What the hell happened to this board? We used to have houserule threads galore, and a blast critiquing/improving those house-rules as a team. It was the most fun I've had on a discussion board in a long time... and now this place has been reduced to a tense, and anger-prone forum.
While I know why we haven't posted houserules in the past... well, aways back, the ToS did it, I can't believe our reasonable (and boasted most stable at one point in time) corner of the forums degraded to what it is now.
This isn't a finger-pointing thread, but I'd like to ask you guys what you think is missing from this place, why it's gone, and how it can be fixed.
Have fun without the flaming and standoffs, like things used to be.
I personally think that the lack of house rules being created is more of a symptom of the overarching problem rather then the cause of it. Once upon a time, all of us who posted in these forums pretty much saw things from the same perspective: we all loved d20 Modern, based on the 3e rules. Some of us wanted to change certain things, so we created house rules to change those things. Use those house rules or don't, none of us cared. We shared our work. We had a community. And in the end, we all generally saw things from pretty much the same perspective.
That is no longer true. Now three games exist. 3e, Saga, and 4e, and nobody agrees on what Modern should be based off. Moreover, with the coming of 4e there has been a large rift over the internet. Those of us who were forced to partake in dealing with that rift (and 4e haters) have lost a lot of patience for false statements used to insult our system of choice. We are tired of people trying to force their subjective dislike of the system we prefer down our throats.
Now we come here, and try to create threads about positive brainstorming of a 4e d20 Modern idea. What we get is certain posters (a minority to be sure, but a very vocal minority) stamping over to those threads and pretty much suggesting "why don't you use this system instead." No matter how many times we say, "we don't want to use that system, we want to use this other system," they don't seem to get it. Now instead of creating house rules we are arguing over which system the house rules should be created for.
Couple that with people not wanting to release house rules at all, because the cherry on the cake is the realization that anything posted on these boards potentially ceases to be our intellectual property, and what you have is just the right ingredients to create an unpleasant situation. What you have is idle minds with nothing to do but argue.
The problem is that we no longer have a common ground or perspective from which we can all orient ourselves. We do not all love the existing d20 Modern game as is. All of us love the concept of d20 Modern, but how we want that concept realized is very different, and often antithetical. Couple that with negative empirical statements made in relation to the tastes of others, statements that are often objectively false (as they are anything but empirical, despite their presentation), and what you have is the makings of an argument.
I believe that the nature of the problem is also why you only see arguments arise in threads that discuss what sort of new d20 Modern people would like.
Anyhow, you're hanging out in some fairly tame threads. The ones that really seem to get tense are the 4E-related ones. I suppose I notice more of the angry ones because they have a lot of long-time regulars, all of whom I'd call friends, arguing and mainly just tearing away at each other.
It's not pretty or fun.
Anyhow, the board used to be more active, and the arguments you'll see in the 4E threads and other things didn't really happen... or if they did happen, it was at some kid who had no idea what he was talking about. Either way, it was either non-existent or over with quickly.
Edit: I can see what you're saying, Dave.
My solution: We need a site that's like Deviant Art for homebrew... lol.
A certain person has stated that 4e Modern discussions do not belong on the Modern board. I don't believe that's true, but it's one way to settle the dispute. So I took my ideas for 4e modern to the 4e D&D boards. I thought we would all be cool with that, but the poster who suggested 4e discussions don't belong here followed me to the D&D boards.
If you don't want my ideas on the modern boards, I'm more than glad to oblinge. But since I'm doing the courtesy of leaving you guys alone; please do me the same courtesy and stop bringing anti-4e Modern discussions to the D&D boards. If we can both agree to just stay out of each other's way, I think that's a comprise we might all be able to live with.
I think a big part of the problem is lingering resentment about a game we all really love being pretty much dropped in a bag and dumped in a river, and I don't just mean resentment on the part of the 3e folks, either! I'd imagine the 4e boosters are really keen to see Wizards actually do something with Modern too, right? So let's consider for a moment that all of us who frequent the board are feeling anxious and irritable, and splitting into factions isn't actually making the experience any better, either.
Now Vega, as to your specific question, this is just off the top of my head, but suggesting house rules feels like a very different thing when the game is officially discontinued. I know that once 4e was announced, I suddenly felt like I could go ahead and break the rules of 3e in Phoenix because it's just not tethered to anything any more. That might be part of what's going on around here. I suggest more rule changes since then, but I can imagine that a lot of people might feel like, "meh, why bother? The game's dead anyway." Here's the thing, though, not only do I love being able to come here and throw ideas as you all and get really helpful, thoughtful responses, I also really like hearing your ideas. Even if I don't use them, they make me think about why I'm doing things a certain way and if I ought to change. I like that. I thrive on that.
At the risk of sounding like a goody-goody (it's okay, I'm used to it), may I suggest some rules of engagement? There are some basic etiquette things that can really help in spaces like this. I'm on another board now, a comic-book board, that has some really unusual rules that work like a charm, but they're going to seem a little touchy-feely at first. Just bear with me.
1. Always assume that people are speaking in good faith.
I really like this rule. Any time that you feel like someone's just winding you up, stop and think, maybe they really do believe what they're saying, and they just happen to disagree with your interpretation of the facts (people rarely disagree about facts; they very often disagree about interpretation). Starting from that place really helps calm down a lot of disagreements. The corollary is that we have to actually speak in good faith. When we're in a heated debate, we have to stop and think, maybe I'm defending this position out of habit, a desire to win the point, rather than because I actually believe what I'm saying any more. This happens a lot to. It has happened to me, many many times.
2. Argue the point, not the person.
In rhetoric, it's called an ad hominem attack. There's just no good reason for any of us to think that we know what each other is thinking or what our intentions are. We don't know. I don't know what you're thinking, you don't know what I'm thinking. Treating a discussion as if it's about me or about you is just irrational and counter-productive. The discussion is about our games and how to have as much fun as we can. That has a lot to do with us, as people, but the discussions should be stay on-topic.
3. Acknowledge subjective differences and celebrate them.
Instead of trying to establish objective facts and argue about what's "true," bear in mind that the point of being here is for us all to play a game where we get to be secret agents and superheroes. This is an inherently subjective experience, just like eating ice-cream or having sex. If everyone involved is having fun, then you are doing it right. If other people play the game differently than you, just be happy for them. If they're having fun in a way that you just cannot fathom, let it go. Don't feel like you need to share their sense of fun in order to support it. As an example, ballistics bore the ever-loving crap out of me, but others could talk about guns all day. I just generally stay out of the gun threads because I know I'd get bored and perhaps snarky. It's that simple.
4. Sometimes the smartest thing to say is nothing.
If someone's getting to you, saying stuff that bugs you, just ask yourself, do I really care? Does this person's opinion mean anything to me? I mean, you don't want to totally abandon your sense that we're all people, just like you, sitting in front of computers, trying to figure out how to make our games more fun. But also think about whether you have the option to just let it go and move on with your life. Sometimes the best way to end a fight is to not participate in it. This includes not feeling the need to get the last word, not continuing to point fingers after a disagreement, and not accusing anyone of deliberately trying to ruin your fun. This is a tricky one to say the way that I'm saying it, and I hope I'm not coming off like I'm singling anyone out. I'm really not. This is normal human behaviour that I've been watching since way back in the days of UseNet [shudder]. The problem is that normal human behaviour on the internet can be really destructive, whereas in person, we have billions of years of evolution helping us to resolve these kinds of things (I firmly believe that humans are heard animals, but that's neither here nor there).
That's all I have. I hope it's useful. I hope it doesn't come off as presumptuous. I'm really not trying to lecture anyone. I just want to go back to the time when people asked me about the game I built (which is a damn good feeling) or Backstabbist is helping me figure out how to stat up rifles, or stuff like that.
Edit: Got a name wrong. Sorry 'bout that.
Solid Post
These are all good guidelines. I like them. :P
That's all I have. I hope it's useful. I hope it doesn't come off as presumptuous. I'm really not trying to lecture anyone. I just want to go back to the time when Vega was telling me about how he's actually running the game I built (which is a damn good feeling) or Backstabbist is helping me figure out how to stat up rifles, or stuff like that.
Not to take the wind out of your sail, but I think it was someone else who was playing Phoenix. I said I'd love to play a game with it, though... or at least I think I said that.
Could've been Vegabonvoid, though. It wouldn't have been the first time we've been confused.
(Or it could be you actually meant Vegabonvoid to begin with. >>)
Regardless it just feels great to know that someone else is using your stuff; I remember getting that feeling with a good portion of my houserules and projects (especially one Gunbrawler class).
To add to the discussion, perhaps we can still have our houserule sharing:
1) Get a Gmail accout.
2) Sign up for Gdocs
3) Make your new houserule(s) there.
4) "Publish" and link them in a thread. It's not as fast as them just being in the OP, but that's okay. You still own your stuff.
5) "Unpublish" when you believe the thread has run its course; you can hopefully preserve some of the freshness of the rule if you ever plan on selling your work.
Its territorialism, pure and simple. Maybe good fences do make good neighbors, but we still need to be civil.
I HAVE tried to figure out how firearms would work in the 4E rules.
I HAVE tried to figure out how autofire would work in the 4E rules.
I Have started a thread addressing how Modern Classes might work in the 4E rules.
I HAVE expressed the opinion that trying to convert 4E to a modern setting is too much of a pain FOR ME.
I HAVE expressed the opinion that Saga would make a better set of rules FOR ME.
I HAVE shared my observations of the 4E rules in action.
I HAVE called out Backstabbist for being un-helpful.
I HAVE seen Backstabbist provide constructive Ideas for a 4E Anime setting.
I HAVE called out Cyber-Dave for being downright Rude lately.
I HAVE read Cyber-Daves apology and subsequent calm discussions to/with James Cosper.
I have NOT called anyone a liar.
I have NOT called anyone a Saga Hater.
I Have NOT called anyone a 3.x Hater.
But apparently I am a 4E hater and a Liar.
So to answer the question... What happened?
The idea of 4E Modern was brought up... when people like Backstabbist and I said, "Yeah, but what about this problem?" we were branded 4E haters.
So lets not ignore the elephant in the room. The boards were fine until Backstabbist, Cyber-Dave, Mecha Pilot and Myself began arguing over whether or not and How a 4E Modern might work.
I accept my share of the responsibility for that; and I apologize to all for my part.
I hope the other three do the same.
But apparently I am a 4E hater and a Liar.
Sorry, is there an actual post where someone has called you a "4E hater and a Liar"? You don't like 4E, but you have explicitly stated that in your posts. That doesn't make you a 4E hater. As for you being a "liar," this too was not said. What was said is:
Sorry, but to claim that all the powers in 4e do the same thing (probably because they use a similar system of notation) is a lie. That is an observable fact. When comparing powers, it quickly becomes fairly obvious that they do not have the same target lines, radius of effects, damage types, or secondary effects.
Sorry, but to claim that because no fighter really gains ranged powers that they all use the same action round after round is a lie. Fighters might not gain any ranged weapon powers, but they gain plenty of different melee range powers. That is observable fact.
If you are not claiming that all weapon powers in 4e (objectively) do the same thing, or that fighters can only perform a single (objective) action in 4e, you are not lying, and are thus not a liar. Neither of those two statements say that YOU made that claim. And while it does (subjectively) seem to me that you did defend those claims, or rather the right of others to make them, my subsequent posts made statements about those claims, not you. You have made the statement that I am something (rude), I have made the statement that something I think you defended is something (false), at least so far as you are concerned. In backstabbists case, I have made a few choice comments about him personally.
So to answer the question... What happened?
The idea of 4E Modern was brought up... when people like Backstabbist and I said, "Yeah, but what about this problem?" we were branded 4E haters.
That is not accurate. The idea of 4E Modern was brought up. People like you and backstabbist said "what about this problem?" A solution was devised. You listened, and either liked it or didn't, but accepted that those who like 4E liked it. Backstabbist ignored the proposed solution, and continued to claim that "objective" problems with a 4E Modern existed even though his "objective" problems were not objective (and often were downright objectively false). Backstabbist then got labeled a 4E hater.
So lets not ignore the elephant in the room. The boards were fine until Backstabbist, Cyber-Dave, Mecha Pilot and Myself began arguing over whether or not and How a 4E Modern might work.
I accept my share of the responsibility for that; and I apologize to all for my part.
I hope the other three do the same.
I accept responsibility for being rude to James Cosper. I should not have implied intent on his part. It was rude and unnecessary. But I have the right to defend my tastes, and will do so when they are assaulted (James Cosper did not assault my tastes, in his case I was simply being overly defensive). Claiming that things are objectively problematic with the 4E system is not ok, unless they are actually objectively problematic. For something to actually be objectively problematic, it must be objective. Statements which can be proven as false are not objective. Statements that rely on personal impression and sentiment, not objectively observable fact, are not objective. Claiming that someone else's preferred tastes are objectively poor is insulting, and I will defend my tastes against such claims.
So, lets add a little sub-addendum to RealOrion's rule number three:
3. Acknowledge subjective differences and celebrate them.
-Do not claim that other people's preferred systems are objectively problematic at running a 4E game when you have nothing but a subjective statement, or a false statement, to back up your claim.
And two sub-addendums to RealOrion's rule number four:
4. Sometimes the smartest thing to say is nothing.
-If you feel that you have objective proof that someone else's preferred system would be poor at running a game, it is probably best to say nothing.
-Provide feedback only when it is constructive to the goals of the original poster.
...well thought out rational post...
Fair enough.
Fair enough.
Excellent. Do we get to board-friends again, or are we still giving each other death glares across an imaginary digital (man, its not only imaginary because its digital, its an imaginary digital, and thus an imagination of an imagined) line? :P
One other thing I was going to mention, not necessarily a full "point," but maybe a good idea. I find that if you are having an argument over some specific point, it's really helpful to think in terms of actually convincing that person/those people of your point rather than "winning" the debate. It's possible to "win" (or create the appearance of winning) even if everyone disagrees with you and thinks you're a jerk. I have seen no such examples here on this board (thank gods), but I've certainly seen examples in other places on line, many times. "Winning" is often about humiliating someone, ganging up, or just bludgeoning them with words until they give up.
Convincing someone is about appealing to their needs and their preferences. It's about listening just as much as it is about talking. It's about finding out as much as you can about someone and explaining an idea to them in such a way that it appeals, even potentially altering the idea to fit. Actual rhetoric should be about coming to an agreement. It's the dialectic, right: thesis + antithesis = synthesis. You come together with two different ideas and make a third, new idea. When it's done among people who are speaking in good faith and respecting differences and all that jazz, it can be incredibly productive and constructive.
I had more to say than I thought. Perhaps that is Point #5. Or perhaps I'm just long-winded. Probably a combination of the two.
I'm more than happy to drop any current disputes and let bygones be bygones (so long as I am provided the same consideration).
To anyone who is willing to set the bickering aside:
If I have offended you, or have given you the impression that I was haranguing or hassing you; I do apologize. I get a little defensive and hair-trigger-ish when I feel that I'm being attacked or harassed, and I don't like the kind of person I become when that occurs.
What Happened to Fun?
The fun bled out to -10
when folks felt they had to bring ringers into a poll here.
Thats what happened to the fun, it turned into some kind of Win At All Costs competition.. a division into We & They instead of the good ole days of just All Of Us.
I doubt we can find it in the archives....
but back in the Glemax scramble
I pointed out that it will be the end of our Kinder Gentler modern forums,
we will get flooded with hostile posters from the D&D side of the boards
by getting put under the D&D parent forum
.... and now some D&D Version War has spilled into our happy corner of the boards
Then the last book came out and we were like WTF!?!?!?!?!?!....Then well okay we still discussed everything and anything.
Then a forum reorg happened in whch I (yes i) and a few others fought valinitly to keep the d20 modern forums or atleast the core forum. Then gleemaxx happened along with a mini migration over to BG. (I think it was at the point that we lost the largest number of folks) then we started thinking what do we want next in our modern......
IMO I don't think having a separate forum for a 4e modern will work,it would IMO only split what we left. But if you insist I point to the House Rules & Homebrew forum in fact I plan to talk to the VCL about this issue.
EDIT: This is what i sent webster the VCL
"Well more of an old issue that has reared its ugly head...but the d20 modern forum has become a ground of edition war type postings. This wasn't caused directly by the poll,it had been simmering since 4th had came out.
Some of the posters are calling for a 4e modern board,which I think is not needed due to the current unknown form of the future d20 modern rule set along with further fracturing the community. I think for now the best place for discussion with out those who dislike 4e getting involved,would be to move the modern postings that deal with 4e to the home brew area,since that is what they are in essence"
All this thread is doing is making the community sentiments even worse.
Really?
Cuz I was totally willing to make peace with anyone who wants to do the same.
All this thread is doing is making the community sentiments even worse.
I don't know. Until the last few posts, I thought people were pretty much working things out...
I don't know. Until the last few posts, I thought people were pretty much working things out...
we were and are... remember sometimes the best reply is no reply at all...
I'd like to thank Master Vega and The Real Orion for helping to bring Sanity back to the boards...
Cyber-Dave: Friends.
:D Backstabbist... you are making my head hurt... you create constructive posts in the 4E anime thread and the 4E Modern Classes thread and then drop a grenade in this thread... Why man? Why?
Aside from that situation, I think most of us are doing okay.
Can we turn the discussion toward how to return to that golden age we once enjoyed... without kicking one group out/silencing their opinions?
When the 4E stuff started, I enjoyed browsing over it. I even added to a particular thread in interest of helping them find out a solution to a problem they were having (vehicle HP). Now granted nothing bad came of that, I mean it was just an idea, but soon as I left the place went to hell (correlation=/=causation >_>) with flaming and such.
*fails to avoid feud*
I haven't really looked at them since then... still, any chance you guys can drop this war? You know, apologize, shake hands, that whole deal?
@ Wolf - I hate watching friends argue as bitterly as they have been. This is as much of a relief for me as it is for you. :P
Thanks for contributing.
I haven't really looked at them since then... still, any chance you guys can drop this war? You know, apologize, shake hands, that whole deal?
that would be nice.
we were and are... remember sometimes the best reply is no reply at all...
I'd like to thank Master Vega and The Real Orion for helping to bring Sanity back to the boards...
Cyber-Dave: Friends.
Backstabbist... you are making my head hurt... you create constructive posts in the 4E anime thread and the 4E Modern Classes thread and then drop a grenade in this thread... Why man? Why?
No one ever thanks me...lol
Dave>It was just an idea, I don't have all the answers.
Vega> That is what happened you LEFT....now you knwo never to leave again,lol
I don't want my idea to seen as kicking anyone out. I'm just trying to come up with another idea. I really don't think we have the numbers to keep a sub forum open.
I haven't really looked at them since then... still, any chance you guys can drop this war? You know, apologize, shake hands, that whole deal?
If the thread was one of the projects I was working on, there probably hasn't been much progress. I don't have a lot of free time at the moment (end of the semester, getting ready for finals and such), so I haven't been loyally slaving over my books like I used to.
As for the apologies, I already have, but I'll quote it below as a show of good faith.
To anyone who is willing to set the bickering aside:
If I have offended you, or have given you the impression that I was haranguing or hassing you; I do apologize. I get a little defensive and hair-trigger-ish when I feel that I'm being attacked or harassed, and I don't like the kind of person I become when that occurs.
If the thread was one of the projects I was working on, there probably hasn't been much progress. I don't have a lot of free time at the moment (end of the semester, getting ready for finals and such), so I haven't been loyally slaving over my books like I used to.
Happens to the best of us.
As for the apologies, I already have, but I'll quote it below as a show of good faith.
I've been paying attention. The comment was mostly directed at Backstabbist/Cyberdave... more specifically backstabbist vs. cyberdave.
remember sometimes the best reply is no reply at all...
You are right. I am sorry. I am not very good at turning the other cheek, or ignoring insults. I'll delete my response, and try not to rise to bait in the future.
Man, I think in my first month here I had a 100+ post digital-shouting match about d20 Future starship rules. Nostalgia is getting the best of you!
This board did go downhill though. It's why I now only visit periodically as opposed to daily. It could also be due to d20 Modern showing its age? And no one giving a crap about my threads? :P
P.S. if anybody can track down the proper link to my expanded engines, assuming its not been completely lost, that'd be wicked!
As for the 4e/3e stuff... why not just not post in the areas you're not interested in? Seems very simple. If you don't want Modern 4e, then don't participate in the 4e discussions about it. I mean, why would you? What would be the point? Convincing a bunch of other people to stop having fun? I don't get it. If you're convinced that 4e is the way to go, why bother with 3e discussions? I mean, same thing applies, right: why try to mess with someone else's fun? There's going to be some cross-over, of course, and people will toss ideas out there that don't always work for you, but, like I say, anyone who seems to be just acting antagonistically can go do so alone, in a corner, by themselves. No one's required to take any advice they read on these fora, and there's rarely one answer to any given question. Instead, there's a range of possibilities that you can choose from and bring back to your gaming table.
...
As for the 4e/3e stuff... why not just not post in the areas you're not interested in? Seems very simple...
It seems very simple, but speaking for myself here... even though I'd rather use Saga for a new Modern than 4E, I enjoy the mental exercise of problem solving. So I put my 2 cents into the 4E threads...
And I'm not the only person who does that.
Awww, c'mere ya fluffy lugs!
Oh, I get it, you guys all had a tiff and just needed a thread to make huggles in.
Awww, c'mere ya fluffy lugs!
I lol'd.
I suppose that's one way of putting it. >_>
Oh, I get it, you guys all had a tiff and just needed a thread to make huggles in.
Awww, c'mere ya fluffy lugs!
I don't hug (not even my parents).
But how about a hearty handshake?
An Awkward Hug requires 1 full-round action to initiate and1d4 full-round actions (reduced to 1+1d2 by the Macho feat) to complete. Once an awkward hug is complete, all participants feel the need to do something macho in order to break the awkwardness. All participants gain a +3 awkward bonus on all macho actions. There must be two or more participants to gain the bonus.
Requires a full-round action and confers +2 bonus to Angst for 1d4 turns. Must be performed in secluded area, and gains an additional, stackable +1 bonus if Angsty music is playing during action. Self-Hug will automatically become an Awkward Hug if anyone sees the user performing the action, and all Angst bonuses are nullified. Viewers of the Self-Hug receive a +4 awkward bonus towards the user, regardless. Self-Hug provokes an Attack of Opportunity.
Awkward Hug (ex)
An Awkward Hug requires 1 full-round action to initiate and1d4 full-round actions (reduced to 1+1d2 by the Macho feat) to complete. Once an awkward hug is complete, all participants feel the need to do something macho in order to break the awkwardness. All participants gain a +3 awkward bonus on all macho actions. There must be two or more participants to gain the bonus.
Self-Hug (requires class levels in Emo)
Requires a full-round action and confers +2 bonus to Angst for 1d4 turns. Must be performed in secluded area, and gains an additional, stackable +1 bonus if Angsty music is playing during action. Self-Hug will automatically become an Awkward Hug if anyone sees the user performing the action, and all Angst bonuses are nullified. Viewers of the Self-Hug receive a +4 awkward bonus towards the user, regardless. Self-Hug provokes an Attack of Opportunity.
If i see either one or both along with an Emo class in the next edition of modern or one of its splat books I WILL HUNT YOU BOTH DOWN!