Copyrights Infringement? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Copyrights Infringement?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
francismartel
Feb 10, 2009 11:53:24 Hello all,

Let me first begin by saying that I have been a roleplaying enthusiast for the past 25 years. I began in this hobby back in 1984 with AD&D, then published by TSR, and I’ve enjoyed a long and successful “career” as a game master. I was also a satisfied customer of Wizards of the Coast (and TSR before that) for all of those years.

Until recently.

Through the years I followed the evolution of the D&D brand and game, moving along with the company through its editions: AD&D 2nd Edition, d20-based D&D 3rd Edition then 3.5 and now, the new revamped D&D 4th Edition. I have invested important sums of money in my hobby, much like many other satisfied customers, without regrets.

Until recently.

Back in 2004 - 2005, as I was creating material for a game of my own, I came up with an original Idea and drew a map, using pen and paper. I still have this map in a protective envelop in my office. That map was then digitized and archived (January 2nd 2006) for ease of use across the different gaming platforms I used back then, such as table-top, online games through PlayByWeb and RPOL.net, and such.

Imagine my surprise when I opened the DMG 4th edition and found what APPEARS TO BE MY WORK in there, without my consent!! The whole story is here (francismartel.wordpress.com)

But what is more furstrating is WotC's unwillingness to even respond to my queries. If someone would ask me to comment on work I created and told me it was infringing, I would respond. I would question and I would seek answers... But not WotC apparently....

So I am asking fellow gamers: Is my story a case of infringement? Am I a David against Goliath?

This thread will be posted to other board as well, because I am seeking as many opinions I can get on this issue...

Thanks all !
#2
Nyronus
Feb 10, 2009 12:10:46 Nice job trying to rally support against a company by posting your claims of serious legal infringement on the company's own forum before you even finish waiting for the reply. I don't know your true intentions, but from here it appears that this is some sort of grandstanding and showboating. It appears horribly immature and low.

Don't be surprised if they don't reply, or if this thread is summarily deleted. Your arguments are pretty shaky. The map doesn't even look remotely similar. Oh no, both towns have a waterfall, and caves (which, if you haven't noticed, often go together), and a lord's house (which is horribly common), and people who work on the river (oh god, people using a readily available natural resource to make a living!).

Yeah. No.

Your either overreacting or a liar. Either way, framing this dispute as you constantly do, as David vs. Goliath, as you vs. the evil thieving company, makes you look like an ass.
#3
ranadiel
Feb 10, 2009 12:15:34 Maybe it is just me, but I don't really see it. A few similarities sure, but I really don't think you have enough for a case here. Have you discussed the matter with a lawyer yet? Really they are the only ones who would be able to tell you if you have anything that is even remotely close to a case.

Heck did any WotC employees even have access to your original material? If they didn't then you are not going to have an easy time, assuming you can even make a case in that situation. Then again, I'm not a lawyer(yet) so what do I know?
#4
ixien_kothar
Feb 10, 2009 12:37:32 Get a lawyer. There are simularities, maybe even enough for a case, but until you talk to a lawyer you are just wasting your time.
#5
francismartel
Feb 11, 2009 11:17:12 Thank you to those who took a moment to read my posts and respond. I appreciate every comments posted in this thread.

I do find some of them a bit harsh, and I can understand the reason behind them , and I'd like to address the issues raised by those comments. So this, basically, is in reply to Nyronus's comments:

Nice job trying to rally support against a company by posting your claims of serious legal infringement on the company's own forum before you even finish waiting for the reply. I don't know your true intentions, but from here it appears that this is some sort of grandstanding and showboating. It appears horribly immature and low.

My idea was that by posting this story to WotC forums, it might be brought to someone's attention and help getting a response. I HAVE waited and even requested follow-up, but to no avail. I'm in customer services for a living and I KNOW acknowledging communications is important. Of course, sometimes getting all the facts together and making an informed response can take time. I understand this and agree. But acknowledging "thanks for your communication, we'll get back to you" is a simple matter. NOT getting such a response makes me wonder why they chose NOT to respond....

As for my true intentions, you know what: I'm not sure myself. I most certainly feel slighted in this case and would welcome the opening of a dialog. I'm certainly not in a position to make trouble, but someone should look into this and tell me something, make a formal comment at least.

Don't be surprised if they don't reply, or if this thread is summarily deleted. Your arguments are pretty shaky. The map doesn't even look remotely similar. Oh no, both towns have a waterfall, and caves (which, if you haven't noticed, often go together), and a lord's house (which is horribly common), and people who work on the river (oh god, people using a readily available natural resource to make a living!).

Why shouldn't I be surprised that they don't reply? When someone comes to me with a problem, I tell them I will look into it and I do just that. If someone took time to come to you with an issue, its simple decency and politeness to respond and acknowledge. You may disagree, and even think there is no case, but a respond is a must. Again, unless there is a reason not to respond. As for the appraisal of the differences, your's is one of the point of views I am getting from different sources. You are not the only one with this view of this situation. However, I also have enough opinions from the other side of the medal to feel I am justified in my endeavor to seek formal comments on this case.

Yeah. No.

Your either overreacting or a liar. Either way, framing this dispute as you constantly do, as David vs. Goliath, as you vs. the evil thieving company, makes you look like an ass.

Yeah.No. ??? I'm not following you here...
Maybe I am overracting, but I most certainly am NOT insulting anyone here. And I am not a liar. Who are you to make that judgment call?
The David and Goliath thing is, I agree, overused and over abused in similar cases. What I meant to reflect with this image is the simple fact that I'm just a family guy trying to open a dialog with a large corporation. Should they feel they need to get ride of me and my case, they have the might of their wealth and corporate powers to smite me. There is nothing I will be able to do if this happens. I think the image is fitting. I am NOT saying that this organisation is evil, far from it. Just that like many large corporation, it may act in a very corporate-like manner and disregard the individual in favor of their corporate politics and targets...

All in all, the only goal here is to get someone's attention and open a dialog. Many comments I am getting all point to getting a lawyer. I agree. But they cost a LOT of money, and this here "david" can't really go that way.

I think it's feasible to have a constructive dialog on this matter without resorting to lawyers and spending tons of cash on something easily resolved.

How? Not sure. A credit recognition is one way of many available to WotC....

We'll see...
#6
kjw
Feb 11, 2009 12:48:30 WotC is not likely to respond, because there is no reason to respond. This is not something 'easily resolved' and to assume it would be is a little delusional of the reality of the situation.

The two maps are about as similar as thousands of other maps that gamers have made for their campaigns. It is the same for monsters and NPCs. WotC is going to design stuff similarly to what some kid has designed for his campaign because there are hundreds of thousands of D&D players drawing stuff up. I discovered similar critters in 3e supplements to things I had designed for my campaigns - it doesn't mean WotC stole the idea, it just means that neither of us was that creative in the first place.

WotC does not want to get in a situation where it has to deal with every kid claiming that WotC stole their ideas. My advice to you is to just consider this a case of parallel development (which it almost certainly is) and drop the issue. No offense, but neither map is particularly brilliant or original enough to justify such a fervor.

WotC is never going to give you credit for the map unless you get a lawyer, litigate, and force a settlement - and in that situation you are just going to be wasting a lot of money as you know that you will lose. WotC also shouldn't get in a dialogue with you except to say - we aren't going to discuss this with you.
#7
EscherEnigma
Feb 11, 2009 13:30:32
I think it's feasible to have a constructive dialog on this matter without resorting to lawyers and spending tons of cash on something easily resolved.

... no, it really isn't. Not when there's claims of copyright infringement.
#8
pigknight
Feb 11, 2009 21:15:27 This is like WoW sue-ing 4e for giving the fighter the ability to use two-handed, one-handed and dual-wielding options.

Waterfall + Cave + Village + Workers = there's THOUSANDS of real life villages like this.
#9
francismartel
Feb 12, 2009 11:05:28 Well, Thank you to those who took the time to read the thread and post comments.

I found the opinions, all of them, expressed herein very insightfull and pretty much at par with what I expected.

I guess the rest of this case is pretty obvious to everybody, and therefore I see no point in continuing to gather comments and opinions through this thread. Continue if you will, but I have gathered what I needed as far as community assistance goes...

Once again, thank you all, your comments are much appreciated.
#10
ranadiel
Feb 12, 2009 12:57:14 .....So out of curiosity, now that you have gotten the community input, what is your planned course of action?
#11
pigknight
Feb 12, 2009 22:15:03 $5 says he realized how stupid he was.
#12
ADHadh
Feb 13, 2009 1:59:47
* Both are located on a river, on one side, with the other side open to the wilderness, with an inn.
* Both have a Lord’s keep in the upper lands.
* Both have falls that effectively cut maritime traffic on the river at that point
* Both need to have goods portaged up and down the cliffs
* Both have caves under the upper part
* Both have island / ruins in the river
* Both have a guild that collects fees for the portaging services

* It would be strange if there wasn't a river near a village.
* Keeps were generally built in high places.
* If you combine a cliff with a river you're going to have a waterfall.
* That's just common sense.
* In a game with "dungeons" in it's name caves are a must (especially with Fallcrest being full of adventure hooks).
* Same as above.
* If there's services, they will be paid for.

Really, those are too general to be called ripped-off. But if you like suing, go sue them.

By the way, river in Bieme shouldn't cover such a wide area, it looks like there was a dam rather than a fall.
#13
rhialto
Feb 13, 2009 6:30:07 Unless you can prove there was a unique factor in your work that coudln;'t be reached from common sense and looking at real places, and that WotC could actually have seen your work, you have no case. By that, I mean taht without those two, it would be summarily dimissed in court.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nor is my character.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 francismartel Feb 10, 2009 11:53:24	Hello all, Let me first begin by saying that I have been a roleplaying enthusiast for the past 25 years. I began in this hobby back in 1984 with AD&D, then published by TSR, and I’ve enjoyed a long and successful “career” as a game master. I was also a satisfied customer of Wizards of the Coast (and TSR before that) for all of those years. Until recently. Through the years I followed the evolution of the D&D brand and game, moving along with the company through its editions: AD&D 2nd Edition, d20-based D&D 3rd Edition then 3.5 and now, the new revamped D&D 4th Edition. I have invested important sums of money in my hobby, much like many other satisfied customers, without regrets. Until recently. Back in 2004 - 2005, as I was creating material for a game of my own, I came up with an original Idea and drew a map, using pen and paper. I still have this map in a protective envelop in my office. That map was then digitized and archived (January 2nd 2006) for ease of use across the different gaming platforms I used back then, such as table-top, online games through PlayByWeb and RPOL.net, and such. Imagine my surprise when I opened the DMG 4th edition and found what APPEARS TO BE MY WORK in there, without my consent!! The whole story is here (francismartel.wordpress.com) But what is more furstrating is WotC's unwillingness to even respond to my queries. If someone would ask me to comment on work I created and told me it was infringing, I would respond. I would question and I would seek answers... But not WotC apparently.... So I am asking fellow gamers: Is my story a case of infringement? Am I a David against Goliath? This thread will be posted to other board as well, because I am seeking as many opinions I can get on this issue... Thanks all !
#2 Nyronus Feb 10, 2009 12:10:46	Nice job trying to rally support against a company by posting your claims of serious legal infringement on the company's own forum before you even finish waiting for the reply. I don't know your true intentions, but from here it appears that this is some sort of grandstanding and showboating. It appears horribly immature and low. Don't be surprised if they don't reply, or if this thread is summarily deleted. Your arguments are pretty shaky. The map doesn't even look remotely similar. Oh no, both towns have a waterfall, and caves (which, if you haven't noticed, often go together), and a lord's house (which is horribly common), and people who work on the river (oh god, people using a readily available natural resource to make a living!). Yeah. No. Your either overreacting or a liar. Either way, framing this dispute as you constantly do, as David vs. Goliath, as you vs. the evil thieving company, makes you look like an ass.
#3 ranadiel Feb 10, 2009 12:15:34	Maybe it is just me, but I don't really see it. A few similarities sure, but I really don't think you have enough for a case here. Have you discussed the matter with a lawyer yet? Really they are the only ones who would be able to tell you if you have anything that is even remotely close to a case. Heck did any WotC employees even have access to your original material? If they didn't then you are not going to have an easy time, assuming you can even make a case in that situation. Then again, I'm not a lawyer(yet) so what do I know?
#4 ixien_kothar Feb 10, 2009 12:37:32	Get a lawyer. There are simularities, maybe even enough for a case, but until you talk to a lawyer you are just wasting your time.
#5 francismartel Feb 11, 2009 11:17:12	Thank you to those who took a moment to read my posts and respond. I appreciate every comments posted in this thread. I do find some of them a bit harsh, and I can understand the reason behind them , and I'd like to address the issues raised by those comments. So this, basically, is in reply to Nyronus's comments: Nice job trying to rally support against a company by posting your claims of serious legal infringement on the company's own forum before you even finish waiting for the reply. I don't know your true intentions, but from here it appears that this is some sort of grandstanding and showboating. It appears horribly immature and low. My idea was that by posting this story to WotC forums, it might be brought to someone's attention and help getting a response. I HAVE waited and even requested follow-up, but to no avail. I'm in customer services for a living and I KNOW acknowledging communications is important. Of course, sometimes getting all the facts together and making an informed response can take time. I understand this and agree. But acknowledging "thanks for your communication, we'll get back to you" is a simple matter. NOT getting such a response makes me wonder why they chose NOT to respond.... As for my true intentions, you know what: I'm not sure myself. I most certainly feel slighted in this case and would welcome the opening of a dialog. I'm certainly not in a position to make trouble, but someone should look into this and tell me something, make a formal comment at least. Don't be surprised if they don't reply, or if this thread is summarily deleted. Your arguments are pretty shaky. The map doesn't even look remotely similar. Oh no, both towns have a waterfall, and caves (which, if you haven't noticed, often go together), and a lord's house (which is horribly common), and people who work on the river (oh god, people using a readily available natural resource to make a living!). Why shouldn't I be surprised that they don't reply? When someone comes to me with a problem, I tell them I will look into it and I do just that. If someone took time to come to you with an issue, its simple decency and politeness to respond and acknowledge. You may disagree, and even think there is no case, but a respond is a must. Again, unless there is a reason not to respond. As for the appraisal of the differences, your's is one of the point of views I am getting from different sources. You are not the only one with this view of this situation. However, I also have enough opinions from the other side of the medal to feel I am justified in my endeavor to seek formal comments on this case. Yeah. No. Your either overreacting or a liar. Either way, framing this dispute as you constantly do, as David vs. Goliath, as you vs. the evil thieving company, makes you look like an ass. Yeah.No. ??? I'm not following you here... Maybe I am overracting, but I most certainly am NOT insulting anyone here. And I am not a liar. Who are you to make that judgment call? The David and Goliath thing is, I agree, overused and over abused in similar cases. What I meant to reflect with this image is the simple fact that I'm just a family guy trying to open a dialog with a large corporation. Should they feel they need to get ride of me and my case, they have the might of their wealth and corporate powers to smite me. There is nothing I will be able to do if this happens. I think the image is fitting. I am NOT saying that this organisation is evil, far from it. Just that like many large corporation, it may act in a very corporate-like manner and disregard the individual in favor of their corporate politics and targets... All in all, the only goal here is to get someone's attention and open a dialog. Many comments I am getting all point to getting a lawyer. I agree. But they cost a LOT of money, and this here "david" can't really go that way. I think it's feasible to have a constructive dialog on this matter without resorting to lawyers and spending tons of cash on something easily resolved. How? Not sure. A credit recognition is one way of many available to WotC.... We'll see...
#6 kjw Feb 11, 2009 12:48:30	WotC is not likely to respond, because there is no reason to respond. This is not something 'easily resolved' and to assume it would be is a little delusional of the reality of the situation. The two maps are about as similar as thousands of other maps that gamers have made for their campaigns. It is the same for monsters and NPCs. WotC is going to design stuff similarly to what some kid has designed for his campaign because there are hundreds of thousands of D&D players drawing stuff up. I discovered similar critters in 3e supplements to things I had designed for my campaigns - it doesn't mean WotC stole the idea, it just means that neither of us was that creative in the first place. WotC does not want to get in a situation where it has to deal with every kid claiming that WotC stole their ideas. My advice to you is to just consider this a case of parallel development (which it almost certainly is) and drop the issue. No offense, but neither map is particularly brilliant or original enough to justify such a fervor. WotC is never going to give you credit for the map unless you get a lawyer, litigate, and force a settlement - and in that situation you are just going to be wasting a lot of money as you know that you will lose. WotC also shouldn't get in a dialogue with you except to say - we aren't going to discuss this with you.
#7 EscherEnigma Feb 11, 2009 13:30:32	I think it's feasible to have a constructive dialog on this matter without resorting to lawyers and spending tons of cash on something easily resolved. ... no, it really isn't. Not when there's claims of copyright infringement.
#8 pigknight Feb 11, 2009 21:15:27	This is like WoW sue-ing 4e for giving the fighter the ability to use two-handed, one-handed and dual-wielding options. Waterfall + Cave + Village + Workers = there's THOUSANDS of real life villages like this.
#9 francismartel Feb 12, 2009 11:05:28	Well, Thank you to those who took the time to read the thread and post comments. I found the opinions, all of them, expressed herein very insightfull and pretty much at par with what I expected. I guess the rest of this case is pretty obvious to everybody, and therefore I see no point in continuing to gather comments and opinions through this thread. Continue if you will, but I have gathered what I needed as far as community assistance goes... Once again, thank you all, your comments are much appreciated.
#10 ranadiel Feb 12, 2009 12:57:14	.....So out of curiosity, now that you have gotten the community input, what is your planned course of action?
#11 pigknight Feb 12, 2009 22:15:03	$5 says he realized how stupid he was.
#12 ADHadh Feb 13, 2009 1:59:47	* Both are located on a river, on one side, with the other side open to the wilderness, with an inn. * Both have a Lord’s keep in the upper lands. * Both have falls that effectively cut maritime traffic on the river at that point * Both need to have goods portaged up and down the cliffs * Both have caves under the upper part * Both have island / ruins in the river * Both have a guild that collects fees for the portaging services * It would be strange if there wasn't a river near a village. * Keeps were generally built in high places. * If you combine a cliff with a river you're going to have a waterfall. * That's just common sense. * In a game with "dungeons" in it's name caves are a must (especially with Fallcrest being full of adventure hooks). * Same as above. * If there's services, they will be paid for. Really, those are too general to be called ripped-off. But if you like suing, go sue them. By the way, river in Bieme shouldn't cover such a wide area, it looks like there was a dam rather than a fall.
#13 rhialto Feb 13, 2009 6:30:07	Unless you can prove there was a unique factor in your work that coudln;'t be reached from common sense and looking at real places, and that WotC could actually have seen your work, you have no case. By that, I mean taht without those two, it would be summarily dimissed in court. Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nor is my character.