Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 pbn Jun 06, 2010 1:30:19	This one is a question mainly for the writers among us.  A bit of background: it seems all of my best thoughts have already been thought (though I don't know it at the time).  When I was in school, I had devised a shortcut for finding the GCF (greatest common factor) that was wonderful.  Silly me, thinking I was so smart (at 5, you're allowed to be a little egocentric) - I found out over 30 years later, while reading Euclid's Elementa Geometria (book 1), that the method was already in existence (for millenia, no less ).  Anyway - another favorite of mine is to note that "the stories have all been written", only the names and faces change.  Well, listening to the BBC recently, a writer had commented that "only 16 storylines exist".  So, I decided to see if that were common fact as well.  I couldn't find 16, but I did find the following: According to the Internet Public Library, there are 7 basic stories: [wo]man vs. nature [wo]man vs. man [wo]man vs. the environment [wo]man vs. machines/technology [wo]man vs. the supernatural [wo]man vs. self [wo]man vs. god/religion And according to Ronald Tobias, author of "Twenty Basic Plots", there are 20 quest adventure pursuit rescue escape revenge riddle rivalry underdog temptation metamorphosis transformation maturation love forbidden love sacrifice discovery wretched excess ascension decision Now, though Troy offers wonderful engineering, science, and mathematical programs, the liberal arts and communication requirements are not rigorous for those not in the communications program.  So, my "formal" training in this area is a bit lacking.  For those who have gone that route, what say you?  Is that it?
#2 EscherEnigma Jun 06, 2010 13:15:52	Really outside my field, but it seems a reasonable enough idea.  Just about any story can be broken down to those component elements. But like most things, the trick to being a good writer is making the whole of your piece greater then the sum of the parts.
#3 MechaPilot Jun 06, 2010 13:44:07	The first list is one of conflicts, not actual stories.  Each plot on the second list can then be broken down into one or more of the conflicts on the first list.  What makes stories with the same plot unique from one another is 1) the conflicts that define the plot, 2) the way those conflicts interact and entwine with each other, and 3) the setting it takes place in.  I personally believe that the characters in a story are drawn from a shard of the writer's inner-self (this is at least true in my case).  Assuming this is true for others, though I admit it's just something I believe to be true, one could add this to the above three items: 4) the writer's psyche reflected in the personalities of the characters involved in the conflicts. So in a broad sense, yes, everything has been done before (I think there's even a song to that effect).  I would encourage you not to let this get you down however, as creatively mixing preexisting story elements can create beloved and celebrated works of fiction.  If you need examples of this, everything had been done long before Star Wars and the Lord of the Rings were first penned.  There was even a program on the History Channel that spelled out the preexisting mythical elements that can be found in Star Wars. On a more human level, I would say the reason these conflicts and plots, these story frameworks, get done repeatedly is because they speak to something at the heart of us all.  As a writer, getting an audience to relate to your story and its characters is vitally important to getting them invested in the story.  It does a writer little good if a story is so original readers cannot relate to it.
#4 pbn Jun 06, 2010 14:41:46	Thanks, both, for replying.  It's not "getting me down", I just found it surprising (and I'm not easily surprised).  As stated, I often say that all the stories have been written, but I expected more than just the relative handful there.  Of course, the trouble is that now that I'm aware of this list, rather than doing what I normally do which (ironically enough given the star wars example) is to relate stories I read to various myths and tales I am familiar with, I will now see them with respect to the short list presented. edited: corrected
#5 calronmoonflower Jun 06, 2010 14:52:09	The Hero With a Thousand Faces
#6 death_isthe_begining Jun 06, 2010 15:57:47	The Hero With a Thousand Faces I read the quote "A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man." I find nothing in that statement to be true of Norse mythology. First off there is no real hero. Second the world as a whole goes highly magically to everything with the ability to work magic dying. Third once the big battle at the end of the world is joined the only survivors are 2 human and the burnt Yggdrasil tree. Fouth after all is said and done the humans have only each other and the Yggdrasil to live off of. This one is a question mainly for the writers among us.  A bit of background: it seems all of my best thoughts have already been thought (though I don't know it at the time).  When I was in school, I had devised a shortcut for finding the GCF (greatest common factor) that was wonderful.  Silly me, thinking I was so smart (at 5, you're allowed to be a little egocentric) - I found out over 30 years later, while reading Euclid's Elementa Geometria (book 1), that the method was already in existence (for millenia, no less ).  Anyway - another favorite of mine is to note that "the stories have all been written", only the names and faces change.  Well, listening to the BBC recently, a writer had commented that "only 16 storylines exist".  So, I decided to see if that were common fact as well.  I couldn't find 16, but I did find the following: According to the Internet Public Library, there are 7 basic stories: [wo]man vs. nature [wo]man vs. man [wo]man vs. the environment [wo]man vs. machines/technology [wo]man vs. the supernatural [wo]man vs. self [wo]man vs. god/religion And according to Ronald Tobias, author of "Twenty Basic Plots", there are 20 quest adventure pursuit rescue escape revenge riddle rivalry underdog temptation metamorphosis transformation maturation love forbidden love sacrifice discovery wretched excess ascension decision Now, though Troy offers wonderful engineering, science, and mathematical programs, the liberal arts and communication requirements are not rigorous for those not in the communications program.  So, my "formal" training in this area is a bit lacking.  For those who have gone that route, what say you?  Is that it? Read some Howard Phillips Lovecraft books. Then read some of the books he encouraged others to write in his mythos. It's not real man vs the supernatural because it comes off more like sciene far far far beyond the scope of mankind's experience and it not really man vs technology because it usually isn't actually applied (for a few reasons).
#7 MechaPilot Jun 06, 2010 16:26:10	Read some Howard Phillips Lovecraft books. Then read some of the books he encouraged others to write in his mythos. It's not real man vs the supernatural because it comes off more like sciene far far far beyond the scope of mankind's experience and it not really man vs technology because it usually isn't actually applied (for a few reasons). Your example is actually covered, though I cannot specify where without having read the source material you suggested.  These categories are intentionally borad: for example "vs god/religion" also includes philosophy, even though it doesn't explicitly state it. For that matter, many sources of conflict can fit into several categories of conflict.  Take philosophy as an example: 1) It can fit into "vs religion" if you're talking about religious philosophy. 2) It can fit into "vs self" if the philosophy induces a crisis of self. 3) It can fit into "vs man" in instances of philosophical extremism. 4) It can fit into "vs environment" (which I've always been taught was actually "vs society") if it is a     socially accepted/repressive philosophy.
#8 death_isthe_begining Jun 07, 2010 18:56:38	I would like to say that in the Lovecraft mythos that "the good guys" often die horribly. Ultimately if the good guys "win" it just means they have delayed something apocalyptic and probably not for long (also they probably died or went crazy in the process). The best you hope for in the Lovecraft mythos is probably to hope that you are never worth notice and failing that running and hiding for the rest of your life. Oh wait, you could go over to the other side and work toprepare the world for the apocalypse. The main reason people like it is simply because it different and vivid.
#9 Novacat Jun 08, 2010 12:53:14	I've always found the notion that "There's only X different stories" idea to be rather pretentious on the part of the Literature major that makes the statement. I can do it too: There are only 2 stories: 1. The ones where stuff happens, and 2. The ones where stuff doesn't happen. Holy crap! I just revolutionized literature by showing how no one is original, because all they're doing is re-hashing those two stories! I'm so insightful! It's not that all stories are so similar to each other, it's that anything can be broken down into all-encompassing categories. This may be helpful for classifying things, but it's hardly a novel idea about originality.
#10 toastedamphibian Jun 08, 2010 17:43:01	it's hardly a novel idea about originality. It probably is, you just have not found the proper novel yet.
#11 Mechalibur Jun 08, 2010 17:47:36	What exactly is the difference between Metamorphosis and Transformation in that second list? Storywise, that is. I know the literal differences.
#12 Robin_Hoodlum Jun 08, 2010 18:34:39	What exactly is the difference between Metamorphosis and Transformation in that second list? Storywise, that is. I know the literal differences. Perhaps one denotes a greater change?
#13 death_isthe_begining Jun 08, 2010 18:52:49	Metamorphosis is more about emotional changes, Transformation is more like coping with physical changes.