| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1DralenanJan 26, 2010 7:00:09 | Just read a news article about D&D...a man in prison had his D&D books taken away, because the prison felt the game promoted gang activity. So he sued, and just lost his suit against the prison. Kind of a short but interesting article... www.wkowtv.com/global/story.asp?s=118768... |
| #2greatsword_rogueJan 26, 2010 7:17:29 | I don't know what kind of game they were playing, but if you look at the average game, that's pretty ridiculous. One would think it would actually improve their behavior. |
| #3EscefJan 26, 2010 7:19:55 | It's been long known that most prisons ban D&D. The usual explanation being that the position of DM is considered a leadership position, thus it puts one inmate in charge of other inmates, which is forbidden by the policies of most prisons. Back when Dragon Magazine was still run by Paizo they renamed their letters section to "Prison Mail", because most of the non-email letters they got came from people who where doing time. |
| #4blake_marloweJan 26, 2010 7:23:03 | there's a discussion of this over at the volokh conspiracy, for those interested. clearly, the prison's argument is some cunning variation of the chewbacca defense...i mean, seriously: a gaming group resembles a gang structure? cuz if that's actually true, apparently my group's been slacking! ed |
| #5EscefJan 26, 2010 7:31:38 | Amazingly enough, I can see some similarities between a D&D adventuring group and a terrorist organization. Both contain a group of individuals who place themselves in harm's way and have members who have specialties and roles within the group. Is it a stretch? A bit, yes. But given that even the most mild mannered of geeks can enter a frothing rage over the game, would you, as a prison warden, want inmates enraged and fighting with each other? Yeah, because people in prison are just so well known for their ability to resolve conflict in a civilized manner. |
| #6kamikaseiJan 26, 2010 7:45:31 | Amazingly enough, I can see some similarities between a D&D adventuring group and a terrorist organization. Both contain a group of individuals who place themselves in harm's way and have members who have specialties and roles within the group. That's an awfully low bar for resembling a terrorist organization. Seems to me much of any given military would clear it. |
| #7NovacatJan 26, 2010 7:49:23 | If the prison guards have even the slightest problem with inmates playing D&D, I'm 150% with them. I say 150%, because even if the prison guards don't care, I would still favor prison inmates not being allowed to have gaming materials in prison. It's supposed to be a punishment, not a vacation. |
| #8blake_marloweJan 26, 2010 7:52:09 | i would think that being locked up with some big, violent and very unpleasant people is itself a pretty considerable punishment, myself. ed |
| #9EscefJan 26, 2010 7:53:57 | Amazingly enough, I can see some similarities between a D&D adventuring group and a terrorist organization. Both contain a group of individuals who place themselves in harm's way and have members who have specialties and roles within the group. You could also see similarities between a D&D adventuring group and a special forces unit. But military as a whole? No. Given that I just got out of the military, have played D&D for over 20 years, and have spent time doing counter-terrorism intel work I'd say I'm at least as qualified as anyone else to say there are parallels. |
| #10NovacatJan 26, 2010 8:07:04 |
As it stands, I find this attitude to be ignorant and offensive. If it was a friend or family member of mine that Mr. Singer had killed, I would be frothing at you right now. Anything to make a murderer's life less comfortable is something I can support. |
| #11JustTerrorItJan 26, 2010 8:11:55 | Just read a news article about D&D...a man in prison had his D&D books taken away, because the prison felt the game promoted gang activity. So he sued, and just lost his suit against the prison. It does promote gang violence. But not in real life. It's not right, in my opinion, that they could say that this promotes gang violence. It's probably preventing more gang violence than it promotes, being that most of the things that involve violence are imaginary. I don't even play D&D (Magic only), but keeping the "violence" in one's imagination is probably a very good outlet that would stop people from enacting out violence in real life due to the lack of anything better to do. Jail has got to be less exciting than not being in jail. |
| #12JustTerrorItJan 26, 2010 8:16:28 | It's supposed to be a punishment, not a vacation. I see where you're coming from with this, but being in jail is pretty bad. Having a D&D book won't make it any better. Not having freedom is a punishment that most really can't imagine until they've actually experienced it. Being escorted everywhere, told where to be and at what time, and having every door and passage immediately locked and hardly seeing the light of day is terrible. D&D won't save you. Nor will it make it in any way resemble a "vacation." |
| #13boraxeJan 26, 2010 8:27:27 | Amazingly enough, I can see some similarities between a D&D adventuring group and a terrorist organization. Both contain a group of individuals who place themselves in harm's way and have members who have specialties and roles within the group. Is it a stretch? A bit, yes. A bit? By that rationale a football team resembles a terrorist group far more closely as the players are actually do things, not just pretending. But given that even the most mild mannered of geeks can enter a frothing rage over the game, would you, as a prison warden, want inmates enraged and fighting with each other? Yeah, because people in prison are just so well known for their ability to resolve conflict in a civilized manner. I thought prison was all tea and scones. |
| #14EscefJan 26, 2010 8:27:45 | Honestly, the problem with the prison system is that it focuses so much on the punishment aspect, and not on rehabilitation. The goal of punishment is enlightenment. Prisoners need to learn why what they did was wrong and not to do it again. The prison system in the US fails to do that, hence the large number of repeat offenders. |
| #15EscefJan 26, 2010 8:29:18 | Amazingly enough, I can see some similarities between a D&D adventuring group and a terrorist organization. Both contain a group of individuals who place themselves in harm's way and have members who have specialties and roles within the group. Is it a stretch? A bit, yes. C'mon, Dave, you should know by now that I've a gift for understatement. |
| #16ViolenceJackJan 26, 2010 8:30:06 |
The opinion on what the purpose of prison is varies, but many people have and do believe that prison is meant not only as a punishment, but to rehabilitate while keeping society from further harm. Making them less comfortable to no purpose aside from punishment doesn't help with the whole rehabilitation thing. As it happens, D&D is probably no help in rehabilitation and not that big a hardship... but still, they're already being punished by being confined. It is not a vacation, not fun, to be in prison even with some luxuries present. Having some luxuries is probably quite necessary for the rehabilitation angle, which is important if that prisoner is one day going to be released. |
| #17NovacatJan 26, 2010 8:31:53 | Honestly, the problem with the prison system is that it focuses so much on the punishment aspect, and not on rehabilitation. The goal of punishment is enlightenment. Prisoners need to learn why what they did was wrong and not to do it again. The prison system in the US fails to do that, hence the large number of repeat offenders. I cannot disagree with the bolded statement any more than I already do. The goal of a parent punishing a child is enlightenment. The goal of society punishing the evil is justice. However, I agree with you that our prison system fails at that. The high rate of repeat offenders is because our prisons are too comfortable. (I recognize that this is a gross oversimplification of the issue, but that is, in my opinion, the primary reason.) |
| #18blake_marloweJan 26, 2010 8:50:19 | novacat quoth: well, that's unfortunate--but then again, i find your attitude troglodytic in the extreme. and since i have no idea who this singer is to whom you refer, i submit that your anger is poorly directed here. you're clearly honked off about something to provoke such an extreme reaction. and before you say that i'm misreading or the like, consider this: novacat quoth: because prisons are filled exclusively with murderers and other violent felons? b/c within this sentence can be found support for iron maidens and thumbscrews. those make an inmate's life less comfortable. so do shankings. are those too things you support? i'm not being glib: i don't know a blessed thing about your views re: inmates. but if these implications are at all accurate, it's clear that any further interaction between us on the subject will not yield productive discussion. ed |
| #19Bond_James_BondJan 26, 2010 8:57:36 |
Well this might be your opinion, but from my knowledge this is not backed up by any serious research of criminal behaviour. As much as there is a human need (in many) for punishment in the sense of "revenge" and making the life of the inmates as hard as possible because of the crimes they committed, there is no evidendence that this will prevent them from further crimes. To the contrary, actually. If you don`t treat inmates with human decency you`ll have no chance of making them functional members of the society after their release at all. In fact, I would guess that playing D&D (or any other pen and paper rpg) would be a good idea for encouraging social behaviour between inmates and might teach them valuable lessons on things like cooperation. That is, of course, only if their way of playing D&D is remotely the same as I know and play it. |
| #20scypioJan 26, 2010 9:11:57 | I have no problem with banning DnD from prisons. Roleplaying games are not rights and if there is any reason at all to ban it, then I'm fine with banning it. It can be as simple as they don't want inmates to organize for long periods of times and plan stuff. Whatever, I don't know much about prisons. But DnD is not such a core element of someone's life that it should be guaranteed in prison. |
| #21NovacatJan 26, 2010 9:14:37 | novacat quoth: Actually, because the news story in question is about a murderer. And, Blake_Marlowe, I would appreciate if you wouldn't take my over-generalized statements and construe wild conclusions about me being in favor of torture.
My serious research of criminal behavior suggests that a murderer is less likely to murder again if they're six feet under. To the contrary, actually. If you don`t treat inmates with human decency you`ll have no chance of making them functional members of the society after their release at all. In the case of murders, rapists, etc., I have no interest in making them functional members of society. I have an interest in making sure they never breathe another free breath, if they actually keep breathing at all. In fact, I would guess that playing D&D (or any other pen and paper rpg) would be a good idea for encouraging social behaviour between inmates and might teach them valuable lessons on things like cooperation. That is, of course, only if their way of playing D&D is remotely the same as I know and play it. Well, on this point you and I may have some level of agreement. Keeping prison inmates occupied, to the extent that it makes the guards' jobs easier is something to which I am not opposed. However, I am actively supportive of removing pleasures from inmates if the guards have even the slightest inkling that it may make their job any more difficult or dangerous. I disagree with the case that D&D is gang-like, but that said, I'm not on the "front line", and I'll defer judgement of what is or is not potentially dangerous in a prison situation to those that are. |
| #22roxlimnJan 26, 2010 9:22:56 | Novacat: Whatever those prisons are supposed to be doing, they're not doing it right, because there are way too many career criminals and repeat offenders. If our goal is to punish and for "justice," then prison should be Hell on Earth - genuine, cruel, and unimaginable torture from entrance to exit. In fact, here's a foolproof way to stop repeat offenders: operate on them for 12 hours without anesthetics. Paralyze them. Our medical knowledge is such that we can prevent death from massive amounts of pain, without actually relieving that pain all that much. In fact, you can increase the horrific nature of the practice by propping their eyes open and having them watch, helpless, as you quite literally, flay the flesh from their bones, one fiber at a time. I'm fairly confident that such treatment will meet your standards for punishment, and it only requires a 12 hour period and one confinement. It can be done relatively safely, and the vivisection of the condemned will provide immense benefits for the medical profession. Whichever of these criminals goes through the experience will almost assuredly rather commit suicide rather than go through it again - I can almost guarantee it. Furthermore, they will either be largely rehabilitated or they will die because they'll suffer from severe post-traumatic stress disorder and be completely unable to fend for themselves financially. Either way, they will no longer be a threat to society. Punishment and rehabilitation in one. Your ideal setup? |
| #23NovacatJan 26, 2010 9:26:56 | I'm fairly confident that such treatment will meet your standards for punishment I would like to know why you and blake_marlowe seem to extrapolate from an anti-comfort statement that I want prisoners to suffer unholy, inhuman terror. Your hyperbole is hardly amusing. |
| #24roxlimnJan 26, 2010 9:34:10 | Novacat: No hyperbole. I'm serious. You're advocating the removal of positive, rehabilitative measures in prisons in the name of vengeance. Well, if it's vengeance that we're after, why spend thousands of dollars beating it out of these underserving people over years, while paying for the board, lodging, and guards, not to mention state-of-the-art monitors and such? Free health care, too. That's unnecessarily expensive. If you draw out all the vengeance you want in 12 hours, it's much most cost-efficient, no? |
| #25NovacatJan 26, 2010 9:39:48 | Novacat: I defy you to find any statement of mine that mentions vengeance. In the case of murderers, rapists, etc. (the group of criminals I call "capital criminals"), I'm not interested in rehabilitative measure. I posit that they are not "disabled", and thus cannot be rehabilitated. However, and I want to be very clear about this, torture is not justice. I am opposed to torture. I do not believe torture is right. I do not support torturing prison inmate, regardless their crime. If I saw someone torturing someone else, I would stop them. Now, I am going to interpret any further attempt to make me look like a torture-monger to be trolling. |
| #26roxlimnJan 26, 2010 9:51:13 | Novacat: Eh. Your call. Just positing the logical conclusion, as I saw it. If you're not interested in punitive measures, and you're not interested in rehabilitation, then why is it right that a murderer be prohibited from playing D&D? We're not interested in vengeance, and we're not interested in rehabilitating him. Clearly, the best thing to do is to billet him in a reasonably comfortable environment until such time as we can execute him, no? He can play D&D until then, right? |
| #27NovacatJan 26, 2010 9:54:06 | Just positing the logical conclusion, as I saw it. I am staggered by your logic. If you're not interested in punitive measures ...and by your reading comprehension skills. |
| #28roxlimnJan 26, 2010 10:00:57 | Rather than attack me and insult me, why not engage in conversation? Why are we incarcerating these men in the first place? There are three possible reasons: 1. Segregation from society 2. Punitive 3. Rehabilitative Segregation is self-limited and ultimately temporary. You can't profitably hold men and women doing unproductive activities and expect not to be a burden to society. Eventually, you will have to create a sponsored state in which to exile criminals within the country in question, or spend too much resources segregating such people without any end in sight. You are not interested in rehabilitation. You are not interested in vengeance. So what is left? Execution as a form of segregation is definitive, and cheap. It is a realistic solution. However, if we're not interested in rehabilitation or vengeance, then there is no need to be punitive about billeting or supervisory action until such time that such individuals can be executed. Ideally, you will want them working at full capacity until such time as their execution is due, to maximize their productivity for the good of society. What good does withholding D&D do, exactly? |
| #29NovacatJan 26, 2010 10:08:01 | Rather than attack me and insult me, why not engage in conversation? Because if your previous posts are any indication, what you consider conversation is a laughable attempt to paint me some kind of hyper-sadist lunatic, and establish my incredibility by taking one statement of mine out of context, and inventing the rest of my position as it suits your agenda. And that, sir, is rude. |
| #30EscherEnigmaJan 26, 2010 10:08:19 | Just read a news article about D&D...a man in prison had his D&D books taken away, because the prison felt the game promoted gang activity. Well, a typical party of adventurers is a roving band of murderous hobos. A bit more nomadic then usual gangs, but I can see the similarities. On another note, NovaCat, whatever your own feelings on the matter, you have to see the false conviction rate and realize that indiscriminate treatment of felons is very likely to submit the undeserving, no? |
| #31death_isthe_beginingJan 26, 2010 11:27:25 |
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| #32blake_marloweJan 26, 2010 12:07:10 | novacat quoth: could it possibly be related to the fact that in the case of violent felons you actually made the statement that you don't care whether they live or die? that kind of hardline stance doesn't exactly inspire a sense that you would be an advocate for prisoner rights, you know. but since you’ve already clarified that your original statement was overly general, i’ll confess i’m curious exactly what you consider the platonic ideal for the average day of an inmate. in your ideal world, how would an inmate spend the average day? feel free to be as detailed or abstract as you like. ed |
| #33EscherEnigmaJan 26, 2010 13:52:33 | Personally I'm in favor of indentured servitude, but that might just be a result of chafing at the inefficiency of putting people into "time-out". |
| #34generalhenryJan 26, 2010 13:57:26 | I once made a d20 into a shiv |
| #35toastedamphibianJan 26, 2010 15:33:32 | I would like to know why you and blake_marlowe seem to extrapolate from an anti-comfort statement that I want prisoners to suffer unholy, inhuman terror. Your hyperbole is hardly amusing. Allow me to illuminate: Anything to make a murderer's life less comfortable is something I can support. See the "...make a murderer's life less comfortable is something I can support." suggests that you are in favore of making the lives of murderers less comfortable and the "Anything..." part declares that you feel any such thing is acceptable, you know, without limits and without implying any kind of adherence to descency. In other words, because you directly declared yourself as such. "Unholy, inhuman terror" tends to make people most uncomfortable and as such it is logical to assume that you could support it, by yoru own statments. Reading stupid sayings literally is so much more fun than trying to determine exactly what someone meant to say, but did not. |
| #36EscefJan 26, 2010 15:36:40 | Did it occur to you that a bad environment for the prisoners is a bad environment for the guards? Prisoners must be treated humanely, else we risk turning their wardens into even bigger monsters than their charges. Most prisoners end up back on the street at some pont. I would rather they learned how to get by in the world and gained the wisdom to do so. While I believe in the death penalty, I do not believe in using it lightly. As was written by Tolkien, "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." |
| #37toastedamphibianJan 26, 2010 15:36:49 | I once made a d20 into a shiv Sweet, got pics? |
| #38IdolisJan 26, 2010 16:27:31 | I was once the ward of the criminal justice for a serious violent crime and I can tell you, that prison is no picnic. The funny thing is when I was in we weren't allowed to have dice which for all intents and purposes banned D&D. But we were told that it was because dice could be used to gamble. |
| #39zombie_babiesJan 27, 2010 12:13:04 | Yeah, the main reason I've always heard for D&D being banned in prisons is the gambling angle Idolis mentioned. To me, that's a perfectly valid reason to pull the game. I have, however, seen stuff written by ex-cons stating that they found ways around the no dice rule. In one case, the game was defacto banned because of the no dice rule. The prisoners found a way to use some sort of paper construct to achieve the desired randomness and would play covertly. Cuz if the guards saw the paper stuff, they'd take it. In other cases, they'd play in full view because most guards had no idea what they were doing and, since they didn't have dice, they'd not know to take the paper stuff. I've also heard of sympathetic guards helpin' out by turning a blind eye and the like. In any event, there are several perfectly valid reasons to ban D&D in prisons. Dice are one. Personally, I think there's a few sides to this. One, the prisoners get to spend their time doing something fun that also keeps them stationary and their attention. That's good. Two, it gets inmates together and teaches them that, in this game, conflict resolution through theft and violence is perfectly acceptable. That's not good but doesn't have to be bad - after all, plenty of us play the game and are not criminals. Three, it gets inmates together and gives them an opportunity to plan all sorts of activities - either openly or through code. That, of course, can be awful, and it's one reason I'd agree with banning the game. Anyhoo, you need to look at this from multiple angles. It's possibly not simply a case of recreation. |
| #401_ton_ghostJan 27, 2010 15:04:48 | The punishment should fit the crime... Rehab & punishent are merely concepts, not polarized points of contention...which, sadly, is all the f'ing rage these days. It's all relative. "Time served" in American penal system might get you street cred for your highly anticipated record deal months later (rep'rasent, yo!), but time served in a Turkish one? I trust a few of you saw "Midnight Crossing", no? They will do practically anything not to ever have to go back. Still, polarized public opinion: no longer are those that command the public eye content w/ actual debate and careful dissection of 'x'. You are EITHER a red state OR a blue state. Pro-life OR pro-choice. WITH the terrorists or AGAINST them. The only real maxim I'd endorse in this light is stupid or reasonable, something we've found in short order this century. Being on 1 side or the other keeps it simple w/ clearly defined lines of aggression...while wiping out a host of gray area. And in those ethers, those in-between of public discourse, a great deal of enlightenment is broomed aside in favor or more talking heads and their rhetoric of dynamic opposites. Or, if you prefer, you're easier to account for, keep tabs on, and manipulate if you have but 2 choices, not a host thereof. And freedom of choice was once as American as mom & apple pie. Now, you can have a dead beat dad & a hot pocket... On rehab/punishment, I think, to boil it down to its core; conditioned response(s). Pavlov should've been a warden @ Ryker's Island, or, Hell, Gitmo, really. LIke it matters. Point is, when you want to phase out an undesirable behavior, your hammer the point home w/ negative reinforcement so that it (the human animal) associates the bad w/ the bad. Simple is preferable in many lights, and I'm of the opinion, this is no exception. When a plan becomes too complicated, there is that much more chance of failure. K.I.S.S. isn't just for gaming...in prison or otherwise. Some call that punishement, but it's relative to the eye of the beholder (incarcerated vs. the free). You do that w/ a child to raise it, disciplining it (negative) for tracking in mud, then, rewarding it (positive reinforcement) when it cleans up the mess as it should. We're human animals after all, and despite this much vaunted sentience I keep hearing about, this is largely how we learned in those formative years, Pavlovian or no. Punishment is the negative reinforcement to illustrate the transgression in question. Rehab, if at all tenable, and often, it's not, is the positive reinforcement. The yin/yang of the judicial system. |
| #41nephliteJan 27, 2010 16:28:26 | That sounds good 1-ton-ghost, but we don't reward them in Prison. We just punish. Serious, I kinda like the idea that there are D&D gangs. Eventually we won't have Crips and Bloods, but d6's and d4's in the future. Maybe even a D20 gang. |
| #42toastedamphibianJan 27, 2010 17:15:43 | d4's? Really? People are fans of d4's..... I always thought it would come down to the d12's vs the d6's |
| #43lhockeeJan 27, 2010 17:18:02 | I'll spill blood for the d100 Gang. Represent, yo! |
| #44Robin_HoodlumJan 27, 2010 17:54:49 | A total crock of crap. Just another way to further punish prisoners. Yeah, that's smart.... take away their games so the can use all that free time for other stuff... like makin' shanks, escape plans, and violence. That is so ****ed up... |
| #45EscherEnigmaJan 27, 2010 17:55:14 | In other news, there's a thread about this in the Community Board. [link] Does that mean prisoner's rights is a kosher topic? |
| #46Robin_HoodlumJan 27, 2010 17:57:08 | Does that mean prisoner's rights is a kosher topic? Let's assume it is until told otherwise. I have firsthand knowledge on the subject... |
| #47EscherEnigmaJan 27, 2010 18:15:10 | Let's assume it is until told otherwise. See, that's what I thought about censorship and banned books in libraries, and we all know how that turned out... |
| #48lhockeeJan 27, 2010 18:16:21 | That's how the world works most times though, not saying I agree. |
| #49dragomJan 28, 2010 1:32:10 | Quadruple Post! 4 threads makes it hard to bring up this point everywhere. Muraski also has extensive The defenses testimony kinda falls apart once you realize that this man is trained to deal with small cabal's of cultists intent on evil doing in the world, most likely to appease their dark gods. |
| #50ADHadhJan 28, 2010 8:01:48 | Here's some info from a different site: www.insidebayarea.com/weird-news/ci_1426... Considering the guy is doing time for frist-dgree intentional homicide, I don't pity him. |
| #51boraxeJan 28, 2010 8:05:45 | I think everyone is missing the really importnat point in this story: a D&D player committed murder, beating another man to death with a sledgehammer, and the media didn't blame it on D&D! |
| #52ADHadhJan 28, 2010 8:22:07 | I think everyone is missing the really importnat point in this story: a D&D player committed murder, beating another man to death with a sledgehammer, and the media didn't blame it on D&D! He forgot to put his beard and horned helmet on, or he's just too tall. |
| #53EscherEnigmaJan 28, 2010 8:28:01 | I think everyone is missing the really importnat point in this story: a D&D player committed murder, beating another man to death with a sledgehammer, and the media didn't blame it on D&D! 'course not, 'cause then they'd have to reconcile "lives in mother's basement" with "beat another man to death with sledgehammer" and that's just too much to handle. Some concepts just can't be shown on TV, after all. |
| #541_ton_ghostJan 28, 2010 15:06:00 | 1st degree, eh? Wow, he certainly pushed the envelope as that's hard as Hell to get a conviction upon. Well, if the shoe fits (his prison senetence)...I know, I know. He doesn't deserve the recreational outlet, just a long, drawn out tenure in a cold, lonely place (kind of like a grave, no?). Having witnessed/testified in a murder trial (long story) where the victim was executed in a kneeling position, point blank, from behind, and watching BS legal acrobatics break that down into manslaughter (really?!) for these "misunderstood youths" (15, 15, & 17 respectively) w/ 45 pre-existing charges between them, was revolting. Spin is the new legal currency these days. Murder, it's pretty b/w in most applications, just not when you get lawyers out to make a name for themselves and toss out things like scalp powder burns, gang mandated killings, etc. This guy is likely getting what he deserves, and sentencing, for proof positive violent crime, IMO, is light, whereas sentencing for most drug possessions (bulk of prison population) is far too heavy. But I'm not the 1st guy to say our national priorities are screwed up, even w/ serious crimes we've considered since the discover of fire. Normally, for your typically incarcerated folk, drug offenders namely, I would recommend gaming in no small matter. Consider: prisoners concentrated in a small area where you can keep tabs on them, actually using some qualitative/quantitative skills, teamwork, fairly disarming, etc. Violent, sex-based criminals, the truly dangerous ones, nuh uh. You lost your U.S. privledges when you took someone else's, open/shut. It's like the guys in the yard, the undisputed chess masters of cell block 'D'. Too busy gunning for a match vs. Deep Blue (or Johnny Sweet Cheeks down the row) to sucumb to a sea of BS rhetoric (**** Nation, Muslim fundies, gang 'x', etc). Keeps you docile and focused upon something other than becoming a better criminal, which, is pretty much what most jail time does. "Con college" is kind of a funny quip, until you realize recidivism rates, especially in this (US) country. And believe me, you need friends double quick once "inside". Gaming, at large, for the rank-and-file con is probably a decent idea. Cheaper than cable TV, weights, and the like I'd wager. Roll w/ that. We have the highest concentration of incarcerated ppl in the entire planet. 300 million of us, in the richest, most freedom-endowing (well...) nation on earth. I think "wtf" sums it up nicely. Violent offenders (like this guy) should be on a high fat diet w/ minimal exercise, no TV/net privledges, but, perhaps visitations from approved family (no conjugal visits though...I expect him to receive those in the shower). Books should be made available, particularly those from legal libraries, but I do not EVER want to hear about a con getting a free college tuition from our legal system when honest, law-abiding citizens can barely afford it as is. Query, what did everyone think of the 10/20yr student loan proposals in the State of the Union address? |
| #55dragomJan 28, 2010 17:42:34 | 1_ton_ghost - People need to actually live a life worth living when they leave prison. Otherwise you should be advocating a simple and fast death penalty. |
| #56MechaPilotJan 28, 2010 21:47:25 | Quoted from:www.nytimes.com/2010/01/27/us/27dungeons... |
| #571_ton_ghostJan 29, 2010 14:32:53 | Dragom: People need to actually live a life worth living when they leave prison. Otherwise you should be advocating a simple and fast death penalty. I think that goes w/out saying. However, excuse my callousness, I'm more concerned w/ regular citizens having lives worth living than trying to patch up those that have already compromised their own (and often enough, their victim's). D&D isn’t going to be the straw that broke the camel’s back, you know? It’s a recreational outlet, not a way of life. There are bigger fish to fry in light of this -> Gainful employment usually helps kick start a “life worth living”, not gaming. Would you want to employ a violent felon in your business? Hence, job opportunities being crap once “outside”. Why risk the safety of your co-workers/family, a potential nasty lawsuit, or, you know, not give an honest, and likely, better qualified citizen job ‘x’? This is why ppl need to reconsider their lives, and how it'll affect their loved ones, prior to committing a crime. And if it victimizes another's worthy life w/ malice of forethought, then my purse of forgiveness is empty. And plz, do not presume what I should be advocating; I’m well aware of what happens to a friend’s head vs. a .45 slug as the measure of my resolve (see prior post). Product of my environment, plz do not think less of me. It's just a very telling moment in an otherwise crap lifetime I lead and the end of a very promising one cut short by 3 that were already screwed (as minors no less). I’m not an expert on the judicial system by any means, and I understand/respect that, however, what I do advocate is 1) Justice takes priority to convenience, and 2) As before, the punishment should fit the crime per our mandate in this country (once upon a time). Mecha Pilot: "Dungeons & Dragons could “foster an inmate’s obsession with escaping from the real-life correctional environment, fostering hostility, violence and escape behavior,” prison officials said in court. That could make it more difficult to rehabilitate prisoners and could endanger public safety, they said." Could…yeah, maybe. But gaming XP since ’84, legal exposure, American culture, etc, IMO, says, “Doubt it.” I wonder how many qualified shrinks familiar w/ the game or at least that niche culture gave “expert witness” on the matter. I would not endorse gaming privledges for violent offenders is the short of it. Anyone else, so be it. I'd rather see more inmates in the library gaming than in the yard becoming potentially more dangerous threats once outside. In my many years of RPGs, I’ve found that there is a higher incidence of criminal mentality, let alone illuminating criminal records, as a percent, in non-gamers. At least in the many different social circles I’ve trafficked in whom game, gamers are typically smarter, the bulk being college educated, well employed, pay taxes, vote, homeowners (now) most have families (now), but spotless records, save for the occaisional misdemeanor possession, traffic violation, things like that. Basically, most (not all) pen & papers gamers are like a cop’s wet dream. They’re practically model citizens. Old roomie's bro is a cop, hates gaming, loves gamers, endorses it heartilly. Many of the extra police in Indie I spoke w/ during Gencon spoke highly too. Apart from the extra traffic 30k+ ppl bring, they also bring in a ton of revenue for the city, are usually quite well behaved (if not peculiar to the locals), and illicit a lot of growth for an otherwise excellent city. Big fan there. D&D doesn't foster dreams of escaping from prison. The fear of being stabbed, raped, and beaten does this just fine on its own. Ah, well said. I think I recall saying something prior about negative reinforcement. Those all qualify in spades. Freedom, time w/ your family, getting a job, sleeping/eating when you want, those are positive ones you earn when outside I guess. IDK. There was a time when prisons were places of dread, now, moderately tolerable in some venues, especially now w/ such copious numbers of our own citizens filling them to capacity (and then some). |
| #58roxlimnMar 04, 2010 13:50:17 | The question has never been "What do they deserve?" I do not care for what people deserve. The question is "What in the blue blazes are we going to do with these guys?" I cannot give people who deserve better what they deserve. I do not care to give people who deserve hell hell, because I am far too busy just keeping the darned roof above everyone's heads! Novacat mistakenly assumes that I'm trying to paint him in a negative light. I am not. I'm simply interpreting his statements in literal fashion, as a manner of going about what to do with incarcerated men - innocent or otherwise. In other words, the watchword should be practicality, not morality. Church and state has profitably been deemed separate and should always operate separately. In the case of D&D, it's not what people deserve that I think should be operating in prison systems - it's how people can change. It does not make sense to give lifelong hell to people because it is much too expensive. It is much cheaper to condense whatever hell we choose to give them in as little time as possible so as to get them out to doing something that's actually beneficial to society rather than sitting behind locked doors consuming heat and food and manpower that should be going elsewhere! If a lifetime of being raped and beaten is what it takes, then multiply that horror 50 times and get it done in one year! That way the stupidhead can go back out into the world and plant wheat for people to eat. If we don't EVER plan on him ever re-entering society productively, then kill him or exile him. Feeding criminals food and sheltering them in heat and comfort is crazy, when perfectly serviceable and innocent men die of starvation and cold. |
| #59sobchakMar 04, 2010 21:35:55 | Our prison system has always had a struggle between rehabilatation and punishment. We lean towards punishment which produces socially maladaptive ex-cons. Well played D&D in prison could be very positive. Team work? Roleplaying? Communication? Planning? Ramifications of violence? Imagination? This story made me want to go and volunteer to run a game in our local prison, but it would never be allowed. You put me in prison with access to a good game of D&D, and I wouldn't be rioting, or joining any real gangs. This story is just a sad statement about prison and D&D stereotypes in general. |