This makes me wish to ask the following questions about cartoons you watched growing up:
What is your favorite cartoon?
What is your favorite cartoon character?
What is your favorite episode of a particular cartoon show?
What do you think was the worst cartoon?
I personally loved a lot of the cartoons that I remember watching while growing up.
I believe my favorite may have been the cartoons with Foghorn Leghorn.
Off-hand, I'm not sure who my favorite individual character would be, but Thundarr the Barbarian comes to mind.
I believe my favorite episode of a cartoon may be the one where Elmer Fudd went crazy, started wearing a rabbit outfit, and was institutionalized. While wearing his bunny suit, he coaxed Bogs Bunny into his room and traded places with him. (Bugs was happy to have an unlimited supply of carrots...) Then, the psychiatrist came in. He thought Bugs was the insane Elmer fudd and decided to hypnotize him into remembering who he was. He began swinging a watch in front of Bugs' face and saying the following:
Repeat after me:
I am Elmer J Fudd Millionaire.
I own a mansion and a yacht.
Again!
The Transformers
What is your favorite cartoon character?
Unicron
What is your favorite episode of a particular cartoon show?
Dragonball Z, "Save the World." The climatic Kamehameha duel between Gohan and Cell was a bit longer than it perhaps needed to be, but it still seemed to have just enough edge-of-your-seatiness to it. This particular episode stands out especially since my father was curious about the outcome as well.
What do you think was the worst cartoon?
Care Bears. Well, atleast the earlier seasons. The wizard, No Heart, was alright, and for some reason I really liked his niece, Shreeky. Combine that with Lydia Deetz from Beetlejuice and... that might explain a great many things.
Favourite show: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (both the original run and the 2003 version)
Favourite character: Michelangelo
Though to be honest, there should actually be a long list as an answer for the second one ;)
Hmm. A toss up between Exo Squad, M.A.S.K. and the Gummybears, I think. Nowdays it'd be between Venture Bros, ATHF, Harvey Birdman and Friskey Dingo.
What is your favorite cartoon character?
Back then? I really liked Exo Squad's Alec DeLeon and Kaz Takagi. Today? None really.
What is your favorite episode of a particular cartoon show?
I don't know that I have one. Possibly the episode of E_S where Alec dies.
What do you think was the worst cartoon?
The Care Bears and My Little Pony. Icky girl stuff if ya' ask me. ;) :D
1. G.I.Joe - loved it as a kid.
1a. Transformers - loved it almost as much
1b. Jonny Quest - classic.
What is your favorite cartoon character?
Scooby Doo
What is your favorite episode of a particular cartoon show?
Don't remember the title, but it was when Wildstar first test fired the Wave Motion Gun on the floating continent in Star Blazers. Awesome.
What do you think was the worst cartoon?
Hulk Hogan's Rock N Wrestling.
or
Mr. T.
The Funky Phantom. Total Scooby-Doo clone, but I liked the American Revolution approach.
What is your favorite cartoon character?
The Funky Phantom's cat, Boo.
What is your favorite episode of a particular cartoon show?
Bugs Bunny's "What's Opera, Doc?" (KILL THE WAAAAAABBIT!)
What do you think was the worst cartoon?
I was going to say "SpongeBob Squarepants" (tries too hard) or "Rugrats" (not everybody thinks whatever babies do is cute), but I'm throwing my vote for "Captain Planet". Friggin' EPA propaganda.
I'm surprised at myself that I mentioned no Japanese cartoons in this list. Normally they draw severe criticism from me, but I guess they're really not that bad... at least not as bad as "Captain Planet".
Whoa there, Kitty. Captain Planet friggin' pwnt. For reals, even. The only bad thing about the show was that the kid with Heart was too supid/goody-goody to exploit it. ;) :P
And the monkey.
Kord, how I hated the monkey.
What is your favorite episode of a particular cartoon show?
Bugs Bunny's "What's Opera, Doc?" (KILL THE WAAAAAABBIT!)
Thankyou shiftkitty. That one is awesome!
Sorry for having to diss Captain Planet, guys, but I hate cartoons with "messages", unless that message is to kill the scwewy wabbit.
My favorite character is Dr. John Zoidberg, but only when he is in a supporting role. The episodes he stars in feel a little flat.
"Da Boom" (Family Guy) is my favorite episode of any cartoon. The fight with the giant chicken really established what Family Guy was about: it started with an absurd joke, made the joke funny, beat the joke to death, and the new joke was that the previous joke was going on entirely too long. I don't enjoy the series nearly as much anymore, but that was a great episode.
I pick Doug as my least favorite cartoon. I figure I'll take some heat for this, but I always thought it was a boring show. I don't know that it is the worst, but it wasn't entertaining.
You're welcome. If not for that cartoon, I probably never would have known who Richard Wagner was...:D
Sorry for having to diss Captain Planet, guys, but I hate cartoons with "messages", unless that message is to kill the scwewy wabbit.
What if the message is that although it may be difficult to decide whether you shoot the duck now or later, either way, the duck still gets shot.
Back in the day I'd say Courage the Cowardly Dog, now I'd say Code Geass.
Favorite Episode
Dexter's Lab with the D&D.
Least Favorite
SpongeIdiot Dumbpants. He's trying to hard and it's stupid. It's not even stupid funny.
What if the message is that although it may be difficult to decide whether you shoot the duck now or later, either way, the duck still gets shot.
Works for me: "Don't mess with the wabbit, but go ahead and shoot the duck. And, it doesn't pay to be a coyote if your only source of food is a roadrunner."
Favorite Character: Umm... all of them? Zoidberg, the Professor, Bender, they're all good.
Regarding: Spungebob Squarepants
About.... 5-6 years ago, I guess, I was working at a summer day camp, and my boss, who ran all the day camps in the area, came up to me one day and said: "Who lives in a pineapple under the sea?".
I responded: "Umm, Andrew, are you high??" (He's about 50 and is probably the last person in the world you'd expect to do drugs, but I had to ask).
He gave me a dirty look, turned to one of my coworkers and said: "Who lives in a pineapple under the sea?"
My coworker just stared at him, dumbfounded.
My boss sighed, called out to one of the program coordinators in the other room and said: "Hey Meridith. Who lives in a pineapple under the sea?"
From the other room, the answer came back in a yell: "SPONGEBOB SQUARE PANTS"
My boss turned back to me and my coworker and told us that our homework for the evening was to memorize the SpongeBob Squarepants opening song and watch at least two episodes (he even gave us the time and channel that it would be on that night).
Since that night I have had zero hope for the future of mankind. I mean, this is what kids are watching these days. They are going to all grow up completely confused about how the world works. I mean, how the heck do you drive a boat, with wheels, along the bottom of the sea? Look at the silly monkey.
Ray, or Egon.
Episode... Halloween special. God I played that tape till it died. :D
Worst Show, Rugrats.
Honorable Mentions
EXO Squad,
Transformers (Beast Wars In particular)
GIJoe
Escaflowne DAMN YOU FOX DAMN YOU TO GAMER HELL! (yes that means they will be forced to play Cygirls for all eternity, while watching Uwe Boll movies)
Batman The Animated Series
Batman Beyond
Superman's animated Series
Men In Black
Favorite Cartoon: Futurama
Favorite Character: Umm... all of them? Zoidberg, the Professor, Bender, they're all good.
Regarding: Spungebob Squarepants
About.... 5-6 years ago, I guess, I was working at a summer day camp, and my boss, who ran all the day camps in the area, came up to me one day and said: "Who lives in a pineapple under the sea?".
I responded: "Umm, Andrew, are you high??" (He's about 50 and is probably the last person in the world you'd expect to do drugs, but I had to ask).
He gave me a dirty look, turned to one of my coworkers and said: "Who lives in a pineapple under the sea?"
My coworker just stared at him, dumbfounded.
My boss sighed, called out to one of the program coordinators in the other room and said: "Hey Meridith. Who lives in a pineapple under the sea?"
From the other room, the answer came back in a yell: "SPONGEBOB SQUARE PANTS"
My boss turned back to me and my coworker and told us that our homework for the evening was to memorize the SpongeBob Squarepants opening song and watch at least two episodes (he even gave us the time and channel that it would be on that night).
Since that night I have had zero hope for the future of mankind. I mean, this is what kids are watching these days. They are going to all grow up completely confused about how the world works. I mean, how the heck do you drive a boat, with wheels, along the bottom of the sea? Look at the silly monkey.
I think I would have told him where to stuff Vajinal SpongeBob and handed him a homework assignment to recite all four verses of the "Star Spangled Banner", the Gettysburg Address (explaining its siginificance), and to compare and contrast the American and French Revolutions. If cartoons are so damned important to him, I'd also let him give a speech on the historical significance of cartoons starting with pictoglyphs and ending with web comics. (This is not an insignificant topic, BTW. Will Eisner, cartoonist and creator of "The Spirit", wrote a series of books that talked about cartooning technique and the history of the art.)
I think I would have told him where to stuff Vajinal SpongeBob and handed him a homework assignment to recite all four verses of the "Star Spangled Banner", the Gettysburg Address (explaining its siginificance), and to compare and contrast the American and French Revolutions. If cartoons are so damned important to him, I'd also let him give a speech on the historical significance of cartoons starting with pictoglyphs and ending with web comics. (This is not an insignificant topic, BTW. Will Eisner, cartoonist and creator of "The Spirit", wrote a series of books that talked about cartooning technique and the history of the art.)
He prolly would have thrown up at the mere mention of anything 'Merican. We're Canadians up here, ya hoser.
And Captain Planet, he's my hero. He's going to take polution down to zero.
Captain Planet or Captain America. Choose!
Captain America. That's a no brainer.
How about Animaniacs and Freakazoid.
Also, for the record, I think Spongebob had some subtle and intelligent humor. Occasionally... I usually limit myself to the movie.
Regarding: Spungebob Squarepants
About.... 5-6 years ago, I guess, I was working at a summer day camp, and my boss, who ran all the day camps in the area, came up to me one day and said: "Who lives in a pineapple under the sea?".
I responded: "Umm, Andrew, are you high??" (He's about 50 and is probably the last person in the world you'd expect to do drugs, but I had to ask).
He gave me a dirty look, turned to one of my coworkers and said: "Who lives in a pineapple under the sea?"
My coworker just stared at him, dumbfounded.
My boss sighed, called out to one of the program coordinators in the other room and said: "Hey Meridith. Who lives in a pineapple under the sea?"
From the other room, the answer came back in a yell: "SPONGEBOB SQUARE PANTS"
My boss turned back to me and my coworker and told us that our homework for the evening was to memorize the SpongeBob Squarepants opening song and watch at least two episodes (he even gave us the time and channel that it would be on that night).
Since that night I have had zero hope for the future of mankind. I mean, this is what kids are watching these days. They are going to all grow up completely confused about how the world works. I mean, how the heck do you drive a boat, with wheels, along the bottom of the sea? Look at the silly monkey.
Actually, a follow up. What relevance AT ALL does this have to the quality of the cartoon?
Short answer: none.
You met a creepy guy and were turned off by the premise.
Traumatizing, I'm sure... but yah, your story doesn't pin Spongebob as a bad show.
He prolly would have thrown up at the mere mention of anything 'Merican. We're Canadians up here, ya hoser.
And Captain Planet, he's my hero. He's going to take polution down to zero.
All right, smart-butt, ;), how about the repercussions of the Aroostook County War (starring England and Aroostook County in Maine, but affecting that end of Canada), the "Boar War" (not to be confused with the Boer War, but also affecting that end of Canada), and the attempts on Montreal during the American Revolution? (Nyahh! I'll probably get better at my Canadian history once we move closer. I admit it's abyssmal.)
:DOne more thing, you'll never get pollution down to zero. Living things cause pollution by their very existence, unless you're suggesting that Captain Planet is going to wipe out every living thing on the planet. Ooh, how sneeeeeeeaky! Make everyone think he's a good guy and THEN...
Proof that environmentalism is evil, perhaps? :P
What is your favorite cartoon?
Hmm. A toss up between Exo Squad, M.A.S.K. and the Gummybears, I think. Nowdays it'd be between Venture Bros, ATHF, Harvey Birdman and Friskey Dingo.
I think this explains a very logical evolution in maturity for your average geek/nerd.
I believe my favorite may have been the cartoons with Foghorn Leghorn.
;)
Good choice. Foghorn is awesome, but sadly, kinda' getting phased out in this sanitized, modern, PC age. Some sensitive egos thought, "Ah, Deep South, manipulative rooster, must be a racist/scallywag/carpetbagger."
At work this afternoon, the topic of conversation turned to our most favorite cartoons that we watched while growing up (had to note that part cuz', even today in my 30's, I still watch alot of animated tele.
And btw, this trip down memory lane is harder than I anticipated; so many choices. That is, I will likely change my mind in 5 minutes (CN align for entertainment media :D )
What is your favorite cartoon?
Childhood: "Robotech"; first taste of anime, about 3rd grade or so ('86)
Adult: big toss up, "Venture Bros.", "Metalocalpse", "Cowboy Beebob". Any Adult Swim fare, really. Almost all their programs are good.
What is your favorite cartoon character?
Childhood: Probably Snake Eyes ("G.I.Joe"). Every kid on the block wanted to be this superbadass. Like an extra deadly, mute version of Drizzt
Adult: Ah, easy, Dr. Rockso ("Metalocalypse")
What is your favorite episode of a particular cartoon show?
Childhood: "G.I.Joe", Cobra is racing around the planet collecting various bits of DNA from historic figures to create an ubermensch leader, and of course, they wind up in Transylvania to get Teppes', Joes must stop them.
Adulthood: "Venture Bros"; big parody of "Apocalypse Now" between Brock & Hank whom is tripping due to Motoltov C-ckteases' poison stilleto heels. Goes into some tangent from the movie (hunting down Kurtz/Dr. Venture) w/ a nod to The Doors' (Father/Yes Hank?/I want to kill you...)
What do you think was the worst cartoon?
Childhood: "Snorks", little aquatic bong-people. Rip-off of the "Smurfs".
Adulthood: pretty much any new cartoons on network TV. Wtf happend to Saturday morning cartoons these days? "Bratz"?!, "Dora the Explorer"?!, that stupid Jackie Chan show?!
Zombie_Babies: What is your favorite cartoon?
Hmm. A toss up between Exo Squad, M.A.S.K. and the Gummybears, I think. Nowdays it'd be between Venture Bros, ATHF, Harvey Birdman and Friskey Dingo.
Another good call(s). I see your Schwartz is as big as mine...
"Dora the Explorer"?!, that stupid Jackie Chan show?!
Um... I must admit, I kind of like Dora the Explorer. Not a big fan of Jackie, but Dora and Boots are okay.
Um...
Yes Minja? Please address the rest of the class.;)
I must admit, I kind of like Dora the Explorer. Not a big fan of Jackie, but Dora and Boots are okay.
Ok, fair enough. I suppose it has some merit. Perhaps I'm just anachronistic and clingy to the old days when quality control was a little different.
That, and I think I was projecting: afflicted w/ 1 episode of "Dora" in a room full of hyper active, no inner monologue, highly sugared kids. Not the best environment, you know? Consequently, I probably associated that.
And to think, I still like "Reading Rainbow". How come they never cover any erotica or gothic horror books on that show?;)
What is your favorite cartoon?
Transformers, followed closely by Robotech and Inhumanoids
What is your favorite cartoon character?
Shockwave, then Wheeljack, then Decompose, and significantly later on: The Tick
What is your favorite episode of a particular cartoon show?
Oh so many moments...Decompose converting soldiers to zombies...the zentraedi fleet annihilating the earth...the tick getting his dog Speak...I think I'll go with Speak. Oh the Tick, a little past my youth yet so therapeutic...
What do you think was the worst cartoon?
Monchichis. If you don't remember it, keep it that way, it's like the care bears...only more worse...so much worse...
I don't know about everyone else but I hate all the new kid cartoons. They are all trying to teach kids stuff like language, math, and other stuff. I'm not sure, but aren't they suppose to be learning this stuff in school and from their parents? Not only have cartoons become a day care (take a load of off parents) but they seem to now have become a tutor? What happened to the good old days when the only message was something like "be good to others" or "read a book" or "friends are for support" or "this show is funny?"
Oh we had messages in the good old days too. Remember those GI Joe Public Service Announcements? How about when they dubbed over one of the characters in Gatchaman (aka Battle of the Planets) so that he spouted gibberish and claimed he was "Special" (I missed that one when I was a kid but was horrified when I saw it a couple of years ago on DVD). Then there were reams of other kids shows on reading, French (though this might have been a Canadian thing), and any show that wasn't directly educational had to have some safety announcement at the end...then suddenly it stopped in the mid-late 80s...
*Also points to the Penn & Teller: Good Old Days episode for further relevence* You can probably watch it on youtube.
My mother actually showed me a book that, among several other theses, said sesame street was ruining society because... yes get this... it perpetuates the idea that learning could be fun. I never really bothered to find out whether she was half-kidding me or not but the book is called Amusing Ourselves to Death and I'm certain people who find the idea intriguing or BS could find it with a quick amazon search.
Or are ridiculusly stupid like Chowder or Camp Lazlo.
I agree. Those very few that aren't a school are instead 100x more retarded than the great retarded shows that we watched while growing up.
Although I have to say that the 'school' cartoons are meant more for those snot nosed, rat kids that are under 8 or so while the 'retarded' cartoons are meant, for the most part, for snot nosed, rat kids that are around the age category of 8 to 16.
Actually, a follow up. What relevance AT ALL does this have to the quality of the cartoon?
Short answer: none.
You met a creepy guy and were turned off by the premise.
Traumatizing, I'm sure... but yah, your story doesn't pin Spongebob as a bad show.
Umm, what? Did you even read what I wrote?
(Yeah, I know that saying that makes me come across as an ass, but you seem to be missing the basic information in my story which makes me think that you just read the bottom where I badmouth Spongbob)
First off, I didn't "[meet] a creepy guy and [get] turned off by the premise". I "talked to my boss and was confused at his, seemingly, out of the blue and rather bizarre question"
("Who lives in a pineapple under the sea?". I mean, seriously, if you had never seen the show and someone asked you that, you'd prolly be just as confused as I was)
It wasn't until I watched the show (which makes no sense in a "real world" sort of way) that I decided it was crazy. Literally crazy and probably warping the small fragile minds off all who watch it. Does that make it a horrible show? Yes. Does that mean you can't watch and enjoy it? No.
In the future, if you are going to ask me a question about something I posted, please assure that you actually read my post. It's really annoying when you don't. (If English is not your first language, then I apologize. If it is, then I anti-apologize and add +5 to my mocking you modifier, you smelly smelly bum face. Ha, take that!)
And while an interesting anecdote, its just that, my friend. I still don't feel it speaks about the quality of the show... but as I said, I probably came across more rude than I meant to. And I feel silly arguing about Spongebob.
Perhaps I came across more harshly than I intended. Of course I read the whole post... and didn't mean that you met some random got. But since it was a narrative anecdote my meaning was more "at some point in the past, you met a guy who had a weird sense of humor about spongebob."
And while an interesting anecdote, its just that, my friend. I still don't feel it speaks about the quality of the show... but as I said, I probably came across more rude than I meant to. And I feel silly arguing about Spongebob.
Bah, it's all good. I try not to get worked up about stuff people say on the forums (otherwise I feel like an even larger geek than I normally do).
You're right, it doesn't really speak about the quality of the show, I just thought it was a somewhat funny story that I'd share since people were talking about Spongebob. And to be honest, I have laughed at some of the absurd jokes on Spongebob. I just think it seems more like a show for university stoners than for young kids.
Bah, it's all good.
We're both goofy goobers. :P
We're both goofy goobers. :P
Awesome.
I don't even really like Spongebob, but when they throw out an adult quip, homage, whatever, like that, well, it's disarming/hilarious to say the least.
Seriously, what kid is gonna' get that? Were any of them even born before or during Twisted Sister's height of fame?
We're both goofy goobers. :P
The image of Spongebob on his knees, grabbing his crotch and yelling into the microphone (1:04 in the video) will now forever be etched into my brain. And not in a good way.
Seriously, this is a kids show? Patrick in the high heels and fishnet stockings just doesn't seem child appropriate to me. To each his own, I guess.
The image of Spongebob on his knees, grabbing his crotch and yelling into the microphone (1:04 in the video) will now forever be etched into my brain. And not in a good way.
Seriously, this is a kids show? Patrick in the high heels and fishnet stockings just doesn't seem child appropriate to me. To each his own, I guess.
I think most of the best animated (not always kid-oriented) shows try to use jokes made for both kids and adults.
1 ton ghost, this link is also for you!
Top 11 Naughtiest Moments in Animaniacs
Note that this show is critically acclaimed, but the stuff they sneaked into it... well... :P.
Engineering children's programs so that it teaches them stuff IS sensible children's programming because that's what kids are: learning machines. Children are genetically programmed to learn and to like learning. That's what play essentially is: learning.
A show that teaches kids how to spell or do math or behave properly doesn't have to be mindnumblingly boring, but it has to contain SOMETHING or it's just not going to be all that good for them - you might as well just make them stare at a blank screen.
It was Sailor Moon then and it's Sailor Moon now even though I'm 14-ish years older. Although Dangermouse came a close second back then.
What is your favorite cartoon character?
The Tick!
What is your favorite episode of a particular cartoon show?
I don't know that I have a favourite =/
What do you think was the worst cartoon?
I thought most Walt Disney was crap but especially Wyle E. Coyote/Roadrunner cartoon. I just don't get it at all.
Child: Looney Tunes
Now: Either Family Guy or Shin Chan
What is your favorite cartoon character?
Child: Bugs Bunny
Now: Shin Nohara
What is your favorite episode of a particular cartoon show?
Shin Chan - Girls Just Wanna Have Husbands
What do you think was the worst cartoon?
Not sure but there are a lot.
Dungeons and Dragons. One of my favorite memory of my chidhood.
- Charater?
Lt. / Wing Cmdr. J.T. Marsh, leader of Exo Squad (second season ended with a great cliffhanger)
- Most hated serie by me.
Family guy.
Lil' Timmy: "Mom. What is the octopus doing to the girl?"
Mom: "OMFG!"
You want to say something but it's just to funny.
What is your favorite cartoon? Spiderman the Animated series (and I can officailly say it was for the series itself. I wasn't into superheroes), or teenage mutant ninja turtles (or was I?). Star Trek TAS would probably be there too, not because it's good, simply that I am a trekkie.
What is your favorite cartoon character? Ooo! Oo! DANGERMOUSE!!! Closely followed by Inspector Gadget or SuperTed.
What is your favorite episode of a particular cartoon show? TMNT when they got shrunk! Why? Because I spent a lot of time in hospitals, waiting to see if my sis got better. I only had two video tapes. That was on one. (Star Trek was the other).
What do you think was the worst cartoon? I'm gonna get murdered for this... Transformers. Why? Um, I never really 'got it.' Mebbe 'cos I'm a girl. But probably not.
Star Trek TAS would probably be there too, not because it's good, simply that I am a trekkie.
I am a trekkie too, but I have never seen the Star Trek cartoon, I heard about it existing in rumors but I thought it was relegated to back alley status.... like the only way you could find it was by going to those vendors on the streets that also sell the expensive looking watches that don't work.
What do you think was the worst cartoon? I'm gonna get murdered for this... Transformers. Why? Um, I never really 'got it.' Mebbe 'cos I'm a girl. But probably not.
I doubt it is totally about you being a girl. From the episodes I have seen, which isn't all that many, I kind of enjoyed it. And I absolutely LOVED the Transformers movie that just came out. :D
I am a trekkie too, but I have never seen the Star Trek cartoon, I heard about it existing in rumors but I thought it was relegated to back alley status.... like the only way you could find it was by going to those vendors on the streets that also sell the expensive looking watches that don't work.
If you are a true trekkie then you would have seen it.
I doubt it is totally about you being a girl. From the episodes I have seen, which isn't all that many, I kind of enjoyed it. And I absolutely LOVED the Transformers movie that just came out. :D
......a while ago.
One of my older brothers, when he was a young lad, "transformed" in the middle of a store. He started making a bunch of sounds and wiggling around. When my mom asked him what he was doing, he responded with "I'm transforming."
One of my older brothers, when he was a young lad, "transformed" in the middle of a store. He started making a bunch of sounds and wiggling around. When my mom asked him what he was doing, he responded with "I'm transforming."
You made my day, df.
One of my older brothers, when he was a young lad, "transformed" in the middle of a store. He started making a bunch of sounds and wiggling around. When my mom asked him what he was doing, he responded with "I'm transforming."
I did a similar thing with the Power Puff Girls once....
.... it was embarrassing.I did a similar thing with the Power Puff Girls once....
Bubbles or Blossom?
Speaking of TAS you should also see this: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KXWEM4gZhg4
How often did you fly around and what color trailed behind you?
I only tried it once in public. No rainbows flying behind me, that I could see anyway.
that.