In particular, what's up with the Magic Number 15? You can buy infinite DC 14 items, but for a rich enough PC or NPC, anything from purchase DC 15-80 will cost the same...
I'm mainly an fd20 man myself... so I rather was irritated by the aspect that for a rich enough character, it will cost 5 wealth points to buy 5 laser rifles, and only 1 wealth point to buy a Megadeath-Class Ubership that has quite a few more than 5 guns mounted on it. Okay, lets pretend that's bad, but not dystopian.
...problem is, it applies in reverse. So if you scavenge a battlefield, and amass a pile of AK-47s (or whatever), and sell them, you're Bill Gates, and indeed, it never stops being profitable to do that sort of thing. If you're a billionare, you can still get to trillionare status by selling piles of wealth DC 18 items.
Is there any reason whatsoever why the Magic Number 15 should be kept?
The most common fix for this problem is to create a relative threshold instead of an absolute one. Don't use PDC 15 as the magic number where you lose Wealth, but instead make it, say, 50% in excess of your current Wealth, or +10 your current Wealth, or something like that (whatever floats your boat).
The problem this leaves, however, is exploits whereby a single character can make herself disgustingly Wealthy and then be the bankroll for a whole team. To this I say, so what? If that's one character's "super power" then let them have it. There's plenty of precedent for it TV, fiction, and comics. One person's power is ass-kicking, someone else's is aerobatics, someone else's is a Uranium Express Card with no limit.
Does that address your question?
Deinos:
First off, the DC 15 threshold has nothing to do with realism. Even taking into account that the Wealth bonus is just an abstraction it really makes no sense, for the reasons you mentioned.
The effect, however, is that it makes essential purchases significant to the character. For the adventuring PC, the difference between being unarmed and having a laser rifle is definitely worth a point of Wealth bonus. And having a back-up laser rifle in case the other one is lost, well if you feel you need it it's probably worth another wealth point.
It doesn't matter if your character's status is on par with a blue-collar worker living from pay-check to pay-check, or as wealthy as the astro-pope himself: The benefit of simply having a laser rifle is the same. And that's what you pay for.
Second, the Wealth bonus system isn't all that realistic in the first place. To wit: If your Wealth bonus is +14 or higher it is impossible to go broke on a single purchase. At Wealth bonus +14, a purchase with DC 34 (your highest achievable purchase check) will cost you 2d6+1 points of Wealth bonus, max 13. Your Wealth simply can't be translated into a "monetary" value by means of purchase DCs.
-DF
Selling stuff:
If you have a problem with players collecting a lot of stuff and selling them for sweet sweet wealth bonus, you might want to introduce a "Sell check" on par with the Wealth check used to buy stuff.
Simply put: Since you need to pass a Wealth check in order to make a purchase, you have to fail a wealth check to make a sale. Figure out the purchase DC of the items the character wants to sell (remember to apply the "used items" penalty of -3, but add the "bonus" for selling restricted items 
) and have the PC make a Wealth check. The character can "take 10" or "take 20" as normal: The character is assumed to have rolled 11 or 1, respectively.
There are many ways to justify a "failed sell", the simplest being that the money the character earned from the sale he put into long-term investment (or even used to pay off his credit card bills), in effect it doesn't improve his immediate buying power. Or perhaps there was no demand for the items (at least not at the character's asking price).
Time:
Even if you don't call for a Wealth check to sell stuff, you can at least require the characters to spend time selling off the items. This is typically 1 hour per point of Purchase DC, same as for buying stuff. Sure, collecting a hundred purchase DC 20 items from the battlefield sounds like a great sell, but it's going to take 2 000 hours to sell them all.
-DF
The Wealth score is supposed to tell you what you can afford without problem:
Jimmy the Squeeler with Wealth7 has a hard time swinging a PDC10,
while BigAl or I with Wealth12 have no problem making a PDC10 purchase.
Wealth takes care of the 3copper Ale purchases for a 10th level character,
it is so inconsequential we just gloss those minor purchases over as Below Wealth.
Wealth sets the point at which purchases are no longer inconsequential.
But it does is poorly in RAW.
While a PDC7 Espressomachine is no big deal for me or BigAl,
Jimmy would have to check the couch for coins to come up with that PDC7
... PDC7 is minor for BigAl but a major purchase for Jimmy.
OK so far.
But when we get to folks making over $100k,
the Wealth system in RAW would allow rich folks to have more cool stuff than poor folks
... because they can buy a Toyota as easily as BigAl buys a 'Spressomachine.
Maybe it takes a weeks pay for BigAl to buy a Rifle,
it takes a weeks pay for Jimmy to buy a toasteroven,
and it takes a weeks pay for the AstroPope or BillGates to buy an ArelighBurkDestroyer.
If it takes a weeks pay (aka 'over Wealth#'), you lose A wealth point.
If it takes more than that it costs more wealth points,
if it takes less, then you dont lose a wealth point.
Sounds ok, right?
Wrong.
It unfairly lets rich characters have more cool stuff than poor characters.
So, in the name of Artificial Game Balance,
we slap a no-reason penalty for SOME characters to buy things below their wealth,
while allowing other characters to buy an infinate number of things below their wealth
... see how fair that is ;)
One cannot apply a fixed PDC as to what is a major purchase:
A toasteroven is a major purchase for Jimmy,
while a Toyota is not a major purchase for rich Princess or Billygates.
Like Orion said,
set the penalty PDC limit in reference to the buyers Wealth,
like a % of it or +10 or something
so the guy may be out buying airplane after airplane,but the others are leveling up
the time required by the system is very very important to the system,
but it is very very abused,
and very very artificial
It does take time to buy stuff,
it takes Billygates exactly 1 round to shout
"I want a silver lexus in my driveway by the time I get back from lunch. Here is $200k, make it happen."
Way too frequently we hear
Players: "We spend 3 weeks doing nothing while Carlos heals and John buys stuff"
GM: "OK, its 3weeks later"
Those examples of ignoring time are the least negative consequences of ignoring the rule, too. That's not to say that you're wrong. Just to say that you're not pointing out the worst offences. Downtime is downtime. I'm okay with that, but making the player do the math? That makes a difference! Also, enforcing those shopping rules during a game is very important. If there's last-minute equipment that they need for an ambush or what have you, then it's extremely important to say "The only way to get that is to spend all night on-line finding the right piece, and then you have to find a store that carries it, so you don't get any sleep and you're at a -2 until you can nap." If GMs don't go out of their way to enforce the time limits, then Wealth totally falls apart.
I gotta say, the PDC 15 rule is arbitrary and dumb, but the rest of the system works quite well if you actually follow the rules. 90% of the complaints I've seen about it were from people who didn't thoroughly read the rules. That might point to a ruleset that's needlessly complicated, but still, it's mostly quite sound.
The Wealth score is supposed to tell you what you can afford without problem:
Actually, the Wealth system allows characters to acquire items of equipment without the player having to micromanage the character's economy. A cash system would probably be more realistic, of course, but it's open to different kinds of abuse, most notably "d20 accounting" in which the player delves into the real-world mechanics of credits, investments and all manner of crap.
Do you think it's tiresome balancing your budget, doing your taxes and keeping up to date with your stock portfolio? Well, imagine if time was sped up and you had to do that all the time. Then imagine you're the GM and you need to simulate local and global economical developments. I'd rather have to deal with a player wanting to abuse the Wealth system.
It unfairly lets rich characters have more cool stuff than poor characters.
So, in the name of Artificial Game Balance,
we slap a no-reason penalty for SOME characters to buy things below their wealth,
while allowing other characters to buy an infinate number of things below their wealth
... see how fair that is ;)
One cannot apply a fixed PDC as to what is a major purchase:
A toasteroven is a major purchase for Jimmy,
while a Toyota is not a major purchase for rich Princess or Billygates.
Like Orion said,
set the penalty PDC limit in reference to the buyers Wealth,
like a % of it or +10 or something
I'm not sure whether or not you're ecstatic about how great the purchase DC 15 threshold is or not, but I'm gonna bet that you don't like it.
As a rule of thumb: If it's worth noting on your character sheet then it's worth paying for.
Regardless of whether or not the character appreciates these items as a major acquisition or not, the fact remains that many of the items above the purchase threshold have a significant effect on the game. Regardless of whether or not this is the designers' intent, this is one effect of the purchase DC threshold: the player needs to weight the cost of taking a hit to his Wealth bonus up against the benefit of his character possessing that item.
If you need to decide if the purchase is significant to the character, compare Wealth bonus to purchase DC. If that's all you want, the best thing is probably to skip the purchase DC threshold altogether.
Sure you can make a "purchases at DC equal to or greater than Wealth bonus minus X" rule, but that's really just an extension of the purchase DC vs. Wealth mechanic. You lose the threshold effect. Well, it's really only a loss if you miss it.
-DF
What is considered 'expensive' to one character simply may not be 'expensive' to another.
It has nothing to do with a fixed PDCX as 'expensive no matter how much money you have'.
Whether or not pdcX is expensive,
depends SOLELY on who is buying it, not how much X is.
Trying to punish rich folks for using the same rules as poor folks is just socialism.
If a Wealth14 guy can spend just time to buy infinite PDC14 items,
then a Wealth32 can do the same with PDC32 items,
and Jimmy with wealth7 does the same with PDC7 items
Princess had to forgo a lot of combat ability to be that rich,
and now you want to punish her for choosing to role play a debutant rather than an impoverished grunt
I'd also propbably allow the base number to have different levels; the same way the game describes allowing for different massive damage thrsholds. This way you could play a game that is poor (base 8), average (base 12), or rich (base 16); and it would allow simulations of different eras/environs. Consider the added authenticity of using the poor base for a game set during the great depression.
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Trying to punish rich folks for using the same rules as poor folks is just socialism.
This statement is so inaccurate on so many levels that it would take me days to catalogue its spurious assumptions and fallacious logic. Suffice it to say that it's wildly off-topic, regardless.
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If I were going to assign the threshold, I would tie it to a character's Profession skill.
Trying to punish rich folks for using the same rules as poor folks is just socialism.
If a Wealth14 guy can spend just time to buy infinite PDC14 items, then a Wealth32 can do the same with PDC32 items, and Jimmy with wealth7 does the same with PDC7 items Princess had to forgo a lot of combat ability to be that rich, and now you want to punish her for choosing to role play a debutant rather than an impoverished grunt
You are complaining that "high Wealth" characters are being "punished" but I don't see it. Your Wealth +14 guy and your Wealth +30 guy can both buy as many purchase DC 14 items they could possibly want or need without taking a hit to their wealth.
I really don't see how your Wealth 30 guy is being punished when buying purchase DC 15-through-30 items. Certainly he can acquire a far greater number of these items than the Wealth 14 guy.
I'll agree that it's a bit odd that the Wealth 30 guy's loss of Wealth bonus is the same for both purchase DC 15 and DC 30 - perhaps the system is missing multiple threshold levels to account for this quirk. Maybe purchase DC 30 should incur an automatic loss of 2 points of Wealth bonus instead of just the one.
And socialism is bad? I'm tempted to discuss that, but I'll pass.
-DF
you wouldnt mind the arbitrary "expensive" point being at PDC10.
Cause Jimmy considers that a fair and just place to put that punitive "expensive" line.
Seeing as he has a Wealth7,
he figures the fatcats with wealths 10 or more should be hamstrung down a peg or two
when they make lavish purchases like PDC10.
There.
A win-win:
You get to have an arbitrary wealth hit against rich folks buying expensive (pdc10) stuff,
and I get to demonstrate that "rich" and "expensive" are relative.
Jimmy would whole heartedly agree to punish rich (Wealth10) folks buying expensive PDC10 stuff.
Heck, he dont see anything wrong with sticking it to them well-to-do Wealth8 snobs too.... set the punitive wealth hit to be at 'expensive' PDC8 purchases.
However, Princess says 'expensive' is around PDC26.
And BigAl says "expensive' is like PDC13.
But Jimmy keeps swearing up & down that PDC8 is 'expensive'.
So, who's right?
They all are.
PDC8 is not expensive for BigAl or Princess, but it IS expensive for Jimmy.
PDC13 is not expensive for Princess or Billygates, but it is for BigAl
The reason Princess wears $500 shoes, a $300 purse, and a $2700 dress,
is because when you are rich, those items are not expensive
... yet you would ping her wealth 3 points every time she drives down Rodeo
because poor folks cant afford the clothes she wears and you want to punish her for it
So, who's right?
They all are.
PDC8 is not expensive for BigAl or Princess, but it IS expensive for Jimmy.
PDC13 is not expensive for Princess or Billygates, but it is for BigAl
The reason Princess wears $500 shoes, a $300 purse, and a $2700 dress,
is because when you are rich, those items are not expensive
... yet you would ping her wealth 3 points every time she drives down Rodeo
because poor folks cant afford the clothes she wears and you want to punish her for it
It's pretty rare that Stabby and I agree on something, but this is one of those cases. What is or is not expensive is directly tied to the item's price as a percent of your income. For some people, a toaster is a major appliance purchase; while others can buy computers and plasma tvs without thinking twice. The DC 15 wealth point loss is clearly arbitrary and is thus a bad rule. If you must have an expensive item threshold, then it should scale with the character's wealth bonus or their ability to generate wealth (one example of which is the aforementioned Profession skill, though Gambling could also work for a professional gambler).
Seems if you are in favor of taking wealth away for buying expensive things,
you wouldnt mind the arbitrary "expensive" point being at PDC10.
Sure, but I don't see any reason to stick with the default value. It's a matter of personal preference: Purchase DC 10 seems a bit low and purchase DC 20 seems a bit too high after my taste. Purchase DC 15 is a nice number: easy to remember and it covers a lot of high-end equipment and tools.
-DF
You said "Wealth +10: you can't afford anything that's PDC 21 or greater". At +10 Wealth, a character can afford to lose 10 Wealth before being unable to purchase something. By your chart (where it says that a PDC of "Wealth +21 or more = +/- 10"), that means the character could purchase any item he can make the Purchase DC check for (maximum of +10 Wealth + a die result of 20 = PDC 30 or less).
Other than that, it seems fine.
That's how I understand the system, anyway. That Wealth score is really supposed to stand in for all the vagueries of the modern economic system so that players and GMs don't have to deal with crap like loans and credit.
That's how I understand the system, anyway. That Wealth score is really supposed to stand in for all the vagueries of the modern economic system so that players and GMs don't have to deal with crap like loans and credit.
That is also my understanding. After-all, if it doesn't account for that stuff, why even have the wealth system when you could just track hard cash?
So the next question for me, just to come back to the topic of the thread, is this: are there any more major loopholes in this rule system that anyone can see? I hope we've gotten them all. With judicious application of the "Don't Be A Douchebag" rule, it should work okay.
So the next question for me, just to come back to the topic of the thread, is this: are there any more major loopholes in this rule system that anyone can see? I hope we've gotten them all. With judicious application of the "Don't Be A Douchebag" rule, it should work okay.
For the most part; I think our fixes solve all the issues I had with the system.
Just for my edification. I have seen a player with a Wealth of 8, at character creation, purchase a crapload of DC 8 goods for later resale (for the purpose of raising up his Wealth bonus). I must confess that I don't see this as being particularly abusive. If anything, the character is just trying to run a home business as a second job. Given the time constraints of a full-time job, sleep, and adventuring, the character is unlikely to have enough free time to sell enough goods for this to be an issue. Do you consider this behaviour a violation of the DBAD rule?
First, used goods fetch at best their full PDC -3. If they're black-market goods, they fetch 50% of PDC. Therefore, there's no mathematical way you can work you way back up to a previous Wealth score by reselling previously purchased goods. That's the RAW.
Second, why waste all that time and energy on manipulating the Wealth system when she could just take some ranks in Profession? If that's the character's job, or even just her side job, then the Profession role should take care of it. It's as if players just get off on trying to make Wealth do things it's not supposed to.
Third, even if all of that were legal/appropriate, as you say, all that buying and selling takes up a lot of time. If the player acknowledged that time and made a sincere effort to track it, then it wouldn't bother me, but points 1 and 2 make point 3 moot.
This is a great example of not reading the rules, missing the point, and being a teensy bit of a douche, although probably not maliciously.
First, used goods fetch at best their full PDC -3. If they're black-market goods, they fetch 50% of PDC. Therefore, there's no mathematical way you can work you way back up to a previous Wealth score by reselling previously purchased goods. That's the RAW.
That is actually my point as to why it really doesn't break the system. All it does is allow you to restore your Welath bonus to three less than it was before. So the character I mentioned with a Wealth of +8, could then (after making some sales) restore their Wealth to +5 at the most.
Second, why waste all that time and energy on manipulating the Wealth system when she could just take some ranks in Profession? If that's the character's job, or even just her side job, then the Profession role should take care of it. It's as if players just get off on trying to make Wealth do things it's not supposed to.
Unless I missed a rule somewhere, Profession only helps you increase your Wealth at character creation and when you level. Selling used goods allows you to earn Wealth between level-ups, which is useful for covering medical care for injuries and auto repair from vehicular combat.
Third, even if all of that were legal/appropriate, as you say, all that buying and selling takes up a lot of time. If the player acknowledged that time and made a sincere effort to track it, then it wouldn't bother me, but points 1 and 2 make point 3 moot.
I agree that the player must account for the time spent selling the items (1 hour per point of the sale PDC). This means the aforementioned character would spend 5 hours for each item (which can be reduced to one hour per weekday if you sell one item weekly). This translates into about one item sold per adventure, which I feel is not breaking or abusing the system. But you are right that the time required for sale must be enforced. If you don't, you would also run into the problem of PCs trying to sell equipment taken from fallen enemies; which is more abusive to the system than the buy and sell method (IMO).
Yeah, that does kinda sorta fly in the face of logic. But if we institute your misreading/house rule, I think we take care of the problem. You can't ever make a purchase that would take your Wealth to a negative number. In that case, you simply can't afford it. So let's take this for a test drive. Here's the new costing scale:
Wealth +1 = +/- 1
Wealth +5 = +/- 2
Wealth +10 = +/- 4
Wealth +15 = +/- 6
Wealth +20 = +/- 8
Wealth +21 or more = +/- 10
I just noticed something about the new costing scale. The entry "Wealth +20 = +/- 8" only covers purchases of a single DC (your Wealth +20); while the others all cover 4 DCs (Wealth +1 to +4; or Wealth +5 to +9; etc). The issue is the last line of the cost scale which butts in on the entry directly above it.
Wealth +1 - +4 = +/- 1
Wealth +5 - +9 = +/- 2
Wealth +10 - 14 = +/- 4
Wealth +15 - +19 = +/- 6
Wealth +20 - +24= +/- 8
Wealth +25 or more = +/- 10
Oh yeah. Thank gods you're here to point out my mistakes! Here's a corrected version:
Wealth +1 - +4 = +/- 1
Wealth +5 - +9 = +/- 2
Wealth +10 - 14 = +/- 4
Wealth +15 - +19 = +/- 6
Wealth +20 - +24= +/- 8
Wealth +25 or more = +/- 10
I hope that's not the only thing I'm contributing to the discussion, but I'm glad to help. Honestly, I only took a second look at it because I was copying it to a word document (so I could print it up and slip it in my Modern book).