Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 stplong1981 Jul 24, 2009 0:14:00	Okay, without discussing the massive flaws of d20 Future (I'm aware of em, but think I can work with em) the big thing my campaign setting relies on is interstellar trade and profit. Problem is, I've never seen a really good supplemental or home brew for cargo hauling player characters. Like how to keep the economy fresh etc etc. Any tips or links?
#2 narukagami Jul 24, 2009 0:26:37	Maybe vary the wealth awards based on how "in demand" their cargo is. It could keep them hopping around to different planets and systems as what they're hauling may be more valuable in one place than it is another. "20 tons of Moonjuice, eh? Well, if we dump it off at the nearest station we can pull in some decent cash, or we can make a few jumps to Ceta 1277 and sell it off for twice the price the locals here will give us!" You could tie knowing what to take where with various knowledge skills. Like Knowledge (popular culture) to know if your current haul of whatever is the latest fad in some systems. Or Current Events to know that someplace has a shortage of the certain thing you happen to have, so will easily be convinced to pay exorbitant prices for it. Gather Information could also be used to find buyers. Ect.
#3 stplong1981 Jul 24, 2009 0:37:15	I honestly hadn't thought of integrating skills, shows how primative the approach is atm. I do like the idea, its definitely a helpful start. I had originally considered a listing of items (generalities, like common ore, specialty ore, booze, guns, agri gear, etc) and a whole heap of tables to roll for random supply/demand.
#4 herbert_west Jul 25, 2009 6:07:10	I started making a system for space trade, although I had completely forgotten about it till just now. You can find it here. It could maybe give you some ideas. It kinda makes me wish I had finished it aswell.
#5 stplong1981 Jul 25, 2009 8:49:15	thanks Herbert, I'll make sure to post whatever I come up with.
#6 stplong1981 Jul 25, 2009 10:57:03	What I've got so far (its a WALL of Text, so beware): The general idea is a mixture of Firefly and Eve Online. Rather than creating linear story lines and campaign arcs, the players decide where they are going. As a result, all money is made by trading (The percentages seem high, but don't forget, you need to deduct a lot to buy new cargo and keep a ship flying). The story arcs can still occur, but the GM just needs to be more open minded. For example if you wanted a creepy derelict on the way to Alpha 1, but the players go to Ceti 4, just change the story to suit. Below is my basic line entry for all of the general items that will be part of the campaign setting (thank you to Herbert_West for inspiring this bit). The two are just examples, I've got a big list of stuff to work on. Perecentages for Trade Gain go from PL2 on the left to PL8 on the right (my campaign setting is a PL8 level). All percentages are open to alteration by the GM of course, because not every PL8 society will want Grain (or agri-machinery) and not every PL2,3,4 society has anyone rich enough to buy and use Holos and Vids. I'm going to use a basic unit value of a tonne since most ships in the D20 Future book (and most created by users) use even tonnes for capacity. Some items, however, such as drugs, alcohol, vids, exotic fruits, and others are smaller units, and can be stored almost anywhere on ship, consider them exotic goods that can hide in a closet. As nurkagami recommended, I've integrated some skill checks to my proof of concept. Diplomacy checks against a predetermined DC can save the Player 5% on purchases, and possibly increase profit by 5% (DC checks to be figured out later). Knowledge (Current Events) can give players insight into upcoming conflicts, weather problems, etc (think anything we can learn from the news) and give the Crew access to some great markets. Knowledge (Popular Culture) can also be great for putting a finger on the next fashionable fad on a distant planet (narukagami, thanks big time for this idea). All I really have left to this idea is creating a table for randomised markets. The Setting uses Jump Gates (again, think Eve Online) where a system might have five gates going to and from other systems. For a given Game Session, I want to be able to detail general market knowledge for systems in the local sector, as if the data is streaming across some intersystem network. So the crew knows they are on Alpha 1 which is selling x,y,z,q,r,s and knows that Beta 2, Ceti 4, Gamma 3, and Omega 1 want whatever they want. Lets them buy stuff, pick a destination, and on the way story happens. I figured I'd create categories, with d100 rolls to randomly select items from the lists, then assign them to the various systems/planets. Of course, as a planet is added to the campaign universe, I'd restrict some items from those lists (For example a mining colony on an asteroid won't be buying metals, nor grains, but might want to buy booze and sell raw ore). Any ideas for a good way to organise the chart? All info would be great, thanks so far. Example Line Entry: Product: Grains/Seed Base Value (per Tonne): 1000Cr Trade Gain (in percent): 175:150:125:115:105:5:5 Data: Grains and Seed are vital commodities in growing settlements, they are needed to feed livestock and plant crops. Product: Holos/Vids/Media Base Value (per unit): 50Cr Trade Gain (in percent): 250:200:150:115:125:150:160 Data: videos, music, television recordings or video games, any form of digital entertainment. Trade Supplies (so far): Gold, Platinum, Silver, Copper, Cobalt, Iron, Scrap Metal, Industrial Waste, Human/Animal Waste, Grain/Seed, Fruits/Vegetables, Meats, Exotic Fruits/Vegetables, Coffee, Tea, Sugar, Tobacco, Vega Weed, Fertilizer, Lumber, TExtiles, agri-machinery, Computer Components, Small Vehicle Parts, Small Vehicles, Residential Appliances, Shipside Components, Hull Components, Engine Components, Tools (powered and unpowered), Refinery Components, Bulk Parts (wire, nails...), Polymers, Superconductors, Hydrocarbons, Optronics, Terraforming Gases, Pharmaceuticals, Wine, Rare Liquors, Furs, Software (various), Gems, Paintings, Sculpture, Religious Iconogaphy, Holos/Vids/Media, Early Sol Artefacts, Blue Spice (think STar Wars), True (Thule) Spice, Weapons (Personal), Weapons (NBC), Hacker Gear, Slaves, Cybernetics, Bio-engineered parts, "Alien" Artefeacts.
#7 nobodez_here Jul 26, 2009 9:51:24	Well, you've obviously taken the idea of "cheap interstellar travel" as the core of your campaign. Otherwise it'd be cheaper to just create most items on-world. So, just create the worlds like you would nations, a list of what they import and what they export. Also of note is what kind of FTL drive you're using. Trading in grain means nothing if it takes a year to get from point A to point B. Oh, and as for the cargo in tons thing, well, remember that a 1 meter cube of water has a mass of 1000 kg, or about a ton. So, a 50 ton cargo capacity is 50 cubic meters. But, also note that one of the reasons things are measured in tons is that it takes energy to move in space, and the more mass you have, the more energy it takes to move it from planet to planet. That 50 tons might not be because of volume but mass. Oh, and a standard shipping container (8x8.5x20 feet) is rated at a payload of 21,000 kg (21 metric tons). That's for dry goods. More shipping container information.
#8 stplong1981 Jul 26, 2009 10:42:46	thanks, good info all. I'll see how I can use it to help a second draft
#9 stplong1981 Jul 26, 2009 21:49:04	I've been doing more work, and have a few responses for ya nobodez. I definitely see your point (to be honest, my mind totally skipped over travel times in relation to the game mechanics) so I agree that even with the fastest FTL, it'd take awhile to travel from system to system (easily overcome, of course, by a few house rules or some cleaver GMing). I do agree I should create a static listing of planets and systems, with fairly static import/export charts. I suppose that I don't want it to be that static. I was mostly looking for a way to randomise things, take the decision of some items out of my hands and throw them to the fates. But that gets a lot easier now that I'm taking your advice re: static import/exports, so thanks. As far as seed or other organics going bad, well, if we can accept FTL, spaceships in general, and colonies on distant worlds, I don't think its a far stretch to assume our methods for preserving organics has imporved. And not all planets can make things "on-world." My fault for explaining some of more core ideas. Mostly, I don't picture a colonial system where its that bright and happy. I figure whoever colonises a planet is tossing folks and minimal materials on, and praying it works, like we usually do with distant colonization. By that logic, no not everything is made on world, no matter the cost, there is always something to import, and always at least one buyer. Thats all, thanks for the help thus far everyone, keep it coming. I've got less than a month to show off the setting and want the big stuff to be perfect.
#10 Cyber-Dave Jul 27, 2009 10:29:13	Ok, I don't know if you will like this idea, but it is an honest suggestion: if you want something like an EVE online feel to the game, my assumption is that you will be including lots of encounters on a starship scale. Obviously, as you stated you are running a sci-fi world, you are planning on playing a science fiction game. Do yourself a serious favor, drop d20 Modern and d20 Future. Instead, go purchase a copy of Star Wars Saga, and put the time and effort you will inevitably spend into trying to get d20 Modern/Future to work well (especially in the area of starship and vehicular rules) into refluffing the Star Wars mechanics (which already work well, even in the areas of starship and vehicular combat) into the setting you want to run. You might still need to write a few house rules, but the amount of house rules will be far-FAR smaller. I spent a horridly large amount of time trying to get d20 Modern to work the way I wanted it to for my sci-fi setting (which is also influenced by EVE, by the way). I purchased the Star Wars Saga book just to see if there were any rules I wanted to plunder for my home brew Modern game. In the end, I realized that I was better off doing it the other way around. Now I use Saga as the base system for my setting, and I plunder rules from Modern (for example, I sometimes choose to use the wealth system, and the d20 Cyberscape rules are heavily integrated into my setting. I have also converted some of the d20 Future Advanced classes into SAGA prestige classes). I find the result is a far better setting (mechanically speaking). If you want to see an example of what I am talking about, check out the Land of Nod link in my signature. It is my personal home brew sci-fi setting. It was influenced by EVE (among many other things). Originally, it was supposed to be a d20 Modern setting. I have found that it works much better as a refluffed (and slightly retooled) SAGA setting (that has nothing to do with Star Wars).
#11 stplong1981 Jul 27, 2009 15:46:55	thanks Dave, I'll have a look. I'm finding d20 future easy to retool thus far, but to be honest, my trade system doesn't steal heavily from the rules. You might be right that down the road I'd face some big issues
#12 Cyber-Dave Jul 27, 2009 16:14:16	The concept of your trade system is pretty much system neutral. It has some minor toss outs to d20 gaming in general (in terms of the skill checks), but that is it. It would fit in equally well with Saga as it does with Modern. Where you will run into problems is in the areas of vehicles and vehicular combat, as well as the logic of d20 Future equipment stating in comparison to the stats of the equipment of earlier progress levels. Depending on your preferences, you might also run into some major problems in terms of trying to keep combat actually feeling lethal (because eventually, the MAS/Con save system becomes something of a joke) or alternatively becoming too lethal (because house rules to the MAS/Con save system tend to make the system too lethal, often resulting in outright/near deaths due to bad rolls as opposed to bad decisions on the part of the players). Saga's condition track system makes for a nice "feels lethal" while not often resulting in "one hit kills." Also, the SAGA character creation system allows for more variety in characters, so that is a nice perk as well. But the real deal breaker, the one that made me switch to Saga, was its far superior vehicles and vehicular combat rules. When you are trying to run a game with potential EVE like play, you want good vehicular rules. d20 Future just doesn't have them. Saga does. You might still need to make some slight changes/perform the good old DM hand wave of fiat when dealing with some capital ship scale mixed with starfighter scale affairs, but the issues are very minor compared with the d20 Future system, and relatively easy to fix/avoid. The d20 Future vehicular system doesn't work at all, at any scale, without very heavy rules modifications.
#13 stplong1981 Jul 27, 2009 17:03:48	I won't lie Dave, as soon as I read your first entry I got in touch with afriend who has the saga core book, I'm actually reading it now. I totally see where you are coming from, and I definitely think SAGA is the place to go. I'll have to homebrew several classes, skills, and feats, but most of my work so far (the trade system, whose skills can port over, and a weapons/gadgets customisation tool) is neutral or can easily be altered. Thanks for the heads up, where do I go to post a SAGA homebrew campaign setting?
#14 Cyber-Dave Jul 27, 2009 19:29:36	The Saga system homebrew rules forum can be found here: http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=80 . Its the forum where I posted my own setting (The Land of Nod) in. As for gadgets in the Saga rules, check out the Scum and Villainy book for the Saga system. It has a fully integrated gadget system for the Saga system (which works a good sight better than the gadget system in d20 Future). Likewise, I suggest you check out the Starships of the Galaxy book for the Saga rules. It has some expansion rules surrounding the Saga vehicular/starship combat rules which really fleshes the system out and allows for (more) interesting starship scale encounters. It doesn't really give you a good system for building ships from scratch, but I find that by taking existing starship stat blocks and refluffing them/making slight alterations to them as needed you can create any sort of starship you want. I look forward to seeing your work on your setting, and be sure to check out the Land of Nod. As its a similar project to what you say you will be working on, you might find stuff in there you want to plunder for your own setting. Specifically, if I were you I would take a look at my "Modifying the Star Wars Saga Rules for the Land of Nod" and "Modifying the Star Wars Saga Starship Rules for the Land of Nod" sections. The Starship rules were written specifically to get more of an EVE feel to starship combat. The regular modifications I wrote to make the game feel more like a standard/slightly gritty sci-fi as opposed to Star Wars.
#15 stplong1981 Jul 27, 2009 21:16:56	yeah been looking at your stuff in between pay work lol. I dunno if I'll "plunder" as much as be inspired, but either way you sir, shall see some credit. As far as building starships, I'm planning on hashing some stuff out based on the d20 mecha nad Future Tech stuff, they have vehicular design systems, and I think I can use em. I know some of my players are big fans of that sort of self-perpetuating campaign setting, where they're as much as creator as a player (hence the need to let them build gadgets). Weapon design is a no-brainer, I've seen so many different threads on home brew weapons and armor its sick, but yeah, d20 content is gonna feed a now growing list of home brew rules for my setting. Hope you enjoy what's coming, especially since it will be a fairly gritty universe.
#16 Cyber-Dave Jul 27, 2009 21:26:24	The Starships of the Galaxy book has rules in it for players creating starships. It doesn't let you replicate all the starship stat blocks in the book, but it does let players create balanced starships from scratch. With a little homebrew you can probably bolster that system into something more robust, if you wish to do so. Scum and Villainy has some awesome rules on weapon modification/construction. Hope that stuff helps. Good luck!
#17 stplong1981 Jul 27, 2009 21:33:36	seen a sampling on the SaV content, definitely stoked about that. Also seen a smattering of SotG content. It looks as if it's a little restrictive. From what I can see you base your ship on previous stock models (so Freight model 2 or something) I felt the d20 starship/mecha constructions were really wide open. But as with any system mod, it'll probably be an integration. We'll find out soon, this weekend I'm picking up those two books
#18 Cyber-Dave Jul 27, 2009 21:47:19	When you say d20 Starship/Mecha construction, do you mean the rules in d20 Future by WotC, or do you mean the 3rd party product by a similar name?
#19 stplong1981 Jul 27, 2009 23:47:53	third party, similar name. saw it in someone's sig recently, really liked it
#20 Cyber-Dave Jul 28, 2009 0:05:46	I see. Well, personally, I prefer using the Star Wars Saga vehicle system. I really like the way they modeled vehicle stats and vehicular combat. But, whatever works for you! Its your setting. Unless you have some specific questions, I think I have given about all the help/advice I can. I hope I have been helpful... Good luck with the setting. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.