Personally I stopped caring about Belgian politics 4 years or so ago. They've been arguing about the same thing for 5 or 6 years now. I couldn't find an English article about the facebook group, but here's a more general one:
Link
Snippet from the bottom of the article:
Belgium is the European country with the longest time in recent history without a government -- as of Tuesday in its 226th day, beating a record set by the Netherlands in 1977.
If things don't change until March 31, Belgium will snatch the not-so-desirable world record. It's currently held by Iraq.
Lets hope you don't get the record... it does not bode well for a country if it goes longer without a government then a country that lost it's government during a war. (At least, I'm assuming the record is held by Iraq after the current US-Iraq war?)
Why not just opt for seperation? It would solve lots of problems.
And create twice as many, considering Brussels is the de facto capital of EU, among other things.
This would change EU administration greatly; that's one more country to include in the budget, adjust laws to, make room in the parliament for, include in taxes...
Oh, and Belgium's in NATO as well, so lots of military would have to be relocated, among other things.
Not to mention the possibility of a civil war outbreak; you know, like in the 1860s in America.
You can't just split a country like that. Especially one so internationally involved.
Actualy you can split a country just like that. Czechoslovakia got split up into Slovakia and Czech Republic pretty peacefully.
...alongside USSR falling apart and Germanies joining back and followed by a war in Yugoslavia.
Different times, different conditions.
As for the adjustement, well that is the drawback of bureaucraties. Nothing dramatic. The EU got a load of new countries in with all the Eastern Europeen countries who joined and it wasn't the end of the world.
You think that went as easily as turning a light on?
And a split is far more trouble than adding new members to the Union.
I wouldn't go as far as to call the Flemish and Walloons 'ethnicities'. Aside from language, there's really no difference, but it's enough to divide us.
I don't care what they do to solve this as long as they GET ON WITH IT.
Even doing nothing and shutting up about it is fine. The politicians could move on to more important issues. Problem is, they've been going on about it too long and the current parties have vowed to solve the problem (something about Walloons in Flemish cities around Brussels being able to vote for Walloon politicians). Neither side wants the budge. The Flemish politicians don't want to drop the matter because they promised to solve it so long ago.
The previous government has fallen because of this, resulting in re-elections. And now, because they've been stuck again for so long, there's talk of new re-elections.
Why not just opt for seperation? It would solve lots of problems.
Splitting this little fleck on the map into what - two micro-flecks? (Or three or four, since there's been issues about where Brussels and the german-talking bit in the east should go...) Seriously I personally don't believe division is worth the trouble.
Firstly we'd be screwing over Wallonia in a bigger way than them being stuck with the faded glory of their older industries and Flanders having newer and cleaner ones: all of Belgium's sea-territory will become for the Flemish only, as will the international harbours. Unemployment is already greater in Wallonia than it is in Flanders, so after a split they'd even have more trouble keeping their lips above the water as there'd be less working citizens providing for the poor.
The French in the south need the north's economic strenght, but this situation is new since the north benefited from the south's economic strenght for a long time.
True, and that's why Flanders can't leave them hanging. Not only because Flanders might face economical decline itself one day while Wallonia might flourish, but because it would just be rude to say, 'kthanksbye'. That's like asking a divorse because your spouse is making less money than you after you got a raise. I say All for One and One for All - it's not like they're not trying their best either, as far as I can tell.
Also, there's the military. After dividing up the helicopters and tanks, what kind of means and /or budget will any side have left for training and maintaining even a tiny army?
Belgium also has a monarchy. What 'd Albert II be king off after a split? Brussels? People are already saying dotations are too high, so who will want to provide for the royal family on their own?
What to do with the railways? They're all connected to a central bottleneck in Brussels, they're not privately owned, and I can just tell it's going to be a mess if they'd try to divvy that up.
Not to mention we'd mean peanuts internationally if we'd also split the national soccer team. Even moreso.
Czechoslowakia managed a split, yes, but it took years for the headache to end (if it already has), and I can't see Belgium do any better within the span of at least a decade. After a split, we're still going to end up with two or more governments made up out of the folks who can't make decisions now. What we need is a change of heart, and get our priorities straight.
Besides, if there's going to be new elections, I bet lots of people will just cast protest-votes for being fed up about it all (because in Belgium, elections are compulsory) and we'll get weird results like everyone having voted for the most extreme parties. Some kind of rub we'd be in if that's going to be the case...!
Not to mention the possibility of a civil war outbreak; you know, like in the 1860s in America.
Thankfully, this is one thing I'm not very affraid of. Surely there'll always be a couple of hot-headed idiots, but not all of the population is politically involved enough to put up with actual fighting over this kind of thing. To many Flemish people for example Wallonia is just where you rent a bungalow in the summer vacation. Not to mention 'war' is a word not used lightly overhere. All of our grandparents have seen it first-hand, and we've all been on a field trip to Ipres and the trenches. Sure a civil war can't compete with WWI and II, but I can't see people taking up arms for something as trivial as people wanting to receive their invitiations for the elections in Dutch instead of French.
Unless ofcourse someone decides to do that for us. Good thing we don't have that much oil here.
*snip*
And I want to add that most things that kept Czechoslovakia together fell down with the USSR.
As you can see goldo, what applied then to "my southern brothers" doesn't apply to the centre of the EU.
Of course not. I was just saying that peaceful splits are possible.
A-hem.
It doesn't mean it doesn't apply to Belgium.
And the gold might be worth the trouble. Especially sicne we are talking of bureaucratic trouble that won't affect the inhabitants for the most part. Belgium is already part of the EU.
I am not a goldfish. ;)
Looks like our "need" of gov't is much less than it's cracked up to be.
They have like 6 levels of government.
... We do? Let me check my country's wikipedia page again.
Seriously though, while I can't say I know each nook and cranny of the super-complicated governing system Belgium has, it boils down to things applying to culture and education and all that being decided on on a Community level (because they're language-related), and things like infrastructure and what have you on a Regional level. And then there's a Federal level for when it concerns us all. It's not like either part has the authority to meddle in one another's affairs - they stick to their own fields.
The problem is that with the deadlock we're experiencing now on that Federal level, some really pressing matters like a better immigration policy simply don't get done. There's people with children in fenced centres that are overfull, dammit, and more living in the streets sleeping in abandoned buildings and railway stations. So this
Looks like our "need" of gov't is much less than it's cracked up to be.
...while not comparable to the really atrocious stuff out there, is not entirey true.
On a more cheery note, in the city of Gent people are going to throw a party to celebrate. come on, come all:
Show
Translation: 'Attempt for the Government-Forming World Record - 249 days without government - Support our Heroes! Follow us on Facebook and Twitter'
Translation: 'Attempt for the Government-Forming World Record - 249 days without government - Support our Heroes! Follow us on Facebook and Twitter'
True, and that's why Flanders can't leave them hanging. Not only because Flanders might face economical decline itself one day while Wallonia might flourish, but because it would just be rude to say, 'kthanksbye'. That's like asking a divorse because your spouse is making less money than you after you got a raise. I say All for One and One for All - it's not like they're not trying their best either, as far as I can tell.
While that's all true in and of itself, it bears mentionning that splitting the country was not a goal by itself but was proposed as a solution to the deadlock.
The gist of the original problem as I understand it is as follows:
Contrary to previous agreements, Walloons in the Flemish cities around Brussels -instead of integrating into the Flemish society- started assimilating instead, which lead eventually to them voting for Walloon political parties in those cities. The Flemish inhabitants of those areas have always objected and asked the politicians to do something about it. Politicians have then promised term after term to make it impossible to vote for Walloon politicians in Flanders, but the Walloon part of the government always blocked that. Then a few years ago the thing started getting a lot of media attention and several parties vowed to put a stop to it no matter what.
Thus the deadlock: The Flemish parties will not agree to anything unless their demand about those Flemish cities around Brussels are met . Meanwhile the Walloons will never agree to it.
Oh, dear, Belgium has been without its gov't for nearly 8 months. Oh, the horror, the humanity, and other really big "H" words. Strange, though, I don't hear of any rampant crime in the streets or ax-murderers running wild in college dorms.
Looks like our "need" of gov't is much less than it's cracked up to be.
Axe murderers? I think you mean pedophiles; this is Belgium!
But no, the looting hasn't started yet.
Or, your local media doesn't care about Belgium enough to give you actual news reports on the situation down there, because they deem it less important then who won the latest "America has talents, but we´re not showing any" or which celebrety married which other celebrety.
I've been wondering myself quite a few times what the exact consequences are for being without a government for so long. According to the newspapers it's supposed to be bad for the economy as investors and big companies lose faith in our silly country.
Were there any consequences in the Netherlands? They held the record before Iraq stole it from them I heard.
Hey, I am only paraphrasing Qube, who is also from Belgium.
As far as I know it's correct. I believe we have 6 governments: 3 for the languages: French, Dutch and German, 3 geographical: Flanders, Wallonia, Brussels. Its workings are complex and more than half of the Belgians (myself included) don't properly understand how it works exactly.
Wait, what? People wanted to make it impossible to vote for a certain party just because of where they lived? Isn't forcing someone's vote that way kinda excessively and blatantly unethical? Am I just misunderstanding this?
That's a valid concern, given the little information I've presented. I tried to keep it as brief as possible to not bore people.
Originally, there were some regions that belonged to Flanders where there were still some Walloons AND some regions that belonged to Wallonia where there were still Flemish people. It was agreed then that there would be some temporary facilities in both those regions to accomodate those people while they were integrating. Ex: some Flemish schools in the Wallonian cities with Flemish people and vice versa. The Flemish people stuck to their side of the deal and integrated and the Flemish facilities in Wallonian territory were disbanded. The Wallonian people in the Flemish cities did not integrate at all. They still have their facilities and get to vote for French speaking politicians. The afformentioned Flemish people who adapted in the Wallonian region can not vote for Flemish parties. Now to the Flemish people in that Flemish region it's as if the Walloons are trying to push them out of their own cities, by making them Wallonian.
Can Mexican people in the US start a Spanish party, which would rule in the Spanish language? I'd expect Americans in regions with many immigrants would object. While prohibiting those Mexicans from doing such a thing would be undemocratic, what they are trying to do is improper as well.
On the starting of and voting for foreign parties I am personally divided. That's somewhat of a gray zone to me. But there's much more to it here in Belgium than that.
Sorry for being culturally ignorant, but for some reason it's difficult for me to take names such as "Walloons" or "Flemish" and their respectable regions' seriously. It sounds like something from a Gulliver novel or a jRPG to me
It was only a week or so ago that I found out through a movie on youtube that they were thus called in English. They are indeed silly names (in English) but I think it's fitting. They really underline the silliness of the whole situation.
Be warned: it's a doozy - but you can just skip to 'Points of View', approximately halfway the page too (that's what I did).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels-Halle-Vil...
So yeah. I find this notion that some regions in Belgium have a language-litmus test to be very... disconcerting. If you get enough votes then it's clear you speak to enough of the population to get the votes.
Um... yeah... the United States doesn't have a state language. Anywhere.
I thought English was adapted as the official language a few years back; unless I'm misunderstanding "state language".
I've been wondering myself quite a few times what the exact consequences are for being without a government for so long. According to the newspapers it's supposed to be bad for the economy as investors and big companies lose faith in our silly country.
Were there any consequences in the Netherlands? They held the record before Iraq stole it from them I heard.
Nah. Just nothing changes, it remains the same old crap. If we are without "government" that just means there won't be any new laws but the old ones are still in effect and they are still enforced normally.
You're basically just stuck with how it is for 6 months, and then they form a government and... well still nothing really changes, except the record-holder apparently.
This song was part of an asignment he did in a television show about 12 assignments (Like Hercules). This particular asignment was to become a celebrity in Wallonia.
Somewhat related: Sandra Kim was a Wallonian singer and the only Belgian to win the Eurosong festival. Something really petty I always notice in the media: people like her will be referred to as Belgian on Flemish television. However if someone from Flanders wins something or what not that person will be referred to as Flemish.
Famous Flemish person? Yeah he's from Flanders! *gloat*
Famous Wallonian person? No, no famous Belgian. He's from our country *gloat*
Um... yeah... the United States doesn't have a state language. Anywhere. A language-litmus test before you get your name on the ballot would probably be smacked down right quick. Not to mention that even if you don't get your name on the ballot people can still put your name down as a write-in.
So yeah. I find this notion that some regions in Belgium have a language-litmus test to be very... disconcerting. If you get enough votes then it's clear you speak to enough of the population to get the votes.
I find this somewhat surprising. Not wrong or anything, but surprising. I read on these boards some time ago something that implied that someone can't become president of the US if he wasn't born there. (Which I found also surprising.) Or is that merely how a group of people thinks it should be?
I don't know which thread it was but I believe it was about a group of people claiming Obama wasn't born in the US so he couldn't be president. A very strange thing indeed, for why would it even matter when more than half the country wants him to be president anyway?
I guess it'd be funny for exactly two weeks, hehe. Mostly on expence of the Dutch. (Sorry, Pluisjen, it's true!)
What is it with French speakers always starting trouble...
May be a side effect of the language.
I mean, it's ridiculous enough to feel superior for mastering it ;)
Nevermind....
Relique défectueuse!
I think when the Robot revolution comes, Klirshon will enslave you for calling him a defective relic.
Yeah, it's like nobody ever bothered to tell 'em that they ain't special and they ain't at all as important as they think they are. And their language ain't important either. Get over yourselves, French speakin' people. Jeebus.
What's wrong with French? You can scold and swear and call someone the most horrible of names and it'd still sound like you're quoting from the menu of a very fancy restaurant.
Ask anyone. In fact, ask the Merovingian.
And if this Klirshon is really a robot, let him compute the fastest way to get the Flems and the Wahoos to cooperate.
There, back on topic.
What's wrong with French?
My native language is very much read "as written" - most consonants and all vowels never change their sound and you usually read all the letters, with the exception of a few specific pairs.
And then there's a language in which "eau" is read as "oh".
That makes no sense!
My native language is very much read "as written" - most consonants and all vowels never change their sound and you usually read all the letters, with the exception of a few specific pairs.
My native language sneaks up behind other languages and mugs them for spare syntax, loose words and the occasional bit of punctuation.
Pffff. Voilà toute la beauté de cette langue complexe pour des gens complexes aux idées complexes! Les languages simple et vulgaire, nous pouvons laisser ça aux États-Uniens et aux Polonais.
If you really think Polish is that simple, try saying this:
"W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie - i Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie"
Polish is the perfect language to troll foreigners. ;)
Bah. Any non-english language is perfect to troll Americans.
Maybe, but trolling Nazis is much, much more satisfying.
Americans, Nazis, Empire, Reich, what's the dif?
Ahem. On this side of the pond Nazis are still Serious Business.
That said, Americans aren't Nazi enough yet. Some don't even see the difference between nazism and communism.
Totalitarianism, of any sort, is (to paraphrase George Orwell) a boot stamping a human face, forever. That being the case, does it really matter if the boot is on the right foot or the left foot?
If those stars were still here, I'd give you a few right now.
That book mentioned by goldo...
What's wrong with French?
My native language is very much read "as written" - most consonants and all vowels never change their sound and you usually read all the letters, with the exception of a few specific pairs.
And then there's a language in which "eau" is read as "oh".
That makes no sense!
Adorable old man suggests you put this in your pipe and smoke it. Your argument is invalid.
Adorable old man suggests you put this in your pipe and smoke it. Your argument is invalid.
I'm not saying English is particularly easy in this regard; seriously, 5 ways to pronounce "a"?
Totalitarianism, of any sort, is (to paraphrase George Orwell) a boot stamping a human face, forever. That being the case, does it really matter if the boot is on the right foot or the left foot?
If those stars were still here, I'd give you a few right now.
That book mentioned by goldo...
It's a real pity that goldy has no respect for history. Santayana said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." With the great amount of historical documentation that I have referenced, I'd say that goldy chooses to ignore the past, and he will fall under the spell of someone like a Hitler or a Stalin, possibly running an extermination camp for the politically incorrect. I don't want to be in his shoes if that happens.
Mange d'la marde.
Weak sauce buddy, weak sauce.
How did you manage to translate that? It was full of Québec regionalisms.
I'm pretty smart when it comes to languages. Did I mention I minored in Linguistics?
How did you manage to translate that? It was full of Québec regionalisms.
I'm pretty smart when it comes to languages. Did I mention I minored in Linguistics?
Well bravo then.
Is your ego so much in need of validation?
Ring ring!! Ring ring!!!
Mr. Kettle: "hello?"
Mr. Pot: " Hi Kettle, guess what?"
Mr. Kettle: "What?"
Mr. Pot: "You're black!"
Yeah, that kettle-pot thing is kind of weird. Cause it means you do accept the comment. You just say: Yeah, but so are you.
Not the best of come back.
Exactly. It also makes you a hypocrite.
Due to complaints received about this thread, I've closed it. The thread will be reviewed to determine if it should be permanently closed, re-opened, and/or a new thread or threads created in its place.