Sure, they both spawned something incredible, but Gygax backed off when his creation went in a direction he didn't like. That's a respectable thing to do. Lucas drove the Star Wars franchise (drunk, presumably) into the ground.
Seriously, I think the reason that KOTOR is so awesome is because Lucas had little to do with it. It's even better than the movies. I can rant about star wars and what Lucas did to it for hours. HE MADE HARDCORE STAR WARS FANS HATE STAR WARS! (or at least his version of it) And I think that Lucas lost the magic of star wars and just started seeing the dollar signs. Unlike Gygax.
If he does, he stands a slight bit more of a chance. But I guess it doesn't matter much what powers he has since Gary Gygax is most likely the highest level character to ever walk the grid.
if we have gygax & lucas as they currently are, lucas wins by virtue of not being dead.
if we have gygax & lucas at their peak physical prime? both of them are non-combatants and it pretty much comes down to a "whoever gets in the first few solid blows".
Gygax only had one.
Also Jedi are far more awesome than Paladins.
I think Gygax would win. Gygax fans have the fanatical fervor spawned by a dead but beloved leader.
Lucas fans are somewhat disillusioned with his recent decesions and their moral suffers.
Lucas wins. Because he had three good ideas with the thing idea he once loved.
Gygax only had one.
Also Jedi are far more awesome than Paladins.
Lies! He had one good idea that he split into 3+ parts!
Lies! He had one good idea that he split into 3+ parts!
American Graffiti, and Indiana Jones.
American Graffiti, and Indiana Jones.
My apologies. I was unaware of Lucas' full armarment.
This one is too easy ... :D
At the very least you've got to admit Star Sucks has nothin' on D&D. Can't touch it. So EGG still wins. :D
As a side note, why do you dislike star wars? This is just me being nosy, not trying to convert you or anything (but really, just give KOTOR a chance.)
Lucas has a chance to get the drop on Gygax, but no! Heroes don't initiate violence ... Lucas waits for Gygax to take the first shot. Gygax obliges. Lucas = Game Over.
Yeah, I also dropped the stupid stuff like that from my Star Wars games. Hmm. If I have to heavily modify stuff like this, then Gygax wins. Automatically. Lucas is of the opinion that good=stupid.
Lucas could bring fifty Death Stars and Dark Jedis to the battle, only to have Gygax tell him to roll a Comely check.
"I rolled a Natural 1."
"The Head Anti_Paladin ignites his magical saber and commands you to hand control of your golem moons over to him."
"I fire them at you!"
"Do you have the command amulet on your neck?"
"Er, no, but I will put in on."
"As you pull out the amulet, the Anti-Paladin attacks you." "It's a vicious strike, severing the arm that had the Amulet in it!"
"What? No fair!"
"And a Sarlaac pit opens up and swallows it!"
"Where'd that come from?"
"Give me a Spot check."
"I rolled a 19!"
"You failed to see the Sarlaac approach, nor did you notice the Command Amulet was coated with contact poison! You have five seconds to act before falling unconscious. FIVE, FOUR, THREE, TWO, ONE..."
Never mess with the maker of Tomb of Horrors As a side note, why do you dislike star wars? This is just me being nosy, not trying to convert you or anything (but really, just give KOTOR a chance.)
Just never got into it. The original movies (4, 5 and 6 I guess) bored me. The characters aren't compelling to me, the story is bland. When he decided to prequel it, things got even worse. The entire concept that the Force is some mystic power granted by microorganisms (or whatever) is lame to the extreme (why not develop an aerosol deployed biological agent to kill them and stop your enemy from having any game at all). The idea that something as large and important as the Death Star could be built with a major glaring engineering problem that was eventually exploited by some farm kid is also incredibly stupid. And the bastard (Lucas) took Thulsa Doom (JEJ) and turned him into a lite brite wearin' emo. That's simply unforgiveable. ;)
There's no way that I will ever get into Star Sucks. I don't read fantasy any more and the closest I ever got to reading Sci-Fi was Vonnegut. And I don't plan on changing that any time soon. :P
Too true. :D
Vader: I need to check on this strange two meter opening my men have told me about. What's it look like?
EGG: Well, you look into the opening and see nothing but the darkest blackness.
Vader: So I don't see anything at all?
EGG: Nope.
Vader: Hmm. Guess I'll reach into it and see if there's a switch or something ...
EGG: *laughs evilly* You fool! It was a Sphere of Annihilation! You're dead! Roll up a new character, 3d6 in order. And try to make him less angsty, ok? This ain't a game for whiney pansies.
Death Star? Nah. The Tomb of Horrors dealt more death than that stupidly designed space station ever did. ;)
1.) Undead immunities.
2.) Loves the game > loves the dollar.
3.) Ridiculously dangerous monsters at Gygax's disposal. Bobba who?
Just never got into it. The original movies (4, 5 and 6 I guess) bored me. The characters aren't compelling to me(1), the story is bland(1). When he decided to prequel it, things got even worse. The entire concept that the Force is some mystic power granted by microorganisms(2) (or whatever) is lame to the extreme (why not develop an aerosol deployed biological agent to kill them and stop your enemy from having any game at all). The idea that something as large and important as the Death Star could be built with a major glaring engineering problem that was eventually exploited by some farm kid is also incredibly stupid.(3) And the bastard (Lucas) took Thulsa Doom(4) (JEJ) and turned him into a lite brite wearin' emo. That's simply unforgiveable. ;)
There's no way that I will ever get into Star Sucks. I don't read fantasy any more and the closest I ever got to reading Sci-Fi was Vonnegut. And I don't plan on changing that any time soon. :P
1) Lucas didn't write the story of the KOTOR games. Which is why it's good. And the characters are pretty good. (except for Malak. Ugh.)
2) I know. That's why I pretend his work does not exist. They NEVER mention that in KOTOR.
3) I know. That is why I pretend his work does not exist. And the Death Star has nothing on the Star Forge.
4) who?
@ Rake: Yeah, point #2 that you made proves why Gygax is superior
4) who?
Gods, you are a young'n. James Earl Jones. Voice of Vader but more importantly, Thulsa Doom from Conan the Barbarian. You know, a good movie. ;)
(:P)After giving it some thought, I have come to the conclusion that 4E is superior to SAGA edition, thus fully completing Gygax's victory.
Zombie Babies, Star Wars does NOT suck. What Lucas did with it does, but you obviously need to play Knights of The Old Republic. (NUMBER 1, Lucas got involved in the second one, which is why the story blows) And read the books about Darth Bane.
KOTOR 2, even unfinished as it is, still had infinitely better storyline than 1.
Still, for the sake of beating it further to death: I'm not going to rant against Star Wars. It has its weak points, just like AD&D. But, like AD&D, like it or not, it's a classic, so there is, in my opinion, little point in criticizing it. What makes AD&D (and thus Gygax) superior is this: Star Wars is a picture (all right, several moving pictures). They are there, painted for you, to like or dislike at your leisure. Dungeons & Dragons, on the other hand, is a sand box allowing people to do whatever they wish with, painting their own (mental) pictures as they go along. The simple fact that there is a Star Wars RPG based on this actual game proves my point. The conflict is a bit pointless, as it would be like comparing a best-selling video-game with a programming language: they do completely different things, and for many people, the pre-packaged SW stuff is a lot more comfortable, and I won't stop them. But for us - I assume, as we are posting on these forums - no setting has the capacity to keep our attention for long. Only a "Make-your-own-setting" toolbox can actually do that. Which is why I love Gygax.
KOTOR 2, even unfinished as it is, still had infinitely better storyline than 1.
what? OK. Explain this to me. On the final planet, the Ebon Hawk is crashed, but somehow manages to fly itself (OK, maybe Bao-Dur is piloting it) to rescue you from the Trayus Academy before the planet explodes. And the planet explodes, but then it doesn't, somehow. Explain that. Also, why is it that you never get to go to the HK manufacturing plant? Hmm? There are way too many story holes in it because it's unfinished. It had the POTENTIAL to be better, but an unfinished game will (almost) *always* suck compared to a complete one. I could only bring myself to play KOTOR 2 one time. It feels too tedious. The characters are GREAT, but the story is lacking (IMHO)
Anyways, we have only had one person jump in to defend Lucas. Win goes to Gygax!
Anyways, we have only had one person jump in to defend Lucas. Win goes to Gygax!
Not so fast there Sally.
I'll speak up for Lucas. Yes there are things I don't like about what were done to the movies, and some of the acting in the prequels was less than stellar. But you know what, Star Wars has given me more enjoyment over the years than D&D has.
I do love Star Wars, however, I think the KotoR games sucked ass. Really, poor games in my opinion. I didn't like the characters and the story, for me, was really predictable. I'm Revan? Really. You don't say. I figured that out pretty quickly - putting a mask on the main villain, and then having a character with amnesia?
But this isn't about the merits or flaws of a video game. It's also a biased forum to post this on. It is the D&D forum after all so of course Gygax may get a few more votes.
Star Wars and therefore Lucas wins because people will actually know what it is. Chances are you can say the words Millenium Falcon or Lightsabre and people will know what your talking about but if you say the word rust monster or tomb of horrors, most people won't have a clue what your talking about. Lucas created the ideal of what Star Wars is in many peoples minds, in fact the minds of the general populace. Do you know how hard it is to kill an ideal? I would say harder than completing the aforementioned tomb of horrors.
Besides. This. Shows who will really win in any battle, and should end anymore of these Vs. threads.
Besides. This. Shows who will really win in any battle, and should end anymore of these Vs. threads.
That was the most predictable move ever and also perfectly wrong.
Not so fast there Sally.
I'll speak up for Lucas. Yes there are things I don't like about what were done to the movies, and some of the acting in the prequels was less than stellar. But you know what, Star Wars has given me more enjoyment over the years than D&D has.
I do love Star Wars, however, I think the KotoR games sucked ass. Really, poor games in my opinion. I didn't like the characters and the story, for me, was really predictable. I'm Revan? Really. You don't say. I figured that out pretty quickly - putting a mask on the main villain, and then having a character with amnesia?
But this isn't about the merits or flaws of a video game. It's also a biased forum to post this on. It is the D&D forum after all so of course Gygax may get a few more votes.
Star Wars and therefore Lucas wins because people will actually know what it is. Chances are you can say the words Millenium Falcon or Lightsabre and people will know what your talking about but if you say the word rust monster or tomb of horrors, most people won't have a clue what your talking about. Lucas created the ideal of what Star Wars is in many peoples minds, in fact the minds of the general populace. Do you know how hard it is to kill an ideal? I would say harder than completing the aforementioned tomb of horrors.
Besides. This. Shows who will really win in any battle, and should end anymore of these Vs. threads.
Hey! Don't call me Sally! I'm a guy! Either call me Bane, Steven, or Steve! Those are the only names I will answer to! Ahem. Moving on. Revan did not have amnesia. He had a programmed identity, all of his memories weren't real. He thought he was born on the planet Deralia, but he prolly wasn't. The Jedi basically constructed a new life for him.
what? OK. Explain this to me.
Kid, chill off. Its just a frimbazzelin' game.
And I'm talking about storyline as a whole, not insignificant little details that... no one should really care about.
I mean, in KOTOR 1, you have a nice little storyline where you travel some cool places (Taris, Korriban) and some not so cool places (Dantooine, Wookie Planet), become a Jedi, find out you're former Dark Lord of the Sith, defeat the evil Sith Lord and become a hero of the Republic. Classic SW story. Nothing bad about it, nothing exceptionally good about it either.
And in KOTOR 2, who first, does an excellent work at building an atmosphere, you're all alone, hunted by everybody, and find yourself manipulated by a mysterious figure who pits you against everyone and then betrays you so that you might defeat the failed Jedi Order, destroy the Sith, and establish a new, better Jedi Order and prepare the Republic for an even greater threat. Yeah, its unfinished, its a pity cause it would be a most awesome SW adventure, but even with its foundations, its parsecs ahead of KOTOR 1.
As for speaking up, I'll go with Lucas. Gary made a game, but hell, I saw Lucas first, and back then, there was really nothing like Star Wars. Many many fond memories with Star Wars I have. Now speak like Yoda, I do.
Also, can you please edit your post? What you said di not offend me, but it may offend some. Just figured I'd be nice before reporting ya. I'll give you half an hour.
I see that strong reactions are the norm for you. Have you gotten drunk recently? If so, please share the story. I always love them, they have me laughing my ass off.
Did you read the story where I ran drunk across rooftops to get into a bar that I didn't really want to enter just to spite the bouncer?
No, I've been gone for the past few days. MOAR DETAILS! I'm thinking of making an NPC based off of your wild antics.
I wrote the whole story in another thread. It was written in an ironic manner, glorifying me (I was anything but glorious that night). Long story short, despite having to fully concentrate on walking, I climbed up on the roof of a nearby bar and ran across the block in total darkness. Then I flooded the basement (which was flood-proofed; drains in the floors and everything) and let loose with a fire extinguisher in the bar, which was so crowded that I escaped unnoticed... except that I gloated to the bouncer. All in all, though, the damage did not exceed $35 (a few broken glasses). Lucky for me.
Wow. Is there anything that beer can't do to a person?
This.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1139500
I've never met either personally. However I KNOW several people who have.
People who have met Gary Gygax describe him as odd, nerdy, but fun.
People who have met George Lucas describe him as self obsessed and boring.
Gygax wins.
Both men had good ideas.
Gary Gygax developed his own idea, and made it awesome. He continued to develop it, and improve it. He had help, and that help made it even better.
Lucas Developed his ideas, and they didn't go anywhere. Until other people fixed them for him (Notably his Ex-Wife) his work stank on toast. Then, later, he kick out the people who made is ideas into good work. Then he continued without them, and made the work suck. Then he went back and undid the fixes they had made, and made the original work suck as well.
Winner, Gygax.
Lucas's movies were only good if someone else reigned him in, and made them good. When he's allowed full control, you end up with "Attack of the Clones"
Gary Gygax, to the best of my knowledge, has never been associated with a motion picture of any sort. While he does bear some responsibility for the D&D Cartoon, he was never responsible for the writing or content. And atleast the D&D Cartoon was bad in an entertaining way.
So, Scores are negative on both sides here, but Gygax wins, because his isn't as negative.
D&D, the reason we're all here. Come on. We all love this game, or we wouldn't be here. The video games are also usually good.
Star Wars. Often the video games are decent. Some are pretty aweful. The original system of the Star Wars RPG was pretty weak. The material was good, the mechanics where bad. The best version, in general concensus, of Star Wars RPG is the version that uses the d20 system... Or, in otherwords, the D&D system.
So, winner, again, Gygax. For his creation has spawned better games, and subsumed Lucas's.
So, winning in every category? Gary Gygax.
ORIGINALLY POSTED BY ELVENSHAE (on the star wars section of the boards)
Gary would win when George opened a door without first checking the handle, the keyhole, the doorjam, and the welcome mat for traps / poison, but George would change it in post-post-post-production so that he won.
So ... a draw?
Honestly, I'm not overly enamored with either. George Lucas got lucky that he had a lot of people around who would tell him no early on; now people don't know to tell him no, so his films have gone from excellent to bad.
Gygax helped spawn D&D, which has only gotten better over time.
So via extrapolation Gygax should win, as he's on the way up and Lucas is on the way down.
Plus Gygax's fans include LARPers, with real swords, whereas no one has real lightsabers.
Conan the Barbarian. You know, a good movie. ;)
You disgrace this masterpiece with the low rating you have bestown it.
You disgrace this masterpiece with the low rating you have bestown it.
I apologize. Conan the Barbarian is - in fact - the greatest non-D&D D&D movie ever made. It's also the epitome of fantasy film and has never been approached in quality and likely never shall. Yes, I did just write that with a perfectly straight face and yes, I did mean every word.
I apologize. Conan the Barbarian is - in fact - the greatest non-D&D D&D movie ever made. It's also the epitome of fantasy film and has never been approached in quality and likely never shall. Yes, I did just write that with a perfectly straight face and yes, I did mean every word.
I can also seriously sign these words as my own.
Except I'd also add that there are two equally great fantasy films who try to capture two completely different kinds of energy, one is Conan and the other is Excalibur.
... And, thinking about good epic fantasy films, well... Apart from some half-serious flicks such as Ladyhawk... That's pretty much it.
Gary's creations might survive more than 3 episodes...
I speak, of course, of the Jedi Counsel. You see, my gaming group has come to the realization that, w/ the exception of the original three movies (4,5, & 6... which notably do not include the Jedi Counsel), the Jedi Counsel ALWAYS manages to get horribly slaughtered, in some really, really painful fashion. Usually, by two guys who manage to infiltrate and influence the political system the Jedi Counsel serves and protects.
It even happens in KOTOR. Sith: (infinity sign). Jedi Counsel: 0.
In my gaming group, you are considered suicidal if your character wants to be a member of the Jedi Counsel. Suicidal to a degree that, if Kobolds existed in the SW universe, they'd look at you and wonder what was wrong with you.
The Jedi Counsel is the LAMEST organization ever. And they have LIGHTSABERS, which should give them a head-start.
If a sanctioned SW product comes out where the Jedi Counsel doesn't get their sorry hind-ends handed to them on a silver platter... I might recover some of my old respect for that universe.
But...
...until then, Gary will have the win. Even if you kill him, he'll probably just transform into some sort of horrible undead and devour you. Seriously, that's the way he thinks.