What is the CR/EL for a country? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

What is the CR/EL for a country?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Ragitsu
Jun 14, 2009 2:57:49 Just curious...
#2
TheRealOrion
Jun 14, 2009 14:09:38 I can't think of any situation where you'd need it. Even if a single team took on a whole country, that confrontation would have to take the form of a series of discreet encounters, unless of course you have god-like/superhero PCs, who just swoop down and start laying waste to the place, I suppose, but even then, you'd have to take into account only those who fought back. You don't get XP just for trashing buildings (unless it's narratively-appropriate, I suppose). So you'd calculate a CR for the army, for the citizens who fight back, and maybe for the physical dangers of the whole thing. I'm not keen on giving out XP just for deliberately putting themselves in danger, though. Hell, I'm not keen on giving out XP for trying to "defeat" a whole country (every country has innocent bystanders). But that's as close to an answer to that question as I can muster.
#3
dbay
Jun 14, 2009 14:57:10 Depends on the situation, really. If the PCs have their own country, and you're doing some sort of world war campaign, I would give them campaign XP for winning. If theyre personally involved in the fight (evil overlord list strongly says you should not do this) then they should get XP for the individual encounters along the way. If they are both leading the army/country and fighting the battle (Evil Overlord list STRONGLY STRONGLY recommends against) then give them xp for both.

If the PCs get together and decide to go on a genocidal rampage, I would give them XP for anyone who stands in their way. Right or wrong is not what determines XP, or else evil campaigns wouldn't work.

In a country vs country, I would probably assign each country an ECL (effective COUNTRY level) and give xp based off of that. if their direct results of class features (like leadership or minions) then i would just go by the level of the leader.

Could you elaborate the question at all?
#4
TheRealOrion
Jun 14, 2009 15:38:32
If the PCs get together and decide to go on a genocidal rampage, I would give them XP for anyone who stands in their way. Right or wrong is not what determines XP, or else evil campaigns wouldn't work.

I suppose not (although I've never understood the desire to play genocidal maniacs), but whether the characters learn from it is the real question. A bunch of 15th-level supervillains mowing down defenceless civilians doesn't add up to any more XP than a bunch of 15th-level heroes mowing down 1st-level mooks. They get XP only when they're actually challenged, yes?
#5
Ragitsu
Jun 14, 2009 16:04:50 Yes, a group of Level 20 (or beyond) PCs with (perhaps) a small army going against, say, Serbia, in an all-out war.
#6
TheRealOrion
Jun 14, 2009 17:33:15 But that assumes that the entire nation of Serbia is going to (a) respond with violence and (b) constitutes a genuine threat. A lot of the people in the country you're invading are just going to run and/or hide. Also, looking at Table 7-8, p208 (CRB), I notice that it takes at least a CR 13 (i.e., 13th-level PC or equivalent) to earn any XP for a 20th-level character. Most of the threats will be below that, so the 20th-level villain PC isn't going to get any XP for those. Am I missing something here?
#7
runestar
Jun 14, 2009 19:49:59 It is like asking what the cr for difficult terrain is. ;)
#8
AnimeSniper
Jun 14, 2009 20:02:11 A few things to probably consider

1. What vantage point would the group be playing from... i.e. a private Military Contractors firm hired to protect the work crew in some country or take out priority targets for an armed military (Army of Two), the PC's are hired to retrieve items/people (Mercenaries), or are part of a resistence group trying to overthrow the regime/government...

2. Then what type of support do they have access to if any or do they have to steal/bribe/improvise all of their gear... I mean being able to snag a tank or chopper would greatly aid them in battle

3. Sabotaging the enemies equipment always comes in handy... that c4 the group stole comes in handy for disabling tank treads or blowing up the fuel/ammo depo

4. If the group starts at first level build up with small encounters till they meet the neccessary aid that they need or amass enough gear to warrant taking out the country

5. On the CR/EL maybe houserule it around what they are facing... i.e. a squad of tanks disabled increase by 1/2 for every 2 or 3 tanks, destroying the tank factory a flat CR with bonuses for each tank that maybe got destroyed/disabled when it blew

I'll post some more later as I mull it over
#9
Ragitsu
Jun 14, 2009 22:45:21 For those that play/played D&D, there were what we'd call "Epic Level Adventures" that typically take place beyond Level 20. This would definitely be an "Epic Level" modern day campaign.
#10
backstabbist
Jun 14, 2009 22:50:58 Its one of them catch 22's
You cannot engage an entire country in a single encounter,
but if you do manage to use some WMD then the encounter situation/environment was 'too easy' and you get hardly any XP.

Like sealing up the exits of a 5 level dungeon and using a Reverse Teraformer to convert all the atmo into Amonia and HydrogenPeroxide... and just running that machine for a week to collect al the XP for the entire dungon you killed/melted/eroded.
Mean GMs give hardly any XP for that even if it should have been hunfreds of thousands as a SuperEpic Encounter (high 'enemy' count).
#11
Ragitsu
Jun 14, 2009 22:57:20 The campaign would definitely take months up to a year, or even years, in-game.
#12
psininja
Jun 14, 2009 23:15:44 Barring superpowers and/or quite a bit of FX, no group of PCs should be able to take out a large army.

Take a thousand guys with AK-47s. A 20 is an automatic hit, regardless of attack bonus or defense score. So, out of a thousand guys, you're gonna get a virtual guarantee of fifty hits. A Burst Firing AK-47 will, on average, do 18 points of damage per hit. Assuming fifty hits per round is 900 points of damage per round.

That's just infantry. As a wise man once said, "Artillery is hurtful," Throw in some air strikes and the PCs will soon reconsider do-it-yourself empire building.
#13
TheRealOrion
Jun 15, 2009 2:44:23 Well, obviously, if a very small force is going to take on a country, it couldn't be a direct attack on that country's army. It would have to be a assassination of a leader or a coup or something like that. Even just guerrilla tactics. Anything other than "five idiots run straight at a wall of rifles."
#14
penchant
Jun 15, 2009 2:54:20 Keep in mind that the term 'country' is highly variable. You could conceivably take Vatican City (which is legally a country) in one encounter. Its the worlds smallest country and has a total population of less than 800. Don't ask me what the CR for that is... I'm just sayin'

But generally speaking, countries are generally a campaign objective and not an encounter (how do you randomly encounter France, I wonder?)

However, this is exactly the kind of question that makes these boards better than those 'other' gaming boards.

Cookie to you, sir
#15
TheRealOrion
Jun 15, 2009 3:09:54
how do you randomly encounter France, I wonder?

You wander around Western Europe flaunting your cheeses and wine. Duh.
#16
Ragitsu
Jun 15, 2009 5:49:27
However, this is exactly the kind of question that makes these boards better than those 'other' gaming boards.

Cookie to you, sir

I aim to please . The PCs may fare better against Japan, though.

The other danger is that other countries may involve themselves in the war. Hm...perhaps the PCs should fight the BBEG known as "the U.N" first?
#17
DwarfFighter
Jun 15, 2009 9:11:37
Just curious...

Other questions that crop up as frequently:

How many hit points does the declaration of independence have?
What is the size rating of the American Dream?
What is aligment of the Statue of Liberty?
What is the fighting space of communism?
What is the attack bonus of Rhode Island?
What is the flat-footed defense of George W. Bush's war against terror?
Does the war in Iraq advance by hit dice or by character class?

These things worry us all!

-DF
#18
backstabbist
Jun 15, 2009 21:29:32
What is the size rating of the American Dream

hah, easy- Col(-8)
the same size as a 100' Giant Robot, France, Sol, or a 9galaxy area of the cosmos

"What is aligment of the Statue of Liberty?"
Vertical

"What is the fighting space of communism?"
Communism only works internally, it has no reach and cannot threaten, only brag

"What is the attack bonus of Rhode Island?"
Melee or Ranged?
#19
Ragitsu
Jun 15, 2009 23:02:31
How many hit points does the declaration of independence have?

The DR is the real issue.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Ragitsu Jun 14, 2009 2:57:49	Just curious...
#2 TheRealOrion Jun 14, 2009 14:09:38	I can't think of any situation where you'd need it. Even if a single team took on a whole country, that confrontation would have to take the form of a series of discreet encounters, unless of course you have god-like/superhero PCs, who just swoop down and start laying waste to the place, I suppose, but even then, you'd have to take into account only those who fought back. You don't get XP just for trashing buildings (unless it's narratively-appropriate, I suppose). So you'd calculate a CR for the army, for the citizens who fight back, and maybe for the physical dangers of the whole thing. I'm not keen on giving out XP just for deliberately putting themselves in danger, though. Hell, I'm not keen on giving out XP for trying to "defeat" a whole country (every country has innocent bystanders). But that's as close to an answer to that question as I can muster.
#3 dbay Jun 14, 2009 14:57:10	Depends on the situation, really. If the PCs have their own country, and you're doing some sort of world war campaign, I would give them campaign XP for winning. If theyre personally involved in the fight (evil overlord list strongly says you should not do this) then they should get XP for the individual encounters along the way. If they are both leading the army/country and fighting the battle (Evil Overlord list STRONGLY STRONGLY recommends against) then give them xp for both. If the PCs get together and decide to go on a genocidal rampage, I would give them XP for anyone who stands in their way. Right or wrong is not what determines XP, or else evil campaigns wouldn't work. In a country vs country, I would probably assign each country an ECL (effective COUNTRY level) and give xp based off of that. if their direct results of class features (like leadership or minions) then i would just go by the level of the leader. Could you elaborate the question at all?
#4 TheRealOrion Jun 14, 2009 15:38:32	If the PCs get together and decide to go on a genocidal rampage, I would give them XP for anyone who stands in their way. Right or wrong is not what determines XP, or else evil campaigns wouldn't work. I suppose not (although I've never understood the desire to play genocidal maniacs), but whether the characters learn from it is the real question. A bunch of 15th-level supervillains mowing down defenceless civilians doesn't add up to any more XP than a bunch of 15th-level heroes mowing down 1st-level mooks. They get XP only when they're actually challenged, yes?
#5 Ragitsu Jun 14, 2009 16:04:50	Yes, a group of Level 20 (or beyond) PCs with (perhaps) a small army going against, say, Serbia, in an all-out war.
#6 TheRealOrion Jun 14, 2009 17:33:15	But that assumes that the entire nation of Serbia is going to (a) respond with violence and (b) constitutes a genuine threat. A lot of the people in the country you're invading are just going to run and/or hide. Also, looking at Table 7-8, p208 (CRB), I notice that it takes at least a CR 13 (i.e., 13th-level PC or equivalent) to earn any XP for a 20th-level character. Most of the threats will be below that, so the 20th-level villain PC isn't going to get any XP for those. Am I missing something here?
#7 runestar Jun 14, 2009 19:49:59	It is like asking what the cr for difficult terrain is. ;)
#8 AnimeSniper Jun 14, 2009 20:02:11	A few things to probably consider 1. What vantage point would the group be playing from... i.e. a private Military Contractors firm hired to protect the work crew in some country or take out priority targets for an armed military (Army of Two), the PC's are hired to retrieve items/people (Mercenaries), or are part of a resistence group trying to overthrow the regime/government... 2. Then what type of support do they have access to if any or do they have to steal/bribe/improvise all of their gear... I mean being able to snag a tank or chopper would greatly aid them in battle 3. Sabotaging the enemies equipment always comes in handy... that c4 the group stole comes in handy for disabling tank treads or blowing up the fuel/ammo depo 4. If the group starts at first level build up with small encounters till they meet the neccessary aid that they need or amass enough gear to warrant taking out the country 5. On the CR/EL maybe houserule it around what they are facing... i.e. a squad of tanks disabled increase by 1/2 for every 2 or 3 tanks, destroying the tank factory a flat CR with bonuses for each tank that maybe got destroyed/disabled when it blew I'll post some more later as I mull it over
#9 Ragitsu Jun 14, 2009 22:45:21	For those that play/played D&D, there were what we'd call "Epic Level Adventures" that typically take place beyond Level 20. This would definitely be an "Epic Level" modern day campaign.
#10 backstabbist Jun 14, 2009 22:50:58	Its one of them catch 22's You cannot engage an entire country in a single encounter, but if you do manage to use some WMD then the encounter situation/environment was 'too easy' and you get hardly any XP. Like sealing up the exits of a 5 level dungeon and using a Reverse Teraformer to convert all the atmo into Amonia and HydrogenPeroxide... and just running that machine for a week to collect al the XP for the entire dungon you killed/melted/eroded. Mean GMs give hardly any XP for that even if it should have been hunfreds of thousands as a SuperEpic Encounter (high 'enemy' count).
#11 Ragitsu Jun 14, 2009 22:57:20	The campaign would definitely take months up to a year, or even years, in-game.
#12 psininja Jun 14, 2009 23:15:44	Barring superpowers and/or quite a bit of FX, no group of PCs should be able to take out a large army. Take a thousand guys with AK-47s. A 20 is an automatic hit, regardless of attack bonus or defense score. So, out of a thousand guys, you're gonna get a virtual guarantee of fifty hits. A Burst Firing AK-47 will, on average, do 18 points of damage per hit. Assuming fifty hits per round is 900 points of damage per round. That's just infantry. As a wise man once said, "Artillery is hurtful," Throw in some air strikes and the PCs will soon reconsider do-it-yourself empire building.
#13 TheRealOrion Jun 15, 2009 2:44:23	Well, obviously, if a very small force is going to take on a country, it couldn't be a direct attack on that country's army. It would have to be a assassination of a leader or a coup or something like that. Even just guerrilla tactics. Anything other than "five idiots run straight at a wall of rifles."
#14 penchant Jun 15, 2009 2:54:20	Keep in mind that the term 'country' is highly variable. You could conceivably take Vatican City (which is legally a country) in one encounter. Its the worlds smallest country and has a total population of less than 800. Don't ask me what the CR for that is... I'm just sayin' But generally speaking, countries are generally a campaign objective and not an encounter (how do you randomly encounter France, I wonder?) However, this is exactly the kind of question that makes these boards better than those 'other' gaming boards. Cookie to you, sir
#15 TheRealOrion Jun 15, 2009 3:09:54	how do you randomly encounter France, I wonder? You wander around Western Europe flaunting your cheeses and wine. Duh.
#16 Ragitsu Jun 15, 2009 5:49:27	However, this is exactly the kind of question that makes these boards better than those 'other' gaming boards. Cookie to you, sir I aim to please . The PCs may fare better against Japan, though. The other danger is that other countries may involve themselves in the war. Hm...perhaps the PCs should fight the BBEG known as "the U.N" first?
#17 DwarfFighter Jun 15, 2009 9:11:37	Just curious... Other questions that crop up as frequently: How many hit points does the declaration of independence have? What is the size rating of the American Dream? What is aligment of the Statue of Liberty? What is the fighting space of communism? What is the attack bonus of Rhode Island? What is the flat-footed defense of George W. Bush's war against terror? Does the war in Iraq advance by hit dice or by character class? These things worry us all! -DF
#18 backstabbist Jun 15, 2009 21:29:32	What is the size rating of the American Dream hah, easy- Col(-8) the same size as a 100' Giant Robot, France, Sol, or a 9galaxy area of the cosmos "What is aligment of the Statue of Liberty?" Vertical "What is the fighting space of communism?" Communism only works internally, it has no reach and cannot threaten, only brag "What is the attack bonus of Rhode Island?" Melee or Ranged?
#19 Ragitsu Jun 15, 2009 23:02:31	How many hit points does the declaration of independence have? The DR is the real issue.