge difference. I would make it house rule that if the weapon is not of quality manufacture, a natural roll of a 1 on an attack renders the weapon useless, until a gunsmith can make an attempt at repairing it.
Weapons made of special materials, would by regard to the materials they are made of be stronger, better made. For Example, a handgun made from Titanium is going to take alot more abuse than a weapon made from the standard metals. You may decide that a weapon made of special materials are less likely to disintegrate when a natural 1 is rolled, due to the material it is made of.
I have been making some custom documents for my D20 Apocalypse Campaign, that may be of use, if you are interested?
I suppose I dont need to refine the age rules....
Im always intrested in custom documents on d20 rules, specially if its Post-Apoc.
It seems like im going to need to compile a list of Alloys with determined Hardness (including carbon steel and titanium) figured out, followed up with hardness modifiers for each gun size, as well as body armor (like chainmail, full plate, scale, ect.), and gun armor upgrades...(as soon as I figure out exsactly how gun armor works...backstabbist help?)
Hell, I might even end up including gun shields like from Army of Two.
Notice that Fall Out 3 is a computer game that takes care of all the cumbersome condition tracking for you. While it is possible to have detailed rules for this sort of thing, they are guaranteed to slow things down at the table.
Sure, some of these issues can be resolved after the fact, e.g. by running through a after-encounter check-list where the players make a note of how much their equipment deteriorated during the fight. It's still a lot of extra book-keeping.
The big question, though, is this: What do you want to achieve?
- Do you want the PCs to be careful with using advanced equipment because it is unreliable?
- Do you want the PCs to carefully manage their resources because of the wear-and-tear factor?
An example mechanic of the first is this: Roll an extra differently colored d20 with each attack roll or skill check that involves unreliable weapons or equipment. If both dice come up the same number (a 5% chance) then there has been some mechanical failure. It doesn't have to mean the check failed, but there's been a complication.
An example of the latter is assigning a number of "charges" to each item and ticking them off with each use. How many charges the various items should have you'll need to decide for yourself.
These implementations will have radically different effects on the game. In terms of negative effects, I predict that the "random failure" mechanic will drive some players away from using unreliable equipment where at all possible. Also you'll have occurrences of "dramatic failure" where the PCs attempt a critical action but fail. In my experience, "dramatic failure" normally makes for good story telling after the fact, but it detracts from the immediate enjoyment of the encounter.
(It's a lot funnier to relate the story of how your character broke three guns in the same fight against the super-mutant overlord than when you crit'ed an NPC and ended the encounter on your surprise round.)
The second implementation will probably result in "hoarding" as the PCs will prefer expending readily replenishable resources (i.e. arrows and hit points!) to even potentially limited resources like guns... The result is likely to be some rather tough encounters leading up to a less challenging major encounter simply due to the players handicapping themselves. No need spending a bullet to kill a molerat, right? He'll only do a couple of hp damage while you bludgeon him to death with a rock!
-DF
As to the hoarding, It also may make your players begin using Archiac weaponry as well. I could easily see an adventurer having a sword or machete strapped to his back for up close and personal stuff that he doesnt want to expend any valueable ammo on.
I am being wery of slowin the game progression down, so if I have to, ill track the unreliability untill they are ready for it themselves...