Say one with different laws of physics. Perhaps we don't have it because this is a dead magic plane.
That's a definite maybe.
If for no other reason then advanced technolgoy is called magic by people that don't understand it.
That's rather circular, but its about the best you can with the argument you provided.
Of course, there are a variety of fictional settings in which the physics of our world are perfectly suitable for magic - assuming one knows how to use them.
If for no other reason then advanced technolgoy is called magic by people that don't understand it.
One might further expand that to say that the difference between technology and magic is simply whether or not the general populace accepts its existence.
Well, considering there's probably a parallel universe with nothing but shrimp...
Stop with the shrimp! I am trying to do something here!
Stop with the shrimp! I am trying to do something here!
I'm glad somebody got my reference. :D
Whenever somebody mentions anything to do with parallel worlds, I can't help but mention shrimp.
Due to the law of infinites, every permutation of the universe that could exist, does exist in the form of a universe parallel to our own. Therefor, it is assured that in some incarnation of the universe mirrors the Dungeons and Dragons world, be it in an abstract, conventional, or quite literal sense.
Provided laws of physics are not universal across the board, meaning the "universe" in this sense is everything that exists, every parrallel universe (better termed the multiverse) and I thought the many worlds theory is just that, we don't know if they really exist.
Provided laws of physics are not universal across the board, meaning the "universe" in this sense is everything that exists, every parrallel universe (better termed the multiverse) and I thought the many worlds theory is just that, we don't know if they really exist.
If separate universes exist, they would have to have very different physics almost by definition.
If the universes really are causally separated (which they must be by definition), then there would be no reason at all for them to share the laws of physics with our universe. So it would be extremely unlikely they would, and the only real explanation for that occurrence would be if the 'multiverses' were once part of the same universe...but then they're not really different universes anyway. Its the multiverse equivalent of the Horizon Problem.
But yeah, the many worlds idea isn't even a theory. Theories are well tested, for a start, and able to make predictions. At best it's a hypothesis, but even then it's not a very good one because it is by definition unfalsifiable.
Universes are tricky things when you can't look outside of them!
+
biological remote control systems integrated at the genetic level
=
magic
you don't even need the alternate physics.
(I think this is also how it worked in several final-fantasies and one anime I can't recall the name of)
Say one with different laws of physics. Perhaps we don't have it because this is a dead magic plane.
What are you talking about? Magic has been around in this universe for decades now.
What are you talking about? Magic has been around in this universe for decades now.
Give me an example.
Are you a practicing witch/wiccan or something.What are you talking about? Magic has been around in this universe for decades now.
It's called "Science."
If separate universes exist, they would have to have very different physics almost by definition.
If the universes really are causally separated (which they must be by definition), then there would be no reason at all for them to share the laws of physics with our universe.
Except that, when leaving this universe. If say, conservation of energy is correct. Then, in order for it to obeyed, something from another universe must go the other way at the same time. Say you walking through a mirror and your mirror double walks out at the same time. Otherwise that law of our universe has been violated.So it would be extremely unlikely they would, and the only real explanation for that occurrence would be if the 'multiverses' were once part of the same universe...but then they're not really different universes anyway. Its the multiverse equivalent of the Horizon Problem.
What I liked about D&D were there were "universes" which were totally unlike the others, for example, the prime material plane (and if had parallel planes) are just sliders like variations of each other, whereas the astral and ethereal are totally different.But yeah, the many worlds idea isn't even a theory. Theories are well tested, for a start, and able to make predictions. At best it's a hypothesis, but even then it's not a very good one because it is by definition unfalsifiable.
Well, actually all science is theories. What we think of as physical laws or facts are things that have actually been observed (we do not evolution is a fact, we have observed speciation in nature, the theory is HOW it happens. It's a fact as well as a theory) or that we've never seen anything contrary to, Gravity for example,Universes are tricky things when you can't look outside of them!
There is however something we could do, to see them indirectly. For example, a triangle's sum of it's angles will equal 180 degrees, but ONLY IF is it drawn on a flat surface, if they don't equal 180 degrees then space is curved and we're living in a 3D plane in a 4D plane.
It's called "Science."
No, magic is by definition illogical, whereas science uses a defined method and mechanism to yield results. Though, we can't guarantee any of it's results are correct, we can only pick and prune those that best fit what appear to be the facts.
Remember that C Arthur Clark Quote "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indisguishable from magic" which holds true if you are ignorant of how something works. Show your IPhone to an Amazon tribe that has never seen anything electronic before and perhaps you could masquerade as a god.
Give me an example.
I think you missed TA's allusion.
Of course, I may be incorrect also.
That's a definite maybe.
If for no other reason then advanced technolgoy is called magic by people that don't understand it.
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from Technology"
Great, now I'm going to have to have magic in my game just be a form of technology.... Yay nanites!
Except that, when leaving this universe. If say, conservation of energy is correct. Then, in order for it to obeyed, something from another universe must go the other way at the same time. Say you walking through a mirror and your mirror double walks out at the same time. Otherwise that law of our universe has been violated.
Your point on the Theory of Conservation of Energy is impressive! I've been studying here and there on Multiverse Theorem for quite a while, and that point simply never occurred to me! Hmm...I wonder if perhaps Black Holes would tie into it in any way...
I agree that Magic is illogical, but there could certainly be a Science to Magic; Runic structures, spell phrases, etc.
Except that, when leaving this universe. If say, conservation of energy is correct. Then, in order for it to obeyed, something from another universe must go the other way at the same time. Say you walking through a mirror and your mirror double walks out at the same time. Otherwise that law of our universe has been violated.
No, it would not.
That is based upon analysis of a closed system.
The Universe is considered a closed system by default since the other universes do not exist within the mathematical calculations.
If passage from one "universe" to another is possible then each would not be closed to the other and thus conservation of energy would be the conservation of the total energy between the two "universes".
No, magic is by definition illogical, whereas science uses a defined method and mechanism to yield results.
I'm pretty sure every work of fiction involving magic would disagree. I don't think Gandalf's battle strategy for the 4 ****ing spells he used in LOTR (a subject for another thread) was "Hold out my staff and hope for the best."
Remember that C Arthur Clark Quote "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indisguishable from magic" which holds true if you are ignorant of how something works. Show your IPhone to an Amazon tribe that has never seen anything electronic before and perhaps you could masquerade as a god.
This. Also, The Venture Brothers has a few good (also hilarious) examples of technology vs. magic.
But yeah, right now I'm using this magic box. You press a buncha buttons and you can communicate with people thousands of miles away. And they don't even have to be present when you talk to them. They can read your missive at their liesure.
Hell,I was just thinking about rain today. Think about it. Water falls from the freaking sky on a regular basis and our response is complete nonchalance.
Except that, when leaving this universe. If say, conservation of energy is correct. Then, in order for it to obeyed, something from another universe must go the other way at the same time. Say you walking through a mirror and your mirror double walks out at the same time. Otherwise that law of our universe has been violated.
But you can't leave the universe, otherwise it's not a universe. Universes are by definition closed systems.
What I liked about D&D were there were "universes" which were totally unlike the others, for example, the prime material plane (and if had parallel planes) are just sliders like variations of each other, whereas the astral and ethereal are totally different.
Ah, but they're different planes rather than different universes. Different planes, if accessible, must have the same physics (or magic) as the rest.
Well, actually all science is theories. What we think of as physical laws or facts are things that have actually been observed (we do not evolution is a fact, we have observed speciation in nature, the theory is HOW it happens. It's a fact as well as a theory) or that we've never seen anything contrary to, Gravity for example,
No, not all science is theories. In fact, very little science is so well developed as to be labelled a theory. Science starts out with hypotheses. It sounds like you're mixing the colloquial definition of 'theory' into the scientific one.
You're right about facts being observables, though.
There is however something we could do, to see them indirectly. For example, a triangle's sum of it's angles will equal 180 degrees, but ONLY IF is it drawn on a flat surface, if they don't equal 180 degrees then space is curved and we're living in a 3D plane in a 4D plane.
But that's about different dimensions rather than different universes. Additional dimensions are physically consistent with up, left and forward. The same set of rules govern all of them, even if some rules apply in unusual ways to specific dimensions (like the difference between space and time).
Give me an example.
Faceless Butcher
RUMPLESTIX is a thunder thief.
Sure there could be a universe with what we see as "magic". Their laws of energy transfer and likely their number of different energies would probably be much different than ours.
Personaly, I could use a puddlejumper.... Very energy efficient, enough room to hold all my stuff, and can cloak itself so you can't spot the thing
The Venture Brothers has a few good (also hilarious) examples of technology vs. magic.
Dr. Venture: Can't you just 'magic it' away or something?
Orpheus: No more than you could just 'science it' away.
baneofelves: Watch that spoon bend...
I think another quote to quote mention is apt, "There is no spoon (I)."
I like Shadowrun's theory on magic, and yes, they rooted it in the Myan calendar before (1st ed, '89 @ press) all the hype of late concerning the 2012 phenomenon. aka, Us leaving the "5th world" for the 6th, not the BS apocalypse everyone keeps spouting.
Basically, like in nature, there's balance. Magic moves in a sine wave so to speak, every 5k yrs or so. It's nearing it's "zero point" (we're on the low end but rising). Magic has always existed but it's very hard to pull off. However, it gets increasingly easier the closer we reach that threshold.
Show
Ex they use) Daniel "Howling Coyote" organizes Native American resistance (read, insurgency) due to the internment camps (long story) and whips up the Ghost Dance (ritual sorcery of many practioners or "Circle Magic" in D&D lingo), something they did long ago IRL, but of no real consequence. Huge amount of human will, energy, whatever and it might, a very big MIGHT grant you the tiniest of mojo (cuz' we're on the low end of the sine wave and magic is hard to work then)...
However, this time, it works. The magic "drain" is measured in how many of the celebrants die to fuel it. First 21st century shaman whips up massive tornados & volcanic erruption to stop the US Army...eventually, yes, the US sues for peace and cedes a huge chunk of North America back to them. They simply couldn't compete w/ all their super tech and so forth.
However, this time, it works. The magic "drain" is measured in how many of the celebrants die to fuel it. First 21st century shaman whips up massive tornados & volcanic erruption to stop the US Army...eventually, yes, the US sues for peace and cedes a huge chunk of North America back to them. They simply couldn't compete w/ all their super tech and so forth.
I think another quote to quote mention is apt, "There is no spoon (I)."
Well, there is no spoon, but there is the spork
Arcane
Divine
Incarnum
-Iffy here, but you could include Sublime Martial Arts.
Psionics
The difference between all five of these is the explicit source of each form of magic. Arcane draws on some form of energy; whether naturaly occuring in one's blood or through years of study, power through dedication. Divine draws power from nature or the gods, power through faith. Incarnum draws power from departed souls. Sublime Martial arts is physical skills bordering on the supernatural, power through physical perfection. Psionics uses the power of the mind to affect that which is outside the mind.
*- Tome of Magic stuff isn't included as I do not use that book and personaly see it as a rush job book used to keep the 'wizards must be best' fans at bay.
Psionics may bend a spoon... but magic is, by far, superior. Just ask 3.5 wizards.
have you ever read 3ed psionics, the telepath gets as many meat shields as there are enemies, and the kineticist can seriously blow stuff up, and toss around enemies better than the barbarian, from a distance. not to mention almost all the defensive powers psions have stack with each-other: I once had a psion able to get an AC in the upper thirties at first level. A wizard just cant do that. not to mention power-points operated much smoother.
though the locate city bomb can rock if you want to be a one trick pony, I'll concede that.
Uh... psionics IS magic. "A rose by any other name" and all that.
Is it really? Does anything forbid it? Say in a few million years we could evolve psionic powers, at least some sensory-type ones, limited telepathy.
Of course, with that comparison, I'm sure an ORC is going to rush over to 1) delete this post. or 2) Close the thread.
Is it really? Does anything forbid it? Say in a few million years we could evolve psionic powers, at least some sensory-type ones, limited telepathy.
I'm sorry, but as part of a non-prophet organization, I must decline all requests to make predictions for which I have no rational basis to extrapolate from.
Umm. In a few million years there won't be any people.
I think billion is the word you are looking for.
Dinosaurs, when they had dominance on the planet, lived for less than a billion years and suffered several mass extinctions. What makes you think that we will live longer than they?
What makes you think that I ever thought that we'd live longer?
Cyberpunk 4 teh wyn!
Well, correcting "million years" to "billion years" for when there won't be anymore people sorta does imply that in a mere millino years you expect there to still be people, otherwise the correction wouldn't have been needed.
Changing it from millions of years to billions of years changes the death of the human race from a likely hood to a certainty because at a certain point in a few billion years in the future, if our current theories are correct, life will not be able to exist because of the current situation of the universe.
Not sayin' that we'll live that long but by that time there is no way that we can exist so we'll be dead. It's to be certain to happen if we do manage to live that long but that's assumin' we do and whether or not we live that long we'd end up goin' by by once the universe got too stretched out do to expansion and pulled everything apart.
Now I can see how one might see that it "implies" that we'd live that long though I see it as extending the time at which humans will be dead from millions to billions of years, one takes the probability of such occurring and increases it to at which point we reach to time period of the big rip (which is believed that it will happen in a few billion years) at which point everything would basically be ripped apart because the universe is so spread out or what not. So extending the time frame make it go from a possibility of humans being dead to a certainty of them being dead. Who knows when we'll die as a species but by then we'll have died at some point.
Dinosaurs, when they had dominance on the planet, lived for less than a billion years and suffered several mass extinctions. What makes you think that we will live longer than they?
Because we have bubble gum.
WE. SHALL. EXTERMINATE.
EX. TER. MIN. ATE.
:inlove:
Dr. Who fans?! I think I'm in love! :D
:inlove:
I'm in love with myself too.
I'm in love with myself too.
While that may be a healthy habit, we really didn't need to know.
I'm in love with myself too.
Well, that should be okay. They have very nice facilities and treatments to take care of "that" kind of disorders these days. Hush now, just close your eyes and dream of that old farm you used to play on as a kid, playing fetch with your border collie. Shhh, it's okay. Everything will be fine. I promise.
Yes..... it will be ok...
-We will have likely perished due to a pandemic, and it's estimated that if we do go extinct, that'll be the root (CDC). The primary concern is Bird Flu. A zillion to 1 fluke that it mutates just right (having an airborn vector, not just through feces), it'll be over very quickly. Given their great numbers, migratory patterns, etc., there's no way to really stop it.
-Baring that, possible volcanic erruption, maybe even war. And, of course, the thing we always forget, the bigger fish clause. Just as we study apes like Ms. Goodall, I think a more evolved "us" is studying us in some degrees. Perhaps studies will progress to a more invasive level. Who knows. Dominant species moves in, eliminates perceived threat by design or by accident, etc. It's been like that for millenia. Why should our species be any different? We've been king of the hill for a while now, perhaps it's time we had to answer to one of Nature's simplest rules.
-In a billion years, Hell, a million, there won't be "humans" per se. We will likely have evolved beyond our current genetic make-up into a different species altogether. Wasn't that long ago we were erectus, cro-magnon, etc. And given current understanding, we're changing faster than ever, likely due to tech, know-how, etc. Not 500 years ago, we were way shorter, hairier, etc. Seems almost exponential really. A million years? Psionics or magic might be possible. We may not even need bodies.
Heh, on that note...
-We will have likely perished due to a pandemic, and it's estimated that if we do go extinct, that'll be the root (CDC). The primary concern is Bird Flu. A zillion to 1 fluke that it mutates just right (having an airborn vector, not just through feces), it'll be over very quickly. Given their great numbers, migratory patterns, etc., there's no way to really stop it.
-Baring that, possible volcanic erruption, maybe even war. And, of course, the thing we always forget, the bigger fish clause. Just as we study apes like Ms. Goodall, I think a more evolved "us" is studying us in some degrees. Perhaps studies will progress to a more invasive level. Who knows. Dominant species moves in, eliminates perceived threat by design or by accident, etc. It's been like that for millenia. Why should our species be any different? We've been king of the hill for a while now, perhaps it's time we had to answer to one of Nature's simplest rules.-In a billion years, Hell, a million, there won't be "humans" per se. We will likely have evolved beyond our current genetic make-up into a different species altogether. Wasn't that long ago we were erectus, cro-magnon, etc. And given current understanding, we're changing faster than ever, likely due to tech, know-how, etc. Not 500 years ago, we were way shorter, hairier, etc. Seems almost exponential really. A million years? Psionics or magic might be possible. We may not even need bodies.
Pure energy beings are pure conjecture/speculation, we don't even know if they can exist.
In one thousand years, who knows what humanity will be like. We might have integrated cybernetics and be able to shoot plasma bolts from our fingers.
...-In a billion years, Hell, a million, there won't be "humans" per se. We will likely have evolved beyond our current genetic make-up into a different species altogether. Wasn't that long ago we were erectus, cro-magnon, etc. And given current understanding, we're changing faster than ever, likely due to tech, know-how, etc. Not 500 years ago, we were way shorter, hairier, etc. Seems almost exponential really. A million years? Psionics or magic might be possible. We may not even need bodies.
Did you ever see the movie, I think it was called "Powder" or something? It wasn't a great movie, but what you've put forward here is a similar idea.
@ OP: Magic can exist in this universe, you just have to find the right vulture to bind your soul too.
If the human races does go extinct then it will likely be of a cosmic origin. There are more things and more powerful things that threaten all life here on earth than just asteroids and comets.
We got about 7 billion years to go.
So when's that stoopid sun s'posed to burn out anyway?
I believe it's suppose to reach it's red giant phase in about 4 to 5 billions years. It then should be able to live for several (hundred?) million years as a red giant before becoming a white dwarf.
I believe it's suppose to reach it's red giant phase in about 4 to 5 billions years. It then should be able to live for several (hundred?) million years as a red giant before becoming a white dwarf.
So what you're sayin' is I shouldn't make any long-term arrangements in the hopes that the sun will die before I have to pay for them? :P
Don't let Cthulhu read this thread though. I lost to him in poker and promised to pay him back 'when the sun's flames die out'.
So when's that stoopid sun s'posed to burn out anyway?
According to Doctor Who, when the investors stop investing.