[Linky-Dinky]
Don't get me wrong, I did my dissection in HS and didn't have a problem with it (nor do I have a problem with it now), but it's really educational to actually be able to see the stuff inside while it's working.
Neato.
I never said it was a good replacement for dissection. I said it was educational to see the working organs.
It's not hyperbole. The article specifically mentions a call for humane alternatives to dissection. Of course higher education is a different animal (ha!) than HS, but a step is a step. Do you honestly think the groups asking for sims and translucent skinned animals will give college level dissections a pass because future doctors may be performing them?
But yeah, I do think that college dissections are a ways off from being removed. I think HS dissections are moving into the past, and I don't have a great opinion on whether that's good or not.
I think that the fish is neat, and that's about it. It's awesome that people can observe what's inside without having to cut it open or a complicated process. Though I am disturbed at any "designer animals", but that's just part and parcel of humans - we've been "designing animals" for a long time. *shrug*
It doesn't make me worry at all about the competence. While I respect the whole "experience" thing, it doesn't bother me in the least. Dissection is a part of the process now, but things change and if there is a better way to do things, I'm all for it. I'm not saying that this way is better, but I'm willing to give it a shot. It's what science is all about, really. If they find a better way to do it through this, then awesome. If not, then use what works.
See through frogs would probably be more educational than our no longer living amphibian friends were.
I also have no problem whatesoever with dissection. We eat animals, people. That's a use for human gain - as is dissection. In the case of the second, you're 'feeding' the mind. These things are neat and do have a use. But they ain't any kind of replacement.
I don't have a problem with dissection either. I'm just saying the limited use we got out of seeing the organs, could have been better served by just lookin at a see through animal.
Yes. There are certainly certain cases that would be better served with see-through critters. Personally I still think dissection is an immensely valuable tool - even in the case you described from your experience. You got to see things that you would not have been able to see even with a see-through hopper. Still, there is a use for thes buggers. And they're damned cool, too.
I didn't dissect a frog in biology class in HS; my class carved open baby hogs that had a strong embalming fluid stench...
Nice. Were I to have taken a certain Bio course in college, I'd have dissected a shark. As it was, during orientation I was able to see current students doing exactly that. It was cool.
I don't get the opportunity to smell a carrion very often. I do however remember the distinct smell of a moose's stomach exploding after we gutted it. Damn did that stink...
Live dissection is vivisection, btw. Fairly barbaric in most spheres of influence, mine as well.
FYI: Skinny Puppy, during their Vivisect tour in my hometown, circa ’88; when not extolling the virtues of psychedelic warfare, nature’s revenge, and the like, they are terribly socio-politically minded (chem. weapons, voter fraud, human rights, etc). Of which, the LP’s namesake should give you a pretty good idea where their sensibilities lie in terms of science vs. cruelty here.
Well, their live shows are truly something to behold, particularly for those in the front ranks (cover your beer, brace yourself), and this tour was no exception. This time, why? “CHUD”, their anatomically correct faux dog they “work w/” in no uncertain terms in addition to screened footage, other window dressing, rather colorful “antics” via performance art, and the like to illustrate their position, in this case being, “vivisection and most animal testing is wrong, let us show you why.” Small taste thereof (music video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A2-jtw3qAI
Enter Cincinnati Sherrifs -> abrupt end of show -> never formally charged, a big F-U basically. They would not play Cincy again till ’04 and I don’t blame them (fascist BS). They tend to have a heavy-handed approach to law enforcement in these parts (read, trigger happy) and you better play ball w/ the powers-that-be. This would later alienate the likes of Maplethorp, N.W.A., 2LiveCrew, Pantera, White Zombie, etc. And for what? We lost millions.
Moving on…
Largely, I am against scientific progress of this nature, but the realist in me understands the necessity for some animals to be tested upon to grant us vaccines, alleviate human suffering, and the like. Okay, I’ll buy that. Monkies will have to die likely if we will beat AIDS. Shampooing a rabbit’s eyes, though, that’s right out. We know how that will end already. In fact, a great deal of this testing is inconclusive, only a legal pre-emptive measure. Profit safeguard, not consumer safeguard is their priority. Most cosmetic testing in general I find frivolous and unethical, of which, they do a Hell of a lot so we can bear to look at our women as aesthetically pleasing objects. Funny that a lot of the more vocal (louder ≠ compelling) PETA advocates (Pam Anderson, may you burn in Hell) in this fashion, for example, use mammoth amounts of animal-tested products. Fashionable charity! Get behind the home team (if you have the time and money).
HS Dissection: I’m for it though. A learning tool that has worked for hundreds (thousands?) of years. There’s a reason they push for it and if it grooms a better surgeon, so be it. You don’t cut corners when building (wo)men that will hold the essence of life in their skillful hands later. If you are a conscientious objector, then I will support/respect that too. It is your right. Research paper or whatever the teacher legitimately thinks will compensate is in order. Watch for the after school special kids!
See-through, though an interesting prospect, isn’t as telling as actual dissection, gross anatomy, what have you. There comes a time when the pursuit of knowledge will conflict w/ personal convictions. Quality vs. quantity I guess if that’s not too simple. If you’re afraid of getting your hands dirty, that’s fine. However, many vocations will ask you to make (your) moral concessions later, so get realistic to foregoing med school.
What kind of moral concessions Ghost? Well... gather 'round children, let me tell you a tale:
Worked @ Ethicon Endosurgery (Johnson & Johnson comp) here in Cincy, where they create, train, and use endoscopic surgical tools (think mini armitures, grabbers and the like that go in a little hole vs. a large invasive incision, bla bla bla) in addition to hosting medical lectures from famous surgeons and the like. They do a lot of good. But how?
Essentially, this place is massive admin buildings, R&D, and a little scary place discretely hidden away in the west wing called the vivarium. You enter from an incredibly opulent lounge made to illicit future sales from visiting hospital reps, thousand dollar chairs, giant plasma TVs (this was ’01 btw), lush wet bars, full net access, whatever you want, etc. Image is priority here…until you que the reinforced mechanical doors. Contrast is like night and day when you enter as the sound of CNN, med lectures and so forth to your East is replaced w/ baying animals and a cacophany of ambient terrors that took me about 2 weeks to get used to.
This place is essentially terrifying to the uninitiated and thoroughly glossed over as well (until you sign your company waiver) in the beginning. Full of pigs, goats, and dogs sold to them by local breeders, it is where the “grunt work” takes place to make these little tools come to fruition.
Long story short (for a change, right?), they anaesthetize said animals, use endoscopic tools on them in an exploratory surgery capacity, and that’s it. Largely humane I guess. Unsure. However, their policy is DNR (do not resuscitate) as it is cheaper to let the animal expire and be shipped off to another scary room called necropsy (autopsy for animals) where they are weighed, studied, and shot full of x-rays. Hence an abundance of radioactive waste in the cold storage featuring enormous laundry carts (with many hooves sticking out) that is also covered in a rather cursory manner during your waiver signing. Oh, you can’t see it, discuss it, or anything, until you sign. It’s left to your imagination, which, I promise you, isn’t as bad as seeing a very clever dog take a shine to you one week and finding him in the deep freeze the next aside vats of biohazardous waste that you work around constantly (and are not insured from). Might I enlighten you to the many forms of pig's blood stain removal from a uniform as well? Why do I always have a radiation tag?
Oh, and here’s the best part: marvel of architectural engineering is the loading bays from the South lot where the animals enter enmass are designed to be flush w/ the building, nearly invisible. This is for more company CYA (as above) in the event picketing takes place (which was often). An unwanted aspect of business as usual. Also part of my job description -> “get rid of them or you’re fired.” Mixed feelings over one’s workplace environ was an understatement. I hadn’t felt that conflicted over an “honest” wage before in my life…
I've no problem with vivisection or dissection. Why not? We raise animals for food. They are a tool - a means to an end. We use them in this capacity every day. There's absolutely no need to worry over tearing one apart to make sure a tool/procedure is going to work properly on people. Unless, of course, you'd like to volunteer for a go in their stead. ;)
Animals are dissected every day for your palate's pleasure. They aren't born in pieces parts, you know. Maybe it's because I'm so used to actually performing this action that I understand it well enough not to care about it. I dunno. What I do know is that I find it silly to worry over killing an animal for study and then to happily order its relative for dinner.
I also want to point out that even you vegetarians aren't off the hook here. The plants that are grown and harvested also provide food and shelter for myriad small critters. When your crop is harvested, a crapton of these cute, fuzzy li'l buggers are bloodily annihilated in the wake of the machinery used to get your food to you. ;)
We are all part of the system. It is in our nature to use tools to improve ourselves. This is reality. It is no more barbaric for us to dissect a bunny to learn about X than it is for a mountain lion to keep a captured and wounded bunny alive for its babies to learn to kill with. We need to get over ourselves. We ain't better.
ZmbBbs: I've no problem with vivisection or dissection.
If the act can justify the end, then I will concede that. A better eye-liner does not cut the mustard though EVER. It is wasteful. Said animal would be better spent on a hungry family IMO. Learning how terribly difficult the liver is to locate via dissection often proves valuable though. I would not indulge another pampered buffoon the luxury of looking good alone when the end game is often tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment. The pain is real enough, sentient or no. If said person were to benefit from a new hormone cultivated from ‘x’ (animal) to fight his cancer, so be it.
ZB: We raise animals for food. They are a tool - a means to an end. We use them in this capacity every day.
The tool is the farming or butchery, not the animal. That is the product/end. When you cease to classify a life form as exactly that, you lose a wealth of understanding and knowledge that might be gleaned from it, be it from dissection or otherwise. Not trying to pull on heartstrings so much as maintain scientific rigor. We have dominion to be sure, but w/ that concept come reason & respect for that which was given to us to utilize. If we forego those human tenets then what are we? That which is given can be taken away too.
ZB: There's absolutely no need to worry over tearing one apart to make sure a tool/procedure is going to work properly on people. Unless, of course, you'd like to volunteer for a go in their stead.
You are reaching or I have not made my position clear. Either way, it’s bad for both of us. I’m not for tearing down the status quo to sate human sensibilities at the cost of much starvation, lack of adequate clothing, insure innovative medicine (and its tools), and the important things that matter. We test, dissect, and so on to help achieve those ends as is our purview. It is the wasteful, unnecessary, and flippant use of animals in industries that would be better served elsewhere that razzes me. Perhaps you can ID: What if Colt or Remington were mandated by the govt. to turn their foundaries and tooling facilities over to make toasters only? Wasteful? You bet.
ex) Rabbits at Avon reaching the LD50 (lethal doseage @ 50% pop.) of “whatever” are better served (IMO) for breeding to feed the hungry, not insure the hot new look of tomorrow. After its untimely death, it is typically incinerated. I’d figure a hunter such as yourself could appreciate the bounty of a hot meal, furs that could insulate, longer term, more intelligent applications, and so forth it could theoretically provide as alternative, rather than pissing it away in a lab for largely aesthetic (read, wasteful) reasons.
ZB: Animals are dissected every day for your palate's pleasure. They aren't born in pieces parts, you know. Maybe it's because I'm so used to actually performing this action that I understand it well enough not to care about it. I dunno. What I do know is that I find it silly to worry over killing an animal for study and then to happily order its relative for dinner.
You’re overly simplifying it. It isn’t so B/W. The issue is far more complex and is not served well by pigeonholing it for ease of discourse. First, humane slaughter and dissection is often necessary, I understand that, endorse it at times.
Your frequent practice (hunting, butchery) has instilled a sort of rote mentality, which is natural, but that is true of any repeat action. I’m no different either. We are all products of our environment. “Understanding enough not to care” though, is a very dangerous precident you’ve established though. Understanding ≠ caring either always. I’m not talking about empathy either btw. Care and respect are 2 very different things that are in short supply I’ve found of late. Perhaps you will appreciate this. I was not conflicted when I felled a 10-pt buck @ 12 yrs, nor was I went dumping the quarry for the dogs (with hilarious [gross] results). It was explained rationally and w/out agenda. However, when I see perfectly good resources wasted on pretense, ego, the things that do not truly matter, I see red. It is human folly, furthers our degeneration, facilitates apathy and ignorance.
If killed humanely, then dissected to learn a better way for a noble pursuit, then yes, I will back that. Food industries fall in w/ that often, though I disagree w/ a good many of their practices in this capacity. We kill indiscrimately, as is our nature. It is when we kill irresponsibly that we have failed as thinking creatures. However, who is to say what responsibility is in this fashion? I just know I find ire w/ some of it, not all.
ZB:I also want to point out that even you vegetarians aren't off the hook here. The plants that are grown and harvested also provide food and shelter for myriad small critters. When your crop is harvested, a crapton of these cute, fuzzy li'l buggers are bloodily annihilated in the wake of the machinery used to get your food to you.
Not arguing that ever. When confronted by militant types of this ilk, I typically say, “Proof is in the teeth (canines).” I have no illusions about my diet, though I respect and appreciate that their’s is typically the healthier alternative, though I confess that I am probably too weak to adopt it. Meanwhile, I often sigh when I see those beautiful leather shoes they wear that never made it into the conversation apart from the “I’ll kick your ass (with them)!” portion. Again, failure to understand has yielded horrible results.
ZB: We are all part of the system. It is in our nature to use tools to improve ourselves. This is reality. It is no more barbaric for us to dissect a bunny to learn about X than it is for a mountain lion to keep a captured and wounded bunny alive for its babies to learn to kill with. We need to get over ourselves. We ain't better.
I would argue that we are (better). The dominant species is typically the better one, hence its dominance. A blanket statement to be sure of, but I’ll let National Geographic field that one. “Better”? Perhaps not in all venues, but overall, there is no more cunning a predator than we. Evolution, tools, whatever you want to flag. We’re not wild animals. Though I invite you to try your hand at hunting with simply that, your hands, and see who is the better wild animal then.
ex) Crocodile has pretty much maxed out since prehistory. Relatively unchanged after millions of years. W/ just a few thousand years on our chronology though? Well, here we are, top of the food chain (for now). We must never forget where we come from. That old history adage our teachers were so found of saying...that we always forget. Thusly, we forget ourselves and become something "different", though I do not know what. Part of evolution, but not all good.
Not all testing is sound, basically (IMO). A learning tool is good, but are we learning to breed more disease resistant animals for food stocks or are we learning how to protect our **** legally for inconclusive testing when baby 'x' drinks chemical 'y'? Nature would've killed jr. off there due to poor parenting, thusly, that portion of bloodline does not go on. Now, not so much. He'll have plenty to eat surely, but of those other animals that could be feeding him, millions must expire in a vast array of scientific endeavors that are measured only by the sound of law suits.
Though a good measure of it necessary, far too much is to simply accommodate human weakness, sloth, insecurity, not further our bloodline, feed our kids, clothe ourselves, and so forth. My platform is for responsible industry for more jobs/growth, pursuit of acadamia, the increase of our medical knowledge, etc., not the wasteful experiments of ‘x’ to indulge those among us that, ironically, nature would’ve been killed off by natural selection…were it not for the previous responsible uses of our animal resources that have allowed them to live, and sadly, thrive. Damn…I keep thinking of Agent Smith’s diatribe likening humanity to a virus now…look what you did!
F’it. Happy New Year’s to all. And yes, I’ll be eating a generous portion of wings, cheese, and sausage with my beer(s), though I will undoubtedly be too intoxicated to actually appreciate where they come from later.
I probably should have mentioned that I'm in no way for rubbing bunny eyes with mascara and chimp teeth with whitening agents. When I spoke of dissection/vivisection, that's what I was commenting on. Testing something important on an animal makes sense if they're a suitable analog. And no, make-up is not important - though my past ventures into certain clubs and the like make saying that almost a lie.
Believe it or not, I have an incredible respect for animals and take major issue with people that abuse them and those that disregard conservation (hunting) laws. That's among the lowest of the low, IMO. I also have a practical understanding of what I am - an animal - and I keep that in mind when stuff like this comes up. We are what we are and I have no problem participating in my world.
EDIT: Crap. Happy New Year! I will be serving venison summer sausage at my party this evening. Not too much, though. I keeps the good stuff for me and mine. ;)
When they stand in X-Ray machines. I got to see what I look like on the inside when I swallow stuff. That's how I come to find out I done gots what's called that thar acid reflux to what they done considered a small degree. I knows cuz I done seed it myself.
Some of those are fun. Besides the reflux, I DON'T have MVP - what I DO have though is a well-formed valve that happens to leak like a sieve (worse than most with MVP, as it turns out). Nothing like hearing the tech tell you how "blue" is bad, and watching your heart flash entirely blue at every beat.