I have kinda skimmed through it, and yes, the Mecha rules are broken (They can't hurt each other), and Starship rules are broken too (It seems a PC could take them out).
I hear people say Gadget rules are broken, as are mutations.... Any examples? Or why?
I know most of this is common knowledge by now, but please, humour me...
Ok, I see a lot of hate for d20 Future, and a lot of people say it is broken.
I have kinda skimmed through it, and yes, the Mecha rules are broken (They can't hurt each other), and Starship rules are broken too (It seems a PC could take them out).
I hear people say Gadget rules are broken, as are mutations.... Any examples? Or why?
I know most of this is common knowledge by now, but please, humour me...
Gadget system: "Pocket Machine Gun Syndrome" You can shrink heavy weapons down to pocket sized, cannons and big guns down to rifle size, and field artillery down to bipod size. None of this shrinkage affects the effectiveness of the weapons what-so-ever. This is in addition to how, especially with firearms, logically many gadgets don't make a damn bit of sense at all. If in the future you can make a rifle thats just as powerful as a 105mm tank cannon (10d12 damage), why bother with a 3d10 plasma gun?
Mutations: Too many mutation point loopholes, way too many to be considered balanced without heavy houseruling.
And before anyone starts in: Just because you can houserule something doesn't mean there isn't a problem with it.
Hire occupation buys skill plexus fils it iwth profession skill implants and then buys the feat plexus filling it with the Windfall feat implants...and then drops his rep by 1 thus never going below a 10 welath bonus with the above mentioned cricle of unlimtied wealth.
The D20 Modern game works more like a toolkit for a campaign that the DM has to use to make something work. Just like with the core book where you decide what classes to allow and what FX abilities you game will support (if any) you need to use the Future supplements similarly. In a game with no magic, the mage PrC is just as broken as anything in the Future book.
It was said that the rules don't work without house rules, but its my opinion that in order to play any Modern game you start with house rules. There isn't one you can just run out of the box, even with the Urban Arcana CS.
And an example of the aforementioned "Pocket Machine Gun Syndrome" in a Sci-Fi setting: The gun used by Gene Simmons in the movie Runaway was a handgun that fired solid fuel heat seeking missiles that could target specific heat signatures and avoid obstacles, turn corners, etc. It was solidly PL 6 but the weapon was advanced for its time, being a prototype. Allow PC's to have such a thing and it could get very bad.
On mutations, I have always felt that they should be inflicted on players, not chosen by them.
One last note. While its true that you can make some ridiculous things with the gadget system, they also get ridiculously hard to meet the Purchase DC. It all still costs money, remember.
Dreadnought - Because... just read the class. At Level 10 you can dual-wield railguns with only the one-handed weapon penalties. On top of that, you can increase your dex so that those penalties don't matter. HD is a D12... and you are a champion with armor among other things. Compare the class to the D20Modern ones and see what I mean.
Engineer - Because he makes Techie cry with his uber-crafting skills, and has a 3/4 BAB for kicks and giggles.
Field Officer - A charismatic class with a full BAB? Really...? Really really? Really, really-really?
Don't get me started on Tracer... Actually, get backstabbist started on Tracter. I'm sure he can go into even more detail about why it's broken like crazy.
One last note. While its true that you can make some ridiculous things with the gadget system, they also get ridiculously hard to meet the Purchase DC. It all still costs money, remember
please apply TrappedSliders post to this concept
....................
Future problems
- The artificial damage cap: As technology gets better, guns, dont really get better.
- In the days of mechs replacing tanks, m72LAW rockets were replaced with... infantry bodybags.
If a 10d6 shoulder rocket is obsoleted by more powerful sfrockets now, shouldnt there be pl6 5lb LAW6 15d6 and 5lb LAW7 20d6 rockets. - The minigrenades are as powerful as full sized grenades, and full sized grenades are as powerful.... oops, wait, full size grenades dont exist for some reason... oh right, Damage Cap- they would be too good.
- How many different 1handed firearms are there to choose from?
How many 1handed Plasmaguns are there? - Whats the hardness of the armor material Vanadium? Somehow it is different hardness for mechs than ships
- Mech weapons have insanely short ranges
please apply TrappedSliders post to this concept
....................
Future problems
- The artificial damage cap: As technology gets better, guns, dont really get better.
- In the days of mechs replacing tanks, m72LAW rockets were replaced with... infantry bodybags.
If a 10d6 shoulder rocket is obsoleted by more powerful sfrockets now, shouldnt there be pl6 5lb LAW6 15d6 and 5lb LAW7 20d6 rockets.- The minigrenades are as powerful as full sized grenades, and full sized grenades are as powerful.... oops, wait, full size grenades dont exist for some reason... oh right, Damage Cap- they would be too good.
- How many different 1handed firearms are there to choose from?
How many 1handed Plasmaguns are there?- Whats the hardness of the armor material Vanadium? Somehow it is different hardness for mechs than ships
- Mech weapons have insanely short ranges
I'm sorry, but I don't see what this has to do with cost as a limitation. If you take something that starts out with a Purchase DC of 22 (Heavy machine gun 2d12 damage) and add the Miniaturized gadget to it (+5) you could get an 2d12 hand cannon (Large weapon to small) that is a DC27 to get. Its still possible and still broken, but it costs more money. And realistically, just because something has been reduced from large to small size, DOESN'T mean it can be wielded one handed.
Now Trappedslider does make good points. Mine point is that most brokenness doesn't take into consideration how much it would cost to do so. You could take all the gadets and make the ZF-1, but it would have a PDC of 50.
I'm sorry, but I don't see what this has to do with cost as a limitation. If you take something that starts out with a Purchase DC of 22 (Heavy machine gun 2d12 damage) and add the Miniaturized gadget to it (+5) you could get an 2d12 hand cannon (Large weapon to small) that is a DC27 to get. Its still possible and still broken, but it costs more money. And realistically, just because something has been reduced from large to small size, DOESN'T mean it can be wielded one handed.
Now Trappedslider does make good points. Mine point is that most brokenness doesn't take into consideration how much it would cost to do so. You could take all the gadets and make the ZF-1, but it would have a PDC of 50.
okay for example the heir occupation's wealth thingy :Wealth Bonus Increase: +6. An heir may permanently reduce her Reputation bonus by 1 to increase her starting wealth bonus by an additional +1d6; this expenditure must be made before the character begins play. As long as her Reputation bonus is +1 or higher, an heir’s wealth bonus can never drop below 10
okay
so you've taken that and already maxed out your profession and taken the windfall feat and then here is the skill implant
Skill Implant (PL 6)
This small brain implant enables its recipient to perform a specific skill more adroitly.
Benefit: The recipient gains a +2 competence bonus on checks made with one class skill of his choice. Different skills require different implants, and a skill implant cannot be modified to grant a bonus to another skill.
A recipient may have multiple skill implants, but each is considered a separate cybernetic attachment.
Type: Internal.
Hardness/Hit Points: –/1.
Base Purchase DC: 20.
Restriction: None.
then heres the feat implant
Feat Implant (PL 7)
Thanks to a chip implanted in the recipient’s brain or a series of implants wired to the recipient’s nervous system, the recipient gains special knowledge or some extraordinary ability.
Benefit: The feat implant gives the recipient a feat. The recipient must meet all of the feat’s prerequisites to gain its benefits. If the feat implant is destroyed, the granted feat is lost as well. A feat implant cannot duplicate a metamagic or psionic feat.
Type: Internal.
Hardness/Hit Points: –/5.
Base Purchase DC: 25.
Restriction: Military (+3).
Skill Plexus (PL 7)
This unit, implanted in the recipient’s brain, allows multiple skill implants to function as a single cybernetic attachment (see Skill Implant, above).
Benefit: The recipient may have up to four skill implants attached to the skill plexus, and together they are treated as a single cybernetic attachment. However, if the skill plexus is destroyed, all of the attached skill implants are destroyed as well.
Type: Internal.
Hardness/Hit Points: –/4.
Base Purchase DC: 25 (does not include skill implants).
Restriction: None.
and then heres the feat one
Feat Plexus (PL 8)
This unit, implanted in the recipient’s brain, allows multiple feat implants to function as a single cybernetic attachment (see Feat Implant, above).
Benefit: The recipient may have up to four feat implants attached to the feat plexus, and together they are treated as a single cybernetic attachment. However, if the feat plexus is destroyed, all of the attached feat implants are destroyed as well.
Type: Internal.
Hardness/Hit Points: –/4.
Base Purchase DC: 25 (does not include feat implants).
Restriction: Military (+3)
so the windfall feat gives you Windfall
Benefit: The character’s Wealth bonus increases by +3. Also, this feat provides a +1 bonus on all Profession checks.
Special: A character can select this feat multiple times. Each time, both of its effects stack.
so +3 times 4 + +1 times four times 4 times 2 and thats not counting the ranks in profession to begin with....and then times that all by however many times the character does it
jim takes hire and bumps his profession which is 4 up to 12 thanks to that roll and the increase form the ocuupation
so,he then adds the windfall which he took three times +3 so thats 9 bumping it up to 21 and then by RAW he is able to get the Feat Implant and choses windfall...see where i'm going iwth this the next buy would be a skill implant for profession followed by feat
the short answer is that Future RAW has massive failure to limit Wealth
so unbalanced Uber stuff cannot be balanced out with high PDCs.
so with the above in mind lets make jim the mega rich dude
jim takes hire and bumps his profession which is 4 up to 12 thanks to that roll and the increase form the ocuupation
so,he then adds the windfall which he took three times +3 so thats 9 bumping it up to 21 and then by RAW he is able to get the Feat Implant and choses windfall...see where i'm going iwth this the next buy would be a skill implant for profession followed by feat
Any GM that allows his players to exploit the rules like that deserves to have a broken campaign...
Just because the Heir Occupation is available as an option doesn't mean you have to allow it in your campaign... just like magic in the core rules... just because its available doesn't mean you have to include it into your campaign... furthermore, it is well within your rights (and some might say its your responsibility) as the GM to say that windfall is not a feat that can be taken by the feat plexus since it is clearly intended to affect your physical and mental abilities...
You know I've been gaming for a long time, and I've noticed something...
The more detailed the rules, the Dumber Game Masters become.
In Basic D&D, the rules were simple and a LOT was left of to the DM to adjudicate. Now in the D20 system, the rules are very detailed so GMs have abdicated their responsibility to maintain game balance claiming that if something is broken, it the designer's fault.
Now the designers surely deserve some (a Lot of) blame, knowing that every supplement they put out breaks the game a little more, paving the way for the inevitable demand for a new edition, and thus the financial survival of the company...
But Really... GMs have to take some responsibility for their games!
Yes, the starship rules ARE clunky.
Yes, the mechs CAN'T damage each other.
Yes, the Future Advanced classes ARE too good.
BUT
Quit complaining about exploiting loopholes in the rules... that's YOUR job to police... and it has been since the birth of RPGs...
to compile a list of things in RAW the gm needs to fix before playing,
is not different from a list of stuff that is broken.
Yes, the GM can put in his own fixes to RAW.
But some of those fixes are like
"Replace entire mecha chapter with houserules, then replace entire Ships chapter with houserules that fit with mecha & vehicles"
Despite it not being specifically stated, it is impossible to buy something that instantly gives you money, unless it is something like a scratch and win. My DM is concious, so that would be out...
And.... ok... I am starting to see it. Also, a lot of the equipment looks kinda... boring.
Waylan,
to compile a list of things in RAW the gm needs to fix before playing,
is not different from a list of stuff that is broken.
Yes, the GM can put in his own fixes to RAW.
But some of those fixes are like
"Replace entire mecha chapter with houserules, then replace entire Ships chapter with houserules that fit with mecha & vehicles"
Backstabbist, I'm not talking about the starship and mecha rules... in fact, I agree that they don't work and said as much in my previous post.
If the rules for starship and mecha combat don't work, the designers didn't do their jobs.
But I'm talking about "easily exploitable" rules...
If the players are exploiting the rules, the DM isn't doing HIS job.
As far as the damage issue goes, that's a design philosophy (flaw?) inherent to D20 Modern itself, not Future alone.
but it still applies:
If the easily exploitable rules need to be fixed by the GM,
then they are broken
That doesn't make the rules themselves broken... it makes them undesirable in my game.
Like FX abilities... I don't care if the rules allow you to play a mage... we're playing a Rainbow Six campaign...
but in what campaign does anyone choose allow the Heir Feat Plexus exploit for unlimited wealth?
or does that rule get fixed by every gm
yes, we all agree that there is some responsibility on GMs to adjucate the rules,
but we hope those are unclear rules as opposed to rules that clearly say something wrong
and that doesnt have anything to do with a GM excluding Mages from a rainbow6 campaign,
is has to do with rules that exist that need to not exist for all campigns
You exclude Mages this time to fit your campaign, but you cross out the Heir-Plexus garbage from the book forever and write in non-broken text that may or may not be used in a BladeRunner campaign depending on how Implanty the GM wants to run his campaign
as for the feat plexus... sure they could have added some text saying this doesn't apply to the windfall feat... but maybe the designers Assumed that no GM would be dumb enough to allow such a mis-use of the rules as intended.
Don't get me wrong... I'm not trying to say that there aren't SERIOUS problems with D20 future, I'm just saying that in ANY game system, its up to the GM to say No to game breaking rules or rule combos... and if the system is that bad, its up to the GM to say No to buying those rules and inflicting them on his players.
Of course with most of us, we bought the rules and then said "WHAAAA????"
At that point you house rule or find another system.
In fact, the artificial game balance and inconsistent construction rules are what motivated me to create my own game system... (still under construction)
1. That the game setting has PL 8 cybernets availible,
2. He can a high enough Con Mod for that many implants (for both plexus' he would need a Con of at least 14).
As for Mecha weapons I've used two fixes;
1. Damage scales up with mecha size, the the damage listed is for large mechs and improves for every size above large, makings collosal mecha the terrors of the battlefield they should be.
2. In space the range for mecha flight movement and weapons are multiplied by 10.
Ok with Jim the super wealth guy, that requires couple of things;
1. That the game setting has PL 8 cybernets availible,
2. He can a high enough Con Mod for that many implants (for both plexus' he would need a Con of at least 14).
cybertaker my frined...
and heres what BP says about the issue:
While my friend and I were making d20 Future characters the other day, we came across a mean infinite loop involving the cybernetic device called a feat plexus. The problem lies in the Windfall and Cybertaker feats.
Windfall and Cybertaker cannot be incorporated into a feat plexus. Conceptually speaking, a feat plexus is a cybernetic implant that allows a character to add new information, skills, reflexes, and maneuvers -- in other words, benefits that could reasonably be learned or gained through training. Thus, the GM should disallow any feat that doesn't match this concept in a feat plexus. In general, if you spot a combination that looks like an unreasonable loophole in the rules, assume you can't use it.
an unreasonable loophole that shouldn't be there to start with...
so with the above in mind lets make jim the mega rich dude
jim takes hire and bumps his profession which is 4 up to 12 thanks to that roll and the increase form the ocuupation
so,he then adds the windfall which he took three times +3 so thats 9 bumping it up to 21 and then by RAW he is able to get the Feat Implant and choses windfall...see where i'm going iwth this the next buy would be a skill implant for profession followed by feat
While this is a compelling argument that the Windfall feat needs an errata and/or that only skill or knowledge based feats should be allowed for cyber implant, I still don't see what this has to do with the gadget system. Cybernetics is in a different section from the gadget system and a totally different part of the book. I don't even know if you can combine the gadget system with cybernetics since it is written for equipment.
While this is a compelling argument that the Windfall feat needs an errata and/or that only skill or knowledge based feats should be allowed for cyber implant, I still don't see what this has to do with the gadget system. Cybernetics is in a different section from the gadget system and a totally different part of the book. I don't even know if you can combine the gadget system with cybernetics since it is written for equipment.
I think your confusing my post with Back's....
you brought up the PDC of the gadgets...and back mentioned that my post was a way to go aorund the PDC of any gadget along iwth another thing you may wanna buy
I think your confusing my post with Back's....
you brought up the PDC of the gadgets...and back mentioned that my post was a way to go aorund the PDC of any gadget along iwth another thing you may wanna buy
Oh, the dreaded conversation triangle. All becomes clear.
In any case, I think the greater conversation (and the point of this thread) is that there are many things in Future that are "broken" in the sense that many things can come together that, while not making alot of logical sense, is RAW legal and can hose a game. Other stuff just doesn't work well at all.
We were perhaps spoiled by the great amount of playtesting and editing that WotC devoted to the D&D version of D20 that we think of it more like a machine that runs itself and doesn't need alot of maintenance. We let players build characters on their own and anything they want is ok, so long as it is in the rules. After all, that's the way its supposed to be.
Back in the day (Begin old man rant), we just winged it. There wasn't so much of a system as there was general guidelines to get you started, and when you ran into a hitch or a typo or just bad writing, you shrugged your shoulders giving the player a "you should know better than that" look and moved on. Game supplements came in black and white and sometimes were spiral bound. You took a pen, made notes in the book and moved on.
Are there things that are broken? yeah. Is there anything useful in the book? Sure there is, tons of it. Just get a mirror and learn the "You should know better than that" look and have a fun game. If it breaks, fix it. Ball point pen still writes on these glossy color pages.
Problem is, Future wasn't really marketed as a GM toolbox, it's a book the players can pick up and read just like d20 Modern or most D&D books that don't say "OMG DMs ONLY!"
I love Future though. Some of the stuff in there is just good fun. I've never even made a Mecha, except for ONE time.......
The WereNought
Race: Weren
Starting Ability Scores: 20 Str, 13 Dex, 14 Con, 11 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha.
Starting Occupation: Law Enforcement (Chosen class skills: Intimidate, Listen. Bonus feat: Light Armor Proficiency
1st level: Strong Hero 1 – BAB 1, Fortitude 1/Reflex 0/Will 0, Defense +1 Simple Weapons Proficiency, Improved Damage Threshold, Melee Smash Talent, Knowledge (tactics) 3 ranks, Listen 1 rank, Intimidate 4 ranks.
2nd level: Strong Hero 2 – BAB 2, Fortitude 2/Ref 0/Will 0, Defense +2, Power Attack, Indimidate 5 ranks, Listen 2 ranks
3rd level: Strong Hero 3 – BAB 3, Fortitude 2/Ref 1/ Will 1, Defense +2, Tough Hero Plus (Fire Resistance, Remain Conscious), Improved Melee Smash, Intimidate 6 ranks, Listen 3 ranks, +1 Intelligence.
4th level: Strong Hero 3/Dreadnought 1– BAB 3, Fort 4/Ref 1/Will 2, Defense +3, Listen 5 ranks. Abilities: Fearless, Stability, Unhindered.
5th Level: Strong Hero 3/Dreadnought 2 – BAB 4, Fort 5/Ref 1/Will 3, Defense +4, Listen 7 ranks. Abilities: Ability surge (1/day), steamroller.
6th Level: Strong Hero 3/Dreadnought 3 – BAB 5, Fort 5/Ref 2/Will 3, Defense +4, Listen 9 ranks. Personal Firearms Proficiency, Two-Weapon Fighting.
7th Level: Strong Hero 3/Dreadnought 4 – BAB 6/1, Fort 6/Ref 2/Will 3, Defense +4, Listen 10 ranks, Concentration 1 rank, +1 Strength, Abilities: Master Defender (+2).
8th Level: Strong Hero 3/Dreadnought 5 – BAB 6/1, Fort 6/Ref 2/Will 4, Defense +5, Listen 11 ranks, Concentration 2 ranks, Abilities: Ability surge (2/day), Knockdown.
9th level: Strong Hero 3/Dreadnought 6 – BAB 7/2, Fort 7/Ref 3/Will 4, Defense +5, Listen 12 ranks, Concentration 3 ranks. Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Avenger Electro-Scimitar), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
10th level: Strong Hero 3/Dreadnought 7 – BAB 8/3, Fort 7/Ref 3/Will 5, Defense +5, Listen 13 ranks, Concentration 4 ranks. Abilities: Master Defender (+4).
11th level: Strong Hero 3/Dreadnought 8 – BAB 9/4, Fort 8/Ref 3/Will 5, Defense +6, Listen 14 ranks, Concentration 5 ranks, +1 Strength. Abilities: Ability surge (3/day), Heavy Artillery.
12th level: Strong Hero 4/Dreadnought 8 – BAB 10/5, Fort 8/Ref 3/Will 5, Defense +7, Listen 15 ranks, Concentration 6 ranks, Advanced Two-Weapon Fighting, Cleave.
13th level: Strong Hero 4/Dreadnought 8/Fast Hero 1 – BAB 10/5, Fort 8/Ref 4/Will 5, Defense +10, Listen 16 ranks, Jump 1 rank, Evasion.
14th level: Strong Hero 4/Dreadnought 8/Fast Hero 1/Soldier 1 – BAB 10/5, Fort 9/Ref 5/Will 5, Defense +11, Listen 17 ranks, Jump 4 ranks. Abilities: Weapon Focus (Avenger Electro-Scimitar).
15th level: Strong Hero 4/Dreadnought 8/Fast Hero 1/Soldier 2 – BAB 11/6/1, Fort 10/Ref 6/Will 5, Defense +11, Listen 18 ranks, Jump 7 ranks, +1 Strength. Run, Abilities: Weapon Specialization (Avenger Electro-Scimitar).
16th level: Strong Hero 4/Dreadnought 8/Fast Hero 1/Soldier 3 – BAB 12/7/2, Fort 10/Ref 6/Will 6, Defense +12, Listen 19 ranks, Jump 10 ranks, Great Cleave.
17th level: Strong Hero 4/Dreadnought 8/Fast Hero 1/Soldier 4 – BAB 13/8/3, Fort 10/Ref 6/Will 6, Defense +12, Listen 20 ranks, Jump 13 ranks. Abilities: Tactical Aid.
18th level: Strong Hero 4/Dreadnought 8/Fast Hero 1/Soldier 5 – BAB 13/8/3, Fort 11/Ref 7/Will 6, Defense +13, Listen 21 ranks, Jump 16 ranks. Fast Plus (Uncanny Dodge 1, Uncanny Dodge 2), Abilities: Improved Critical (Avenger Electro-Scimitar).
19th level: Strong Hero 4/Dreadnought 8/Fast Hero 1/Soldier 5/Bodyguard 1 – BAB 13/8/3, Fort 12/Ref 9/Will 6, Defense +14, Listen 22 ranks, +1 Strength. Abilities: Harm’s way.
Cybernetics:
Artifical Muscle Fiber (+6 Str)
Artificial Twitch Fiber (+6 Dex)
Jump Pistons (+10 Jump)
Destrier System (+1 size category, 50 move feet)
Neuron Boosters (+6 Int)
Proverb Chip (+6 Wis)
Personality Mapping (+6 Cha)
Organ Remapping (+5 MDT, +4 Fort vs. Mas)
Redundant Organs (+6 Con)
Anti-shock Implant (No cybernetic electricity vulnerability)
Subcutaneous Body Armor Heavy +8
Mutations:
Ability Decay (Charisma) x2
Enlarged Form
Energy Diffusion [Fire resistance 10]
Gear:
+3 Mastercraft Undercover Vest
Colossal Avenger Electro-Scimitar
Gargantuan Avenger Electro-Scimitar
**Note: Doesn't even use gadgets.
Oh yeah? That one mecha I used? Colossal, pitted it against this guy and lost badly.
so with the above in mind lets make jim the mega rich dude
jim takes hire and bumps his profession which is 4 up to 12 thanks to that roll and the increase form the ocuupation
so,he then adds the windfall which he took three times +3 so thats 9 bumping it up to 21 and then by RAW he is able to get the Feat Implant and choses windfall...see where i'm going iwth this the next buy would be a skill implant for profession followed by feat
this is no logner broken unless you cal forming an infinte feedback loop broken
We did one time talk about miniaturizing the Mecha Recoiless Rifle to a human sized weapon. But, we all agreed it was blatant power gaming and unnecessary. Besides, I think BFG thinking shows lack of skill on the players part. Focus fire and tactics win more and is more fun than excessive use of heavy firepower.
One last note on my thoughts weapon damages should not go up much with PL. A GM once said a city we where flying away from was hit with a 500 Megaton Nuclear bomb. I asked why so powerful. He stated that the enemy wanted to make sure the city was destroyed. Anyone who has seen pictures of Hiroshima can tell you a 5 Megaton Bomb is more than enough. 500 is a immense waste of resources and overkill to the extreme. Weapon builders and Armies build and use weapons that are not only effective but also cost effective. In the end I feel that people should just stop and think about how much damage they should expect, especially from a hand-held type weapon.
For those who say "yeah but what if we are fighting Mecha or Vehicles"..simple...get your own.
Sorry yet another long rant...keep up all the great posts!:D
We did one time talk about miniaturizing the Mecha Recoiless Rifle to a human sized weapon.
Gyrojet gun technology + (m72LAW / m67 90mm Recoiless) technology = infantry recoiless.
Or look up the m202 Flash.
In pl6+, better explosives will yield current 67mm damage in a 40mm package
Weapon builders and Armies build and use weapons that are not only effective but also cost effective. In the end I feel that people should just stop and think about how much damage they should expect, especially from a hand-held type weapon.
m72LAW --> AT4 --> Dragon --> Javelin
After a history of building shoulderfire AntiTank rockets,
why would we just stop?
In the future, when infantry get engaged by armor,
they should raid a museum for old PL5 weapons to engage the PL6+ mechs / tanks.
For those who say "yeah but what if we are fighting Mecha or Vehicles"..simple...get your own.
Mecha vs Mecha combat does not work well in d20 Future without heavy houseruling (or switching to different, superior, mech rules entirely).
In a future setting technology aids infantry with better sensors and intelligence gathering gear to warn them of an impending Armor attack. And mostly keep in mind that Tanks were invented to break sieges, i.e. fortifications during the first world war. This means destroying Bunkers, artillery emplacement and eventually other tanks. In the Second world war the most deviating ant-tank weapon was the Tank-killer Artillery tanks. Modern Battlefields are outright deadly since the invention of gunpowder. I think if you put too much realism into it then the players have no business being there.
In the D20 Future setting I think many advanced space faring races would use Robot vehicles and True robot infantry to do their fighting.
Finally a famous quote sums it all up..."War is hell". Nothing is certain and the best plans never survive first contact with the enemy.:D
Gyrojet gun technology + (m72LAW / m67 90mm Recoiless) technology = infantry recoiless.
Or look up the m202 Flash.
In pl6+, better explosives will yield current 67mm damage in a 40mm package
m72LAW --> AT4 --> Dragon --> Javelin
After a history of building shoulderfire AntiTank rockets,
why would we just stop?
In the future, when infantry get engaged by armor,
they should raid a museum for old PL5 weapons to engage the PL6+ mechs / tanks.
I have not seen D20 stats on the Flash. But the Warpath has a 20 round box Magazine vs the M202 has 4, AND it has Semi-auto and Auto rates of fire. I am not sure of the munitions either, but we were talking about none-HE rounds, i.e. solid slugs. But either way, higher ammo capacity is preferable to pure massive damage. Unless you don't care about collateral damage.
Heck one of my players keeps offering me $50 cash if I let him have a micronized Singularity Cannon. Sadly $50 is not worth the headache it would bring. :D
But either way, higher ammo capacity is preferable to pure massive damage
Which is why folks shoot cape buffalo and APCs with P90s.
If you want high ammo capacity, why even mention the Warpath? Put a drum on a ruger10-22 and have hundreds of ammo.... unless the crux really is about getting Warpath damage without a mech to carry it.
Have a PL6 guy get schematics for the current AA-12 autoshotgun from a museum,
and manufacture them with the "microgrenade" ammo that is used in the silly little PL6 grenade pistol. It is a simple enough concept: We have 20mm low velocity auto guns, we have 20mm microgrenades (low velocity enough for a pistol), while it is obvious to everyone here to just put the 20mm LV grenades into the 20mm (~12ga) auto gun... for some reason not a single engineer in PL6 came up with it. Gotta love that AGB (artificial game balance), they didnt make the good gun because it would be too good.
You have encountered another brokeness with d20Future:
Explosives can and do get smaller, but WILL not stay the same size with more power.
They can make a 4d6 Frag into a microgrenade, but choose not to make standard size grenades using the same technology to do 6d6 or 8d6. They can and do make 10d6 Microrocket Pistol, but not 15d6 RegularRocket shoulderfire...... thay can use an advanced explosive to be just as powerful with quarter the size, but wont stay the same size and use 4x as much explosives as the smaller 10d6 microrocket.
but we were talking about none-HE rounds, i.e. solid slugs
We are?
I thought we were talking about Recoilless Rifles, so I envisioned what RR fire... what do you envision RR firing? HE? HEAT? Beehive?
[indent]WARPATH RECOILLESS RIFLE (PL 5)
The Warpath recoilless rifle is a rapid-fire cannon that fires shells that detonate on impact. Each shell deals 10d6 points of damage, and the system’s magazine holds 20 shells.[/indent]
That 'cannon' gets a whopping 40' Range Inc.... Holy low velocity ammo Batman!
I dont see where you got solid slugs from, but if you really want to use just KE impactors we are again looking at Gyrojet (or Rocket Assist) technology for recoilless select fire magfed heavy weapons. Just make a 20mm gyrojet assault rifle using PL6 propellants and impactor. But then, just like we now can switch AP and HollowPoints in a m16 magazine, there is no reason to not have the PL6 Gyrogun fire 10d6 HEDP rockets as well as KE impactor rockets, auto rate... wiki says they had a gyrojet machinegun designed but not built.
anyhoo,
for further study on the subject, I suggest finding the Pocket Machinegun thread (or either of my other example posts of Miniaturization Gadget and UberGunPowderXtreem /ugpx/ fallacy). I'll look for a link to it, and the Gyrojet/RA posts, in the morning
You don't need Skill Plexus since Competence Bonuses do not stack.
It's still broken, but then, the Heir occupation requires GM permission to use anyway. (Same with all the occupations in d20 Future actually).
Quick note on the Infinite Wealth Loop.
You don't need Skill Plexus since Competence Bonuses do not stack.
It's still broken, but then, the Heir occupation requires GM permission to use anyway. (Same with all the occupations in d20 Future actually).
and the windfall feat plexus cybertaker heir occupation will just be a loop since its going to drop you back down to 10
I had a though though, instead of upping damages on more powerful weapons, what about increasing their ability to bypass DR? Especially in weapons specifically designed to penetrate armor. Of course it can be argued that more damage does that too. I had played around with some tables, but scrapped it because it would add more math than necessary. (I had tables that dealt with different materials vs different types of damage like energy, sabot rounds ect.) Some of my players like to spent lots of time number crunching stuff. I encourage this allot, especially if it is for other technology besides weapons.
On a side note, in the next campaign a friend is running, I plan to use a Shotgun as my primary weapon. The Tech level of the game is 7. I have a number of practical reasons for doing this, but also I want prove to some of my other players that skill and tactics can be just as deadly. Besides, beating some plasma rifle toting aliens with a 300 year old gun is hysterical. I plan to use mostly standard rounds. With None-lethal and the occasional HE type for those pesky NPCs who don't go down easy. At least on player looked at me with confusion and asked why, to this my GM said "Shotguns don't put holes in the hull!".
Shotguns don't put holes in their bodyarmor either
... especially bodyarmor made of Vanadium rather than low tech weak stuff like ceramics & kevlar & steel. Given vanadium has 3x the hardness of steel, what does that do to the EquipBonus of oldschool platemail made of vanadium? Why would guys n the future wear fullplate? Cause white 30hardness panels with black 15harness joints means Stormtrooper suits would yeild 25Hardness average vs the weak personal weapons in the future.
Or, for the weak & lazy stormtroopers, you make fullplate out of Duraplast so it has all the protection at just half the weight and can be called Medium armor. This again shows the one way technology appplication in the book, armor can get lighter but not better: You can make Vanadium Fullplate with 1/3 the thickness but all the protection of Steel, but you cant make it as thick as steel for 3x the protection. Same as grenades can get smaller but cant get more powerfull standard size. Its just AGB gimp to cap damage.
Speaking of Future brokeness,
they have different Hardness numbers for materials in different sections of the book: Mecha vanadium is not the same as Ship Vanadium.
[i]
Speaking of Future brokeness,
they have different Hardness numbers for materials in different sections of the book: Mecha vanadium is not the same as Ship Vanadium.
Yeah....made me go "hmmmmm"
I could see how it might help with game balance. But a explanation in the books, even a lame one would make it less silly.
Also lighter is still better I think. If your really keeping score on how much stuff you characters are carrying for the purpose of encumbrance, and lighter usually means lower armor check penalties ect. True this probably wont mean much to Strong characters, but my space scout has a Strength of 9 and carries a lot of crap, so I would love lighter Armor!
Would you like the light armor that defeats 40% of the energy of the 9mm being shot at you by the badguys with pistols,
or
would you like the not light StormySuit that is impervious to the small arms the bad guys in this encounter carry?
That is the core of the problem: RAW wont let a guy totally encapsulated in Vanadium (hardness30) actually be impervious to 9mm pistols. Even with a space rated enviroment armor, for some reason if they just roll a natural20 the bullet slips thru some opening in your space suit.
The variable hardness of armor materials doesnt help for game balance.
Consider the steel armors of Cruisers vs Battleships. They didnt use a different material to make battleships harder to kill, they used the same material but instead of a couple inches of RHA they used a foot of it. Even a 5" AP shell hitting a Iowa Battleship turret didnt do any real damage: How much hardness does 17" thick steel armor grant?
Now look at the d20Future space Battleship armor vs the Scout armor hardness.
It boggles the mind that armor thickness doesnt play into how well it protects. The game says any ship with Vanadium armor has 30Hardness regardless if it is a wafer thin foil on the scout or if it is the foot thick slabs on the the battleship.
Great, then we can put the .001" thick vanadium foil on top of my flannel shirt to make it 30hardness too.
Lighter armor doesnt make it better armor,
cause then the "best" armored folks would be runniing around naked
Lighter is not always better.
As I stated in my example my scout has a low strength score and I worry about encumbrance with all the survival gear I carry.
Would you like the light armor that defeats 40% of the energy of the 9mm being shot at you by the badguys with pistols,
or
would you like the not light StormySuit that is impervious to the small arms the bad guys in this encounter carry?
I tend to take full advantage of the cover rules in the game. Besides, what fun would it be to be imperious to most weapons short of a Tank cannon? I think it is good that Armor provides a DR modifier, but seriously, who would actually let players have a DR25 Body armor?
That is the core of the problem: RAW wont let a guy totally encapsulated in Vanadium (hardness30) actually be impervious to 9mm pistols. Even with a space rated enviroment armor, for some reason if they just roll a natural20 the bullet slips thru some opening in your space suit.
I have seen in argued that the bullet does not necessarily go through the armor, it's the kinetic damage from the impact that was not fully absorbed. how that translates to energy weapons in another story however.
The variable hardness of armor materials doesnt help for game balance.
Consider the steel armors of Cruisers vs Battleships. They didnt use a different material to make battleships harder to kill, they used the same material but instead of a couple inches of RHA they used a foot of it. Even a 5" AP shell hitting a Iowa Battleship turret didnt do any real damage: How much hardness does 17" thick steel armor grant?
Now look at the d20Future space Battleship armor vs the Scout armor hardness.
It boggles the mind that armor thickness doesnt play into how well it protects. The game says any ship with Vanadium armor has 30Hardness regardless if it is a wafer thin foil on the scout or if it is the foot thick slabs on the the battleship.
Great, then we can put the .001" thick vanadium foil on top of my flannel shirt to make it 30hardness too.
Lighter armor doesnt make it better armor,
cause then the "best" armored folks would be runniing around naked
Oh I agree that the thickness of armor should effect something. Many other games give armor its own health. And starship hull rules are kinda sketchy. Of course you could go with Vandium Subcutaneous armor out of the cybernetics section and go naked!
who would actually let players have a DR25 Body armor?
Obviously in a future game where weapons have advanced to do 30-40 per shot,
having Hardness25 or more body armor makes sense.
To justify gimping the numbers of future armor,
so the armor can match future weapon stats
that themselves have been AGB gimped to fit the gimped armor,
is bad logic.
It is far more reasonable to assume that advances in materials will yield better armors, that foster better weapon developement: Why would anyone need a 2d24 Frobaz Pistol? To punch thru the Hard25 NIJ-XIV vanadium bodyarmor folks wear in the future. Why would any manufacturer want to develope NIJ-XIV bodyarmor in the first place? Cause the military will happily buy armor that weighs the same as what the have now but makes their troops preactically unkillable.... first side to field bulletproof troops will win, unless the enemy can develope m40a1 10mm APX Caseless pulse rifles to redefine the term 'bullet' as used in 'bulletproof'.
Back in the day
I was issued a kevlar vest, standard stuff.
But between FunInTheSun-One and FitS-Two the military went thru upgrading its bodyarmor.... to meet the new threat ( the 'new threat' being the same old guns that have been in use for decades). The real 'new threat' was the bad press of our troops getting hurt, so they upped the standards for bodyarmor just to reduce casualties. If we found a cheap and easy manufacturing method for Vanadium sheet we certainly would use it ASAP to make our boys 'bulletproof' against the current enemy.... and then the enemy will upgrade their arsenal... then we will upgrade our armor... they upgrade arsenal again... we upgrade armor again.. they... you get the point.
Tanks use 76mm cannons to kill other tanks with 2-4" of armor.
Well, they used to.
They then used 105mm guns against tanks with 3-5" armor.
and now the (advanced material) DU 120mm sabot dart is used because tanks upgraded to advanced composite armors and ReactiveArmors that defeat HEAT (which also was a weapon advancement that is already countered by the Reactive armor advancement)
and all this back & forth improvement will grind to a halt in the future,
cause AGB requires advanced weapons to not be better than the weapons they replace
I have seen in argued that the bullet does not necessarily go through the armor, it's the kinetic damage from the impact that was not fully absorbed
Refer to the NIJ 44mm dent in their definition to Defeat a threat
What's the AGB? Well, that'd be the unarmored Smart hero standing behind the vanadium encased Tough hero. Why shoot the tank when you can shoot the soft-body behind the tank? So, in the interests of making so that everyone in the party can actually be on the field of battle, AGB steps in and tones down the power of the weapons.
On another note. What happens to the balance of d20 Future if you just look at the personnel equipment chapter sans the size reducing gadgets? How does that stack up? Is it just the size reducing gadgets that fraks up the equation?
Okay, so we know that the weapons and armor are AGBed into weakness.
What's the AGB? Well, that'd be the unarmored Smart hero standing behind the vanadium encased Tough hero. Why shoot the tank when you can shoot the soft-body behind the tank? So, in the interests of making so that everyone in the party can actually be on the field of battle, AGB steps in and tones down the power of the weapons.
On another note. What happens to the balance of d20 Future if you just look at the personnel equipment chapter sans the size reducing gadgets? How does that stack up? Is it just the size reducing gadgets that fraks up the equation?
I am complete agreement.:D
What's the AGB? Well, that'd be the unarmored Smart hero standing behind the vanadium encased Tough hero. Why shoot the tank when you can shoot the soft-body behind the tank? So, in the interests of making so that everyone in the party can actually be on the field of battle, AGB steps in and tones down the power of the weapons.
Where did the Tough hero get the armor proficiencies that the Smart hero cant?
Bonus Feats
At 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th level, the Tough hero gains a bonus feat. This feat must be selected from the following list, and the Tough hero must meet any prerequisites.
Alertness, Athletic, Brawl, Confident, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Brawl, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Feint, Knockout Punch, Power Attack, Streetfighting, Toughness, Vehicle Expert
If the Tough can have PL6 Def10 Hard15 vanadium vest with Med Armor Prof,
why isnt the Smart hero smart enough to armor up (2 feats exactly like Tough) for combat as well?
Who is wearing Vanadium Vests or Duraplast Stormysuits? Anyone that wants them.
Considering the bodyarmor to stop pistols costs about as much as the pistols they stop, affordability shouldnt be a limiting factor. Weight wise, Strongs and Cha's both have to follow the same encumberance and carrying rules. There is nothing mechanical that says Smarts have less armor than Str/Fast/Tough
... and in the situation you presented, it would have to be a dumb Smart to choose not to wear a vanadium Undercover Vest (Lt Armor) for Def6 Hard10
Consider this application of technology to just shields rather than all armor, for a moment:
How would you stat a StopSign a shield, compared to a 5mmRHA steel shield,
when folks are shooting AK47s?
We all know the Stopsign wont do squat to protect you vs the incoming 7.62,
and the steel will take 40-80% of the umph out of the slug (depending on angles).
So do we say the Stopsign gets the same stats and features of the steel shield, but just lighter?
What about the Wet Toilet Paper shield... same as steel too?
When we see high power projectiles that practically ignore the ToiletPaper and Stopsign shields, it is not a far stretch to say with technology we need to address Balistic AC vs Melee AC. A Stopsign is an ok shiled for melee, but is rates right up there with Toilet Paper against AK47s.... fortunately we have RHA steel (or Kevlar/polycarbonates)
shileds that are have superior balistic rating than the ToiletPaper/Stopsign shields.
Now use the same logic when we have access to Vanadium or Duraplast,
and we will see shields that will defeat 50BMG but only weigh 10lb.
When given the choice of using a Ceramic&Polycarb (NIJ-4) shield, or a Stopsign (NIJ-1), what reason is there to take the bullerstopper vs the ornamental one? And in a few years, why take the Vanadium (NIJ-6) shield rather than use a CardboardPizzaBox (NIJ-0)?
How do we stat the following shields.
PizzaBox / Stopsign / D&DWood / D&DMetal / (RHA-Kev-Cer)Modern / Vandiaum
Lets not stat cardboard as good as steel,
and lets not stat steel as good as Vanadium
Let's you take four feats, right? if that wasn't cheap enough already, one of those feats can be cybertaker.
The other three can be windfall: w00t, infinite wealth. With d20 Future Tech, the gadgets don't max out, so with infinite money you can do infinite damage and have infinite AC.
EDIT: Also (weirdly) I just realised that this can be used for non-windfall uses. Like, a billion feat plexus's that give you all the feats.
"spiked bastard dwarven sword-chucks-guisarme-glaive-urgrosh? yeah. Yeah, I'm proficient... and focused. Specialised, in fact. Not like it matters, because I have 2d10+14298750985143982 HP thanks to toughness feats"
EDIT: very ninja'd. yikes.
I'd say the most glaring flaw that I've found is with the feat plexus.
Let's you take four feats, right? if that wasn't cheap enough already, one of those feats can be cybertaker.
The other three can be windfall: w00t, infinite wealth. With d20 Future Tech, the gadgets don't max out, so with infinite money you can do infinite damage and have infinite AC.
EDIT: Also (weirdly) I just realised that this can be used for non-windfall uses. Like, a billion feat plexus's that give you all the feats.
"spiked bastard dwarven sword-chucks-guisarme-glaive-urgrosh? yeah. Yeah, I'm proficient... and focused. Specialised, in fact. Not like it matters, because I have 2d10+14298750985143982 HP thanks to toughness feats"
EDIT: very ninja'd. yikes.
i suggest you read the following :Infinite wealth cheat and yet another wealth thread but WITH math!