(Personally, I'd really like them to make a "3.5" version of Modern, but I can see that that's never going to happen.)
That's why I think a third-party publisher should take over Modern the way that Paizo has taken over D&D, but with less screwing around with the rules.
The poll really should have an option for "new 3.5 Based"
In a fair world, yes it should, but Wizards is most certainly not going to go back to 3.5-based at this point. They've hitched their wagon to 4e.
That's why I think a third-party publisher should take over Modern the way that Paizo has taken over D&D, but with less screwing around with the rules.
i try and i do, i do and i try...sorry for not going with that as an option....
The poll really should have an option for "new 3.5 Based"
Except a new 3.5 based is definitely not an option. At this point in time, I think its clear WotC would rather not release a new d20 Modern then continue releasing a 3e based product.
Personally, I'm glad. I love 4e and I love Saga. A new d20 Modern released under either of those two systems would make me happy. A synthesis of the best elements of both... that would make me orgasmic. A new 3e product... I wouldn't spend a penny on it.
not asking what I am speculating WoC will shove down our throats
If this is just speculation as to what the source of their next Copy Paste modern job is,
then we should have a Vaporware choice on the poll, cause I think they are gonna stick to the Hell Freezes Over scheduel for modern releases that they curently employ
I thought the poll was asking what I wanted,
not asking what I am speculating WoC will shove down our throats
If this is just speculation as to what the source of their next Copy Paste modern job is,
then we should have a Vaporware choice on the poll, cause I think they are gonna stick to the Hell Freezes Over scheduel for modern releases that they curently employ
This poll will hopefully give them a hit to thire face once its done,that way they know that we at least want something
I thought the poll was asking what I wanted,
not asking what I am speculating WoC will shove down our throats
If this is just speculation as to what the source of their next Copy Paste modern job is,
then we should have a Vaporware choice on the poll, cause I think they are gonna stick to the Hell Freezes Over scheduel for modern releases that they curently employ
As trappslider said, the poll is to help SOMETHING actually see a realized production.
If WotC sees a market, they will make a product for it. However, at this point in time, it is clear WotC has decided that the market for 3e is not worth their time. 3e is the scraps they have decided to leave to the smaller fish.
Personally, I would rather see some form of released Modern product rather than none. A vote for a 3e product is the equivalent of saying you would like nothing to be done with Modern at all. So, if 3e is what you want, you may as well not vote. You already have the 3e product. You are not going to see anything new.
On the other hand, if you want something new, then the above poll is for you.
then Vaporware is the way for me to vote
Cause I dont want anyone to come back later and accuse me of supporting
another crappy Cut&Paste untested release of Modern,
if the only choices are restricted to 4e & Saga copies..... heaven forbid they sell a game as its own system... and we certainly dont want WoC to find out anyone might want that in a poll on the Modern board.
So in the choice of you support 4e, or you support Saga, or you dont exist,
put me down in that I Dont Exist column
so they can get an accurate count of Modern v1 buyers that wont be Modern Saga4 buyers
I've played Saga and I've played 4ED&D... and Saga is essentially an improved version of the 3.x/Modern ruleset with a different magic system.
With a few minor tweaks, Saga would be perfect for a modern game.
4E on the other hand...
Well it would need more than a few tweaks to make it work.
I thought the poll was asking what I wanted,
not asking what I am speculating WoC will shove down our throats
If this is just speculation as to what the source of their next Copy Paste modern job is,
then we should have a Vaporware choice on the poll, cause I think they are gonna stick to the Hell Freezes Over scheduel for modern releases that they curently employ
how many times do i have to say i'm sorry? I didn't think about it okay....
I will echo the words of a previous poster who said that a third party group should pick up d20 Modern. I feel its better that way, given the quality of products WOTC has been putting out lately.
Food for thought. :P
Going for a mix of the two. I just can't fathom a 4e version of the modern system. Unless they made it classless? I dunno. :|
I cant fathom a system
where you can only DoubleTap once per encounter, and BurstFire once a day
and instantly sealing up them .45" holes in your gut, six or seven times a day by just WILLING them to heal by themselves
..... in a NON-FX campaign
... you know... MODERN world
although, if they cram 4e magical powers onto the modern world,
at least then we can say the 5.7 CAN do 2d8
because we now have magic to make it happen where physics caps it at only 2d6 ;)
the FiveseveN 5.7FN to be 75-80% the power & damage of a 50BMG
and then we can see what damages WoC goves those two calibers in their Foree-Modern>
Statistics are just as much representation as they are numbers. While it looks like straight 4e is the most popular choice right now at 19 votes. Consider the other two categories combined is (as of now) 24 votes against a straight 4e version, vs 19 for. This means that 55.82% of the members that voted don't want a "straight" 4e-based version of Modern.
Food for thought. :P
you know what I take negitives for knowledge Statistics:P
Statistics are just as much representation as they are numbers. While it looks like straight 4e is the most popular choice right now at 19 votes. Consider the other two categories combined is (as of now) 24 votes against a straight 4e version, vs 19 for. This means that 55.82% of the members that voted don't want a "straight" 4e-based version of Modern.
Food for thought. :P
Alternatively, one can read the statistics (at their current count when I am making this post) as saying that at least 68.18% of the community want at least some amount of 4e in their d20 Modern, and at least 45.45% of them want their d20 Modern to be outright based on the 4e system. :P
I voted the "mix of the two" option as well, and I am anything but anti-4e for my d20 Modern. I think 4e would work great for a d20 Modern game. I just think that Saga did a lot of great stuff too. The best of both is better then one or the other. I still don't want my vote twisted out of context and taken as being part of some sort of anti-4e category. ;)
Statistics are just as much representation as they are numbers. While it looks like straight 4e is the most popular choice right now at 19 votes.
Blast! Dave, stop making new accounts and spamming the vote!
/kidding.
Personally, I look at Saga as the lesser of two evils here. It fits modern better than 4E does, IMHO, and I'd rather see it as the base for the new Modern because then I could have an easier time porting cool stuff from it to d20Modern (or if I find it's really that good, port my modern houserules to it).
I would be totally happy with a pure 4e Modern game, but I am more interested in something that is a little new.
Which is also why I really don't want a pure Saga game. At best, they should just release a "Saga" supplement with no classes, just Modern equipment stated out using the Saga rules. There is no need to copy and paste the Saga rules into a new game. We can do that ourselves, and we can do it well. My Land of Nod setting in my sig is my d20 Future setting created using Saga rules. Its easy to do, and do well. There is no need for WotC to do it for us. I feel like I would be wasting my money on that product.
I would rather see something new. Not straight 4e. Not straight Saga. Something that is empirically d20, but is built out of the best qualities of the most recent d20 games rather then completely created from one of the most recent d20 games...
Alternatively, one can read the statistics (at their current count when I am making this post) as saying that at least 68.18% of the community want at least some amount of 4e in their d20 Modern, and at least 45.45% of them want their d20 Modern to be outright based on the 4e system
nope
By that reasoning
100% of the Modern Community wants 4e or Saga
...since we of the community cannot cast votes for what we really wan.
You are claiming that the restricted choices of LightBlue or DarkBlue or MediumBlue
proves 100%everyone must like some kind of Blue.
I like Red, but somehow you dont want to let folks vote for red in you Everyone LIkes Blue ballot.
Getting to choose the lessor of 2 unwanted things is not choosing what you want.
Why bother claiming the company is listening to the community if they are already dictating what they will put out and what they wont: WoC will publish the game as WoC wants to do it .... why the pretext that this poll matters
We have been over the required fixes to 3.x Modern for a long time now.
I am terrified of the whole new way they will mangle the game by trying to paperclip modern enviroment into D&D4e superpowers game. We cant even come to accords with how to put gun feats & firepower/tanks into 4e, do we really think they will do anywhere near justice with another D&D cut&paste job?
I'm also not accusing anyone here of doing that, so don't start flaming me for it.
Also, narukagami only brought up the differences in statistics because a lot of companies (Wizards included) tend to ignore divergent polls when it comes to that. They just look and see that a 4e version has the highest percentage on it, despite that not actually being the case.
4e, with its extreme focus on combat, doesn't seem to allow for non-combat classes to shine well, so I don't think it'd be a good foundation for a new game.
4e doesn't have "combat classes" and "non combat classes." It generally goes by the philosophy that its character classes should all be capable in both areas, this way all players can participate both in and out of combat. The idea is to avoid the "lets play game combat where the combat players can participate and the non combat players have to sit it out" for an hour, and then lets play non combat where the non combat player can participate and the combat player shave to sit it out for an hour." Personally, I don't think the philosophy is a bad one. It would work just fine for a Modern game. Though I would prefer more non-combat utility powers ala Saga for a Modern game. D&D 4e gets a lot of its non combat ability from rituals, which don't really make sense in a Modern (non magic) setting.
On the other hand, I wonder how many people voted in this poll that are actually invested in d20 modern, instead of just seeing a poll for "4e vs. the Old Ways(tm)" and decided to contaminate the results.
I'm also not accusing anyone here of doing that, so don't start flaming me for it.
Also, narukagami only brought up the differences in statistics because a lot of companies (Wizards included) tend to ignore divergent polls when it comes to that. They just look and see that a 4e version has the highest percentage on it, despite that not actually being the case.
The poll does empirically say that 4e is the preferred potential future version of the Modern game. Any attempt to create conspiracy theories as to why is a bit... well... silly.
The poll does empirically say that 4e is the preferred potential future version of the Modern game. Any attempt to create conspiracy theories as to why is a bit... well... silly.
only because...
"stick with 3.x"
and
"none of the above"
...were not listed as options.
The poll does empirically say that 4e is the preferred potential future version of the Modern game. Any attempt to create conspiracy theories as to why is a bit... well... silly.
Heh, there's no theories here. The poll states that MORE people would rather it not be a purely 4e system (unless you're disputing a 28 v. 23 ruling). But the poll splits you between two systems that people may not like and doesn't give you an alternate to them; ergo you have a handful of people who are not voting because they don't like the choices. It assumes two outcomes, when in reality it should have been structured differently.
In addition, given this ridiculous neoedition war between 3.x and 4e, I wouldn't put it past people to jump on the poll JUST to push 4th edition onto Modern who otherwise would not have been terribly invested in it.
Its not a conspiracy theory. Its a pragmatic view of human nature, particularly on the internet.
only because...
"stick with 3.x"
and
"none of the above"
...were not listed as options.
I specifically stated "preferred potential future version of the Modern game." 3.5 and none of the above are not potential future versions of the d20 Modern game. Not to mention, I am willing to bet that if "stay with 3.5" was an option, it still would not pull ahead of the other options. There is a vocal minority that likes 3.5, but the recent boom in sales of 4e products indicates that its fans are the majority.
Heh, there's no theories here. The poll states that MORE people would rather it not be a purely 4e system (unless you're disputing a 28 v. 23 ruling).
No. What the poll says is that:
45.10% of the voters would like to see a 4e Modern.
35.29% of the voters would like to see a Saga modern.
64.71% of the voters would like to see a Modern game with at least a few 4e elements in it.
54.9% of the voters would like to see a Modern game with at least a few Saga elements in it.
This is a semantic difference, but its an important one. The way you made your statement, you are attempting to infer that people don't want a 4e Modern system. You are twisting the votes of those who stated "a mix of the two" to make that claim. I don't want my vote twisted. I voted for "a mix of the two." But, I DO want a 4e Modern game. I simply want it to incorporate the best elements of Saga, because Saga had some great elements that did not make it into 4e (and I wish they had). If you are trying to infer something from that vote, how about inferring that only 35.29% of the voters that voted don't want at least some of the elements of 4e in their Modern.
But the poll splits you between two systems that people may not like and doesn't give you an alternate to them; ergo you have a handful of people who are not voting because they don't like the choices. It assumes two outcomes, when in reality it should have been structured differently.
There is no point to structure it differently. The other potential outcome is a vote of no confidence. There is no potential that WotC will continue to release new products for a 3e product that is already in stasis. No vote is required to ensure that WotC sees Modern as not worthy of future released products. That is the situation it is currently in. There is a reason that 3e Modern did not continue to create new products. It is not because the product was selling so well that WotC thought they should cut their own profits by not releasing any new products. I'm not saying that Modern was not a great product! In my opinion, it was the best 3e product released by WotC. Obviously, however, WotC has moved on from 3e. They no longer consider the edition to be worth their time, or to generate an acceptable quantity of revenue. So, voting for a 3e Modern is pointless. You may as well not vote at all.
In addition, given this ridiculous neoedition war between 3.x and 4e, I wouldn't put it past people to jump on the poll JUST to push 4th edition onto Modern who otherwise would not have been terribly invested in it.
I wouldn't put it past space aliens to support 3e in order to lower the quality of Earth's gaming community. I think all the votes in that poll for 3e are from space aliens.
Ridiculous conspiracy theories are ridiculous. Its certainly possible, but its quite possible that the 3e side did the exact same thing. Perhaps the 3e side, realizing that they are a vocal minority, and that this thread is attracting the attention of 4e fans that don't usually post here (because certain posters make this section of the boards mildly hostile to those who like 4e and want a 4e Modern), starting logging on to multiple accounts in order to bolster a vote that would otherwise have support from a far smaller number of voters? Perhaps. But there is no evidence to support either this claim, or your claim. Both are baseless accusations. Making baseless accusations with no evidence to support them is lame. There are more then enough 4e and Modern, and Saga and Modern, fans on this board to support the numbers found in this poll as valid. Most of the 4e and Modern fans simply avoid posting here, and instead post in the "Future Release" section of the boards (when a d20 Modern topic is raised there).
Its not a conspiracy theory. Its a pragmatic view of human nature, particularly on the internet.
No, its not. If you are going to assume its human nature, then you must assume that the general body of humans will in general participate in such activities to an equal degree regardless of their subjective viewpoint. This means that both the "3e" (or Saga, as there is no actual 3e side here) and 4e side will participate in similar activities to a similar degree of ratio. This would mean that the outcome of the poll is still valid, as without better evidence one must assume that both sides will be equally skewed to a similar degree, and honest to a similar degree.
What you have done is applied "human nature" only to one side of the debate, and then tried to use "human nature" to render that side, and only that side, invalid. That is not actually appealing to human nature. That is creating a conspiracy theory to explain the implication of the poll's results.
No. What the poll says is that:
45.10% of the voters would like to see a 4e Modern.
35.29% of the voters would like to see a Saga modern.
64.71% of the voters would like to see a Modern game with at least a few 4e elements in it.
54.9% of the voters would like to see a Modern game with at least a few Saga elements in it.
This is a semantic difference, but its an important one. The way you made your statement, you are attempting to infer that people don't want a 4e Modern system. You are twisting the votes of those who stated "a mix of the two" to make that claim. I don't want my vote twisted. I voted for "a mix of the two." But, I DO want a 4e Modern game. I simply want it to incorporate the best elements of Saga, because Saga had some great elements that did not make it into 4e (and I wish they had). If you are trying to infer something from that vote, how about inferring that only 35.29% of the voters that voted don't want at least some of the elements of 4e in their Modern.
The poll states that MORE people would rather it not be a purely 4e system.
That seems fairly straight forward to me. More people would rather it not be a purely 4e system. If they wanted it to be so, they would have voted in that way. How is that twisting the votes? If you add Saga-edition material to a 4e game, you're not playing a 4e game; you're playing a 4e-Saga hybrid and thus not a 4e game. Why are you trying to twist what I said, other than to make your argument more appropriate?
Again: I stated that MORE people would rather it not be a purely 4e system. As in, make alterations to the system instead of just cloning the 4e system for Modern. More people need alterations to that system before it flies. My argument is that Wizards (like most other bodies in similar positions) will simply take a look at the poll numbers and say, "Oh, well, more people want 4e" because that's what the polls show at first glance, and people rarely ever go into these things themselves.
There is no point to structure it differently. The other potential outcome is a vote of no confidence. There is no potential that WotC will continue to release new products for a 3e product that is already in stasis. There is a reason that 3e Modern did not continue to create new products. It is not because the product was selling so well that WotC thought they should cut their own profits by not releasing any new products.
There is always a way to structure it differently. There are always options, and there are always options that limit the amount of hair splitting a poll can do. Does Wizards even have to continue production of a Modern system? Do we think that's appropriate?
Granted this entire poll is meant to have the people in this forum feel like Wizards still cares about them, when they haven't and don't. Fifty some-odd consumers is not enough to base an entirely new RPG expansion on, and as far as I've seen, Wizards hasn't had any plans for any kind of Modern for the next year or so.
d20 Modern didn't fail because of lack of interest on the consumer level. It failed because Wizards couldn't pump out as many supplements as often as they did for 3.5e.
I wouldn't put it past space aliens to support 3e in order to lower the quality of Earth's gaming community. I think all the votes in that poll for 3e are from space aliens.
Ridiculous conspiracy theories are ridiculous. Its certainly possible, but its quite possible that the 3e side did the exact same thing. Perhaps the 3e side, realizing that they are a vocal minority, and that this thread is attracting the attention of 4e fans that don't usually post here (because certain posters make this section of the boards mildly hostile to those who like 4e and want a 4e Modern), starting logging on to multiple accounts in order to bolster a vote that would otherwise have support from a far smaller number of voters? Making baseless accusations with no evidence to support them is lame. There are more then enough 4e and Modern fans on this board to support the numbers found in this poll as valid. Most of them simply avoid posting here, and instead post in the "Future Release" section of the boards (when a d20 Modern topic is raised there).
Regardless of your belief of space aliens infesting the servers of the forums, the hostility on these forums isn't any of my concern, nor should I make concessions to people who aren't mature enough to handle decent argument. I think the negativity people feel from here is more from the fact that the rest of the forums is so blatantly pandering to the 4e crowd that they're not used to a place where the abject worship of the system isn't the norm.
It is entirely possible the 3e "minority" as you call us (Do we get our own ACLU?) did as you suggested. I'm not disputing this. I just think its more likely that people who haven't been as invested in d20 Modern (lets face it, its always been a niche product anyway) would wander over and vote in the poll just to drive the interest in 4e up. Mostly this comes from my own opinion that the majority of people are lazy and wouldn't go out of their way to take the time to log out, log back in on another account, and vote multiple times over something so meaningless. Heh, I know I wouldn't.
And if aliens helped swing the 3e vote, 4e went back in time and killed JFK with a 120grain propelled d20. :P
No, its not. If you are going to assume its human nature, then you must assume that the general body of humans will in general participate in such activities to an equal degree regardless of their subjective viewpoint. This means that both the "3e" (or Saga, as there is no actual 3e side here) and 4e side will participate in similar activities to a similar degree of ratio. This would mean that the outcome of the poll is still valid, as without better evidence one must assume that both sides will be equally skewed to a similar degree.
What you have done is applied "human nature" only to one side of the debate, and then tried to use "human nature" to render that side, and only that side, invalid. That is not actually appealing to human nature. That is creating a conspiracy theory to explain the implication of the polls results.
Armchair sociology is fun, isn't it?
By eliminating those voters from the poll, the poll itself is skewed towards a certain outcome... and for that matter why not an option asking for a completely new system that is neither 4e nor Saga?
In any case, I doubt that WotC is planning to do a new version of modern, and if they are planning one, I doubt that they will consult the people on the forums as to what system it should be based on. That being said, I thank TS for at least TRYING to gauge our interest so that he can pass that info on to whomever he knows over at WotC.
I doubt Trapped Slider was attempting to deliberately disenfranchise anyone. However, the fact that some folks believe that they know what WotC is thinking doesn't mean that there aren't people who want an updated version of 3.x or that there aren't people who don't want to see any changes at all.
By eliminating those voters from the poll, the poll itself is skewed towards a certain outcome... and for that matter why not an option asking for a completely new system that is neither 4e nor Saga?
In any case, I doubt that WotC is planning to do a new version of modern, and if they are planning one, I doubt that they will consult the people on the forums as to what system it should be based on. That being said, I thank TS for at least TRYING to gauge our interest so that he can pass that info on to whomever he knows over at WotC.
Atleast some one thanks me....all the other options slipped my mind due to things going on like the fact that all of the previous stuff from WotC has been taken down from PDF sellers....so, it didn't even enter into my mind to add a 3.5 choice
Atleast some one thanks me....all the other options slipped my mind due to things going on like the fact that all of the previous stuff from WotC has been taken down from PDF sellers....so, it didn't even enter into my mind to add a 3.5 choice
Hey man I appreciate what you are trying to do...:D
The thing that kills me is that the 3.x crowd either doesn't realize or doesn't agree that Saga is essentially just an upgrade of 3.x... its a HECK of a lot more like Modern than 4E is... and I've played them both (Saga and 4E).:P
What I'd say, and this is based on only skimming the Saga book (so I could be wrong!), is that Saga is to 4e what Alternity was to 3e. It was a relatively low-stakes arena in which to test out some ideas that they had for their next edition. In retrospect, I'm kind of amazed that I didn't see it coming. Even d20M contains an idea or two that made its way into 3.5e, if I'm not mistaken.
This is how Wizards works. They publish a non-D&D product and test it out for their next version of D&D, which is and will probably remain their flagship product. As a business practise, it works pretty well. Despite my dislike for 4e (although I will give it a try, if and when the opportunity presents itself!), I can't fault them on their marketing savvy.
This is how Wizards works. They publish a non-D&D product and test it out for their next version of D&D, which is and will probably remain their flagship product. As a business practise, it works pretty well. Despite my dislike for 4e (although I will give it a try, if and when the opportunity presents itself!), I can't fault them on their marketing savvy.
Well if this is the case, I vote that Wizards use their D20 Modern product to test out something radically different/better than 4e and the current Modern. Modern doesn't have the legacy ties that D&D does and I would be happy with a system that is robust, easily customizable and easily scalable.
As for saga being an upgrade... perhaps I chose the wrong word... perhaps evolution would be better...
Yes...
Saga was the next step in the evolution of the d20/3.x species...
4E is some sort of genetically engineered mutant freak. It is overspecialized to the point where it is perfect for running a fantasy game and useless for running anything else.
Saga was the next step in the evolution of the d20/3.x species...
4E is some sort of genetically engineered mutant freak. It is overspecialized to the point where it is perfect for running a fantasy game and useless for running anything else.
I sort of agree, and sort of don't. DiasExMachina seems to be showing a lot of promise in regards to the ability to mutate the 4e system into something designed to run sci-fi and sci-fantasy games. However, the 4e system out of the box is definitely specialized to run heroic fantasy games. Saga, out of the box, is a better system for running alternate (more Modern or sci-fi) style games. I certainly agree. That is why I want some of Saga's elements in my 4e Modern game...
Now for the less important responses.
Note: Less important not because the people I am responding to are less important, just because my responses are less pertinent to the purpose and point of the original post.
If saga was a test bed for 4e, WotC didn't use anything from it...
How about the 4e skill system?
How about the similarity of 4e power notation to force abilities and pilot maneuvers?
How about the similarity in stat bonus acquisition (gain +1 to two different stats)?
How about the similarity in the changes to the way the square mapping and movement work?
How about the similarity of the notion that you get a bonus of a "power" (read talent in Saga) at one level, and "feat" the next?
How about the similar new defense mechanics?
Some of the feat changes seem similar as well...
The two are certainly not identical. But I can see how they evolved from the same set of ideas.
WaylanWolf: Also, I don't believe I know what WotC is thinking. I just think that they have given more than enough evidence that other than a Saga style line of products, they are not interested in anything to do with the 3.5 or 3e products. I suppose I could be misreading the evidence... but then tell me, what did the language of the first draft of the GSL tell you? What does the fact that WotC no longer supports 3e D&D tell you? What does the lack of recent 3e d20 Modern publications tell you? I am just interpreting these factors.
That seems fairly straight forward to me. More people would rather it not be a purely 4e system. If they wanted it to be so, they would have voted in that way. How is that twisting the votes? If you add Saga-edition material to a 4e game, you're not playing a 4e game; you're playing a 4e-Saga hybrid and thus not a 4e game. Why are you trying to twist what I said, other than to make your argument more appropriate?
I am not trying to twist what you said. You are attempting to imply something with your words that is not true. You are trying to imply that most people don't think 4e would work well for a Modern game. This is false. Most people clearly think that at least some elements of 4e would work well for a Modern game. Of that group, most of them feel that a straight up 4e product would work best for a Modern game.
Again: I stated that MORE people would rather it not be a purely 4e system. As in, make alterations to the system instead of just cloning the 4e system for Modern. More people need alterations to that system before it flies. My argument is that Wizards (like most other bodies in similar positions) will simply take a look at the poll numbers and say, "Oh, well, more people want 4e" because that's what the polls show at first glance, and people rarely ever go into these things themselves.
It is true, most don't want a 4e clone. But, most would still like a significant quantity of the elements of 4e in their game.
There is always a way to structure it differently. There are always options, and there are always options that limit the amount of hair splitting a poll can do. Does Wizards even have to continue production of a Modern system? Do we think that's appropriate?
My point is, if you don't, I don't think you need a vote. You are already getting what you wanted: nothing new from WotC. I just don't see the "3.5" vote as necessarily. By not voting, and keeping the numbers of the above polls down, one is already voting for 3.5 (and thus no new Modern products from WotC).
d20 Modern didn't fail because of lack of interest on the consumer level. It failed because Wizards couldn't pump out as many supplements as often as they did for 3.5e.
And why do you think that was? Because, if the original product would have generated the revenue to indicate that further supplements were profitable, those supplements would have existed.
Regardless of your belief of space aliens infesting the servers of the forums, the hostility on these forums isn't any of my concern, nor should I make concessions to people who aren't mature enough to handle decent argument.
Decent argument? If it wasn't against the CoC I would start naming names and giving quotes of certain members of this forum who have proven that the hostility in this forum to 4e has nothing to do with "decent argument." Most of the time its made by people making (false) empirical statements in the face of direct evidence to the contrary. They are not the majority of the members even in this forum here, but they are vocal, and vocal enough to make this place unpleasant to someone who prefers 4e to anything 3e has to offer.
Nor do those who stay away stay away due to a lack of maturity. They stay away because they gain the impression that this community has nothing to offer them. They come here to start threads about the potential of creating a 4e Modern game, and they get berated by certain members of this forum for desiring something more 4e than original d20 Modern.
Now, it certainly doesn't need to be your concern that this is the case, but the fact that this is the case is a very good indication that there are a large number of pro-Modern/pro-4e posters who just don't post here... which is exactly what the above poll is showing, despite your conspiracy theories to the contrary.
It is entirely possible the 3e "minority" as you call us (Do we get our own ACLU?) did as you suggested. I'm not disputing this. I just think its more likely that people who haven't been as invested in d20 Modern (lets face it, its always been a niche product anyway) would wander over and vote in the poll just to drive the interest in 4e up. Mostly this comes from my own opinion that the majority of people are lazy and wouldn't go out of their way to take the time to log out, log back in on another account, and vote multiple times over something so meaningless. Heh, I know I wouldn't.
Oh. I see. The majority of the 3e crowd is to lazy to skew the numbers, but the 4e crowd is not? Wait, so you know what the majority of the 3e and 4e crowd are actually feeling? Hold on, what was that next thing you said...
Armchair sociology is fun, isn't it?
Hello pot, please meet kettle. He is black.
And if aliens helped swing the 3e vote, 4e went back in time and killed JFK with a 120grain propelled d20. :P
That is the most logical thing you said. :P ;)
If saga was a test bed for 4e, WotC didn't use anything from it...
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but they used the consolidation of skills and the combination of Saves/Defence, didn't they? If I'm wrong, I'll shut up about it.
As for saga being an upgrade... perhaps I chose the wrong word... perhaps evolution would be better...
It's practically the same metaphor, given the popular misconception that evolution makes things "better." But it's not a big deal. You like Saga, so you're predisposed to use positive terms to describe it. That's cool. I just don't share your enthusiasm.
CyberDave: seriously, chill out, man. It's a poll with only three questions, which leaves out two major options (adapt Modern to 3.5e, leave Modern the way it is), and the numbers are way to low to make any kind of conclusion that's worth anything. Furthermore, the poll exists only a small forum that is, I'm sorry to say, not frequented by as many people as it has previously (and even, the place wasn't exactly bustling with activity). I don't say this to dismiss the effort and intent of the posters, but this poll is nigh meaningless. If Wizards were to listen to what we think on this issue, then it would be the first time. This is tempest in a tea pot.
CyberDave: seriously, chill out, man. It's a poll with only three questions, which leaves out two major options (adapt Modern to 3.5e, leave Modern the way it is), and the numbers are way to low to make any kind of conclusion that's worth anything. Furthermore, the poll exists only a small forum that is, I'm sorry to say, not frequented by as many people as it has previously (and even, the place wasn't exactly bustling with activity). I don't say this to dismiss the effort and intent of the posters, but this poll is nigh meaningless. If Wizards were to listen to what we think on this issue, then it would be the first time. This is tempest in a tea pot.
1) I am "chill." I am just (sometimes) a stickler for details and semantics.
2) d20 Modern already pretty much is 3.5 edition. The last couple changes can be done by us, a publisher is not required.
3) What is the purpose of a "leave it the way it is" vote? That is already being done, and the low numbers on the poll probably ensure that that is what will be done...
4) I agree with everything else you wrote, though I still think it is very commendable of trappslider for getting it put up!
For the record, I voted "4e," but only because I'm lazy and want something done in 4e that I can port into a hybrid world with D&D.
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but they used the consolidation of skills and the combination of Saves/Defence, didn't they? If I'm wrong, I'll shut up about it.
It's practically the same metaphor, given the popular misconception that evolution makes things "better." But it's not a big deal. You like Saga, so you're predisposed to use positive terms to describe it. That's cool. I just don't share your enthusiasm.
You're right, they did take skill consolidation and static defenses... they also expanded the Force power mechanic and applied it to the entire "powers" system. So I was wrong... its not the first time, it wont be the last.;)
As for the difference between upgrade and evolution...
man I hate semantics
... All I was trying to illustrate is that there is a logical progression from d20/3.x to the Saga edition where 4E is a radical departure from the 3.x design philosophy.
I just like to maintain an awareness that such things are subjective, rather than trying to imply that they're objectively logical. ;)
My point is, if you don't, I don't think you need a vote.
and from another view
Those who would rather have a "3.5" or "none of the above" option are welcome to their opinion......
great, we get to be counted
.... and may choose not to vote.
Doh!
However, as of this post, there are just 55 votes for anything.
well, perhaps if you were less in favor of the poll excluding those that disagree with you, you would have higher returns.... how can we say if the guys you dont count are a minority or majority- you dont count them
To avoid further confrontation over misrepresentation
everyone please prefix your analysis of the poll results with the phrase
Of the folks that want Sega or 4e, yadda yadda yadda
cause I am not tollerant of people saying I am for something that I oppose,
due to their application of a skewed poll result across the whole forum.
Once you admit the opposition is not allowed to vote,
you cant call it a popular victory anymore
The poll asked everyone what they wanted.
And some folks feel what others want is not worthy of getting to vote
I made a mistake.....Look if you wish for a 3.5 version when just post saying so unless you've already voted and i'll add it to the final count when the poll is over