Hell we could make this a Thread based project.
Martial Artist is broken in that, if the player happens to pick up Personal Firearms Proficiency, it can out-shoot any of the shooty advanced classes. Quick fix is to nerf the BAB to 3/4's and buff an ability or two (or maybe grant more skillpoints or something). Personally, though, I prefer split BAB's.
- The 3hr slap fight that happens with the non-accumulating NonLethal Unarmed damage.
- Underused / unused skill Knowledge Tactics.
- Underused Will Save.
- Best marksman is a Strong/MA rather than a 'gunbunny' class.
- LeatherJackets deflect tankrounds, best material modern armor protects as well as museum D&D armor
- Special Ammo types dont scale with caliber... same explosive damage from a 55gr slug as 240gr, all AP ammo is +2 meaning AP 9mm penetrates the same thickness armor as AP50bmg
- Explosives (demolitions) nerf
Little to no variation in firearms except PDCs.
Too small of a range of damages among calibers. There is no reason a 9mm, .45, and a .357 magnum should be exactly the same.
Autofire is worthless.
Dont forget its cousin:
When you are engaged by Autofire, all your armor is worthless
Dont forget its cousin:
When you are engaged by Autofire, all your armor is worthless
In higher levels its not like you would really need it anyway against a static DC 15 save...
Then we Focus fire down the bigger stuff Double tap works well in our experience.
I do agree that pistol damage could be more varied. We just house rule it a bit.:D
The Smart/Charismatic characters are too weak in combat: even though they have excellent supporting skills, their vulnerability tends to outweigh the benefits they can provide.
Not necessarilly broken:
The DC 15 Fortitude save for massive damage appears to be a bit weak. However, the penalty for failing this save is very serious, which means that most players don't trivialize it even if they have good odds at passing.
-DF
Problems:
- The 3hr slap fight that happens with the non-accumulating NonLethal Unarmed damage.
- Underused / unused skill Knowledge Tactics.
- Underused Will Save.
- Best marksman is a Strong/MA rather than a 'gunbunny' class.
Sadly, non-lethal combat is essentially pointless without the kind of investement that could be put to better (or: more effcient) use with the lethal option instead. The good thing about the current implementation is that it's non-exploitable: it's is generally equally hard to knock out a character with lethal damage as it is to take him down with massive damage. That way you don't have heroes "non-lethal" attacking enemies and the killing them.
I feel knowledge skills in general don't have a good frame of reference for use. I guess Knowledge (tactics) sticks out in particular since it's a prerequisite for a popular Advanced class.
Strong/Martial Artists are the best attackers, and Fast/Martial Artist is the best defensive option. I'd say it would be an improvement to have more of the current combat classes use the +1/level BAB progression and shift the +1/2 level BAB classes to +3/4 level BAB.
The Fast Hero's starting defense bonus is too high in in my opinion.
Agreed. Suggested fix is to use the following progression instead:
2
3
3
4
5
5
6
7
7
8
- It's just the advanced classes' "good" defense +1, as opposed to the basic classes' "not-horrendous" progression +2.
The Smart/Charismatic characters are too weak in combat: even though they have excellent supporting skills, their vulnerability tends to outweigh the benefits they can provide.
One could argue that it's just the intention of the game. Not everyone - not even all heroes - happens to be good at combat. The Charismatic/Smart Hero classes are for people who want to go hard-over charismatic/smart, just like the Strong Hero class is for people who want to go hard-over Hulk Smash and tough hero is for guys who want to eat grenades for breakfast.
Just my thoughts.
One could argue that it's just the intention of the game. Not everyone - not even all heroes - happens to be good at combat. The Charismatic/Smart Hero classes are for people who want to go hard-over charismatic/smart, just like the Strong Hero class is for people who want to go hard-over Hulk Smash and tough hero is for guys who want to eat grenades for breakfast.
Just my thoughts.
I don't know. The Smart Hero class is sees some use in my campaigns, but the Charismatic Hero is never used at all. Even in NPC builds the class is surprisingly weak: the players know to target support characters, and their inherent fragility means this quickly pays off. That's a kind of weakness the players don't want on their own team.
Add to this the fact that the skill selection these classes provide can easily be covered by selecting appropriate occupations, and this means a lot of their appeal drops away.
Of course, a non-combat heavy campaign shouldn't see these problems. It's just that I do run a combat heavy campaign, and my players are almost exclusively Strong, Fast, Tough and Dedicated, and those taking advanced classes tend towards Soldiers and Gunslingers.
Personaly, I feel that the group as a whole is beginning to feel the limitations of the talents available within those select classes. Any given talent in use is likely also taken by one or two other PCs, which kinda makes it hard to make a "unique" character. Increasing the appeal of the Smart/Charismatic classes (and their advanced variants...) would buy some time...
-DF
-DF
I tried using the death and dying rules from Monte Cook's World of Darkness, but that was a big pain the arse.
And as for guns, I'm starting to think about using the more generic firearms stats from either Call of Cthulhu d20 or Monte Cook's World of Darkness, not sure which or even if I am gonna do so.
And how does the Martial Artist having better BAB and Saves make it better than the Gunslinger or other "shooty" classes, wouldn't all the class feature pertaining to firearms make up for it?
Problems:
- Underused Will Save.
There just aren't enough mind control spells in modern society
.Maybe modern needs an overhall completly. ala the "Spirit" of Pathfinder.
Just some thoughts.
Master Vega Wrote
Personally, though, I prefer split BAB's.
I like these also.
My idea was something broken down like this.
Class Ranged BAB Melee BAB
Fast Good Average
Tough Average Average
Strong Good Average
Smart Average Poor
Dedicated Average Average
Charismatic Average Poor
Shold read.
Class Ranged BAB Melee BAB
Strong Average Good
_______
Anyway have any other sugjested fixes for the above problem. Or anyother problems in general?
@ Yar - Why's the poor tough hero getting no boost to either BAB type?
@ DF - I don't mean for this to come across as mocking, but you're complaining that two mostly non-combat classes aren't being picked in a combat-focused campaign. I mostly run/play in balanced campaigns, so we really don't run into this problem in our group. *shrugs*
I know - it's just that both the Smart and Charismatic classes both have excellent support abilities (Plan, Coordinate) that I don't really get to see come into play.
-DF
@ Yar - Why's the poor tough hero getting no boost to either BAB type?
Perhaps it would make more sense to have the strong Hero have Good melee BAB and Poor ranged BAB, and the Fast Hero vice versa. Then the Tough and Dedicated classes bridge the gap with straight Average.
-DF
Problems:
- Underused Will Save.
Perhaps the modern game setting should inlcude a Fear mechanic.
Getting shot at is generally a frightening experience, but as it stands its up to just the player to act scared. There's nothing stopping each and every player to trust his character's fate to defense and hp and remain in the open, getting shot and shooting back.
I'm not suggesting that all player characters should run around like scared little girls all the time: they're supposed to get to act heroic. But they're also free to meta-game. We all know a punk with a .32 can't kill their 100+ hp character with a single shot, and as it stands it's up to the player to enforce "realism" through acting cautiously. If the player walks up to the punk and starts pushing him around, safe in the knowledge that he's gonna survive anything the NPC can throw at him, who's to say hi cant'?
So, yeah. More Will saves!
-DF
Perhaps it would make more sense to have the strong Hero have Good melee BAB and Poor ranged BAB, and the Fast Hero vice versa. Then the Tough and Dedicated classes bridge the gap with straight Average.
-DF
Possible, but I dunno. The problem with that is that you end up shoehorning Fast Hero into being a ranged combatant, and the Strong Hero into being Mongo Smash((C) backstabbist), and that's it. No more fast/strong streetfighters, or strong/soldiers.
As for the Charismatic/Smart not being used issue, it kinda comes with the territory (that being combat-heavy campaigns). In combat-focused games, Smart/Charismatic work better as dips for soldier types than as actual core concepts. Sarge should probably be strong2/Charismatic2(or maybe 3)/Soldier4-ish. He sacrifices some combat effectiveness to make his group more effective (via bonuses). He should also make good use of cover and such.
If your players don't immediately hate GMPC's, this might be a good character to introduce. Once you get passed Sarge being stereotypically bossy, you realize he's not all that obtrusive in combat. Because he's too busy giving stacking bonuses from tac' aid and Coordinate (or Inspiration if he took three levels instead of just two), he can't really steal the show. He can only make the PC's look better. Because he's got decent combat ability, the players don't have to babysit him.
Just a thought. Further discussion of the last point should probably be moved to PM. >_>
@ Yar - Why's the poor tough hero getting no boost to either BAB type?
Well i was thinking that they may be average in both Ranged and Melee. Just dident seem right to put them on par with the strong hero in terms of Ass kicking. These guys are the tankey types And not so much hurty types. Thats just my reasoning. I guess a Good BAB would be ok. Seeing as how the strongs talents would be a mitigating factor in their ass kicking potential.
What did you have in mind?
Well i was thinking that they may be average in both Ranged and Melee. Just dident seem right to put them on par with the strong hero in terms of Ass kicking. These guys are the tankey types And not so much hurty types. Thats just my reasoning. I guess a Good BAB would be ok. Seeing as how the strongs talents would be a mitigating factor in their ass kicking potential.
What did you have in mind?
You have a point there, however if you're going to give Tough Hero another disadvantage vs. Fast/Strong, you're going to need to buff something else up. Tough kinda needs love as-is, so you might be able to change a couple of things (possible boost HD size by 1, boost defense bonus to the good advanced class progression...)
Why does my cat burgler have to spend so much time at the range with the sniper?
(btw, MONGO smash... no big deal)
I find it sad that the theif class has to be a combatant.
Why does my cat burgler have to spend so much time at the range with the sniper?
To be fair, he doesn't have to be. He could decide not to take PFP, not to carry a gun, and/or not to shoot at all.
Also, a footpad is probably a combination of Fast/Smart (dedicated, or charismatic), which nets him the skills, skillpoints, and talents to do what he needs to do as a cat burglar.
Rewrite the base classes as 20 level classes with feats and talents expanded to provide enough material for the life of the character. The idea of advanced classes and prestige classes changed to Archetypes that are applied over the class like the 4e idea of Paragon Paths. Archetypes don't provide BAB, Saves, HD, Skills etc. Archetypes are campaign specific and might provide special abilities in one game, psionic powers in another or super powers in still another. Archetypes only have to be balanced against other Archetypes within one campagin setting. (this makes the system more easily portable between games)
Change to a vitality system and eliminate massive damage rules altogether (already done in my game) Vitality allows for a much better cinematic experience and simply works in a game with no healing magic. Characters are down for no more than a day after near death experiences. They can continue on even after taking some Wound damage with a short rest, so long as they have 1 point left.
In D20 there are two states: In combat and not in combat. Each character should have stuff to do in both states. In the movies even gunfighters can provide moral support or watch the back for the noncombatants while they do smart hero stuff. This could have a statistical effect.
Characters develop signature gear as they level. These items become highly specialized and very familiar to the characters providing bonuses and abilities that don't function in any other character's hands. This allows a bit higher power scale without introducing the glut of "magic items" in D&D. Capturing other character's signature items doens't add to the arsenal, but can provide other social benefits in the form of trophies.
Eliminate opposed rolls for smoothness of gameplay. In Pathfinder they assume the defender has a roll of 15, which makes the effects harder to pull off. I might change that to 13, but its a good idea in principle.
I agree with above suggestions like separating ranged and melee BABs.
Lets work on this together. Even if WotC swoops in and publishes our work we'll be happier with it than we are now. And none of us are likely to actually flesh out a complete revised edition on our own.
Or, you could just realize that the Strong hero was designed to be a primary offense combatant and give him some ranged love. And give the Fast hero, designed to be a primary defense combatant some extra defense love.
Of course, I'm fine with d20 Modern as is. Well, I might make some of the Will save inducing effects a little easier to get, if only to have morale based combat important.
Also, in my last d20 Modern game we didn't have a single Strong, Tough, or Fast hero. Every single player, and we created the character independent of each other, created Smart, Dedicated, or Charismatic heroes. And we played a rather combat heavy game. We just used cover to our advantage. Heck, if I remember correctly of the first four characters, three were Charismatic Heroes.
Eliminate opposed rolls for smoothness of gameplay. In Pathfinder they assume the defender has a roll of 15, which makes the effects harder to pull off. I might change that to 13, but its a good idea in principle.
All due respect to both you and Paizo, I think this is a very bad idea because it doesn't scale. At higher levels, a DC 15 is almost impossible to fail. If you want people to never fail these tests, then that's fine, but if you want to retain a challenge, then the opposed test solves that problem, but you could also have the DC based on level/HD, so say 10 + level, or even 15 + level (depending on how tough you want it to be). Not taking level-scaling into account makes for really frustrating high-level games.
Just my two cents. Take it or leave it, of course.
I'm not a big fan of having separate Base Attack Bonuses. That kind of detracts from the concept of it being a "Base" for the attack bonuses. Instead, just give certain classes a bonus on ranged or melee attacks. Give the Strong Hero a bonus on Melee attacks, give the Fast hero a bonus on Ranged Attacks if that's what you want.
Well we shall do away with such Antiquated ideas As -Base- attack bonus in the new D20 modern Distopian future. It just plane makes more sense and lends more flavor to the classes.
I think I'll adopt this one, though I'll likely apply it only if there's aclear "attacker" and "defender".
-DF
All due respect to both you and Paizo, I think this is a very bad idea because it doesn't scale. At higher levels, a DC 15 is almost impossible to fail. If you want people to never fail these tests, then that's fine, but if you want to retain a challenge, then the opposed test solves that problem, but you could also have the DC based on level/HD, so say 10 + level, or even 15 + level (depending on how tough you want it to be). Not taking level-scaling into account makes for really frustrating high-level games.
Just my two cents. Take it or leave it, of course.
I don't think you have read pathfinder. The ROLL is assumed to be 15, not the total. You take your BAB, add your strength and then add 15 for your Combat Defense. Its the same as the opposed roll idea, except the defender is assumed to have rolled 15.
. Dance.Honestly, I can't say I expected much from a game that's entire selling point is "its not 4th edition."
Anyway, back on-topic...
Anyway, back on-topic...
Okay, joke's over.
A much as i want to reply to Ragitsu, When i do my topics tend to get derailed. Anyway Lots of people mentioned guns. Any sugjestions?
While not too badly "broken", the MW by brand name (All Glocks) is hinky.
But the 50BMG getting 2d12 is a problem.
If one looks at
2d8 Carbines (223, 30-30, AK)
2d10 Rifles ( 270, 7mm, 300 class)
2d12 MagRifle (375, 416, 500)
that leaves the big jump in damage die to the big jump in power 2d20 50BMG.
RAW gave the 50BMG the 2d12 slot above 308 getting 2d10,
which makes the entire class of MagRifle(375,460) cease to exist.
Damage by Caliber
2d3: .25 ACP
2d4: .22 LR, 5.45x25mm, .32 ACP, 3.4mm flechette
2d4+1: .38 S&W, .380 ACP, 9x18mm PM, .38 Long Colt, 9x19mm (subsonic loading), .38 Special, .22 WMR, 9x18mm PMM, 5.7x28mm FN, 4.6mm HK, 7.62x25mm Tokarev
2d6: .38 Super, 9x19mm, .22 Hornet, .17 Remington, .338 nova, 4.35mm flechette
2d6+1: .357 SIG, .357 Magnum, 10mm Auto, .41 AE, .45 ACP, .45 Long Colt, .30 Carbine/7.62x33mm, 7.62x25mm Tokarev (Czech loading), .300 Whisper (subsonic loading)
2d8: .45 Long Colt +p, .44 Magnum, .454 Casull, .50 AE, .440 CorBon, .50 Alexander, .458 Socom, 5.45x39mm/.21 Russian, 5.8x42mm Chinese, 20ga, .223 Rem/5.56x45mm NATO, .44 AutoMag, .300 Whisper, 4.7mm caseless, 12mm, 10.7mm
2d8+1: 7.62x39mm M43/.30 Russian, .30-30, .243 Win, 6.8mm SPC, 7.92x33mm Kurz, .510 Whisper (subsonic loading), 14mm caseless
2d8+d6: .803 gyro
2d10: .270 Win, .308 Win, .30-06, 7.62x54mm, 7.92x57mm Mauser, .300 Win Mag, 12ga, .45-70 Gov't, .500 magnum, 8mm caseless
2d10+1: .444 Marlin, .450 Marlin Magnum, .45-70 +p, 12 ga 3" Magnum
2d12: .338 Lapua, .375 H&H Magnum, 10ga, 12ga 3-1/2" Magnum, .510 Whisper
2d12+1: .458 Win Mag, .505 Gibbs, .404 Jeffreys, .600 Nitro Express, .666 magnum
2d12+2: 8ga
2d12+3: .700 Nitro Express
2d12+4: .800 Nitro Express
2d20: 12.7x109mm Soviet, .50 BMG/12.7x99mm
2d20+2: 22.4mm
2d20+4: 12mm Ramjet
2d4: .22 LR, 5.45x25mm, .32 ACP, 3.4mm flechette
2d4+1: .38 S&W, .380 ACP, 9x18mm PM, .38 Long Colt, 9x19mm (subsonic loading), .38 Special, .22 WMR, 9x18mm PMM, 5.7x28mm FN, 4.6mm HK, 7.62x25mm Tokarev
2d6: .38 Super, 9x19mm, .22 Hornet, .17 Remington, .338 nova, 4.35mm flechette
2d6+1: .357 SIG, .357 Magnum, 10mm Auto, .41 AE, .45 ACP, .45 Long Colt, .30 Carbine/7.62x33mm, 7.62x25mm Tokarev (Czech loading), .300 Whisper (subsonic loading)
2d8: .45 Long Colt +p, .44 Magnum, .454 Casull, .50 AE, .440 CorBon, .50 Alexander, .458 Socom, 5.45x39mm/.21 Russian, 5.8x42mm Chinese, 20ga, .223 Rem/5.56x45mm NATO, .44 AutoMag, .300 Whisper, 4.7mm caseless, 12mm, 10.7mm
2d8+1: 7.62x39mm M43/.30 Russian, .30-30, .243 Win, 6.8mm SPC, 7.92x33mm Kurz, .510 Whisper (subsonic loading), 14mm caseless
2d8+d6: .803 gyro
2d10: .270 Win, .308 Win, .30-06, 7.62x54mm, 7.92x57mm Mauser, .300 Win Mag, 12ga, .45-70 Gov't, .500 magnum, 8mm caseless
2d10+1: .444 Marlin, .450 Marlin Magnum, .45-70 +p, 12 ga 3" Magnum
2d12: .338 Lapua, .375 H&H Magnum, 10ga, 12ga 3-1/2" Magnum, .510 Whisper
2d12+1: .458 Win Mag, .505 Gibbs, .404 Jeffreys, .600 Nitro Express, .666 magnum
2d12+2: 8ga
2d12+3: .700 Nitro Express
2d12+4: .800 Nitro Express
2d20: 12.7x109mm Soviet, .50 BMG/12.7x99mm
2d20+2: 22.4mm
2d20+4: 12mm Ramjet
I can see 50BMG critting allot.
Guns are wonky Sometimes you ca get sniped inthe head and live andother times you can get shot in the foo and die. Chaotic indeed to translate into a game system.
Guns are wonky Sometimes you ca get sniped inthe head and live andother times you can get shot in the foo and die. Chaotic indeed to translate into a game system.
Thats why we use dice for damage. :P
As for the strong hero having a high BAB compared to the tough and fast, it's because strong is offensive based and the other two are defensive based.
Instead of split attack bonuses, or a specific bonus to one attack type or the other based on class, how about the player decides on creation to get a flat bonus to one or the other? That, and the fact that the character will likely have a high stat in the one relevent to their character should fix some problems.
Like call Of cthulhu style? I dunno that kinda takes some flavor away from some of the classes and maks others Unatractive.
Wasent there a game somplace that had Like a "Melee" "Ranged" And "Unarmed" Skill somewhere? That might be doable. I kinda dont like the idea but it might be interesting. If you suck at attacks its cause its a cross class.
As for the strong hero having a high BAB compared to the tough and fast, it's because strong is offensive based and the other two are defensive based.
I Whole heartedly agree.
As for d20-based games that use it, I believe BESM d20 has a system set up for it. But to implement it into Modern you might want to have a separate pool of "combat skill points" since all the combat classes get crap for regular skill points.
But to implement it into Modern you might want to have a separate pool of "combat skill points" since all the combat classes get crap for regular skill points.
May as well just keep attack bonuses than :P
I agree that having two as the minimum damage for every caliber is a little too broad!
But that is less of a problem than it apears on the surface.
Consider the actuall odds of doing only 2 or 3 damage for these two guns:
Low Caliber Pistol 2d4, 2 Damage 6.25%, 3 or less 18.75%
AMR/Portocanon 2d20, 2 damage 0.25%, 3 or less 0.75%
To say you did the bottom 6% of damage, that is 2dmg for the pistol but 7dmg for the 2d20.
All guns having the 2dX plan leads to the big boys very rarely actually getting just 2, compared to the 2d4 & 2d6 guns.
As for the 2d60 120Abrams, you are 98.75% likely to do 11dmg or more, and just 0.028% likely to do 2dmg
To visualize it,
if a 2d4 shot does 2dmg (6%), and that is just a 5mm deep scratch,
the 2d60 shot that does 2dmg (0.03%) would have to be 1/200th as deep, a 0.025mm deep scratch.... the 5mm deep(6%) tankshell scratch would do upto 22dmg(6%)
In the big picture
consider if damage was rolled as a percentile with the 2dX as tabled damage, and you rolled 6%:
For a 2d4 gun your 6% roll does 2dmg,
for a 2d60 tankgun your 6% roll does 22dmg ... even if you rolled a 1% thats still 9dmg
Quite a few games actually leave combat in the realm of skills, Legend of the Five Rings and all other games that use AEG's Roll and Keep system, all of White Wolf's games, Fuzion, and Call of Cthulhu (the original, not the d20 version) are just a couple I can think of off the top of my head.
As for d20-based games that use it, I believe BESM d20 has a system set up for it. But to implement it into Modern you might want to have a separate pool of "combat skill points" since all the combat classes get crap for regular skill points.
Anyone remember Gary Gygax's Dangerous Journeys? It was also totally skill based game and a very cool Egyptian themed setting to boot. I wonder if it would be more legitimate to rip off... uh, I mean sample rule mechanics from that game (Similar DNA and all).
Anyone remember Gary Gygax's Dangerous Journeys? It was also totally skill based game and a very cool Egyptian themed setting to boot. I wonder if it would be more legitimate to rip off... uh, I mean sample rule mechanics from that game (Similar DNA and all).
Only thing i remember about dangerous journies was a question about necropolis i sent go Gary a couple years back. It was cool of him to reply to the e-mail himself.
But seriously if we were going to implament a skill based Combat system. We could bump the skill multiples up by one. to reflect the "Skill points" they were Auto spending on BAB. That way people could have strong heroes that needent necessarily be built towards kicking people asses. I could see a farm worker not being well trained in combat. Do thay have a strong back? Sure. can they gun down a platoon? Probably not.
I made a mechanic that ended up hunting vampires. It dident make sense for him to be better at killing vampires as the Shadow Slayer in the groups. But with his handy Steak thrower Shotgin. He pwned more vamp face over all.
Anyway just some more thoughts.
In the big picture
consider if damage was rolled as a percentile with the 2dX as tabled damage, and you rolled 6%:
For a 2d4 gun your 6% roll does 2dmg,
for a 2d60 tankgun your 6% roll does 22dmg ... even if you rolled a 1% thats still 9dmg
There is increasingly less a chance the caliber will get a minimum of two damage, yes, but it does still exist. I'd just feel better if my higher pistol calibers and rifle rounds get a better minimum damage.
Personally, I'm okay with occasionally rolling very low on damage dice. Sometimes, your shots only graze or don't hit anything vital or what have you. It's part of the game. I'd like to integrate the hit and damage rolling, mind you, so that if you roll better your do better damage (and if you barely "hit," you do relatively little damage), but d20 doesn't really afford that opportunity without getting really arcane with the calculations.
from 1d6 for lower cals like .22 all the way to 10d6 for tank guns or something.
Pleae dont bombard me with Grain waits and muzze velocities. I was jut throwing out numbers.
I could argue that these "grazed" shots could depend on the receiving end's Hardness/DR, total HP and possibly current HP, but I won't.
I think you could argue that, yes. Arguably, damage rolls, hit points, and armour/protective equipment are all the same thing.
In real life, a reasonably competent shooter can pump out a shot per second and expect to get half to three-quarters of them into the space of a man's chest inside a reasonable distance (5 yards with pistol, 10 yards with rifle).
Aiming for a couple of seconds also increases accuracy measurably. This is why they, you know, put sights on guns.
In d20 ... one shot every six seconds, and aiming does nothing for you? And you need to take a feat just to not be crap at it? And you need to take another feat to shoot twice in that six seconds at a penalty?
Let's see ... snipers and big game hunters. My favourite topics.
Your big game hunter is stalking an elephant. The gun he is carrying does 2d12 damage. That's an average of 13 points. The elephant has 104 hit points. That's eight times the average damage of the gun. The elephant also has CON of greater than 13 (taking off the D&D stats for elephants, btw) so there's usually no joy with Massive Damage rolls.
So he draws a bead ... and shoots. And does 13 damage. Which the elephant probably absorbs like the proverbial pea-shooter against a tank. Elephant guns of that era were single-shot weapons, so unless the elephant failed a Massive Damage check (unlikely) then the hunter was faced with a very upset elephant.
I've had people try to tell me that natural 20s count here. My opinion of that is unprintable, but along the lines that any hunter who depends on natural 20s deserves to be stomped to death.
Second example: snipers.
It is the Great War. Our sniper has a good view of the trenches, through which enemy officers are being escorted. He picks the one with the most scrambled-egg on his shoulders, and puts a 7.62mm round through his chest. Score one for the good guys.
In theory.
What actually happens is that he does 2d10 damage to him, which averages to 11 damage. Any sort of high ranking officer probably has a few levels even in NPC classes, such as Aristocrat. So our sniper has to hope that his target has less than 11 hp, or he's likely to merely get up, dust himself off, and wander off calling for an artillery strike on that pesky sniper.
In short, the sniper, while a little more accurate than your common oik in uniform, has no more chance to actually kill his target for all the fancy scopes and aiming in Christendom.
Oh, and I loathe specialty feats (or worse: prestige classes) that allow one to bypass these rules limitations. You have to learn to shoot someone in the head in a way that is actually lethal? What sort of idiocy is that?
Autofire is a joke. Even if you fail the save, you only get hit by one bullet. Even if you're the only one in the area. Even if you're tied to a post. Nine bullets, wasted.
To put not too fine a point on it, you know the gun rules are broken when the best strategy for dealing with a gunman sixty feet away is to run up and hit him before he can shoot you.
Use of guns in melee combat - automatically gives your opponent a free attack on you. You point your gun at him and say "Hands up, I got you covered!" and he beats you in initiative and disarms you before you have a chance to pull the trigger. And even if you keep the gun, each time you try to shoot him, not only can he parry the gun, but he can get a free attack on you just for trying.
You can be surrounded by six men with guns all pointed at you. The second guy to the left decides to shoot you. You instantly know this, and get a free attack on him. Before he shoots you.
I have other issues, but those are the biggest ones.
I've had people try to tell me that natural 20s count here. My opinion of that is unprintable, but along the lines that any hunter who depends on natural 20s deserves to be stomped to death.
abso-frickin-lutely
Any plan that requires a Crit is a bad plan.
Autofire is a joke. Even if you fail the save, you only get hit by one bullet. Even if you're the only one in the area. Even if you're tied to a post. Nine bullets, wasted.
Dont forget that the heavier armor you wear, the worse your MaxDex is, so you can end up with a worse Ref save against getting shot by wearing heavy heavy armor that makes you bulletproof.
Use of guns in melee combat - automatically gives your opponent a free attack on you
[indent]
From Armoiur Thread
[INDENT]
Interesting scenario
Monster inside spell check proof furniture readies action to jump out on approaching man with gun when he opens the door...
Man with gun readies an action to shoot anything that jumps out of said spell check proof furniture.
Man with gun opens door and ……..who does what first???
Man triggers monsters action with gun opening the door so it jumps out, but man with guns action is triggered by monsters triggered action.
The actions would go like this:
- Man opens door.
- Thing jumps out to attack.
- Moving triggers attack of the man. Resolve man's attack.
- Thing then completes its move and attack.[/INDENT]
------------------
Man opens door on his turn
Cat uses Readied action to attack anything opening the door, interutping Mans turn
Man interrupts his own turn with his readied action to shoot anything jumping out
Cat gets to precede the interrupt of the interrupt of the cat, with an AoO on the gun in melee combat guy... seems the guy should have readied a 5'Stepback ALONG WITH the shot
[/indent]
Thats why one shouldnt interupt with an interuptable action ;)
Guns are just plain broken.
No, they're unrealistic. There's a difference. If you want a more realistic game, I recommend not playing d20M, to be honest.
Dont forget that the heavier armor you wear, the worse your MaxDex is, so you can end up with a worse Ref save against getting shot by wearing heavy heavy armor that makes you bulletproof.
When would you ever make a Reflex save against being shot? I believe that's resolved by an attack roll.
When would you ever make a Reflex save against being shot? I believe that's resolved by an attack roll
How do YOU resolve Autofire attacks?
He was talking about Autofire, as was I
No, they're unrealistic. There's a difference. If you want a more realistic game, I recommend not playing d20M, to be honest.
When would you ever make a Reflex save against being shot? I believe that's resolved by an attack roll.
Autofire is - IIRC - an attack roll of 15 or something, which prompts a reflex save 15 by the the target.
Thought: perhaps you could increase your attack roll target by 2 to increase the save DC by 1? That way autofire wouldn't always be useless... or would that be too powerful?
Ninja'd.
How do YOU resolve Autofire attacks?
He was talking about Autofire, as was I
Oh right. I always forget that rule.
I don't use firearms all that much in my game. My bad. Ignore me.
I'd go with reducung the AoE to increase the RefDC,
and add Armor(&shield) Equip Bonus to the roll
10x10 DC15
5x10 DC17
5x5 DC19
Most times folks would probably chose to saturate 1 square with 10 bullets to hit one guy,
Thats a DC19. However, to avoid getting hit by folks hosing your square with slugs, maybe if you wore some armor..... ;)
Guns are just plain broken.
In real life, a reasonably competent shooter can pump out a shot per second and expect to get half to three-quarters of them into the space of a man's chest inside a reasonable distance (5 yards with pistol, 10 yards with rifle).
Aiming for a couple of seconds also increases accuracy measurably. This is why they, you know, put sights on guns.
In d20 ... one shot every six seconds, and aiming does nothing for you? And you need to take a feat just to not be crap at it? And you need to take another feat to shoot twice in that six seconds at a penalty?
Okay. as for shooting fast, a character with a high BAB (IE, a competent shooter as opposed to a lv 1 fast food worker) can expect to get 2 or 3 attacks a turn (or 4 if they picked the few classes with full BAB). Add Double Tap, and you've doubled that to 6 shots a turn (or 8 with the full BAB).
The reason you shoot so slowly is because you are assumed to aim between each shot- if you can get away without it, your character has Double Tap. increased ROF for decreased accuracy per shot.
For sniping and target shooting, you can take Dead Aim and a scope. Take a little longer to aim (standard action for scope and full for dead aim, IIRC) and you get a serious boost to range and accuracy.
Autofire is a joke. Even if you fail the save, you only get hit by one bullet. Even if you're the only one in the area. Even if you're tied to a post. Nine bullets, wasted.
Yeah, I agree with you on this one. Autofire is totally pointless. I've had some luck with burst fire though, I can MAS out low level guys in one hit, and take on some powerful stuff in a few attacks. As for the nine wasted bullets, though? they're shooting at the other three or so guys in the autofire zone.
But the reflex save should probably be related to an attack roll somehow.
Dont forget that the heavier armor you wear, the worse your MaxDex is, so you can end up with a worse Ref save against getting shot by wearing heavy heavy armor that makes you bulletproof.
Max dex only applies to AC. Someone with a +4 dex modifier and +1 max dex still gets the full +4 to reflex saves, skills, etc. Just not AC.
they're far from perfect. they're not really within shouting distance of perfect. But the rules aren't really as bad as they are sometimes made out to be. Most things can be resolved by taking the right feats (representing actual training in what you are trying to do, as opposed to "I saw it in a movie once") or remembering that most trained soldiers and such probably aren't level one.
Autofire is still a joke, except for the helicopter mounted Gatling death gun from the Menace Manual. That thing is the brother, mother, father, and weird cousin from Newfoundland of Death rolled up into a convenient package.
PS I have nothing but respect to people from newfoundland, especially those who happen to be on the boards and reading this.
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If anyone is bored, here is some vintage Ack, circa mid 2007:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=DX0RLN8S
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If anyone is bored, here is some vintage Ack, circa mid 2007:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=DX0RLN8S
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Wow, someone saved that? I don't know whether to laugh or ... okay, I'm gonna laugh.
Seriously though.
I wasn't going to bring this up, but someone in another thread brought up Palladium, so I am gonna reference GURPS.
Instead of Range Increments for individual guns, you instead have a set penalty-per-range, and each weapon has an Accuracy score. Rifles have more Accuracy than pistols.
You can fire the instant your weapon is pointed in the correct direction; this means that someone with moderate skill is likely to hit a close target (within 5 yards) but unlikely, outside of a great roll, to hit a distant target.
You can aim, which takes one second. This adds the base Accuracy bonus of the weapon. Scopes add to Accuracy. Pistols have 1 to 2 points of Accuracy, while rifles have 4 or higher (for accurized weapons, etc). Thus, one second of aim will give a shooter a much better chance of hitting.
Aim can go on past one second; each extra second (up to three, total) adds +1 to the effective skill. So you can aim for several seconds and then shoot, and you're better off again than the snap-shooter.
(EDIT)
You can fire a semi-auto weapon up to three times per second. This will degrade accuracy, but not hugely. Or you can fire once per second, keeping your recoil penalty to a minimum. Or you can even fire once every two seconds, Aiming between shots, thus getting off three shots per six seconds, more accurately than a standard shot. Without any particular training apart from "here's how to fire the damn gun."
(/EDIT)
Your effective skill falls off for distance. Someone 20 yards away is at -6 to hit. Someone 100 yards away is at -10 to hit. So you pick an accurate weapon, in which you have good skill, and aim. With a scope.
Even then, just to hit (and do standard HP damage) all you have to do is roll well enough to hit. If your effective skill is 11, you only have to roll 11 or less (with GURPS, low rolls are better).
If you want to do a called shot (another issue I have with d20) you can choose to take a penalty to the shot, ranging from -2 for a leg or arm, to -7 to do a head shot. This allows you to not kill someone while still stopping them (a limb shot may well cripple that limb, and you can't run on a crippled leg, or fight with a crippled arm) or knock over a tough opponent with a single well-aimed shot.
While GURPS characters start at 10 HP (and don't automatically increase) some may have 12, 15 or even more hit points. Against that, a 2d6+2 wound (9mm pistol) is unlikely to immediately bring them down. But that's a 9mm wound to the torso (shoulder, say). But aimed at the leg or arm, that's a leg or arm out of action. And aimed at the head (presuming you hit) that's serious damage - after 2 points of damage is taken off for the skull, the remainder is multiplied by 4. Even if it doesn't kill outright (and it might), there's a very good chance that the character will be down and seriously unconscious. And might even die before medical attention can arrive.
Which, IMO, sounds more realistic than 'aiming' at someone's head and getting absolutely no joy because your damage was still less than his 20+ HP.
Let's look at the "big game hunter" and "sniper" scenarios.
A big game hunter is stalking an elephant. He has a Rigby Best Quality Double .470 Nitro Express, which does 8d6+2 with a modifier (due to caliber) that multiplies damage by 1.5 once armour is bypassed.
The elephant has thick hide (reducing damage by 4) and 45 hit points.
Let's see how we go.
We shall presume he stalks close enough to put his sights exactly where he wants them, and that he rolls well enough to hit his target, the elephant's Vitals (-3 modifier). Old Jumbo has a Size Modifier of +3 (he's an elephant) which gives our hunter that modifier to his shot.
He fires.
The bullet does 8d6+2, as mentioned before. This averages to 30 points of damage. 4 points are taken off by the hide, leaving 26 points of damage. Normally, this would multiply by 1.5 to 39, but it's been aimed at the vitals, so the multiplier is x3 instead, to 78.
The elephant takes damage that pushes him to -33 HP. He's not killed outright, but several aspects do come into play:
1) he is on zero or less HP, so his movement is halved, and he has to make a HT roll (that is, Health. Similar to CON) every round (that is, every second) to avoid unconsciousness.
2) he has to make an immediate roll vs what is called a "Major Wound"; that is, he's taken more than half his HP in damage. The fact that it was to the vitals puts another -5 penalty on him. If he fails, he's down anyway. If he fails by 5 (a distinct possibility) he is unconscious. And if you're using the optional Bleeding rules, he has to make a HT roll every minute thereafter at -1 per 5 points of damage (that's -15, folks) or lose 1 HP, or 3 on a critical fail (note that as his HT is 12, he's trying to roll 3d6 under an effective number of -3. In this situation, a roll of 7 or more is a critical fail). It won't be long before he is rolling to stay alive...
That's the big game hunter. I think we can pretty well give the same argument to the sniper, only the officer is going to go down harder and probably have less chance of survival.
Note that anyone can aim carefully and shoot someone in the leg. Or the head. It doesn't take a six-month sniper course (the sniper's just got a higher skill in it).
So yeah, while it is possible to have more-or-less realistic gun rules, d20 ain't it.
My main gripes are: speed of shooting, no aim, need to take special feats or even classes to gain particular capabilities, no called shots, and lack of compatibility with soaring HP levels.
Wow, someone saved that? I don't know whether to laugh or ... okay, I'm gonna laugh.
There's a lot of amusing stuff on the internet :- }.
Guns are just plain broken.
I agree, just not in the same way.
The fundamental flaw with firearms in d20 Modern is that a single attack equals a single pull of the trigger. For the sake of game balance you only get to fire ten shots in a whole minute. The whole firearm frame-work takes a major face-plant when one attempts to apply realism.
The root cause is of course game balance, which is always artifical.
Now, what if in stead of a single pull of the trigger, a firearm attack is an attack routine where the character is firing off a couple of shots that collectively will either deal damage or not? With this basis, the Double Tap and Burst Fire attacks begin to make a kind of sense: they make those bullets count.
Here's a radical suggestion: Stop counting bullets and count attacks instead!
-DF
Guns are just plain broken.
Didn't the Catholic Church* declare that at some point, long ago... or was it the crossbow that was declared broken?
Guns are broken IRL; there's a reason most soldiers aren't strong/archaic weapon master. Unfortunately, many RPG players (and numerous flash animators, it would seem) think that bringing a knife to a gunfight should work just fine... and so we have artificial game balance. :P
* Not dogging on the church/religion. I just thought the comment was funny.
most of the time, the combat rules may not be totally realistic, but they seem to work out pretty well.
My gripes? 1. Major cultural bias towards the united states, 2. It's too easy to get a license to own and drive a MBT, 3. charismatic heroes should be a little better with the whole leadership thing than they are. The whole tree seems a little weak, especially if you take into account the insanity that the Field Officer's August leadership ability can pull off (we can turn our lv. 6 smart hero who is nonproficient in anything into a God of War that way... and our actual God of War can power attack/sunder his way through a brick wall with a dagger)
Seriously, those future classes are ludicrous. 8 levels of dreadnought and you can dual wield AAT-21's.
Guns are broken IRL; there's a reason most soldiers aren't strong/archaic weapon master. Unfortunately, many RPG players (and numerous flash animators, it would seem) think that bringing a knife to a gunfight should work just fine... and so we have artificial game balance. :p
Taking this in reverse order helps to understand something.
Bringing a knife to a gun fight is not a bad idea if you're highly trained with a knife. The Filipino police force trains its officers in advanced knife-fighting techniques specifically versus those with firearms. Hence my second point, which is that modern soldiers (in the real world) aren't strong/archaic weapon masters because it's cheaper to train grunts to use guns than knives.
I'm not arguing that knives are "better" weapons than guns (so I'd appreciate it if nobody took on that strawman). I am instead arguing that there are great reasons to pit knives against guns under specific circumstances (e.g., you don't have funding for guns/ammunition, but you do have time to train), and the opposite is also true (i.e., you have lots of money for guns/ammo, but you want to train a huge number of people relatively quickly).
All that being said, there are two reasons why firearms are nerfed in d20M. First and foremost, the system was designed for D&D, where melee and magic are the "weapons of choice" and firearm-type projectiles just don't exist, thus the system is geared in a particular direction. I don't have a problem with this in d20M though because (second) that game is based primarily on action movies in which melee fighters commonly take on and defeat people with firearms, especially in martial-arts movies
If you want to change the game to one where firearms truly rule, you'll need to rewrite the rules a bit. If that's what you're into, then by all means! Just publish your results on a website or in the form of a PDF.
Bringing a knife to a gun fight is not a bad idea if you're highly trained with a knife. The Filipino police force trains its officers in advanced knife-fighting techniques specifically versus those with firearms. Hence my second point, which is that modern soldiers (in the real world) aren't strong/archaic weapon masters because it's cheaper to train grunts to use guns than knives.
This is why U.S. cops are trained to take a step back before firing when an offender charges them from twenty-ish feet (more or less. I can never remember the specific range.) Supposedly that distance is the maximum a knife-fighter could close with and kill you from while you take aim and fire ('safely').
Further off-topic: U.S. armed forces, at least those specializing in ground ops, DO train their soldiers in knife-fighting, fighting with bayonnettes, and unarmed combat in addition to "quick and easy" firearms training. It's certainly not a specialty, but to say they aren't formidable opponents in melee combat would be a mistake.
In addition, I know quite a few people who have been in combat in the Middle East (comes with living in a town next to a Navy base). Most have the attitude that their training in hand-to-hand combat went to waste - primarily because the enemy was already dead/surrendered before they got into the range where any sort of melee-combat could happen.
I'm not arguing that knives are "better" weapons than guns (so I'd appreciate it if nobody took on that strawman). I am instead arguing that there are great reasons to pit knives against guns under specific circumstances (e.g., you don't have funding for guns/ammunition, but you do have time to train), and the opposite is also true (i.e., you have lots of money for guns/ammo, but you want to train a huge number of people relatively quickly).
However, given the opportunity to purchase those guns, regardless of training time, you're going to want them instead - or with the knives as back-up weapons. The proverb "don't bring a knife to a gun fight" assumes you have the option to bring a gun, or so I've always thought.
I'm not sure if "because we can't arm everyone with guns" is a great reason. Perhaps it's an acceptable one, but certainly not as commendable as the word "great" would convey. - I guess that's just arguing semantics, though.
All that being said, there are two reasons why firearms are nerfed in d20M. First and foremost, the system was designed for D&D, where melee and magic are the "weapons of choice" and firearm-type projectiles just don't exist, thus the system is geared in a particular direction. I don't have a problem with this in d20M though because (second) that game is based primarily on action movies in which melee fighters commonly take on and defeat people with firearms, especially in martial-arts movies
If you want to change the game to one where firearms truly rule, you'll need to rewrite the rules a bit. If that's what you're into, then by all means! Just publish your results on a website or in the form of a PDF.
I'm in the process of doing this... Kinda on hiatus right now, as my inspiration and effort has been stolen and placed into another system, but it's in development. I'm hoping to make melee weapons hurt really freakin' bad (as they should) if said melee guy gets up close to you... which will be easier said than done.
I'm not sure if "because we can't arm everyone with guns" is a great reason. Perhaps it's an acceptable one, but certainly not as commendable as the word "great" would convey. - I guess that's just arguing semantics, though.
The thought process that says "if you can't get a gun, get really good with a knife" is the same one that says "if you don't have a big army, get really good at deploying a small one." Guerilla tactics and knives work.
I'm in the process of doing this...
Cool! Please post it somewhere when you have it. I suspect it would be a fundamental change to the way the game is played. Some variation on vitality/wounds might do the job.
The thought process that says "if you can't get a gun, get really good with a knife" is the same one that says "if you don't have a big army, get really good at deploying a small one." Guerilla tactics and knives work.
I see where you're coming from now. See, I'm thinking of open combat, not "hide and go stab". It's the fighter behind a weapon that determines its usefulness - though more advanced weaponry does give an advantage. Gorillas with suppressed submachineguns will have an edge on gorillas with knives given the same level of training. That's my argument.
Cool! Please post it somewhere when you have it. I suspect it would be a fundamental change to the way the game is played. Some variation on vitality/wounds might do the job.
Oh, the change is pretty big, down to creating separate HP pools for called shots and fun/gritty stuff like that (which isn't as bad as it sounds, since the information would -hopefully- be printed on the character sheet instead of just a table somewhere). It makes things more lethal, but I believe it avoids the normal pitfalls of called shot houserules. It'll probably change again when I finish work on my revised version of Hand2Hand (what's stolen my attention at the moment). The new H2H is currently being developed for a D&D revamp, though I plan to change it a lot if/when I import it into my D20Modern revamp.
But yes, that is kind of what I'm saying. I mean, I don't know what constitutes "equal training" for a knife fighter versus, say, a pistol fighter. The two would use very different tactics (i.e., run for cover vs. close the distance) and I think if you don't have access to a gun, taking a knife to a gun fight and using it well might just save your life. I don't like the equation "gun > knife." It's too simple. It doesn't take into account exactly the kind of stuff you're talking about: training, terrain/environment, numbers, motivation/morale, etc. Even if "all things being equal," you're better off with a gun, "all things" are rarely equal.
You don't need to reload a knife. (see: V for Vendetta)
Nope, but if you throw them like he does, you'll run out of knives all the same. ;)
@ Orion - That's not an equation. That's a statement. :P
Like it or not, the firearm as it is today is a superior weapon to melee weapons in most situations. There are a couple of situations, depending on the firearm, ammunition count, and whatenot, where guns may be outshone by melee weapons, but on the average the guy with the gun is going to win.
A more appropriate statement would be the following: Gun > Knife where Gun = +10 and Knife = +2. Now plug that into the equation: 2G+2S+M+4T=?=4K+1S+2M+5T, get the other values, and solve for the victor. :P
I think the statement I'm willing to agree with is that with no training, the person with the gun is most likely going to "win" (by whatever definition you want to offer), but once you introduce other factors I need to know what those other factors are before I'm willing to make any particular call. I'm an academic and sometimes a lateral thinker. I really need more facts before I'm willing to make an assessment.
Fair enough?
in the Romans vs Modern thread?
You can be surrounded by six men with guns all pointed at you. The second guy to the left decides to shoot you. You instantly know this, and get a free attack on him. Before he shoots you.
I'd like to address this. First of all, if you find yourself surrounded by enemies that are all using guns, then ( edit: ) either you are flat-footed (and can't take attacks of opportunity), or by the time the goons start shooting you've already thrown your first punch.
At the point where you get to take an AO, you're not waiting for anybody to take their sweet time deciding whether to shoot you or not. The first goon to act is just the first guy you get to chse wether or not to react to.
So: If you're not flat-footed and you're not unarmed you still only get a single attack of opportunity against one guy out of six that are preparing to pump you full of lead.
And if the goons have room to maneuvre they can just step back 5 ft. and avoid your threat range all-together.
Do AoO's occur simultaneously, or before the ranged attack? It would certainly be a little more fair if it was simultaneous. I only noticed this today, but it is ridiculously easy to disarm a gun- if you use a disarm of opportunity, nobody will get to shoot you point blank, if it's before the attack.
Attacks of opportunity are worked out before the action that triggers them. E.g. moving out of a threatened square which would easily bring you out of reach.
Also, the Attack of Opportunity is just a melee attack, nothing fancy. Unless you read this to mean a lot more than it says:
Making an Attack of Opportunity
An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and a character can only make one per round.
-DF
If a character is making a melee attack against an opponent, and an ally directly opposite the character is threatening the opponent, the character and his or her ally flank the opponent. The character gains a +2 bonus on his or her attack roll. The ally must be on the other side of the opponent so that the opponent is directly between the character and the ally.
Because there's no sneak attack in d20M, there's nothing more to flanking than a +2 (which kinda blows if you ask me; I'd rather that bonus where based on level or BAB or something like that, but that's a separate issue). And even in D&D, "flanked" does not equal "flat-footed." Very very few things can make you flat-footed after a fight has already started.
Also, the Combat Reflexes feat can give you more attacks of opportunity than just the one. Up to four or five, even, depending on how high you can get your Dex.
But none of that bothers me, to be honest. It just means that it's really dumb to shoot someone from 5 feet away. Take a step back. Keep your gun out of their reach. That seems pretty basic to me. It's a bit odd that anyone gets a chance to smack you in the teeth for firing that gun. Some kind of "Melee Firearms" feat that allows you to make a check to avoid the AO would be nifty, for example.
But ultimately, the rules as written mean that if 8 goons surround a hero, and that hero is specifically prepared to make multiple attacks of opportunity and is an especially good melee fighter, the hero might just explode in a flurry of fists and feet, like Cleric Preston in Equilibrium. That's just fine with me. If you specialise in something, you should be really good at it. You should get to play the Big Damn Hero. I have said before and I'll say it again, this system is not designed to be realistic. It's designed to simulate the ridiculous lunacy that's in action movies.
bullets.
ALso, when did this turn into another damn gun thread? :P
No, this is a common misconception. Being flanked does not make you flat-footed:
Doh! I meant "either you're flat footed, or you've taken an action and you're not". I wanted to highlight the absurdity of Ack's suggestion that in combat each combatant just stands perfectly still until they suddenly act on their turn and that provoking AO's is somehow due to the threatening character's ESP ability rather than the fact that he's just exploiting the fact that they are letting their guard down and exposing themselves to a counter-attack.
-DF
Take a leaf from teh T20 (Traveller d20) rules...
If you fire a burst from an automatic weapon, you can either do suppression fire on an area, or a concentrated burst against a single target.
T20 gives both an attack and a damage bonus (measured in extra dice of damage) for burst fire, maxing out at +10 for each with a 100-shot burst.
Suppression fire allows you to make an attack roll against any target present in the specified area at -4, and until the start of your next turn, any new target that presents itself within the area allows you to make a new attack roll against that target. There is also a damage bonus depending on the rate of fire of the weapon (not as great as for concentrated burst fire), and a note that you cannot make more attack rolls than the actual rate of fire.
I think something on these lines could work to fix the autofire rules.
Also, the stamina/lifeblood rules in T20 (something very similar, if not identical, is in the d20 SRD) should be implemented to make guns an actual threat to life and limb.
Fixing damage is the first step to fixing combat in d20 modern.
Fixing special attacks is the second step to fixing combat in d20 modern.
Fixing vehicles is the third step to fixing combat in d20 modern.
For all three, Cyber-Dave has some old stuff that works. I'm not sure if it's still around, since he's changed his signature to remove his old rules, but they worked fairly well. Heck, you could just steal from Spycraft. In the old Spycraft first edition you got two half-actions each round (as opposed to a move and standard). Each half-action could be used for an attack. Mind you, they used VP/WP (not a bad system, though Saga's Condition track works well too).
Doh! I meant "either you're flat footed, or you've taken an action and you're not". I wanted to highlight the absurdity of Ack's suggestion that in combat each combatant just stands perfectly still until they suddenly act on their turn and that provoking AO's is somehow due to the threatening character's ESP ability rather than the fact that he's just exploiting the fact that they are letting their guard down and exposing themselves to a counter-attack.
-DF
What I'm saying is that a bunch of goons have surrounded Our Hero at a distance of 5 feet. He's not flat-footed, because he knows they're there and knows they're hostile. (Let's say, just to put the clincher on this, that he got initiative and swung a punch at one of these guys, but missed).
Yeah, they're being stupid by standing too close, but hey, they're goons. It's hard to get good help these days.
Let's also suppose that Our Hero has either 1) a baseball bat, or 2) Combat Martial Arts.
Now, all of the thugs were given orders not to shoot him, but Thug #3, off Our Hero's left shoulder, is a little hard of thinking, and anyway he's still smarting from the touch-up Our Hero gave him the last time they met (dumped a garbage bin over his head and then played a tune on it with that same baseball bat).
So he decides what the hey, he'll get himself a square-up, and proposes to pull his trigger.
However, in between the decision to do so, and the actual fact of his finger applying the final pressure to that trigger, Our Hero automatically intuits that this thug is going to shoot him now, so he spins around and clocks him with the baseball bat. Because he was about to shoot. Not because he did shoot, or because he made a threat to shoot, but because he intended to.
I know it sounds contrived, but them's the rules as written.
And there's a reason that people get in that close to shoot. Because gunfights past about ten feet away tend to end up with a lot of missed shots.
I know it sounds contrived, but them's the rules as written.
Contrived would be the word, yes.
-DF
I believe Ack is pointing out that there is absolutely no way to roll high and get your shot off at an adjacent 'armed' target, no matter how low a dex or initiative rolled by the target he is faster than the shooter by definition.
When Tommy TwoShivs bursts out from concealment to charge some mook leaning on the wall next to the door he is guarding, the guard is hosed. Tommy gets his suprise charge, then even if Tommy rolls a 1 on Init, the mook cannot step out of threat due to his wall proximity and has absolutely no way to getting a shot off before Tommy takes his AoO. The guard would go first if he tried to stab Tommy, or if he was a punchy guy and took a CMA swing at tommy. He can take any non-provoking action before Tommy. But as soon as he decided to take a shot at Tommy TwoShivs he gets stabbed by Tommy without any possible way to be faster.
On the above logic, Anyone rntending to attack shoul be subject to the AOO, If intent to attack is the trigger.
I sort of like the firearm AoO, though, because it makes for interesting fights.
Boss & Mook get engaged by a couple of pistolero PCs.
Both the Boss and the mook decide to run up and get all kungfuey on the PCs with their CMA.. they figure to get a bunch of AoO on the poor PCs.
Unfortunately, PC1 took Gunslinger levels and dont provoke while he shoots, PC2 draws machette.
Seeing their punchy plans wont work, Boss steps 5' back to cast a spell while Mook just casts.
The PCs are both standing right there, Boss & mook are both provoking AoO.
PC2 has plenty of time get hurtful with the machette on the spellcasting Mook,
but for some reason PC1 has to just stand theer and watch PC2 chop Mook, he is not allowed to spend that same time popping a cap at Boss that is doing the same provoking thing as Mook.
Time is created, but just for machette PC2,
PC1 and the enemies just stand in stopped time while PC1 gets to AoO.
It doesnt matter if they were casting spells, tieing their showes, texting their BFF... whatever would draw AoO from machetteman CANNOT draw AoO from the pistolero just 5' away.... pistolero PC is frozen while machetteman PC gets plenty of time against identical targets.
Had the pistolero PC drew a Pike from his boot,
the pike with reach could AoO the Boss while machetteman PC2 hacks Mook.
Plenty of time to get pokey with the pikey at the 5' away target, but with a pistol he has to just sit & watch Boss cast/text/Tetris/ make a sandwich / or whatever else that provokes
With ranged attacks, the same situations wouldn't really apply, because there is no harm in taking a potshot at someone. If they are letting their guard down and you shoot at them, how is that different in any way. If you do have ranged AoO, I would think they would have totally different activators than melee ones (A person leaving cover might provoke, for example).
I totally agree with the idea of being able to do AoOs with a ranged weapon. Problem is "letting your guard down" in a melee fight is completely different from "letting your guard down" in a gun fight. In a gun fight, "letting your guard down" is doing anything but ducking behind cover.
Just a thought.
Has anyone here tried having ranged AoO's work similarly to how Dodge works? You pick a target, and if that sucker moves without keeping behind cover you get to shoot him (once, or more times depending on your feats).
This is great! I love it. Lemme toss something together in the hope that we can make it better.
RANGED OPPORTUNIST
Benefit: You must designate a single target during combat to use this feat. When that target emerges from cover (e.g., to make an attack or take a quick look) or moves in the open (i.e., is not behind cover while doing so), you get an attack of opportunity with a ranged weapon that you have drawn and ready (firearm, projectile, thrown weapon, etc.). You do not get an attack of opportunity if your target takes only a five-foot step.
You must accurately keep track of where your target is in order to use this feat. For example, if your target is just around a corner and emerges from cover, you can take an attack of opportunity. If your target circles around a corridor and emerges from a different spot, you do not get an attack of opportunity unless you somehow kept track of exactly where the target was.
Normal: You do not get an attack of opportunity with a firearm.
Comments?
in a gun fight. In a gun fight, "letting your guard down" is doing anything but ducking behind cover.
+1 ;)
Though that should be standard rule And not a feat. There is a reason that You dont bring a knife to a gun fight.
Can anyone think of a good and or logical reason for guns to provoke AOO anyway?
Can anyone think of a good and or logical reason for guns to provoke AOO anyway?
I think the rules as written are assuming your aiming carefully and not firing from the hip. Thus, in the short amount of time it takes you to acquire your target in close combat, he tries to hit you before you shoot his face off.
Good job on the feat, Orion. I agree with Yar, but that's probably just a matter of taste.
Since we're houseruling:
Shoot from the Hip
A character in melee combat can choose to shoot from the hip instead of draw an attack of opportunity. When shooting from the hip, characters take a -4 to attack rolls with the ranged weapon.
Reflexive Shooter
A character with this feat can shoot from the hip without taking the normal accuracy penalty. In addition, if his weapon is already drawn, he may make a single attack during a surprise round even if he would normally be surprised.
Normal: Characters shooting from the hip take a -4 to their attack rolls. Surprised characters cannot act in a surprise round.
Of course the feat makes the Gunslinger's ability kinda useless... but that class needs love anyway.
Can anyone think of a good and or logical reason for guns to provoke AOO anyway?
EDIT: I miss read this initially, so I'll just say that the following now pertains to why you should be allowed to make AoOs with a gun. :P
Running straight at someone with a gun will get you killed. But not in d20 Modern. All it will do is close the gap between you and the shooter so you can thoroughly kick his ass. And if he tries to shoot you, he just provokes more ass kicking.
In Modern you can casually stroll between points of cover without ever worrying about getting shot in between.
Its faster to pull the trigger than it is to swing a sword or punch. Being that close you don't even have to aim, just have the barrel pointing in their general vicinity. But not in d20 Modern. In d20 Modern you get killed for trying to shoot your gun.
In general, shooting is faster than making a melee attack.
Ever watch those war movies where the characters have to duck behind cover because if they move at all, they will die?
Finally, this. :P
d20 Modern give melee the advantage. Its fear of guns makes it so its not fair or balanced for shooters at all. Heck, melee classes are even better shooters than the shooting classes for goodness sake.
Though that should be standard rule And not a feat. There is a reason that You dont bring a knife to a gun fight.
Agree +1.
You can only make attacks of opportunity with melee weapons, natural weapons, pistols, carbines, and any weapons with a folded stock. You may also make attacks of opportunity while unarmed if you have the Martial Arts I feat.
That pretty much covers what we're try to do, no? Plus, firing a ranged weapon doesn't provoke AoOs in Saga.
Heck, the condition track itself would make for a more "realistic" combat experience, if only because as you get hurt, you can't fight as well. But since we're talking about ranged combat right now, I think that little line from saga pretty much fixes our problems. Of course, you need to define what a carbine is in d20 Modern, but that's nothing big (SMGs would be my take on the matter).
I believe Ack is pointing out that there is absolutely no way to roll high and get your shot off at an adjacent 'armed' target, no matter how low a dex or initiative rolled by the target he is faster than the shooter by definition.
Hogwash. "Provoking an attack of opportunity" has to do with the acting character performing an action that momentarilly leaves him vulnerable to attack. It doesn't mean that the character is somehow being "trumped" with regards to initiative.
The issue here is that ranged attacks in general provoke attacks of opportunity, and there is obvioulsy some that think firearms should be an exception to this. I don't really care one way or another, so go ahead and house-rule that they don't. After all, pointing a gun and pulling a trigger is far quicker than loading, aiming and firing a bow, which is clearly where this is coming from (i.e. D&D 3.x).
Edit: I notice this was pretty much covered already. Oh, well.
-DF
Actually, it means exactly that.
CharA takes his turn, and uses all his actions.
CharB now has his turn and
..... BAM STOPTIME....
Because CharB is going to shoot, CharA gets some more action BEFORE CharB gets to do the thing that would allow said extra activity by CharA. Before, absolutely finitely carved in stone before. Not the same time, not "who is faster", the slowest slug 1st Newb on the planet gets to go BEFORE the 20BAB 24Dex guy can take his first of 4 shots that round.
CharA is indeed "Trumping" CharB's attempt to take his turn.
This used to make sense, because the activities that the AoO system had Provoking took time to do (cast, backpack, bind, write a twitter in combat), but pulling the trigger on a 9mm is hard to interupt the middle of, and makes no sense to act before the provoker can start pulling the trigger.
Perhaps we are to think that greatswords are so much faster than 9mm's
that a greatsword can get an AoO hit in while the 9mm is spending all that time pulling the trigger.... every time, no matter how slow or fast the folks are.
eg. SuperMook has +2 initiative because he has 15 dex. Col. Mustard has +6 initiative due to his high dex and imp. initiative, and decides to fire his classy .357 at supermook point blank, because that's how he rolls. Supermook has, in his hand, an only US army cavalry saber, and is about to run Col. Mustard through with his AoO... except Mustard fires first, due to his higher bonus. SuperMook is given a rather nice funeral and Evil Overlord hires people to visit his grave now and again.
You could settle it with an init roll, but that would slow things down more.
If SuperMook were to shoot Col. Mustard point blank, Mustard would get his attack off first. this might make imp. initiative a little overpowered.
Pistols (and other "light" sidearms) do not provoke AoOs. Ever.
Alternate: AoOs triggered by pistols (and other "light" sidearms) take place after the pistol attack.
Bear in mind, if you are shooting while in a melee, the other guy still has his turn to strike at you anyway.
In reality, a firearm is extremely easy to use even if proper use requires some training. Instead of adapting this into the system, they load the firearm user down with a bunch of standard penalties he needs to buy off. Feats for proficiency, autofire, double-tap etc.
This is artificial game balance, and trying to shoe-horn in realism at all cost... Well, there are better systems for that out there than d20 Modern.
-DF
If you're fine with that then more power to you, but some of us like things to make sense. Its not "shoehorning realism at all costs" its "modifying the rules to make sense as well as keep a semblance of balance."
Pistols (and other "light" sidearms) do not provoke AoOs. Ever.
Alternate: AoOs triggered by pistols (and other "light" sidearms) take place after the pistol attack.
Damn all these good ideas. Pstols are made for closer combat IMO so AOO shoudent be a factor. While rifles take some aiming and are bulkier So AOO seems more in line. Elegant and simple.
Damn all these good ideas. Pstols are made for closer combat IMO so AOO shoudent be a factor. While rifles take some aiming and are bulkier So AOO seems more in line. Elegant and simple.
It also gives an actual point to weapon sizes other than handedness and concealability.
I cant wait for the next episode in the Supermook saga.
I cant wait for the next episode in the Supermook saga.
Well, in case you didn't notice, he's dead.
lots of merchandising dollars left to milk out of the prequels
The Supermook franchise is an impending juggernaut
that just needs the proper exploitation to catapult it past those star things (war and trek, and gate)
It also gives an actual point to weapon sizes other than handedness and concealability.
From the SRD:
Longarms are not well suited to close combat. A character takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll when firing at an adjacent target.
It's right there above the weapon descriptions. Giving them an AoO and a -4 penalty seems a little harsh, don't you think? Maybe not- but it sure seems like a death sentence to me.
also,
Supermook !!
I cant wait for the next episode in the Supermook saga.
I might just sig that. it seems backstabbist quotes are mandatory, and this one is as good as the next
But Just for everyones FYI. The regonal dialect for he term Mook in Eastern Oregon is Stunt Monkey.
Super Mook II: Suprmook vs Stunt Monkey man.
It could be one giant series of explosins, with in your face annoying racial steriotypes For the whole movie. And at the end an anti-climatic battle between Super Mook and Stunt Monkey man.
Oh wait they already made tha movie, Damn you Transformers 2!!
[bold]Back on topic[/bold]
It's right there above the weapon descriptions. Giving them an AoO and a -4 penalty seems a little harsh, don't you think? Maybe not- but it sure seems like a death sentence to me.
Ya that harsh I think the AOO is bad eanough. A long arm is about the same sise as a Bastard sword so by Their logic Swords and realy anything with a reach score would have the -4 as well.
Ya that harsh I think the AOO is bad eanough. A long arm is about the same sise as a Bastard sword so by Their logic Swords and realy anything with a reach score would have the -4 as well.
I disagree with you there. Reach weapons, for one, can't attack adjacent squares at all, so that's settled.
As for the bastard sword, it's not about the size of the weapon, really. The sword all you have to do is hit the guy with it, with the rifle, you have to not hit him with it. (hit him with the gun part, the bullet part is what should hit the guy). I like the -4 penalty.
EDIT: I suck at explaining stuff. that didn't even make sense to me.
The rifle is unwieldy because it's for shooting people who are very far away. the bastard sword is great close up because it's a freakin' sword. So the rifle get's -4, while the sword gets a little bloody.
Also, Yar, no by that logic they would NOT have a -4 as well, because when you're shooting a rifle you're not trying to physically hit the person with the rifle.
"pistol" is shorthand for any ranged weapon which is considered "light" for the user. This generally means a weapon 1-2 feet long and designed to be used in one hand, for a human user.
"rifle" is shorthand here for any larger ranged weapon, including one-handed weapons that are 2-4 feet long.
Enemy attacks with melee weapon:
* RAW: He attacks. No aoo is triggered.
Enemy attacks with a pistol in melee range.
* RAW: You get an aoo if you are armed with a melee weapon.
* FIX: He attacks. No aoo is triggered.
Enemy attacks with a rifle in melee range.
* RAW: You get an aoo if you are armed with a melee weapon. he shoots at -4 on attack roll.
* FIX: You get an aoo if you are armed with a melee weapon or a pistol. He shoots at -4 on attack roll.
Enemy sends a text on his phone while in melee range.
* RAW: You get an aoo if you are armed with a melee weapon. His friend then receives a txt that reads "undr atk".
* FIX: You get an aoo if you are armed with a melee weapon or a pistol. His friend then receives a txt that reads "undr atk".
Enemy charges at you with his billy club / light sabre:
* RAW: He gets an attack with all normal bonuses for charging. No aoo is triggered.
* FIX: If you are armed with a pistol, an aoo is triggered as he moves from 10 ft to 5 ft. he then makes his attack with all normal bonuses for charging.
Summary of fixes:
1. Firing a pistol never triggers an aoo.
2. A pistol can be used to make an aoo, just like melee weapons (or unarmed strikes that count as "armed") can. A pistol is considered to threaten all spaces within 10 feet, as if it were simultaneously a normal melee weapon and a reach melee weapon.
3. Rifles can't be used to make an aoo. They never could under RAW anyway.
e.g., play RAW if you want to favour melee, but present a bunch of ways to emphasise firearms combat
pistols become sort of insane with those rules, don't you think? I mean, a character with glock and combat reflexes can lock down all movement within 10 feet of him. It becomes the new spiked chain.
Well, pistols are sort of insane in rl, compared to a knife. That proverb about bringing knives to gunfights didn't come about by accident.
If you have Combat Reflexes and a pistol, sure, go Johnny Woo on his ass. It's perfectly in-genre. Just make sure you don't run out of ammo.
About the only things pistols can't do compared to a melee weapon is disarm, overrun, charge, non-lethal damage, grapple, or trip.
Note that "pistol" refers to "light" weapons, using 3.5E terminology. Using 3E/d20m terminology, that would be a weapon that is fine/diminutive/tiny/small only, for a human-size character.
Alternate: "Pistol" ranged weapons (for human-size characters) do not trigger an aoo (unlike raw), but still cannot make an aoo (same as raw).
Most pistols are light weapons.
I still say though, 17 shots isn't an awful lot if you are pumping off multiple shots every round.
Its artificial game balance that unbalances the game in favor of the melee fighter.
Well, beeing able to attack any target within line of sight as opposed to having to move into reach of the target is in the ranged fighter's favor.
I'll agree that this is highly situational, but I think it is safe that the more flavor you add to your encounter locations with regards to terrain and movement (difficult/impassable terrain, leveled terrain), the more you favor the ranged fighter. The more cover you put in the more you favor the melee fighter.
Fighting in a meat-locker is definetly the melee fighters territory. Not so the empty parking-lot with enemies circling our heroes in helicopters...
-DF
Replace the nonlethal damage system with the subdual damage system from DnD. Keep the rule that nonlethal MAS knocks the target out, but remove the "dazed for one round even if you make the save" thing. One issue with this is that it might make the Knockout Punch feat tree too good. A possible solution is to say that the extra damage from a knockout punch isn't real damage, but is only added for the purposes of forcing a MAS save.
Have the Autofire save DC scale, +1 for every 5 points by which the attack roll exceeds the square's defense. This way, it's harder to dodge machine gun fire from Rambo than from a typical mook, and it can still be relevant for high level characters if the attacker is good enough.
I've considered having a similar scaling DC for massive damage, +1 for every 5 points of damage above the MAS threshold. If you wanted to make it really lethal, you could say that failing the save by more than 10 points results in instant death.
Anyone can make a Burst Fire attack, but it only does +1 die of damage. The Burst Fire feat does the standard +2 dice. Also, rather than the 13 Wisdom requirement, anyone with less than 13 Strength takes an additional -2 penalty when making a Burst Fire attack.
Responding to some things I saw earlier in the thread:
Problems:[LIST]
Special Ammo types dont scale with caliber... same explosive damage from a 55gr slug as 240gr
Huh? Last I checked, explosive damage did an extra die of damage, of the appropriate die type for the weapon. So a .50 caliber rifle would do an extra d12 of damage with explosive ammunition, whereas a 9mm pistol would do an extra d6 of damage.
Second example: snipers.
It is the Great War. Our sniper has a good view of the trenches, through which enemy officers are being escorted. He picks the one with the most scrambled-egg on his shoulders, and puts a 7.62mm round through his chest. Score one for the good guys.
In theory.
What actually happens is that he does 2d10 damage to him, which averages to 11 damage. Any sort of high ranking officer probably has a few levels even in NPC classes, such as Aristocrat. So our sniper has to hope that his target has less than 11 hp, or he's likely to merely get up, dust himself off, and wander off calling for an artillery strike on that pesky sniper.
In short, the sniper, while a little more accurate than your common oik in uniform, has no more chance to actually kill his target for all the fancy scopes and aiming in Christendom.
This ignores some pretty significant rules. First off, there are no NPC classes (and certainly no Aristocrat class) in d20 Modern. The closest equivalent are ordinary characters, which take base classes but don't get max hit points at first level, class features, or action points.
More importantly, this totally ignores the massive damage rules. It's been mentioned that massive damage isn't much of an issue for high-level characters, and you talked about how it doesn't help with big game hunting. However, it certainly is an issue here.
The Ordinaries section of the Core Rulebook doesn't have a military officer, so let's use the Gang Leader archetype. A high-level one is a Strong Ordinary 5/Charismatic Ordinary 5. He has 50 hit points, so at first glance one would think he could shrug off even a critical hit from a 2d10 rifle. However, he has a Constitution of 12, just 1 point higher than the average damage. His Fort save is +7, so he'd need to roll at least an 8 to make a massive damage save. The end result is that if he got hit by an attack that dealt at least 12 damage, he'd have a 35% chance of falling unconscious and starting to bleed to death.
And that's the high-level one. It also doesn't take some other things into account, such as aging effects. If this high ranking officer was older than 40, his Constitution would drop to 11, and his Fort save to +6.
Problems:
Special Ammo types dont scale with caliber... same explosive damage from a 55gr slug as 240gr
Huh? Last I checked, explosive damage did an extra die of damage, of the appropriate die type for the weapon. So a .50 caliber rifle would do an extra d12 of damage with explosive ammunition, whereas a 9mm pistol would do an extra d6 of damage.
Please refer to the 55r caliber and the 240gr caliber in my post.
2d8 55gr 5.56mm
2d8 240gr 44mag
You can replace way more than 56 gr of core in the 240gr 44mag,
but you cannot replace 56 gr of core in the 55gr 223
240gr 44 slugs OBVIOUSLY pack many time the explosives than the 55gr 22 slug,
so they get the same explosive damage by RAW.
Alas
which carries more explosives
115gr 9mm
230gr 45acp
RAW says the bullet weighing twice as much gets the same amount of explosives.
230gr 45acp, d6 explosives
150gr 30-30, d8 explosives
140gr 7mag, d10 explosives
the smaller you make the bullet, the more explosives it carries
... in the land of crack smokers
WOW!! me andm friends just came up with the worlds coolest Wealth fix this weekend. Just get rid of it and go back to cold hard cash as a measure of how much cold hard cash you got.
Whadya all think?
Isn't that what the d20 Modern Apocolypse book does with wealth rolls?
M.
..... oops
deleted rant was based on me misreading the above post
nevermind
Damni missed a backstabby rant. Oh well.. Anyway D20 apocalypse dose do that but still sort of obscure abstract way. Looks like they base the trade units to the the usefullness the item has to survival on some degree. The trick would be to come up wth a balanced spread. Someting like 2d4 + wealth bonus from profession x 1000$ was something that was thrown around my game table this wekend. That way the character can strt with some decent equipment, a used car, and a few other niceties.
WOW!! me andm friends just came up with the worlds coolest Wealth fix this weekend. Just get rid of it and go back to cold hard cash as a measure of how much cold hard cash you got.
Whadya all think?
It works absolutely fine, so long as you ignore complex things like taxes, credit, stocks, etc. (unless you really want to play D20 Accountant). Also, sometimes it's tricky figuring out the cost of something most people normally never have access to, like a jaws of life or strong acid. (although, if you can't figure it out, you can run the PDC backwards through the conversion table to get an approximate dollar value).
The way I'm working my current game, non-elites deal in direct cash/cost, while the elites use the wealth roll to deal with buying things.
This is because those on the bottom can't get loans, stocks, etc.
M.
WOW!! me andm friends just came up with the worlds coolest Wealth fix this weekend. Just get rid of it and go back to cold hard cash as a measure of how much cold hard cash you got.
Whadya all think?
I like it.
Player: "I buy a new lap top for my character."
GM: "Ok, that's about one thousand dollars for an above mid-range notebook computer. Let me see the money."
Player (pull out a wad of dollar bills): "Let's see... that's 1000." (Hands cold hard cash to the GM)
WOW!! me andm friends just came up with the worlds coolest Wealth fix this weekend. Just get rid of it and go back to cold hard cash as a measure of how much cold hard cash you got.
Whadya all think?
I like it.
Player: "I buy a new lap top for my character."
GM: "Ok, that's about one thousand dollars for an above mid-range notebook computer. Let me see the money."
Player (pull out a wad of dollar bills): "Let's see... that's 1000." (Hands cold hard cash to the GM)
ROFL! Who said GMing doesn't pay?
Yeah getting wonky and or Illegal stuff like acid might require deplomacy checks and what not. I say ignore taxes and credit in RPG's tht crap probably dosent realy come up tooften i imagine ingame. When was the last time you said "Ok player your character need to pay his taxes."
Anyway
Yeah getting wonky and or Illegal stuff like acid might require deplomacy checks and what not. I say ignore taxes and credit in RPG's tht crap probably dosent realy come up tooften i imagine ingame. When was the last time you said "Ok player your character need to pay his taxes."
Anyway
Taxes not so much, but in modern settings credit and loans will come up quite often when your players want something they don't have the cash on hand to buy. The wealth system was specifically designed because a player stumped one of the designers by wanting to buy equipment with a credit card in one of his Modern-playtest games.
Actually, I'm sure after some time your players would probably start bringing up taxes jokingly... at least at first...
I think credit can be conveniantly ignored. Or hell use it It basicaly just a loan anyway which the player has to (or atlast Sould) pay back.
I think credit can be conveniently ignored. Or hell use it It basically just a loan anyway which the player has to (or at least Should) pay back.
umm, that is what Credit actually is, a loan you have to pay back
The question is not how do I loan $3000 to the character and have him payback $250/mo,
but a matter of how do I determine if the character could get a $3000 loan at all.
But since characters have Wealth, Reputation, and charisma scores
we can devise a mechanic system for applying for credit and repaying/defaulting if we wanted to.
Now before folks jump in and say nobody wants to play d20Accounting,
obviously SOMEBODY does indeed want to apply for a loan in game
.... otherwise we wouldnt be having the problem that needs a solution in the first place.
I think credit can be conveniently ignored. Or hell use it It basically just a loan anyway which the player has to (or at least Should) pay back.Now before folks jump in and say nobody wants to play d20Accounting,
obviously SOMEBODY does indeed want to apply for a loan in game
.... otherwise we wouldnt be having the problem that needs a solution in the first place.
Thats it...next person who says d20 Accounting is gonna geta CT thats says "plays d20Accounint" once the forums are fixed enough for them to worry about.
d20 Accounting. 
d20 Accounting.
you little creep....you just oculdn't resist could oyu? >_>
Given the 4e way of remaking games,
d20Accounting-4e will be a high bodycount quest for blood XP by PCs that cant take "NonCombat" classes
That said, I have no better solution than the ones presented, so there you go.
Wealth rolls are really the opposite of having a number of bills in your possesion that decreases when you pay those bills out for purchases.
d20Modern Wealth score is more akin to the size of the MoneyTree in your back yard.
If you have a size 14 MoneyTree, you may pick 14 money from it as much as you want to make purchases costing upto 14. The size14 MoneyTree will just grow more money to always have 14. Every day you just get more money from the tree, and considering how few characters spend 8hr a day at work its odd they get all this money without a job.
In a cash system, if you are middleclass and sell a gun, you get $200.
In a MoneyTree system, if you are Wealth14 and sell a gun you get nothing
The Cash system works in d20Modern
until the chars want to finance something or get credit. How much did your cell phone cost when you flat out bought it? It is far more likely you have an expensive phone and paid for it by signing a 2year contract to pay a little each month. OK, no reason we cant game that, but what happens when you miss a payment? Nice car, what happens when you miss a payment? You probably have electicity at your house, what happens when you miss a few payments?
GMs are afraid to engage in the modern world of financing for their characters
because it would be some more work for the GM to make sure the players pay their bills.
Instead, we have the dumbing down of america witha game that eliminates folka having to pay their bills in a timely manner.... lets all buy cool stuff and not care that the first of teh month is next week and we got bills to pay.
I for one think the burden of paying your bills would be a great feature in a game set in a time where folks have to pay their bills. Think of all the plot hooks you can make over getting back stuff that got repo'ed
Think of all the plot hooks you can make over getting back stuff that got repo'ed
it wasn't his stuff,but that pesky water bill...
Just for the heck of it, I sliped a note to a player saying that his water was going to be turned off by a deadline,if he didn't pay the bill. So, the player got into the idea and before he could get to the water department to pay,they had to deal with terrorist holed up in a warehouse,sop the PC went down into the sewer system below the complex and planted enough C4 to bring it down,which he does with the excuse of "I gotta be somewhere by 4pm"
So, it turned into an adventure of drive checks (haha traffic jams).....and he made it on time too.
Well we coul make a blanket lifestyle for sale. This lifestyle states wat kind of car you have what kind of house yo have and so forth a high eanough lifestyle would maybe involve health insurance. This takes into account allot of things a character may need a loan for.
Or you culd just Rp the loan. Oh lookie ther your late, the loanshark/bank sends thugs to Hurt You/Repo your stuff.
Loansharks feature in my setting; I figure it would simply be a + bonus to your wealth roll...the hard part is figuring out how you could pay it back using the wealth roll.
Also, how do you handle wealth rolls for characters who are unemployed?
M.
[snip] I meant for this to be a new tead.
Random Wealth idea: Both.
Everything has a money value and an associated PDC. Except the Wealth score will now be called the Credit score, and should be modified so it will not be able to increase nearly as easily. This way if a player wants to purchase something via credit they can, or if they have cash on hand they can use that too. Also makes it easier for DMs to hand out briefcases of money as rewards.
Would need a lot of work to implement though.
Random Wealth idea: Both.
Everything has a money value and an associated PDC. Except the Wealth score will now be called the Credit score, and should be modified so it will not be able to increase nearly as easily. This way if a player wants to purchase something via credit they can, or if they have cash on hand they can use that too. Also makes it easier for DMs to hand out briefcases of money as rewards.
Would need a lot of work to implement though.
You probably couldn't increase your credit score via selling mook guns, so you can't get richer than Continential Europe that way. Thats a plus.
How about the only way to boost your credit score is by levelling up using the regular way (profession check) representing how reliable you are etc. and how much the bank wants to loan you, and goes down when you buy stuff (the normal way). The difference is that selling stuff will only boost your on-hand wealth.
How does that sound?
The main argument that favours the Wealth system is that it allows you to ignore the complexities of our real-world economy. That said, swapping over to nickles and dimes isn't all that much of a problem: Just track spending money instead. Sure, you may be paying taxes, motgages, electricity and utility bills, but you ignore all that. Instead you focus on the lump of money your characters have availalbe for spending on their adventures, and it's from this budget they buy the equipment and services that apply to adventuring.
-DF
The main argument that favours the Wealth system is that it allows you to ignore the complexities of our real-world economy. That said, swapping over to nickles and dimes isn't all that much of a problem: Just track spending money instead. Sure, you may be paying taxes, motgages, electricity and utility bills, but you ignore all that. Instead you focus on the lump of money your characters have availalbe for spending on their adventures, and it's from this budget they buy the equipment and services that apply to adventuring.
-DF
No, you missed the point.
The actual main argument that favors the Wealth system is that, due to the complexities of our real-world economy, that buying equipment and services that apply to adventuring doesn't have to come from the nickles and dimes in their pockets at all.
That solves a few problems, primarily the violation of verisimilitude when you say "you find a bag of Wealth +1."
Maybe "money" is an item you can expend to lower a purchase DC by X?
M.
Money is linear, but PDC is exponential.
A single quantity of money cant lower two different PDCs the same amount:
$50 cash wont lower the OPDC of a Buick at all,
but it will lower the PDC of a box of 45 shells to zero or below
Simplest fix with the most corrective power is
just change the PDC15 hard point to be Wealth/2.
You buy something over 1/2 Wealth it costs you 1Wealth,
you sell something under 1/2Wealth you gain nothing.
Buying a box of 45shells SHOULD be a financial hardship for poor Jimmy the Squeeler,
just as buying a Glock SHOULDNT be one for Bill Gates.
if you wanna play a stabby guy but still want more dangerous guns couldnt you make a feat that allows you to take atacks of opportunity on guys with light guns?
somthing like this?
whirling dervish
you are adept at exploiting split second weaknesses in an opponents defenses
prerequisites: bab +5, combat reflexes
benefit: you can make attacks of opportunity in melee against enemies weilding light firearms
normal: a character without whirling dervish cannot make attacks of opportunity on an opponent weilding a light firearm
PEACH
if you wanna play a stabby guy but still want more dangerous guns couldnt you make a feat that allows you to take atacks of opportunity on guys with light guns?
somthing like this?
whirling dervish
you are adept at exploiting split second weaknesses in an opponents defenses
prerequisites: bab +3, combat reflexes
benefit: you can make attacks of opportunity in melee against enemies weilding light firearms
normal: a character without whirling dervish cannot make attacks of opportunity on an opponent weilding a light firearm
PEACH
I think you need to re-read the argument, you're proposing a fix for the exact opposite of the problem.
i guess... it seems to me that if you want to apply some of the rules for more dangerous guns then you might want to have have some options left for people who are dead set on making melee characters, this way it amps up the stabby guy but only if he can qualify for he feat... maybe i could make it harder to qualify for?
i guess... it seems to me that if you want to apply some of the rules for more dangerous guns then you might want to have have some options left for people who are dead set on making melee characters, this way it amps up the stabby guy but only if he can qualify for he feat... maybe i could make it harder to qualify for?
OH I see, my bad, I didn't realize you were proposing in addition to the alternate firearms and AoO rules.
haha no harm no foul and i could still see why you might object to it, it might end up kind of like the hp/damage creep in the later editions and sourcebooks of so many games
On Wealth:
I like the idea of changing the flat 15 PDC limit, for a start. However, I would make it some fixed number or 1/2 wealth bonus, whichever is higher. You shouldn't need a wealth bonus of +8 (corresponding to upper middle class according to the rulebook) to buy a roll of duct tape without affecting your finances.
On Firearms and AoOs: Maybe this could be based off of weapon size rather than weapon type. Small or smaller firearms do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Medium firearms do provoke attacks of opportunity. Large firearms provoke attacks of opportunity and have a -4 penalty against targets within 5 feet.
On Wealth:
I like the idea of changing the flat 15 PDC limit, for a start. However, I would make it some fixed number or 1/2 wealth bonus, whichever is higher. You shouldn't need a wealth bonus of +8 (corresponding to upper middle class according to the rulebook) to buy a roll of duct tape without affecting your finances.
Here's a take I did on the purchase DC 15 threshold:
"You shouldn't need a wealth bonus of +8 (corresponding to upper middle class according to the rulebook) to buy a roll of duct tape without affecting your finances."
I think you need to spend some time looking at the actual prices of stuff
and using the $ --> PDC table
rather than basing your games on the PDCs in the book.
Obviously the RAW fluff text descriptions of Wealth levels was done by cracksmokers.
MiddleClass folks are NOT Wealth5,
because middleclass dont become destitute by merely buying a plasmaTV.
(wealth5 buys PDC21 TV and loses 2d6+1 Wealth... most (avg7) would drop to Wealth-3)
The goal of Wealth was to eliminate the percieved tedium of balancing the chars rtecurring debt with their recurring income.... You make a single PDC purchase of that car or house and it is assumes you are continuing to pay the gas and electric bill till the end of time from your unspecified recurring income. So it is far FAR from that concept to consider a PDC21 plasmaTV as 'temporarily' making them Wealth0(or negative if you HR it) till they gain some more Wealth points.... obviously buying a house would do that too but doesnt happen in RAW. The Wealth system lets one assume you leveraged your finances to get that TV for invisible automatic $40/mo rather than paying cash and being 'temporarily' broke
We shouldnt use a mechanic that makes us assume the Wealth14 guy doesnt lose any wealth buying a $200(pdc13) item because he probably just financed it, but at the same time the Wealth16 guy permanently loses wealth buying a $500item(pdc). The WealthScore defines how expensive of items you can afford without losing wealth, and then they decide to break that concept with the PDC15 hard point.
A big part of the problem, here, is the fluff that surrounds Wealth. Don't go by the table that says "5 = Middle Class." Just use your Wealth as you see fit and then extrapolate what kind of lifestyle your character can afford, or make something up that fits.
I had a player who wanted to make her character a gazillionaire and she rigged the numbers as best she could to do so. Once she'd bought all her toys, she was nearly broke. Her solution was to say that her business manager had frozen her access to company funds because she was spending it on frivolous crap (like an armoured humvee jammed with M-16s). She still had her fancy Yaletown address and her "rich entrepreneur" status, just not actual cash-on-hand. This worked great! It followed the rules and it gave her the character she wanted. I was really impressed by how smoothly she solved that problem.
All sound reasoning, but my understanding was that if you have Wealth 5 and you buy something that brings you to 3 or even 0, that doesn't mean you've just had to move to an apartment made of cardboard in the alley. It means that you can't afford a major purchase until you come into some more money (i.e., you level up). If your current Wealth is low and you've sunk some points into Profession, you're likely to gain a lot of Wealth back (because the DC equals your current Wealth score). A big part of the problem, here, is the fluff that surrounds Wealth. Don't go by the table that says "5 = Middle Class." Just use your Wealth as you see fit and then extrapolate what kind of lifestyle your character can afford, or make something up that fits. I had a player who wanted to make her character a gazillionaire and she rigged the numbers as best she could to do so. Once she'd bought all her toys, she was nearly broke. Her solution was to say that her business manager had frozen her access to company funds because she was spending it on frivolous crap (like an armoured humvee jammed with M-16s). She still had her fancy Yaletown address and her "rich entrepreneur" status, just not actual cash-on-hand. This worked great! It followed the rules and it gave her the character she wanted. I was really impressed by how smoothly she solved that problem.
Your player gets a thumbs-up from me, that is quite good. I'll have to remember that.