{Original thread: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...}
58402108 wrote:
It's a hobby. People schedule their time to accomadate their hobbies, whether it be gaming (board, video, card, etc...), mountain biking, wrestling, bird-watching or whatever. If they want other people to join in, then they try to arrange their time so they can do these things together.
The activity doesn't matter. It's time management, and making time for fun. What's the point of contention?
"Guys, I like to play [insert video game of your choice] 4 days a week, and game night just happens to be one of those nights. Can you all rearrange you work/school/home schedules so I can play my game?"
"No. You are welcome to play with us on that night and we would love to have you but if you have better things to do, go for it."
edit I apprecaite you respectful manner, and I do not feel that you are harking on me in any way. I enjoy a good back and forth as well, and do not taking anything personally in these forums because, I'll be honest with you, I dont care what others on the internet say unless they say it well or with style.
My point was that it does not matter what you are doing with your friends. Asking them to rearrange ALL of their (probably busy) schedules because you want to play a video game is at the height of ridiculousness.
It may also be the height of ludicrousness to ask your friends to obligate themselves to a game to the exclusion of all else. An MMO is a group activity, and the people you game with on an MMO are often friends as well. So, it's ridiculous to try to reschedule a game with friends because of another game with friends?
Seriously, an MMO is a group activity. We aren't talking about siting in front of the SNES to play Street Fighter II here.
From the studies I have read dealing with the issue of "virtual relationships," the friendships formed online can be just as strong and meaningful as those formed offline. That the person in question values the online relationships is not so surprising to me.
I don't particularly value online relationships myself, but they are a great outlet for a wide variety of people who find it difficult in the "real world" to form relationships for whatever reason. I'd rather game with people face-to-face, but for some the online version is as good or better.
For a while, my DnD group tried to play DnD online. It had its issues, so we tried to play various other online games (Starcraft and GuildWars come to mind). So for a stretch of several weeks, we played GuildWars every Tuesday (or was it Monday) night and it was pretty much the same flow as if we were playing DnD. We'd joke around and talk about our lives. Its really not a huge difference.
The problem just arises when you have to chose between a MMO and a DnD group. Then the group could feel hurt if they are friends from "real life". But maybe the player just prefers the MMO or really thinks its easier to move the DnD day. But I can definitely understand if it appears that the player in question commits much more time to the MMO.
But conceptually, its very similar in my opinion.
My point was that it does not matter what you are doing with your friends. Asking them to rearrange ALL of their (probably busy) schedules because you want to play a video game is at the height of ridiculousness.
No, it's not. It is no more the "height of ridiculousness" than asking a game to be rescheduled for any other conflicting personal reason. He is free to ask, the others are free to say no. The reason for asking is relatively immaterial.
Without knowing the whole background, I would assume the reason the player feels he needs to play WoW over D&D at that time is that there is a dungeon/raid scheduled. That means anywhere from 9 to 39 other real people - all with "probably busy schedules" - have agreed upon this date and time and are relying on this player to be there and do his part. When you factor in both the large number of players - and the added difficulty of players in different time zones, countries and even continents - it is generally much harder to reschedule a WoW raid than a D&D game.
I know all about "busy schedules". My current D&D group has 10 players and getting them all together at one time can be a nightmare. We're lucky if we can get together once a month. I have had to miss the last two sessions because of personal reasons. Because of that I don't feel it is fair that anyone make concessions to me or my schedule and so I will not give input into when our next game date should be. If the group reaches a consensus then the game is a go whether I can make it or not. That is my choice.
When I played WoW I too faced the problem of D&D and WoW conflicting. Most of the time I opted for D&D, but on a couple of occasions I had to say that a certain date was a no-go for D&D cos of a prior WoW commitment. And yes, when you have so many other people relaying on your, particularly if you fulfill a key role like Tank or Healer, then it is just as much a commitment as anything else.
My only gripe with the situation is presented is that the player is asking for the D&D game to be rescheduled. If the D&D game date was already set and agreed upon then the player should keep that original commitment.
That you do not understand or respect the player's situation is clear, but to deride it as "the height of ridiculousness" is dismissive and rude and says much more about your lack of understanding than anything to do with the player of whom you are so critical.
My only gripe with the situation is presented is that the player is asking for the D&D game to be rescheduled. If the D&D game date was already set and agreed upon then the player should keep that original commitment.
Well if its a small group (say 4 PCs), it sometimes is easier to reschedule than to play shorthanded. That's kind of how my group works. If we know in advance, we often skip a week. If its last minute (like we're all together already), we try to play shorthanded.
My only gripe with the situation is presented is that the player is asking for the D&D game to be rescheduled. If the D&D game date was already set and agreed upon then the player should keep that original commitment.
Well if its a small group (say 4 PCs), it sometimes is easier to reschedule than to play shorthanded. That's kind of how my group works. If we know in advance, we often skip a week. If its last minute (like we're all together already), we try to play shorthanded.
True. Let me rephrase it to be more accurate to what I meant: If the D&D game date was already set and agreed upon then that commitment should take precedence.
editI appreciate you respectful manner, and I do not feel that you are harking on me in any way. I enjoy a good back and forth as well, and do not taking anything personally in these forums because, I'll be honest with you, I don't care what others on the internet say unless they say it well or with style.
Well, good thing I think the same way then!
While I enjoy a good sparring match myself, it seems that others have taken to wanting to discuss the matter in question as well. In which case I'll pop in for the odd comment, here and there, and let others continue on as they will. Excellent.If you have a (recurring) conflict with your group and you enjoy playing with them, you can always ask them if they are willing to move the game to another day. If such isn't possible, you can still decide not to show up. There's nothing strange about that.
It happens from time to time in my group that we move the session because one player has something come up and can't make it. We move things forward or backwards a day, if that's possible. But if it's not, the player will accept that he can't make it and we play without him/her and that's that.
Asking to reschedule isn't all that bad. Demanding the game be rescheduled is.
True. But that's true regardless of the conflict.
WoW groups tend to be alot larger than D&D groups. Asking 3-5 friends you know in real life if it is possible to change which night of the week you game on makes more sense, as 5 people are much more likely to be able to do so. The odds that all 60 people in your raiding party will be able to change the night on which they game together is much smaller. It dosn't become a matter of 'these group takes presedence" untill both groups say no. Then, and only then, the person in question has to choose. I could see being insulted because a friend decided to play with the Wow group instead of with you, but not because they asked if the game could be schedueled diffrently.
From my point of view this way of thinking is backwords. Using this logic you must never get out of the house. You let these 60 people that have nothing to do with you in real life control parts of your life, they may not even be able to point you out on the street, let alone tell you what city, state or even country that you live in. I would not say that they are friends, a few may actually be, but the others probably couldn't care less about you. And losing 1 of 60 raiders has little effect (no effect in my book, because I couldn't care less about yor digital life) than losing 1 of 5 in a D&D group. WoW is not going to miss you, they will replace you almost instantly and not think on it again. You are having a greater impact on the D&D group, especially if these people are your good friends. Now you are choosing to play a video game in your basement over spending time with real friends, this is not healthy for social beings like humans. There is a reason that the gamer stereotype is not a good one, and their social skills are one of the facets that give them such a bad name, and unfortunately it is often true. Human to human interaction trumps human to machine to avatar to avatar to machine to human interaction any and every day.
you ask me to change my schedule based around your video games and unless it is more convenient for me to change you are SOL. I have dealt with this before and I find it ridiculous to even ask. These people take their time to travel to the decided on meeting place, spend the gas to get there and dedicate this time to be there with other people, people that are their friends, people that they have actually seen. They have busy schedules, dealing with real life and the world around them, asking them to change because of some digital life that if ended will have no affect on your or anyone else's real life is well...how many times can I call it ridiculous? Real life issues- ok lets make this work, fake life issues - deal.
As an aside, I have a curiosity, Baphogoat {if I may}; What, exactly, about MMORPGs do you find so distasteful? As I mentioned myself, I dislike them as well, but I have no personal bias against them as you seemingly do. Did you have a horrible personal experience with an MMORPG {or one of It's players} and so feel slighted and distrust them? Or is there a darker reason for your intense dislike of digital games?
They have busy schedules, dealing with real life and the world around them, asking them to change because of some digital life that if ended will have no affect on your or anyone else's real life is well...how many times can I call it ridiculous?
I'm sorry, but if you stopped playing D&D, what effect would that have on yours or anybody else's life? It's a game. It's not serious business, it's just a game.
I mean, calling up at the last minute and saying "can we do this some other time" is a **** move, no argument there, but it's a **** move regardless of the reason.
What if the people you play online games with are your real friends. I used to play GuildWars with my old high school friends. They all lived over an hour away from me so we had a "gaming" night were we all caught up and had a good time. (Example in my post above.) The friend that moved the furthest away said it really made him feel like part of the group again.
Also, when I played WoW, I was in a guild which the members where friends from work. Now out of the 20-40 people, I probably only knew about 10 well, but they were still people I knew in "real life".
I think you are making a distinction between "real life" gaming and "online" gaming which does not have to exist.
Although, your point that about how much you affect the group is a good one. 1 out of 30 is hardly an issue and the raid presumably can go on. But 1 out of 5 or 6 can sometimes ruin a game. And if the player is consistantly choosing one game over the other, you should talk to the player and determine if he really wants to continue gaming with your group.
They have busy schedules, dealing with real life and the world around them, asking them to change because of some digital life that if ended will have no affect on your or anyone else's real life is well...how many times can I call it ridiculous?
I'm sorry, but if you stopped playing D&D, what effect would that have on yours or anybody else's life? It's a game. It's not serious business, it's just a game.
I mean, calling up at the last minute and saying "can we do this some other time" is a **** move, no argument there, but it's a **** move regardless of the reason.
You're right it is a game, and so I dont ask others to change their lives based off me wanting to play this game, let alone a game that people play and can play everyday, anytime at home. I never claimed that me playing D&D or stopping playing would affect others life's...but now that you have asked: my group would merely have to go through the process of replacing me as DM, one of the members would have to find another ride to the session, and they would need to find another table as my table would be going with me. Nothing to big unless they cannot find a suitable replacement as DM.
As an aside, I have a curiosity, Baphogoat {if I may}; What, exactly, about MMORPGs do you find so distasteful? As I mentioned myself, I dislike them as well, but I have no personal bias against them as you seemingly do. Did you have a horrible personal experience with an MMORPG {or one of It's players} and so feel slighted and distrust them? Or is there a darker reason for your intense dislike of digital games?
It is just personal opinion, but I find them extremely boring and mind numbing. Some I have found entertaining for a little while but I quickly lost interest. Just not my style. and to expand on an earlier post I have dealt with players who have in the past made commitments to D&D and not shown up giving lame excuses, and then we find them online. If you can not make your real life commitments, be it a game group, work, hanging with your real friends or whatever it may be then there is an issue. this may not be the case for the majority of gamers but it is by no means an isolated incident.
My reasoning behind not enjoying these games: you play the game to be better at playing the game, there does not seem to be much point of it after that. hit the button, hit the button, hit the button better. Sure you might 'socialize' with others, but is it worth giving up meeting people in an actual setting to meet someone in a digital one? I dont think it is a good trade off, and to try and force others to manipulate their lives around a game that you are essentially sitting at home alone playing doesn't work for me.
I think that this is fine (as if it matters what I think), and may be a good way to interact with your friends that you can not easily see. But to put off your other friends and other aspects of your life because 60 nearly random people expect you to dedicate days of you life to this game is crossing a line. I would not change our groups sessions for something like this, and would ask the player to make the choice between giving up one of his 4 nights of WoW a week or this weekly game of D&D, that way we can move on and find another player, that does not have the same 'demands' on his time.
You're right it is a game, and so I dont ask others to change their lives based off me wanting to play this game, let alone a game that people play and can play everyday, anytime at home.
... but you do exactly that. Everytime you schedule a game, you're asking people to change their lives based on what you want. That's kinda the nature of scheduling something. Getting everyone to agree to change their lives in the same way.
From my point of view this way of thinking is backwords. Using this logic you must never get out of the house. You let these 60 people that have nothing to do with you in real life control parts of your life, they may not even be able to point you out on the street, let alone tell you what city, state or even country that you live in. I would not say that they are friends, a few may actually be, but the others probably couldn't care less about you. And losing 1 of 60 raiders has little effect (no effect in my book, because I couldn't care less about yor digital life) than losing 1 of 5 in a D&D group. WoW is not going to miss you, they will replace you almost instantly and not think on it again.
I get the feeling I am talking to myself. I fail to see how attempting to find a schedueling solution that allows you to spend time with both groups somehow makes you an antisocial troglodyte. From the attitude you seem to be displaying, it does not apear that you would miss the person much either if you take the simple act of discussing a schedule change as such a personal affront and seem to have such a negative opinion of his other hobbies and what that says about him as a person.
You are having a greater impact on the D&D group, especially if these people are your good friends. Now you are choosing to play a video game in your basement over spending time with real friends, this is not healthy for social beings like humans.
A choice that was not made. The situation, as I read it, was that they where attempting to find a way to not have to chose between the two, looking for a way to do two things they enjoy.
you ask me to change my schedule based around your video games and unless it is more convenient for me to change you are SOL. I have dealt with this before and I find it ridiculous to even ask. These people take their time to travel to the decided on meeting place, spend the gas to get there and dedicate this time to be there with other people, people that are their friends, people that they have actually seen. They have busy schedules, dealing with real life and the world around them, asking them to change because of some digital life that if ended will have no affect on your or anyone else's real life is well...how many times can I call it ridiculous? Real life issues- ok lets make this work, fake life issues - deal.
And how would they know what is and is not more convenient for you or anyone else unless they ask? You have yet to demonstrate how discussing change is so personally offensive. The reason for the change is irrelevant.
A: "Hey, i would prefeer to play on day Z instead of X, is that possible?"
B: "Yah, Z is good for me."
C: "Mabey I could make it on Z, but I would prefeer X."
D:"I would like to play on Z, but I'm not sure if I can. Let me think about it for a bit and check my schedule."
E: *shrug* "It's all the same to me."
That does not seem a particularly painful or insulting conversation to me.
I get the feeling I am talking to myself. I fail to see how attempting to find a schedueling solution that allows you to spend time with both groups somehow makes you an antisocial troglodyte.
The fact of the matter is that the group has already had the discussion of when to hold game, and they had made their decision. So either 1)This player was already involved in his raiding and was aware of the conflict that would be involved or 2)The player later got involved in his raiding knowing full well that it was in conflict with his game group. whether he expects the group to change to fit his video gaming schedule I dont know, but what I am saying is that he should not expect this as his other gaming decisions are just that: his. It was not his boss deciding to change his work schedule or him having his kids on a certain day, it is him deciding to play another game. He is free to make this decision but to expect that the rest of the group to change their schedules because of his decision is ridiculous.
The fact that it is an online game really makes no difference, and because of my obvious dislike of those style of games people have become defensive or something akin to that. This is because I often like to play devil's advocate and voice my opinion in a more extreme manner than I actually hold. But the fact stays the same, it is his decision to play WoW or D&D, if it was me I would have to put serious consideration to make any changes based of his choice to play another.
And what happens when his raids change days? He is already playing 4 nights a week, what is stopping him from changing nights or going on more raids, further disrupting the game session? Nothing, that's what.
he fact of the matter is that the group has already had the discussion of when to hold game, and they had made their decision.
A decision probably reached by compromise and convienence. Not a holy mandate set in stone. They have probably come to other decisisons as well in the past, like what system to play and what is brougth by whom; I fail to see how discussing a change in scheduling is diffrent from discussing a change in system or in what kind of soda is brought.
So either 1)This player was already involved in his raiding and was aware of the conflict that would be involved or 2)The player later got involved in his raiding knowing full well that it was in conflict with his game group.
So, in the case of option 2;
WoW Player: "Hey, want to raid with us? We raid on night X."
DnD Player: "Hmm, I don't know. I hang out with friends on that night usually. Let me see if anyone wants to rescheduel that."
Still not seeing the insult or inpropriety.
And what happens when his raids change days? He is already playing 4 nights a week, what is stopping him from changing nights or going on more raids, further disrupting the game session? Nothing, that's what.
So? Nothing wrong with that.
If the group dosn't mind frequently changing their gaming scheduel, no problem. If they say they cannot or will not change it, then the player in question has to choose one or the other. I still do not see the problem.
You are not seeing it because you have obviously missed something. The player has left game early many times to raid. They set up a webcam as a one time emergency, and now he insists on playing by webcam every session while claiming he has household chores when it is obvious that he is doing it so he can play WoW while at the same time being to distracted to add anything useful to the D&D game, and in fact is doing quite the opposite. And now that they are finally telling him that the webcam doesn't work for them and was meant to be a one time thing he is trying to move the game to a different night. If you dont see it now then you are a blind man.
Sincerely,
Baphogoat.
p.s. Not to mention that he raids mon-thurs nights. Would it be ridiculous if you were in a game group that demanded you be there to game every day of the week? The answer is yes.
Toasted,
You are not seeing it because you have obviously missed something.
Well, yes. We're discussing this from what's been said here, as this is where we joined the conversation.
That stuff you said? That's not stuff we knew. And quite frankly, that's not a problem of WoW, that's a problem of someone being a ****. And like I said earlier, a **** move is a **** move, whatever the reason.
The problem isn't WoW, it's a player being a ****.
Toasted,
You are not seeing it because you have obviously missed something. The player has left game early many times to raid. They set up a webcam as a one time emergency, and now he insists on playing by webcam every session while claiming he has household chores when it is obvious that he is doing it so he can play WoW while at the same time being to distracted to add anything useful to the D&D game, and in fact is doing quite the opposite. And now that they are finally telling him that the webcam doesn't work for them and was meant to be a one time thing he is trying to move the game to a different night. If you dont see it now then you are a blind man.
Sincerely,
Baphogoat.
p.s. Not to mention that he raids mon-thurs nights. Would it be ridiculous if you were in a game group that demanded you be there to game every day of the week? The answer is yes.
*shrug*
None of that was mentioned here. Only thing that was said is that someone trying to get their gaming group to play on a diffrent night because they wanted to play a computer game was a horrible thing. Frankly, given what you have now said, asking to move the game should have been the first thing done, not the last
It rather appears that said person, well, isn't all that interested in the game and would much rather be playing WoW. Perhapes the only reason he continues to try and be in the group at all is because he feels (correctly I think) that his leaving the group to have more time to spend playing WoW would hurt some group members feelings. These seem more like the actions of a person being compelled to play D&D, not someone who wants to play D&D.
Edit: A game group that Demanded I do much of anything is rather ridiculous. Aside from behaving properly in the home or other local and behave in accordance with the law, a game group is in no position to make demands of its members. It is also under no obligation to retain members.
Toasted,
You are not seeing it because you have obviously missed something.
Well, yes. We're discussing this from what's been said here, as this is where we joined the conversation.
That stuff you said? That's not stuff we knew. And quite frankly, that's not a problem of WoW, that's a problem of someone being a ****. And like I said earlier, a **** move is a **** move, whatever the reason.
The problem isn't WoW, it's a player being a ****.
I swear the first post has a link to the original thread so that others could read and get an idea of what we were talking about ( we didn't want to derail the other thread ot much), well would you look at that it does.. Oh! you didn't read into what the thread was actually about yet still decided to give your 2 cents of input. Guess your right, its not WoW that makes a ****, people must just be born that way.
I swear the first post has a link to the original thread so that others could read and get an idea of what we were talking about ( we didn't want to derail the other thread ot much), well would you look at that it does.. Oh! you didn't read into what the thread was actually about yet still decided to give your 2 cents of input. Guess your right, its not WoW that makes a ****, people must just be born that way.
*Gasp*
Someone responded in a thread to talk about what was posted in that thread? Instead of going to read a thread that was deemed an inapropriate location for the proposed conversation? HEATHEN!
I swear the first post has a link to the original thread so that others could read and get an idea of what we were talking about ( we didn't want to derail the other thread ot much), well would you look at that it does.. Oh! you didn't read into what the thread was actually about yet still decided to give your 2 cents of input. Guess your right, its not WoW that makes a ****, people must just be born that way.
*Gasp*
Someone responded in a thread to talk about what was posted in that thread? Instead of going to read a thread that was deemed an inapropriate location for the proposed conversation? HEATHEN!
If you bothered to read the first post of this thread it clearly states that this is a continuation of a discussion from another thread, so you might think to check that thread out to see the beginning of the discussion, seems like a logical place to start.
If you bothered to read the first post of this thread it clearly states that this is a continuation of a discussion from another thread, so you might think to check that thread out to see the beginning of the discussion, seems like a logical place to start.
I just came from that thread and I still don't understand your rationalization. In fact, it looks to me like you're letting your personal feelings about MMORPGs get in the way of an otherwise-sensical thread.
Someone asking a group to reschedule, regardless of the reason, is most certainly not ridiculous. If anything, it shows the person wants to find a time during which he can devote 100% of his attention.
There's an underlying reason as to why you're so strangely offended by this whole situation. I don't think your distaste for MMORPGs is the primary reason.
I'd say that trying to reschedule the game is better than lying about chores or playing via webcam. If they can change the day and everyone agrees, they should do that. Otherwise, just find a new player.
I've had players who missed sessions because they were up all night, then decided to play Xbox Live instead of sleep, then said they were too tired to play. This player no longer plays with us. Its seems very similar to the case you mentioned.
To me, it would have been much better if he asked if we could reschedule in advance. Instead he was unclear if he would make the session and then called less than an hour before the session to cancel. Totally lame!
So blame the player, not the game (WoW), I'd say.
}, and I appreciate your response to my inquiry, Baphogoat. I think you have some underlying issue that causes you to have such distaste for MMORPG's that you may not even be aware of. You appear, bluntly, blinded by your own dislike of MMORPG's that you cannot see anything outside the boundaries you have errected for yourself.I could very well be wrong though, and so take my words with a gain of salt. You know yourself better then anyone else on the planet, and if you say something is the way it is, then I trust to accept that train of thought.
Thanks all for the insightful replies, and attempting to keep your emotions in check {
I could very well be wrong though, and so take my words with a gain of salt. You know yourself better then anyone else on the planet, and if you say something is the way it is, then I trust to accept that train of thought.
Well, like I said I tend to play Devil's advocate, taking a more extreme stance in theory than in practice. Of course I would (if I thought the player was an asset, or a good friend) attempt to reschedule if it worked for everyone. If it did not work for even one other person it would be off, and in general I would not be happy to reschedule a game because someone wants to play a video game. Video games can be played at any time you wish, and I really dont care if there is a raiding schedule you want to stick to. Now if raiding was how you made a living, and needed to do it to survive fine, but I dont think this is the case. My time and schedule is more valuable to me then anyone's want to play a video game at a certain time. Now don't get me wrong, video games can be fun and I delve into one now and then, but to let one run your life and then spill over into other people's lives is a little extreme. You may need counceling, though I dont particularly endorse it.
Well, like I said I tend to play Devil's advocate, taking a more extreme stance in theory than in practice. Of course I would (if I thought the player was an asset, or a good friend) attempt to reschedule if it worked for everyone. If it did not work for even one other person it would be off, and in general I would not be happy to reschedule a game because someone wants to play a video game. Video games can be played at any time you wish, and I really dont care if there is a raiding schedule you want to stick to. Now if raiding was how you made a living, and needed to do it to survive fine, but I dont think this is the case. My time and schedule is more valuable to me then anyone's want to play a video game at a certain time. Now don't get me wrong, video games can be fun and I delve into one now and then, but to let one run your life and then spill over into other people's lives is a little extreme. You may need counceling, though I dont particularly endorse it.
Raiding is a fully scheduled event just like a D&D session is. You don't just up and decide "hey I'm going to raid tonight!" It takes you and 24-40 other people to get together, at a specific time and place. Raiding also consumes several hours in one go as much time as a D&D session which is another reason they are scheduled.
It's not a matter of "sticking to a schedule you want to play at" but pretty much the schedule that works for the entire guild.
Excellent reply. I feel as though this thread is actually accomplishing something, a rare treat in the bizarre world of the OTT.
Man, you are quick, and thank you. I know that at times I can seem a little draconian and maybe I am, but sometimes you have to draw the line. And I dont take kindly to being manipulated, used or under appreciated. things I think happened in this situation with the Wower, and so I come off as a little harsh and unforgiving at times . I am merely taking a firm stance, and you get more input from the opposing side this way.
If I put in my valuable time into creating a campaign and a player shows that they do not care, by leaving early to play WoW or playing remotely so they can play WoW or any other game at the same time then that remote connect would be disconnected. If you can not put the time into showing up to game for 5 hours one night and paying attention then you are not worth my time, and that is how this situation made me feel about the player.
Raiding is a fully scheduled event just like a D&D session is. You don't just up and decide "hey I'm going to raid tonight!" It takes you and 24-40 other people to get together, at a specific time and place. Raiding also consumes several hours in one go as much time as a D&D session which is another reason they are scheduled.
It's not a matter of "sticking to a schedule you want to play at" but pretty much the schedule that works for the entire guild.
and I care why?
and I care why?
Do you not care about your group member's schedules?
Really?
So when someone doesn't make it or can't make it because they you know have other obligations you just say "if you can't make it GO AWAY!"?
and I care why?
Do you not care about your group member's schedules?
Really?
So when someone doesn't make it or can't make it because they you know have other obligations you just say "if you can't make it GO AWAY!"?
"I have to raid 4 nights a week" is not an obligation nor is it something that I am going to schedule around. That's self imposed, no one is making him play a video game or any game for that matter. If he wants to play D&D and the game is on a certain night he will come, if raiding is more important he can stay home, his choice. I dont see how leaving the choice in the hands of the player is so bad.
"I have to raid 4 nights a week" is not an obligation nor is it something that I am going to schedule around. That's self imposed, no one is making him play a video game or any game for that matter. If he wants to play D&D and the game is on a certain night he will come, if raiding is more important he can stay home, his choice. I dont see how leaving the choice in the hands of the player is so bad.
So basically you run your table as if it were a job?
Would your attitude still be this if he had simply found another D&D group to game with on that night and it was the only night they could game together?
or would you some how be more understanding because it's not an mmo?
My time and schedule is more valuable to me then anyone's want to play a video game at a certain time. Now don't get me wrong, video games can be fun and I delve into one now and then, but to let one run your life and then spill over into other people's lives is a little extreme. You may need counceling, though I dont particularly endorse it.
So essentially what you are saying is that your "time and schedule" is more important than other people's, at least those who partake of a hobby of which you disaprove' and that anyone who ever chooses to play a video game instead of another activity is "letting it run their life" and that they "may need counceling".
That is, in no uncertain terms, a steaming load of horse
.
So essentially what you are saying is that your "time and schedule" is more important than other people's, at least those who partake of a hobby of which you disaprove' and that anyone who ever chooses to play a video game instead of another activity is "letting it run their life" and that they "may need counceling".
That is, in no uncertain terms, a steaming load of horse
It is your choice if you would rather play a video game than hang out with friends, but I am not going to change my life because you want to play a video game, so yes my time is more important than your video games. If there is another game session you want to play you might have to work that out, maybe play in one or the other. Just just because you 'want' it does not mean that you are going to get it, some times you have to pick your priorities. If you choose to be playing another game instead that is your choice, I am not forcing you to make that choice, you are. And playing a video game 4 nights of the week, making you unable to participate in other events, is letting it run your life. And you might need counceling, alcoholism is not the only addiction people might need counceling for, but I am no expert.
"I have to raid 4 nights a week" is not an obligation
It is as much an obligation as "I have to play D&D that night". Just cos you do not agree respect this does not change this
It is your choice if you would rather play a video game than hang out with friends, but I am not going to change my life because you want to play a video game, so yes my time is more important than your video games.
If this is your stance I would suggest one is better off without such a "friend".
Are you using "you" in a general sense or are you suggesting these statements apply to me directly?
If there is another game session you want to play you might have to work that out, maybe play in one or the other. Just just because you 'want' it does not mean that you are going to get it, some times you have to pick your priorities. If you choose to be playing another game instead that is your choice, I am not forcing you to make that choice, you are.
Yes, life is about choices and one must prioritize those choices. It is your derision towards a choice you do not respect, and the supposed "friend" who makes it, which is the real problem.
And playing a video game 4 nights of the week…is letting it run your life.
Nonsense.
making you unable to participate in other events,
"Unable" is not the same thing as "unavailable".
And you might need counceling, alcoholism is not the only addiction people might need counceling for,
A spurious comparison.
but I am no expert.
Clearly.
So basically you run your table as if it were a job?
Would your attitude still be this if he had simply found another D&D group to game with on that night and it was the only night they could game together?
or would you some how be more understanding because it's not an mmo?
If you are looking for another group maybe you should look for one that does not conflict with your current one, unless you want to leave your current group, then who cares? But to expect that 5 other people should change their schedules around your wants is ridiculous and self centered. The world does not revolve around you, no matter how much you seem to think so.
If you have some real life issues that can not be put off, unlike like your choice to play a game that can be put off, then sure lets make accommodations, see if we can work it out. Otherwise you may be SOL.
"I have to raid 4 nights a week" is not an obligation
It is as much an obligation as "I have to play D&D that night". Just cos you do not agree respect this does not change this
Even if you consider it an obligation that does not make it a reasonable excuse to ask others to change their lives.
If you are looking for another group maybe you should look for one that does not conflict with your current one, unless you want to leave your current group, then who cares? But to expect that 5 other people should change their schedules around your wants is ridiculous and self centered. The world does not revolve around you, no matter how much you seem to think so.
If you have some real life issues that can not be put off, unlike like your choice to play a game that can be put off, then sure lets make accommodations, see if we can work it out. Otherwise you may be SOL.
having paid attention to the other thread. The 'original' group could shift their schedules fairly easily actually. They actually did so. If it causes no problems to do so for no one in the group then why not?
Seriously?
Or maybe you are the selfish one because "NO WE HAD YOU FIRST!"? Or are you just jealous that you have never been wanted by multiple groups before? Or have never experienced that occurence first hand?
And seriously, if you think a Raid can just be 'put off" then you clearly have no experience with Raiding or mmos.
Maybe you should reevaluate and research before you start spouting off things like that.
Oh! you didn't read into what the thread was actually about yet still decided to give your 2 cents of input. Guess your right, its not WoW that makes a ****, people must just be born that way.
Hey, whatever helps you on your path of personal revelations.
Even if you consider it an obligation that does not make it a reasonable excuse to ask others to change their lives.
If you consider a request to reschedule a D&D game to be asking you to "change your life" then, sir, I respectfully submit it may be you whose priorities are askew and who may be in need of counselling. D&D is just a game.
If this is your stance I would suggest one is better off without such a "friend".
Are you using "you" in a general sense or are you suggesting these statements apply to me directly?
it is the big You, not the little you, I care not for the little you.
Yes, life is about choices and one must prioritize those choices. It is your derision towards a choice you do not respect, and the supposed "friend" who makes it, which is the real problem.
I am not the one that thinks my wants should override those of others. I have real people in my life that rely on me, and who I want to spend time with, that will always take precidence over a video game life, always.
Nonsense.
Let a video game control when you can hang out with friends is nonsense.
"Unable" is not the same thing as "unavailable".
The difference is choice, you choose to be unavailable even if you are able. this is not my problem but yours (once again the big You).
baphogoat: "but I am no expert." Boraxe: "Clearly."
Experts hold no water, proclaiming to be one lessens your credibility. I like your attempt at an insult though, predictable and meaningless.
having paid attention to the other thread. The 'original' group could shift their schedules fairly easily actually. They actually did so. If it causes no problems to do so for no one in the group then why not?
Seriously?
Or maybe you are the selfish one because "NO WE HAD YOU FIRST!"? Or are you just jealous that you have never been wanted by multiple groups before? Or have never experienced that occurence first hand?
And seriously, if you think a Raid can just be 'put off" then you clearly have no experience with Raiding or mmos.
Maybe you should reevaluate and research before you start spouting off things like that.
you hit the nail right on the head, jealousy, I am so jealous! dang I get to game the one night a week that I like with a group that I like, how horrible that people aren't clammering over each other to have me in their games. I'm sure that is the case for you, and good luck with all that. I merely am stating a point, and it happens that you disagree, and like I have noticed you turn to personal attacks and add nothing to the discussion, I would put you on ignore but I get such a kick out of it that I can't bring myself to do it.
So if I raid every day and then all of a sudden I stop what happens? Nothing, absolutely nothing! hahahaha....Except maybe I save $9.99 a month. Yeah, for you! and your great amount of experience in wasting time, and getting taken for 10 bucks a month. though I guess if you enjoy it then it is money well spent, I just dont share that opinion. So my point is that, yes, it can be put off with little or no concequience to you or anyone else.
So my point is that, yes, it can be put off with little or no concequience to you or anyone else.
Same goes for just about any hobby.
.The whole WoW side of the debate has two layers. Yes, he is admittedly playing a video game. Yes, he seems to value this video game over D&D. The second layer that you don't seem to comprehend is that he is playing with real people.
I don't care how many farfetched reasons you can come up with to prove why these real people he is interacting with in WoW aren't actually real people. They are. There is absolutely nothing you can come up with that could change my opinion and the opinions of many others that despite these real people being represented by virtual avatars, they are still real people.
Despite how incapable you are of understanding the basic idea of friendship, I assure you that it is completely possible for one human being to befriend another human being through World of Warcraft. Aside from facial recognition and non-gaming interaction, there is literally nothing that separates a WoW friend from a real-life friend, and in some cases the two are even one and the same.
It honestly, seriously disturbs me that you can be so insistent that just because you aren't actually sitting around a table, looking at these peoples' faces while interacting, they don't actually exist. It's not even remotely imaginable to me that any rational human being can be so stubborn as to throw away any semblance of reasoning in favor of such a selfish, twisted idea of reality.
I merely am stating a point, and it happens that you disagree, and like I have noticed you turn to personal attacks and add nothing to the discussion
Something you would clearly never do.
(Not that it matters. Your just a couple of computer avatars throwing insults back and forth. Only I am real here.)
it is the big You, not the little you, I care not for the little you.
Insults are uncalled for. Civilized people can disagree without being disagreeable.
I am not the one that thinks my wants should override those of others. I have real people in my life that rely on me, and who I want to spend time with, that will always take precidence over a video game life, always.
So any time you ask for something to be rescheduled you are "thinking your wants should override those of others"? Also, playing a video game is not living a "video game life".
Let a video game control when you can hang out with friends is nonsense.
Choosing to play a video game is not letting it "control you".
The difference is choice, you choose to be unavailable even if you are able. this is not my problem but yours (once again the big You).
And? What of it? If one has two conflicting obligations - chosen or otherwise - seeking to reschedule one of them is not a bad thing. The issue here is that you believe no one should accommodate such a change - even for a supposed friend - if you deem the other commitment to be unworthy.
baphogoat: "but I am no expert." Boraxe: "Clearly."
Experts hold no water,
What about a water-holding expert?
proclaiming to be one lessens your credibility.
Proclaiming to not be one does not enhance it, either.
I like your attempt at an insult though, predictable and meaningless.
You should reread it. It was actually quite clever. You keep setting 'em up, I'll keep knocking 'em down. ;)
A word of advice: Your absurd hyperbole and use of loaded language ("wants" instead of "needs", etc.) is grossly undermining your credibility.
I came back to find two posts further on this topic.
I'm not the one that started the insults and holier than thou attitude in this thread. I'm not the one at apparently assumed that it's utterly impossible for someone to have other social obligations which do not involve yourself. I'm not the one that is prosing as if he would tell his friend "STFU I don't want you at my table anymore because you can't make it to game night on our old day!"
I'm also not the one that maded the Grand Assumption that his own personal situation where he supposedly has so little free time to game once a week on a specific day was just like everyone elses situation in life.
You know what? At one time I was working 70 hours a week, staying out almost night after night with my friends (and lady friends
) for more than half the night at a time. I still found time to Workout, play D&D, and videogames. (I don't personally play MMOs, mainly cause like back then there really aren't many that I've deemed even worth my time let alone continuous funds)I seriously doubt you are only free once a week if I could cram all that into my days and weeks.
I look at the posts here and I'm wondering just what to say that is going to get through.
**** it.
Baphogoat: you're just wrong.
Baphogoat, you keep repeating this term "video game" as if the WoW player being discussed is sitting in front of his computer, playing solitaire. Every single argument you bring up revolves around the idea that WoW is somehow less real than D&D, which if you hadn't already guessed by the masses of people who are disagreeing with you, is quite frankly a load of bull
The whole WoW side of the debate has two layers. Yes, he is admittedly playing a video game. Yes, he seems to value this video game over D&D. The second layer that you don't seem to comprehend is that he is playing with real people.
I don't care how many farfetched reasons you can come up with to prove why these real people he is interacting with in WoW aren't actually real people. They are. There is absolutely nothing you can come up with that could change my opinion and the opinions of many others that despite these real people being represented by virtual avatars, they are still real people.
Despite how incapable you are of understanding the basic idea of friendship, I assure you that it is completely possible for one human being to befriend another human being through World of Warcraft. Aside from facial recognition and non-gaming interaction, there is literally nothing that separates a WoW friend from a real-life friend, and in some cases the two are even one and the same.
It honestly, seriously disturbs me that you can be so insistent that just because you aren't actually sitting around a table, looking at these peoples' faces while interacting, they don't actually exist. It's not even remotely imaginable to me that any rational human being can be so stubborn as to throw away any semblance of reasoning in favor of such a selfish, twisted idea of reality.
Yes, more with the poo flinging.
I undestand that there are people that you play with, but that doesn't change the fact that you are sitting at home by yourself, nor does it change the fact that this player expects that something he chooses to do 4 times a week should some how affect the days that the rest of the group gets to do their chosen activity. He should not expect them to change days because he wants to play a VIDEO GAME, yes I said it again, because that is exactly what it is, he is expecting others lives to revolve around his gaming schedule, one that he could very well change. He doesn't have to raid, or why not arrange other days to raid, I am pretty sure that he would not have a hard time finding people to raid on the off-game days since are there are 6 of them.
and on a side not, realilty is subjective, there are of course common elements to most people's realities but that does not make your interpretation of reality any more real than my interpretation, however twisted it may be. I'm not trying to change you opinion, hell, I dont even care what your opinion is, I am merely defending my own and for some reason that has gotten your and several other people's panties in a bunch, leading to much poo flinging and noises that sound a lot like humping monkeys (yes I know what that sounds like).
Baphogoat: you're just wrong.
Of course, my opinion on a purely subjective matter is wrong, I should have known.
notice: I chose not to respond to the rest of your ridiculous muscle flexing post.
I merely am stating a point, and it happens that you disagree, and like I have noticed you turn to personal attacks and add nothing to the discussion
Something you would clearly never do.
(Not that it matters. Your just a couple of computer avatars throwing insults back and forth. Only I am real here.)
for all I know maybe you are the only real one here.
Baphogoat: After reading the other thread, I think the answer is to tell him to choose. But you should not emphasize the fact that it is a video game. Its a game; DnD is a game. Choosing one over the other is not a huge difference.
You said "...he is expecting others lives to revolve around his gaming schedule, one that he could very well change." There's two gaming schedules that can be changed. He's trying to change the DnD one. There's nothing wrong with that. Now since it can't change, then he'll have to make a decision.
Although, I agree that I never understood why you NEED to raid four times a week. Now if he just wants to do it, then fine. People have to prioritize their interests.
I like your attempt at an insult though, predictable and meaningless.
You should reread it. It was actually quite clever. You keep setting 'em up, I'll keep knocking 'em down. ;)
A word of advice: Your absurd hyperbole and use of loaded language ("wants" instead of "needs", etc.) is grossly undermining your credibility.
You got it backwards 'avatar friend'. I set them up just to see if you'll take the obvious route, and well, you do. Hence the predictable and meaningless.
Also, I use the word want because it is not a need, having to work to earn money to live is a need, taking care of your children is a need, spending time with your family is a need, playing a video game is a want.
Baphogoat: you're just wrong.
Of course, my opinion on a purely subjective matter is wrong, I should have known.
notice: I chose not to respond to the rest of your ridiculous muscle flexing post.
What you think I'm pulling an Internet Tough Guy on you?
I'm not flexing anything. I've no need to. If I wanted to I'd just tell you to click the link to my deviant art in my sig. Flexing Done for me with no need to post further on the subject. :-p
I'm also not the one proclaiming that their life is so full that they can't possibly ever change the day they sit down to play D&D.
I'm sure that four hours a day you probably spend on your ass watching tv after work is SO important that you can't possibly move your D&D to another day.
What makes you so utterly Wrong is your attitude, and being such a poor friend that you aren't willing at all to move your game day to a more convenient time for your friend.
Baphogoat: After reading the other thread, I think the answer is to tell him to choose. But you should not emphasize the fact that it is a video game. Its a game; DnD is a game. Choosing one over the other is not a huge difference.
You said "...he is expecting others lives to revolve around his gaming schedule, one that he could very well change." There's two gaming schedules that can be changed. He's trying to change the DnD one. There's nothing wrong with that. Now since it can't change, then he'll have to make a decision.
Although, I agree that I never understood why you NEED to raid four times a week. Now if he just wants to do it, then fine. People have to prioritize their interests.
This is the point I am making. He plays the game 4 times a week, they play D&D once a week, he needs to chose to give up one day of raids or all of D&D, it is a choice he should make and not expect the others to change their schedules in lieu of him making that decision.
I think we are on the same page here. I have taken a harsher stance, but in essence we are in agreement.
Baphogoat: After reading the other thread, I think the answer is to tell him to choose. But you should not emphasize the fact that it is a video game. Its a game; DnD is a game. Choosing one over the other is not a huge difference.You said "...he is expecting others lives to revolve around his gaming schedule, one that he could very well change." There's two gaming schedules that can be changed. He's trying to change the DnD one. There's nothing wrong with that. Now since it can't change, then he'll have to make a decision.
Although, I agree that I never understood why you NEED to raid four times a week. Now if he just wants to do it, then fine. People have to prioritize their interests.
Well said, on all counts.
I used to play WoW. I joined a raiding guild for a while cos my friends did but it wasn't for me: the time and schedule requirements made it feel like a second job, it just wasn't fun anymore. When the group of friends I hung with - some real-world, some online - got more into raiding and wanted to join a hardcore four-nights-a-week scheduled raiding guild I declined and haven't played WoW since.
For me the game itself, though good, was secondary to the social aspect of hanging out with friends. With that aspect gone the allure faded. I have kept in touch with many of those WoW friends, though, because friends they are. Were WotC ever to get off their collective ass and get the virtual game table up we were going to get an online D&D going, but it looks like that'll never happen.
Thanks to WoW I befriended people I'd never have met otherwise. Folks from New York, Florida, Washington, Ohio, California, Virginia, even as far away as the UK and Australia. Hell, my cousin met her husband playing WoW.
Anyone who says you can't develop real friendships and real relationships through an MMO is simply flat-out wrong.
[...] he is expecting others lives to revolve around his gaming schedule, one that he could very well change.
... You keep saying this, and completetly missing that this applies to D&D just as much.
I mean, no matter what way you cut it, video gaming and table-top gaming are both gaming. Either way, the person would be trying to move one gaming-related activity to make room for another. Why do you need to make it more then that?
[...] he is expecting others lives to revolve around his gaming schedule, one that he could very well change.
... You keep saying this, and completetly missing that this applies to D&D just as much.
I mean, no matter what way you cut it, video gaming and table-top gaming are both gaming. Either way, the person would be trying to move one gaming-related activity to make room for another. Why do you need to make it more then that?
Because one includes time spent with Baphogoat and thus is more imporant than the other. I thought that would have been obvious.
Because one includes time spent with Baphogoat and thus is more imporant than the other. I thought that would have been obvious.
You're a natural mediator and diplomat, ya know that?
You're a natural mediator and diplomat, ya know that?
I know. I try so hard too. :-p
I've learned there's a right time and place to be civil. Then there are times where you must be the hammer.
This is the point I am making. He plays the game 4 times a week, they play D&D once a week, he needs to chose to give up one day of raids or all of D&D, it is a choice he should make and not expect the others to change their schedules in lieu of him making that decision.
I think we are on the same page here. I have taken a harsher stance, but in essence we are in agreement.
This stance is fine and reasonable. If the rest of the group does not want to change the D&D day then this player, if he wishes to continue with the group, needs to choose to reorganize his priorities. The problem here, as I said before, is not the scheduling issue it is your derision towards the player and his priorities because you do not share them.
Baphogoat: you're just wrong.
Of course, my opinion on a purely subjective matter is wrong, I should have known.
notice: I chose not to respond to the rest of your ridiculous muscle flexing post.
What you think I'm pulling an Internet Tough Guy on you?
I'm not flexing anything. I've no need to. If I wanted to I'd just tell you to click the link to my deviant art in my sig. Flexing Done for me with no need to post further on the subject. :-p
I'm also not the one proclaiming that their life is so full that they can't possibly ever change the day they sit down to play D&D.
I'm sure that four hours a day you probably spend on your ass watching tv after work is SO important that you can't possibly move your D&D to another day.
What makes you so utterly Wrong is your attitude, and being such a poor friend that you aren't willing at all to move your game day to a more convenient time for your friend.
If you happened to read the rest of the thread I have already stated that I am much harsher in theory than I am in practice. I am merely stating my point of view, which I hold the rights to change or alter to my liking in its actual application. Meaning I wont necessarily not change my gaming time just to spite a WoWer, but I will not appreciate his insistance that I change my life based on his gaming, especially something he does so often.
Flexing while telling me you have no need to flex doesn't work so well....fyi
Also, you are wrong. sounds stupid doesn't it? And I dont watch TV, to busy working out, hanging with chicks and all that other stuff that the Cpt does.
[...] he is expecting others lives to revolve around his gaming schedule, one that he could very well change.
... You keep saying this, and completetly missing that this applies to D&D just as much.
I mean, no matter what way you cut it, video gaming and table-top gaming are both gaming. Either way, the person would be trying to move one gaming-related activity to make room for another. Why do you need to make it more then that?
Because one includes time spent with Baphogoat and thus is more imporant than the other. I thought that would have been obvious.
Except that I am not expecting anyone to change their lives based around my gaming schedule. My group meets once a week, during a time that we have decided works best for all of us. I dont then pick up another game and expect that my current group will change all their busy schedules based off me being 'unavailable' (I beleive is how boraxe put it).
Except that I am not expecting anyone to change their lives based around my gaming schedule. My group meets once a week, during a time that we have decided works best for all of us. I dont then pick up another game and expect that my current group will change all their busy schedules based off me being 'unavailable' (I beleive is how boraxe put it).
What, decide on a time once, and forever-more you have the one time? Did you carve it in rock, or something? Things change. People's schedules shift. What's the big deal?
If you happened to read the rest of the thread I have already stated that I am much harsher in theory than I am in practice. I am merely stating my point of view, which I hold the rights to change or alter to my liking in its actual application. Meaning I wont necessarily not change my gaming time just to spite a WoWer, but I will not appreciate his insistance that I change my life based on his gaming, especially something he does so often.
Flexing while telling me you have no need to flex doesn't work so well....fyi
Also, you are wrong. sounds stupid doesn't it? And I dont watch TV, to busy working out, hanging with chicks and all that other stuff that the Cpt does.
Yeah I'm sure.
One thing I have learned about the internet. It's what people really feel without the niceties attatched.
So even if you nicer about it, you still feel superior to the guy that plays an MMO. From what I read in the original thread the MMO guy didn't ask anything, infact the group changed the day for him.
It's not my fault you are incapable of reading what someone posted without inserting things that aren't there. I was quite serious, for a time in my life I did that. I quit doing that because over the long term it was not sustainable. I was burning the candle at both ends. (it was fun while it lasted though. And the extra money was definitely a plus) There is no flexing there. It is a simple statement of fact. If I could find the time for all of that, then surely someone could shift around four hours of their life in a given week to hang out with their friends. Nothing more. 4 hours really isn't hard to come up with. But the point went sailing into orbit above your head.
Hey if you want to continue to be an arrogant **** go right ahead. I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am anyway.
I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am anyway.
Most people can't hear themselves over you anyway. It's why we like you.
Most people can't hear themselves over you anyway. It's why we like you.
Quick someone get me a mirror. I think a breeze just messed up my awesome hair. :-p
I better flex while I'm infront of it too while I'm at it. I've not done that for a good five minutes now.
I wouldn't have it any other way buddy. *Insert winking emote*
I've learned there's a right time and place to be civil. Then there are times where you must be the hammer.
Wait, I thought you where Captain Micha.
How did you find out!
Conversing with me is often painfull, I am told.
Eh, only when you go pointlessly pedantic to the point where everyone knows exactly what is being said, but you're picking away at the nuances of word choice anyway for your own amusement.
I understand the fun of playing a video game, but there are things I would be willing to work around and things I would not. And playing an MMO is not one of them.
Others seem to consider it on par with other life events, but I view it as little different than playing a single player game against the PC. I would be no more or less understanding of someone wanting to schedule time to play Mario Bros or WoW or TOR which is to say very little.
That said, it really depends on your options I guess. If you need that player enough that it makes or breaks playing your session to begin with, then you have to wait for them. But if you can do it without them then I would. I don't consider their "raid time" the same as their work schedule, school, dating, family, church, etc. (IOW, things I would be willing to reschedule and compromise for).
Does it really matter if I changed my work schedule, had my sports practice shifted, want to spend the day with my partner, or whatever? The only thing that should matter is that there are two things important to me at the same time, and that I want to discuss with the people involved in both of these groups which is easier to move to another time (if possible), or if worst comes to worst, which of the two activities I'll have to cancel.
But I think the issue that many people have is that this player is playing 4 nights a week of WoW. From the other thread, it appeared that the WoW player originally stated that he wanted to raid on Mondays, Wednesday, and Thursdays. Then the group tried to reschedule and were going to play on Tuesday. But then the WoW player said he was going to raid Monday through Thursday. And then the OP stated that it was very difficult to play on a weekend since they have obligations to family.
So I can definitely be upset that a player is choosing to play WoW four nights a week and can't make room for one night of DnD. At least to me, its not that he's playing WoW, its that he needs to play for four nights a week.
If he wants to play WoW, that's fine, but its a hard sell to give up a weekend just because someone wants to play WoW four times during the week.
(Also the actions described in the other thread seemed very selfish by the WoW player.)
When you aren't willing to consider changing the schedule because another player has something come up that you do not agree with, that reeks of selfishness.
Does it really matter if I changed my work schedule, had my sports practice shifted, want to spend the day with my partner, or whatever? The only thing that should matter is that there are two things important to me at the same time, and that I want to discuss with the people involved in both of these groups which is easier to move to another time (if possible), or if worst comes to worst, which of the two activities I'll have to cancel.
Since you can play a video game at any time this does not fit into the category of things it is appropriate to ask to reschedule your gaming group for, especially if they are already on a set schedule. The idea of rearranging my life around someone's playing of a video game, no matter what game it is, is ridiculous. It is the height of selfishness for the person playing the video game to expect this 'demand' on thier time to have any affect on others whatsoever. I dont care if you think it is important, because it is not. And what others think of your excuse is important, if it is not valid in their eyes why would they schedule around it?
"hey guys, can we change game nights, i like to play with myself mon-thursday, so tuesday no longer works for me." According to many of you this is a valid reason to rearrange other's schedules when in fact it is not.
You may not mind rearranging your and all your friend's schedules around one person's outrageous video gaming schedule, but most normal people would not share this view, and quite frankly its sad and pathetic that people would hold a game like that up alongside, family, work and real life as a good reason for anything, especailly when they already spend so much time doing it.
Since you can play a video game at any time this does not fit into the category of things it is appropriate to ask to reschedule your gaming group for, especially if they are already on a set schedule. The idea of rearranging my life around someone's playing of a video game, no matter what game it is, is ridiculous. It is the height of selfishness for the person playing the video game to expect this 'demand' on thier time to have any affect on others whatsoever. I dont care if you think it is important, because it is not. And what others think of your excuse is important, if it is not valid in their eyes why would they schedule around it?
"hey guys, can we change game nights, i like to play with myself mon-thursday, so tuesday no longer works for me." According to many of you this is a valid reason to rearrange other's schedules when in fact it is not.
You may not mind rearranging your and all your friend's schedules around one person's outrageous video gaming schedule, but most normal people would not share this view, and quite frankly its sad and pathetic that people would hold a game like that up alongside, family, work and real life as a good reason for anything, especailly when they already spend so much time doing it.
Can we reschedule to another night? Really that's demanding and selfish?
Son I think you should reexamine your priorities. D&D is not Serious Business. Let's put this in perspective shall we?
Seriously. Let's put your stance into perspective. You all get together once a week to play Halo 3, drink and either watch a movie and or play D&D. Someone in this group begins to have another social obligation (wow) and asks if they can maybe move Game Night. Everyone's schedule is pretty flexible during the week.
And your reaction is. "HOW DARE YOU YOU **** TARD!"
You see the thing is contrary to your little frothing lunatic fantasy, Wow is not a single player experience. Especially when Raiding. Just because the other players aren't present in the same room doesn't mean you are not gaming with other people. Those other people could easiily be friends as well, who could very likely end up better friends than some of the people you know in real life. It's also not YOUR personal situation. Infact the situation is quite explained in the original thread and it turned out that guess what the group could infact reschedule without causing any major issues. (and I doubt your schedule is that filled up that you could only possibly game ONE set day a week that can't be changed period)
WoW is the equivalent to going out clubbing or hanging out with another group of friends, versus that local Game Night.
The only thing sad here is that someone can take their recreation activity so seriously that they feel they can mock, and put down someone else's choice of recreation activities. It's also this attitude which has been slowly strangling the life out of the P&PRPG market. We aren't getting new blood because frankly we have alot of nutjobs in this hobby that think D&D/insert RPG here should automatically come first and foremost hobbywise.
Later in the original thread it comes out that the WoW guy, started raiding on Tuesdays too. This player might very well need an Intervention at this point, that or he's not really playing all that time and is just using Wow as an excuse to get away from someone at the table for a while because that player or dm is acting in a way this person does not find as enjoyable to be around as his guildmates, tv, or SINGLE PLAYER games or heck boardgames with another batch of friends.
I honestly think that's pretty douchy of the WoW player. Its fine to restrict one or two nights, but you really need four nights? Seriously?
I would say the same thing if it were "I need to go clubbing four nights a week" or "I need to have a movie night with my wife four nights a week". One or two nights, that's completely fine. Even a last minute change, okay, I can live with that. But four nights a week is pretty excessive.
Cpt_Micha, I think the problem isn't WoW v DnD. Its four nights of WoW instead of one night of DnD. In the other thread, it was stated that the WoW player wanted to move it to a weekend but everyone else had family obligations.
I honestly think that's pretty douchy of the WoW player. Its fine to restrict one or two nights, but you really need four nights? Seriously?
I would say the same thing if it were "I need to go clubbing four nights a week" or "I need to have a movie night with my wife four nights a week". One or two nights, that's completely fine. Even a last minute change, okay, I can live with that. But four nights a week is pretty excessive.
I don't think he's really raiding every night myself. I think he's just using it as an excuse to get away for a while.
Announcing that he's going to start raiding on the day that the group just happened to reschedule to, is pretty douchy there I won't argue. But I also think it's a hint from him that there is one or more persons he just doesn't feel like gaming with at that table, but is too nice to say anything about it.
I play starcraft typically at night, or online rp. I even do Iccup (basically it's starcraft's professional ladder system. Rookies and suck and fails stay at the bottom like me :-p) but I'll game with my friends at the drop of a hat. on Raid night, when it comes to my group I understand if someone can't make it. Do you know why? Cause a Raid is like a Clan War, it's a social obligation. If I'm in a Clan War or clan tournament that night, I can't make it to Game Night, because frankly I'm abandoning my Team if I go to Game Night instead of participate. So I can empathize with the position very well. Heck I've had people in my group who were not only Guild Officers but also among the best players on their server (to the point they could have joined a Pro Team and got paid to play). I can understand if someone can't make it, even for three nights a week.
The other reason of course is Game Night is just that, Game Night. It's not more important than life itself, it's a hobby and time killed with my face to face friends.
Hell given our fluxuating schedules in my group, We quite often have to change Game Night as it is. There are weeks where none of us are available for the evening. Raid night taking priority is understandable. I'm not going to kick you away from my table just because you couldn't make it to Game Night. Raids, Clan wars, Clan tournaments etc those? Those hold considerable more social ramifications for repeatedly missing. Such as your Raid Spot, spot in the Clan War, tournament or in some cases loss of your position in the Guild or Clan alltogether.
I'm not going to stop being your friend just cause you can't make it to Game Nights.
Since you can play a video game at any time
You can no more partake of a WoW raid "at any time" than you can a D&D game. The limitations of timing and getting a group together are largely identical, with teh added difficulty that a WoW raid involves far more people and schedules.
this does not fit into the category of things it is appropriate to ask to reschedule your gaming group for,
In your biased opinion.
especially if they are already on a set schedule.
His raiding is also on a set schedule.
The idea of rearranging my life around someone's playing of a video game, no matter what game it is, is ridiculous.
The only ridiculous thing here is that you apparently consider a D&D game to be your life.
It is the height of selfishness for the person playing the video game to expect this 'demand' on thier time to have any affect on others whatsoever.
Nonsense.
I dont care if you think it is important, because it is not.
In this you are simply wrong. There is no other way to put it.
And what others think of your excuse is important, if it is not valid in their eyes why would they schedule around it?
Why do you feel teh need to use loaded language like "excuse"
"hey guys, can we change game nights, i like to play with myself mon-thursday, so tuesday no longer works for me." According to many of you this is a valid reason to rearrange other's schedules when in fact it is not.
This is, by a wide margin, the stupidest argument I have read on these forums in months. Given the plethora of nonsense spewed here I hope you appreciate the full weight of this statement.
You may not mind rearranging your and all your friend's schedules around one person's outrageous video gaming schedule, but most normal people would not share this view, and quite frankly its sad and pathetic that people would hold a game like that up alongside, family, work and real life as a good reason for anything, especailly when they already spend so much time doing it.
In what way to you believe insults and personal attacks bolster your position?
And FYI, D&D is not "family, work and real life", it is also a game.
Cpt_Micha, I think the problem isn't WoW v DnD. Its four nights of WoW instead of one night of DnD. In the other thread, it was stated that the WoW player wanted to move it to a weekend but everyone else had family obligations.
Which means the answer to his request is clearly "Sorry, but no." There is nothing wrong with asking and his reasons for not being able to keep to the D&D schedule are immaterial.
I honestly think that's pretty douchy of the WoW player.
Why is it "douchey" to ask to reschedule the game night?
Its fine to restrict one or two nights, but you really need four nights? Seriously?
No, it's fine to do it as much as he wants. It's his choice. It is not a choice I would make but to deride the player for it is most certainly not fine. It is his time and his life and he can spend it how he pleases.
I would say the same thing if it were "I need to go clubbing four nights a week" or "I need to have a movie night with my wife four nights a week". One or two nights, that's completely fine. Even a last minute change, okay, I can live with that. But four nights a week is pretty excessive.
Why? What activities is it "acceptable" to do "four nights a week"? Why do you feel it is your right to dictate to others what are acceptable choices for them to make with the life and their free time?
Seriously though, this has been an interesting thread; educational almost you might say. Anything I could have said, is said by people already, leaving me little to add. It's like a warm, fuzzy feeling you get sometimes.... Like when I used to climb the rope in gym class.
{Cookie for anyone who gets the reference!}
The Solution: Find a day in which everyone can play.
The Secondary problem: The Wow player cant find a day in which he can mesh with the others.
The Secondary solution: The Wow player chooses between Wow or D&D.
Thank you for pointing out that I am wrong, I have seen the error of my ways and...wait nevermind, that didn't change anything whatsoever.
So now you are judging my want to play with myself every night and still have my D&D game fit within my master schedule. But I can't judge a MMORPG and the scheduling conflicts that creates? Hypocrite. and the argument I have put forward fits along the same lines as your and other's arguments that it does not matter what I am doing, if it is important to me others should consider it important enough to change their lives for. that is exactly what you are saying and I disagree.
Also I like how tell me how personal attacks dont bolster your position right after having declared my argument "the stupidest argument I have read on these forums in months." Double hypocrite.
Anyway, that is not the point, the point is that real life takes presidence, so reschduling around work or family issues is ok, reschduling around another player adding a 4th night of gaming does not fit the bill. It is his choice if he wants to play another night of WoW, but the others have real things they need to fit in their lives and would like to keep their ONE night of gaming. So their schedules do take presidence over the Wower's, simple logic and reasoning can get you there. Real life = Important, Video games = not important. the D&Ders are not asking anyone to reschdule anything around them, they had made a decision as a group on the best night for all of them to fit into their lives and to change that for a player that wants to go home and play a video game makes little sense.
and excuse is not a loaded term, nor is the word want. I
do not consider D&D game to be my life, I play the game and I do not ask that anyone reschedul their lives around me and my gaming habits. My opinion that holding a video game to the same importance as family, friends and work is sad and pathetic is in no way a personal attack, it is merely my opinion.
The problem: There is only so much time in the week.
The Solution: Find a day in which everyone can play.
The Secondary problem: The Wow player cant find a day in which he can mesh with the others.
The Secondary solution: The Wow player chooses between Wow or D&D.
A Man/Woman of logic!
But I'm still curious how "playing WoW with 60 other people you know and chat with all the time" is "playing a video game on your own"?
If you can explain how this way of thinking works, then I might actually follow your logic.
Right now, you seem to consider people you only talk to online as "not people". Is that you think about it? Because if it is, then I understand your point completely. (Of course I still disagree completely, but I'll never be able to convince you anyway if that's how you think about it)
. My opinion that holding a video game to the same importance as family, friends and work is sad and pathetic is in no way a personal attack, it is merely my opinion.
"Gay people are sad and pathetic sinning abominations against god.. it's not a personal attack it's merely my opinion"-anonymous.
Just wanted to put your post and opinion into proper context there.
Your opinion can be insulting without you having to single out a given individual.
And your opinion is insulting.
Futhermore, seriously? who in this thread is the one proclaiming D&D> all hobbies first and foremost? You have. Now who in this thread said WoW is as important as work, family or friends? No one. Infact you made that position up in order to make your vitrolic rantings seem less silly.
D&D is as much a game as Wow or any other. Once again it's attitudes like this that are destroying the hobby.
Obviously Herrozerro's way is the correct way.
But I'm still curious how "playing WoW with 60 other people you know and chat with all the time" is "playing a video game on your own"?
If you can explain how this way of thinking works, then I might actually follow your logic.
Right now, you seem to consider people you only talk to online as "not people". Is that you think about it? Because if it is, then I understand your point completely. (Of course I still disagree completely, but I'll never be able to convince you anyway if that's how you think about it)
Even if I have mentioned this in my arguments it really is neither here nor there. the fact is that you are playing a game that can be played 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 4 weeks a month, 12 months a year, 10 years a decade, 10 decades a century, 10 centuries a millenium..etc.. There are no time contraints other than your other activities outside this game. you might say "raiding only happens at these certain times and you have to be there or get kicked out of the guild or whatever may happen." I think that if you really cared you could join another guild, or figure out a different raiding schedule in another matter. If the game really demands 4 nights a week of your time, and you give it that, it should not be on the other people in your life to work around that, quite the opposite. It really does not matter that there happens to be other people controlling the little digital people on your monitor, or that you can communicate with them in some fashion. What matter is that you are demanding that others work around your scheduled video games, games that do not require others to play, this is a decision that you have made and others need not respect it or work around it.
and I dont agree that online friends are along the same levels as real life friends. Sure some online friends may be real life friends or may become them, but that does not mean that the 60 people you raid with are as good of friends (or are even your friends) as the 6 people that you meet with and hangout with at other times. Where are they when you need to move, or a family member dies, or you need someone to hangout with and talk with (talking over the internet is not even close to speaking with one another in person, so dont even go there.). Maybe in our twisted little world people think they are their friends, but the fact is that these relationships do not hold the same meaning as an in person one, not to say that a meaningful relationship can not grow from this but for that to happen truly it would have to transition into a real life person to person relationship.
On a side note, several of my group play MMORPGs but we do not have an issue, because they dont expect that we should be subject to their whim to play another game.
. My opinion that holding a video game to the same importance as family, friends and work is sad and pathetic is in no way a personal attack, it is merely my opinion.
"Gay people are sad and pathetic sinning abominations against god.. it's not a personal attack it's merely my opinion"-anonymous.
Just wanted to put your post and opinion into proper context there.
Your opinion can be insulting without you having to single out a given individual.
And your opinion is insulting.
Futhermore, seriously? who in this thread is the one proclaiming D&D> all hobbies first and foremost? You have. Now who in this thread said WoW is as important as work, family or friends? No one. Infact you made that position up in order to make your vitrolic rantings seem less silly.
D&D is as much a game as Wow or any other. Once again it's attitudes like this that are destroying the hobby.
My point of view: if someone is saying things like this, and your example goes far beyond what I have said, then ignore them. You need not take offense by someone who does not share your views, how ever ridiculous you think their point of view. People take offense in differnt ways and different degrees, some by small slights others (like me) dont take offense at all, I merely laugh. And quite frankly I dont care if me thinking that playing a MMORPG 4 nights a week is sad and pathetic insults you or anyone else, if it does they need to get over themselves and take a step back.
I never stated that D&D was first and foremost, it just happens that D&D is what we on these formums have in common and what our discussions are based around. I have pointed out though that a single person's want to play WoW (especially 4 days a week of it) is in no way a reason, let alone a good reason, to reschedule game night for 5 other people, especailly if this is their one night a week to get away, and some people can not dedicate more than this to go out and have some fun. Just because you have and can squeeze so much fun and awesomeness into your life does not mean that another can do the same.
I have pointed out though that a single person's want to play WoW (especially 4 days a week of it) is in no way a reason, let alone a good reason, to reschedule game night for 5 other people[...]
And I suppose "Well, Monday night is bowling night, Tuesday is when I get my manicure and pedicure, Wednesday is soccer practice, Thursday is bar night..." would be more acceptable?
Face it, people aren't saying you're wrong for not wanting to change days: that's the purpose of a question, to get an answer.
What people are chafing at is how you're saying they're wrong for asking.
I have pointed out though that a single person's want to play WoW (especially 4 days a week of it) is in no way a reason, let alone a good reason, to reschedule game night for 5 other people[...]
And I suppose "Well, Monday night is bowling night, Tuesday is when I get my manicure and pedicure, Wednesday is soccer practice, Thursday is bar night..." would be more acceptable?
Face it, people aren't saying you're wrong for not wanting to change days: that's the purpose of a question, to get an answer.
What people are chafing at is how you're saying they're wrong for asking.
That is because I think he should make some decisions for himself, like the decision to give up or change one night of his WoWing before he decides that it is better to have everyone else change there busy schedules to accomodate his gaming schedule. In my group, and I imagine it is the same for the group in question, our gaming schedule is based of work, family and other life issues. Never would one of us persume to think that their gaming schedule should be taken into account whatsoever, especailly over those of us with things other than video games in our schedules. Pleny of my players play video games, but they do it on the off-game nights, this I can respect and it is because they show me the same amount of respect that I show them. Trying to make others change their lives based on a video game does not show any kind of respect to anyone and is self-centered at best.
edit And if you are busy every night of the week, I dont care what you are doing, then maybe you need to find a group that games on the weekends rather than pushing your schedule on others.
My point of view: if someone is saying things like this, and your example goes far beyond what I have said, then ignore them. You need not take offense by someone who does not share your views, how ever ridiculous you think their point of view. People take offense in differnt ways and different degrees, some by small slights others (like me) dont take offense at all, I merely laugh.
And quite frankly I dont care if me thinking that playing a MMORPG 4 nights a week is sad and pathetic insults you or anyone else, if it does they need to get over themselves and take a step back.
I never stated that D&D was first and foremost, it just happens that D&D is what we on these formums have in common and what our discussions are based around. I have pointed out though that a single person's want to play WoW (especially 4 days a week of it) is in no way a reason, let alone a good reason, to reschedule game night for 5 other people, especailly if this is their one night a week to get away, and some people can not dedicate more than this to go out and have some fun. Just because you have and can squeeze so much fun and awesomeness into your life does not mean that another can do the same.
It's not that far off actually. You are still being unnecessarily cruel to others simply because they have a different way of spending their time than yourself, when it doesn't harm anyone for them to spend it.
There is Much Irony in this post of yours.
Just because this is a D&D forum doesn't give anyone the right to treat D&D as if it were some how some Superior Activity to other hobbies. Especially here in OTT. Maybe that sort of thing flies in Genital Discussion but it doesn't fly here.
For all you know he's helping the Guild set up a new Raid on Tuesday nights. This might be temporary. It's pretty common for a Guild's best players to set up tactics and strategies for the other Raid teams. he might even be helping a new officer get the hang of things. If he can't make it, he can't make it. However this is not a justification for your piss poor attitude of "well he is obviously inferior to me because he plays wow four nights a week!"
If the group really can't shift to a weekend date then that's just how it's going to be.
The wow player isn't wrong just for asking nor is he being selfish to reschedule Game Night.
Infact the group had shown a willingness to reschedule game night to Tuesday. So yes the group has demonstrated an ability to properly manage their time. Which is a skill critical in my opinion to being a functioning adult is the ability to adapt and change schedules. Otherwise you would never get anything done. The fact that the wow player, told them he's starting Raiding on Tuesday tells me really that maybe the group won't be gaming with him for a while.
I don't think he's really raiding every night myself. I think he's just using it as an excuse to get away for a while.
If that is the case, then its even worse. Its one thing to be compelled to play a different game, but to lie to your friends is worse. If you really need time or you're burned out, just tell the group. Take a break and see if you want to play again. But don't hold your group hostage and waste their time.
Which means the answer to his request is clearly "Sorry, but no." There is nothing wrong with asking and his reasons for not being able to keep to the D&D schedule are immaterial.
Why is it "douchey" to ask to reschedule the game night?
There is nothing wrong with asking, but the way this player was described behaving was pretty douchey. Based upon the OP, the player was distracted and first left early. Then he lied about having to do chores. Then he claimed to be snowed in. Then he started to play via webcam while playing WoW. Then he asked for the group to change dates. They suggested a day which he originally did not include in his raid days. Then he stated that that day was also unavailable.
So that whole situation was handled very poorly by the player. The whole set of events (not just asking for the sessions to be moved) was what made the player a jerk.
No, it's fine to do it as much as he wants. It's his choice. It is not a choice I would make but to deride the player for it is most certainly not fine. It is his time and his life and he can spend it how he pleases.
Instead of "fine", I should have said "reasonable", "fair", or "considerate". If you want to play WoW more, its fine, but it seems unreasonable to have your DnD group reschedule their games just to accomodate you given the circumstances.
Why? What activities is it "acceptable" to do "four nights a week"? Why do you feel it is your right to dictate to others what are acceptable choices for them to make with the life and their free time?
They can do whatever they want with their free time. I am stating my belief on this situation and what I would do in it. I have no problem if the group decides to reschedule around the WoW player or if the group kicks the player out.
I just saw that people seemed to focus on the fact the player was playing WoW. I wanted to point out that for most recreational activities, I believe it is unreasonable to require others reschedule as the situation described.
I also thought it was worthwhile to clarify how the sitaution was described since it was not accurately described in this thread. It is not simply the case of a player asking for the game to be rescheduled and Baphogoat railing against WoW. There are other circumstances which leads me to believe the player in question is in the wrong.
Using this method of decision-making, we are no longer dealing with facts, but rather opinions. Is Baphogoat's opinion that real-life friends are more important than online friends incorrect? I would say yes, if only because of his blatant disregard for the (in my opinion, major) inconvenience of these online friends in exchange for the (in my opinion, minor) convenience of his real-life friends. Viewing the situation under this different light, however, I find it more difficult to present such a black-and-white judgement as I previously offered.
hat is because I think he should make some decisions for himself
... No you don't. You've been saying flat-up that he shouldn't even ask, that he should just figure it out himself. That's not someone making "some decisions for [theirselves]", it's just them bending over for what you want.
Asking a question isn't bad. How they react if they get an answer might be, but the question isn't invalid.
edit And if you are busy every night of the week, I dont care what you are doing, then maybe you need to find a group that games on the weekends rather than pushing your schedule on others.
And THAT is a lot more reasonable then just frothing at the mouth because it's WoW. Obsessing over just what the activity is really just makes you look like you have a chip on your shoulder.
I can't deny the fact that online friends are not quite as... well, real as real-life friends. I possess enough unbiased, logical thinking capability to admit that much. I suppose, then, that the ultimate decision rests on exactly how much an individual values their real-life friends over their online friends. Clearly, Baphogoat values his real-life friends far, far more than any potential online friends, while most of the rest of us see real-life friends and online friends with more or less equal value.
Using this method of decision-making, we are no longer dealing with facts, but rather opinions. Is Baphogoat's opinion that real-life friends are more important than online friends incorrect? I would say yes, if only because of his blatant disregard for the (in my opinion, major) inconvenience of these online friends in exchange for the (in my opinion, minor) convenience of his real-life friends. Viewing the situation under this different light, however, I find it more difficult to present such a black-and-white judgement as I previously offered.
I have four friends.
And dozens of acquaintices.
Friends are people that are practically family for me.
Acquaintice is everyone else that I find it agreeable to be around.
One of my Friends is online. I've never met this person face to face, but I know that if we were face to face we'd be like family just like my other Friends.
Online versus, real life has nothing to do with the quality of the person you are getting to know.
Boraxe,Thank you for pointing out that I am wrong, I have seen the error of my ways and...wait nevermind, that didn't change anything whatsoever.
I didn't think it would change anything, I just thought you should know.
So now you are judging my want to play with myself every night and still have my D&D game fit within my master schedule. But I can't judge a MMORPG and the scheduling conflicts that creates? Hypocrite.
Again with the personal insults. This really doesn't help.
and the argument I have put forward fits along the same lines as your and other's arguments that it does not matter what I am doing, if it is important to me others should consider it important enough to change their lives for. that is exactly what you are saying and I disagree.
Sorry, this is too jumbled to make sense of.
Also I like how tell me how personal attacks dont bolster your position right after having declared my argument "the stupidest argument I have read on these forums in months." Double hypocrite.
I do not think that word means what you think it means. I did not insult you. The argument was stupid, I did not claim you were.
Anyway, that is not the point, the point is that real life takes presidence, so reschduling around work or family issues is ok, reschduling around another player adding a 4th night of gaming does not fit the bill.
In your opinion. Others disagree.
It is his choice if he wants to play another night of WoW, but the others have real things they need to fit in their lives and would like to keep their ONE night of gaming.
Yes, and for that reason the WoW player is SOL. He has chosen WoW over D&D. It is not a choice I would make but that doesn't make it wrong.
So their schedules do take presidence over the Wower's, simple logic and reasoning can get you there. Real life = Important, Video games = not important.
D&D is not "real life".
the D&Ders are not asking anyone to reschdule anything around them, they had made a decision as a group on the best night for all of them to fit into their lives and to change that for a player that wants to go home and play a video game makes little sense.
Yes, and as I said that means the WoW player is SOL.
and excuse is not a loaded term, nor is the word want. I
In this instance it most certainly is a loaded term. It suggests the player is doing something wrong. "Reason" would have been more appropriate if you are not trying to imply negative connotations.
I do not consider D&D game to be my life, I play the game and I do not ask that anyone reschedul their lives around me and my gaming habits.
And if something else came up would you? And if you asked for the game to be rescheduled how would you react to someone who responded as rudely and derisively to your request as have you?
My opinion that holding a video game
Again, you focus on the "video game" aspect rather than the fact he is playing a game with other real people. WoW is a medium, just as is a tabletop game like D&D, for a social activity.
to the same importance as family, friends and work is sad and pathetic is in no way a personal attack, it is merely my opinion.
D&D is not "family, friends and work", it is a game, and WoW can involve "family and friends". When I played WoW easily half of the people with whom I regularly played were real-world friends - many from my D&D group - and a handful more were family members.
There was a quote from Baphogoat here, but the forum ate it. Piece of crap.
If someone in my family died, the second person I'd go to would be my long-distance friend, who I can only see like once every 2 months and I'd probably talk on the phone or through the web.
The first person would be my girlfriend, and the only reason we can talk face to face is because she moved in with me, because she used to live as far away as my other friend.
I met both of them, like most of my friends actually, online. Just because you do not attach any importance to such a friendship, does not mean other people don't. When I play games, the people I play with can become my friends, and easily as close a friend as people that I game with in person.
And I know I can count on them as much as I can count on the people I know from the real world, even though they can't always help.
Anyway, it seems obvious that you value "real life" a lot more then I do, which is fine. But it doesn't hold true for everyone.
D&D is not "family, friends and work", it is a game, and WoW can involve "family and friends". When I played WoW easily half of the people with whom I regularly played were real-world friends - many from my D&D group - and a handful more were family members.
Never once did I say that D&D was real life. What I said is that we schedule our gaming day around our real life issues such as family, friends and work. To change that game day we would have to work around these issues, but to work around someone's other activities that conflict with everyone else's schedule is not something that we consider.
If someone in my family died, the second person I'd go to would be my long-distance friend, who I can only see like once every 2 months and I'd probably talk on the phone or through the web.
The first person would be my girlfriend, and the only reason we can talk face to face is because she moved in with me, because she used to live as far away as my other friend.
I met both of them, like most of my friends actually, online. Just because you do not attach any importance to such a friendship, does not mean other people don't. When I play games, the people I play with can become my friends, and easily as close a friend as people that I game with in person.
And I know I can count on them as much as I can count on the people I know from the real world, even though they can't always help.
Anyway, it seems obvious that you value "real life" a lot more then I do, which is fine. But it doesn't hold true for everyone.
Thats fine, not knocking you for that, but is a far throw away from "these 60 guys that I raid with are my friends."
Never once did I say that D&D was real life. What I said is that we schedule our gaming day around our real life issues such as family, friends and work. To change that game day we would have to work around these issues, but to work around someone's other activities that conflict with everyone else's schedule is not something that we consider.
And there is nothing wrong with that. The issue I, and others, have is not with this position - which is prefectly reasonable - it is with your derision towards and rudeness about why this player is asking for the change. They are two separate issues entirely.
Never once did I say that D&D was real life. What I said is that we schedule our gaming day around our real life issues such as family, friends and work. To change that game day we would have to work around these issues, but to work around someone's other activities that conflict with everyone else's schedule is not something that we consider.
And there is nothing wrong with that. The issue I, and others, have is not with this position - which is prefectly reasonable - it is with your derision towards and rudeness about why this player is asking for the change. They are two separate issues entirely.
Well, I think his request is ridiculous. And it is not any different than asking your group to move game night because you have TV shows you like to watch mon-thurs. This is not a good reason and either is 'having' to play WoW or any other game 4 nights a week. This is especailly true when you take in to account his behavior and treatment of the rest of the group leading up to this discussion. What he should do is either stop coming to game, letting the group know, or leave that one night open to join the group. If decides to continue wit the group he should leave WoW, TV and any other distracting activities at home for the night, and participate in the chosen activity of the night, in this case is D&D.
You may think that I am being rude, but I find nothing about me thinking a video game is not a reason(look I didn't say excuse) to reschedule a game night as being rude. The reason why they need to change game night is very important, and should be taken into account. Even if I dont think that WoW is worth my time, I do not necessarily look down on others for playing it, but when their playing it starts to affect my life, then my views change, and it becomes an issue. It is the choice in the player's life and should stay that way. I dont play it myself and I dont think that my life should be impacted by it.
I have players that may not be able to make it for one reason or another, but they dont expect the rest of us to make that change. We may end up changing things around for that week to accomodate them, but they do not expect it or ask it, because they respect the other players and their lives. Because of this respect that is shown between us we are willing to make these changes, but the player in question had not acted in a respectful manner towards his group and should not be given the same consideration.
My blah
Thats fine, not knocking you for that, but is a far throw away from "these 60 guys that I raid with are my friends."
But if out of those 60 people, I have 5 friends like the ones I described, then I have more friends on my WoW raid then I do around the D&D table. At that point your whole argument kinda breaks down, doesn't it?
It might be a game, but so is D&D. So the only reason that game A is important, but game B is not, is the fact that one is played on the computer?
Neither can be more "played at any time" (you can as easily argue "change guilds" as you can "change D&D groups"), both have an equal amount of social involvement, neither is more important to "real life". It's just that one is on the computer, and the other is not.
Excellent replies all around, though try to remember to use your indoor voices. Else Ma {Webster} might decide it's time to bring out the 
of love.
My blah
Thats fine, not knocking you for that, but is a far throw away from "these 60 guys that I raid with are my friends."
But if out of those 60 people, I have 5 friends like the ones I described, then I have more friends on my WoW raid then I do around the D&D table. At that point your whole argument kinda breaks down, doesn't it?
It might be a game, but so is D&D. So the only reason that game A is important, but game B is not, is the fact that one is played on the computer?
Neither can be more "played at any time" (you can as easily argue "change guilds" as you can "change D&D groups"), both have an equal amount of social involvement, neither is more important to "real life". It's just that one is on the computer, and the other is not.
If you play WoW you can get on your computer and play at anytime, there is nothing stopping you from playing the game when you want. With D&D you can not do this unless you 1)can DM yourself or 2)have friends who are at your beck and call 24/7. So there most certainly is a difference here. There is also difference between friends online and friends in real life, I am not saying that one is better than the other (I prefer real), but there is a difference. Online you dont have to experience the full 'effect', you get what they want to show you, you dont share a continous experience but an intermitten one. In real life you are getting a fuller experience (wether that is good or bad is up to you), you see how they act, you spend time with them continously seeing things about them that would not be transfer via an online relationship, you can read body language and facial expression both important parts of human interaction and communication. The experiences are different, and they offer different things, I see real life relationships as having the capacity for deeper more meaningful connections, but maybe that is just me.
If you play WoW you can get on your computer and play at anytime, there is nothing stopping you from playing the game when you want.
You mean aside from the people you play online with not being there all the time?
WoW requires planning, time and scheduling in order to run efficiently. Just like trying to plan a day around D&D, scheduling conflicts come into play, and the "real world" cannot simply be put on hold because you want to play D&D {or WoW}. WoW is real people, playing a real game, with real time schedules, and requires real investment, as any D&D game would. Putting off D&D for WoW is a personal choice, and no less wrong or right then someone choosing to put off WoW for D&D.
If you play WoW you can get on your computer and play at anytime, there is nothing stopping you from playing the game when you want.
You mean aside from the people you play online with not being there all the time?
Sure, it stops you from playing an organized raid, but in no way stops you from play the game. I'm sure at any given time you could find people to play with, I mean you already raid regularly with 60 people, what are the cahnces that soem of them are online at any given time?
Anyway, I am done arguing this point, I really dont care about the game or styles of play within the game.
What I do care about is players that can't step away from their computers for one night to see friends. I find it ridiculous, and you guys can rant to me all you want about how many friends you have online but that does not excuse you from ignoring your other friends or blowing them off.
I find it ridiculous, and you guys can rant to me all you want about how many friends you have online but that does not excuse you from ignoring your other friends or blowing them off.
However, I must point out, the only person making any kind of reference to "blowing friends off for WoW", is you. Nobody else shares this sentiment {that I have read anyway}, aside from you injecting it into your debate in order to somehow justify your own unique POV. Just playing Devil's Advocate here mind you.
Sure, it stops you from playing an organized raid, but in no way stops you from play the game.
When the point of playing the game (for this person at this time) is raiding, it makes a pretty big difference whether you can actually raid or not. That's like someone saying they want to watch the Superbowl with their pals can just watch TV any time they like. While true, it entirely misses the point.
If you play WoW you can get on your computer and play at anytime, there is nothing stopping you from playing the game when you want.
You mean aside from the people you play online with not being there all the time?
Sure, it stops you from playing an organized raid, but in no way stops you from play the game.
By the same logic, your friends not being around doesn't stop you from playing D&D. You can open up the books and have a fun little game with yourself whenever you want.
I'm really not sure why you don't see this... if you play WoW for groups, then you can't play it "any time", because you have to get everyone together, just like a D&D game.
I find it ridiculous, and you guys can rant to me all you want about how many friends you have online but that does not excuse you from ignoring your other friends or blowing them off.
However, I must point out, the only person making any kind of reference to "blowing friends off for WoW", is you. Nobody else shares this sentiment {that I have read anyway}, aside from you injecting it into your debate in order to somehow justify your own unique POV. Just playing Devil's Advocate here mind you.
The point of the thread was to discuss a player who was leaving game early, not coming to game, making up lies to let him play by webcam, all so he could play WoW. Certainly sounds like blowing your friends off even if it is halfassed and it is not giving them the respect that a friend deserves. Especially if you have made that commitment to them. "He is commited to raiding too" I hear people saying, well one commitment was made before the other one, so he should not have commited to something that he was not going to do. It is obvious that WoW is more important to him (very much so by knowing that he plays it FOUR NIGHTS A WEEK) so he should have not commited to a game night if he knew he was going to be raiding, or he should not have commited to the extra raids if he knew he was suppose to be gaming. Either way he is blowing his game group off, and not doing it in a very respectful manner, and then on top of that asking them to change nights. If these guys are raiding 4 nights a week already it seems like it would be easy to convince them (or some of them) to add an additional night so he could raid more. Plus how hard is it to get people to walk 5 feet and get on there computer? Not nearly as hard as getting people to get their books, go to their cars, drive to someone's house (about 20 minute drive for me), setup the game table, play and then have to make it back home to get a good nights sleep so they can work the next morning.
The problem: There is only so much time in the week.
The Solution: Find a day in which everyone can play.
The Secondary problem: The Wow player cant find a day in which he can mesh with the others.
The Secondary solution: The Wow player chooses between Wow or D&D.
A Man/Woman of logic!
Exactly. Find a day. A day which can mesh. That requiers asking. Asking if there is a diffrent day they could scheduel it on. If their is, great, if there is not, then they choose. Basically what everyone but you has been saying since the thread started.
The point of the thread was to discuss a player who was leaving game early, not coming to game, making up lies to let him play by webcam, all so he could play WoW. Certainly sounds like blowing your friends off even if it is halfassed and it is not giving them the respect that a friend deserves.
Yes, but you did not say "he", you said "I find it ridiculous, and you guys can rant to me all you want about how many friends you have online but that does not excuse you from ignoring your other friends or blowing them off." Your comment was made directly towards people here who disagree with you.
The basically problem is that all of your claims about WoW, MMOs and those who play them is that they are simply not true. You have chosen a baseless stance and are acting on that, rudely and aggressively.
I want to ask you an sincere question, though I suspect you will not give an honest response: do you really believe all the utter nonsense you are spouting about WoW and WoW players or are you hurt that you seem to be losing a friend?
It's not a simple matter of walking a few feet to your computer. More often than not, you're talkin' different friggin' time zones. Plenty common as well, you're talkin' different friggin' countries. I think you need to play an MMO so that you can get a proper appreciation of what this stuff entails. As it stands, you have demonstrated that you have absolutely no idea what's involved - even though plenty of people here have done their best to educate you. It looks like you let your bias cloud your mind so much that even repeated explanations simply vanish for you. Instead of making stuff up and assuming how easy things are, why not take a look at what the people that have/do play MMOs are telling you? Who knows, you may even learn something.
I dont care about your MMO or how you say it works, if you are raiding with them then it is obvious that you are playing at the same time, so I dont see how timezone or country has anything to do with it, they are on, you are on. See if they can do it the same time the next day if you have other commitments.
That is not the issue that we are discussing. It may be the issue that people have decided to focus on for some reason or another. It may be related to the original thread topic but fails to touch on the subject.
To state that you can't do something, especailly something you have commited yourself too, beause you 'have' to raid (like some magic force is compelling you) even though you do this four days a week already is less then reasonable. That is the issue, not how your stupid MMO works, because you could very well get online and start to find others to raid with if you wanted to setup raiding at a different time then your standard raids.
Would those of you advocating that the group consider rescheduling the session for WoW raiding agree to do the same for absolutely anything else a player might reschedule for or is there a minimum justification necessary in order for you to agree to it?
If so, then what would fall outside that line for you as not good enough of a reason?
The reason why they need to change game night is very important, and should be taken into account.
Want. Not need. No one ever needs to change game night. If I wish to jerk off to pictures of goats on mondays, my business. Nothing wrong in asking if it would be okay to play on a diffrent night than monday. If noone else wants to play on a diffrent night, I need to either stop participating in the game, or bring the goats with me.
Asking is not demanding. Changing game day is not rescheduling your life, unless D&D is your life. Demanding anything about game night, (aside from the general demands that are implicit in any gathering, such as lawfull behavior) is ridiculous. Demanding that we have naked jello wrestling on game night is inapropriate. Asking if we can have naked jello wrestling on game night is not (well, mabey a little. Just don't make a habbit of it.)
Would those of you advocating that the group consider rescheduling the session for WoW raiding agree to do the same for absolutely anything else a player might reschedule for or is there a minimum justification necessary in order for you to agree to it?
If so, then what would fall outside that line for you as not good enough of a reason?
No, you do not need any reason to consider rescheduling. To actually rescheduel, well, thats a simple group vote. If the group playes on monday, and 4 of the 5 members want to play on tuesday because they like to get drunk and vomit on ducks monday evenings, but the odd man out cannot because he has to take care of his dieing grandmother, then the guy with the dieing grandmother is out of luck.
The point of the thread was to discuss a player who was leaving game early, not coming to game, making up lies to let him play by webcam, all so he could play WoW. Certainly sounds like blowing your friends off even if it is halfassed and it is not giving them the respect that a friend deserves.
Yes, but you did not say "he", you said "I find it ridiculous, and you guys can rant to me all you want about how many friends you have online but that does not excuse you from ignoring your other friends or blowing them off." Your comment was made directly towards people here who disagree with you.
The basically problem is that all of your claims about WoW, MMOs and those who play them is that they are simply not true. You have chosen a baseless stance and are acting on that, rudely and aggressively.
I want to ask you an sincere question, though I suspect you will not give an honest response: do you really believe all the utter nonsense you are spouting about WoW and WoW players or are you hurt that you seem to be losing a friend?
And what utter nonsense would that be? That this player needs to get a life outside of an MMORPG? Or that he should treat his non-online friends with a little respect, maybe the respect that he seems to show to his online friends? Or that he should stick to his commitments and not expect people to bend to his schedule because he wants to play a game 4 nights a week instead of 3? Sounds like utter nonsense to me, how dare I suggest that someone respect other people's time and not ask them to rearrange their time off that they spend with family and friends so he can play a game that frankly (in my opinion, obviously) he plays to much of.
I'm not sorry if I offend you, because I dont see how my opinion on the matter would offend anyone. Who cares if I think MMORPGs are utter nonsense, to use Boraxe's term, and a complete waste of time and money? That I think that does not really matter if you think otherwise, because it is my opinion, and I am entitled to it.
Though my opinion on MMORPGs is not the issue (maybe for you it is), the issue is that this player expects people to change the day that works best for the rest of his group so he can do something that he has plenty of other time to do, dang only 3 nights a week to raid, how sad, it makes me cry. These other people have one day a week to game, dont you think 5 people's ONE game night is more important than 1/4 of one person's raid nights? I think so, even with my bias aside that stands true.
Would those of you advocating that the group consider rescheduling the session for WoW raiding agree to do the same for absolutely anything else a player might reschedule for or is there a minimum justification necessary in order for you to agree to it?
If so, then what would fall outside that line for you as not good enough of a reason?
No, you do not need any reason to consider rescheduling. To actually rescheduel, well, thats a simple group vote. If the group playes on monday, and 4 of the 5 members want to play on tuesday because they like to get drunk and vomit on ducks monday evenings, but the odd man out cannot because he has to take care of his dieing grandmother, then the guy with the dieing grandmother is out of luck.
This is backwards thinking. If everyone can make game night, but one guy would rather do something else, he is out of luck. Or you put it a vote, and switch game night. Now the one guy that can't make it on wednesday because of his dying grandmother does not get to game so one guy can get his 4th night of raids in? Wrong and illogical.
Dying grandmother = good reason
MMORPG = bad reason
Though my opinion on MMORPGs is not the issue (maybe for you it is), the issue is that this player expects people to change the day that works best for the rest of his group so he can do something that he has plenty of other time to do, dang only 3 nights a week to raid, how sad, it makes me cry. These other people have one day a week to game, dont you think 5 people's ONE game night is more important than 1/4 of one person's raid nights? I think so, even with my bias aside that stands true.
Sure. But what you think is as irrelevant as what I think. What matters is what the people invovled think. And to know that, the person in question should ask. Nothing ridiculous about that.
Though my opinion on MMORPGs is not the issue (maybe for you it is), the issue is that this player expects people to change the day that works best for the rest of his group so he can do something that he has plenty of other time to do, dang only 3 nights a week to raid, how sad, it makes me cry. These other people have one day a week to game, dont you think 5 people's ONE game night is more important than 1/4 of one person's raid nights? I think so, even with my bias aside that stands true.
Sure. But what you think is as irrelevant as what I think. What matters is what the people invovled think. And to know that, the person in question should ask. Nothing ridiculous about that.
There is if you consider the actions of the player up until now. If you totally disregard the reality of the situation and analyze it from within a vacuum, sure its fine, but they are not in a vacumm and there is past history, this needs to be taken into account. And by all accounts the player is in the wrong, with or with out the MMORPG.
This is backwards thinking. If everyone can make game night, but one guy would rather do something else, he is out of luck. Or you put it a vote, and switch game night. Now the one guy that can't make it on wednesday because of his dying grandmother does not get to game so one guy can get his 4th night of raids in? Wrong and illogical.
Dying grandmother = good reason
MMORPG = bad reason
Not at all. How good or bad a reason is, and how important it is to any particular person, is subjective. Each person will, obviously, weigh the merrits of the other peoples obligations as they will, and that will influence how they vote. Most likely their own obligations will take precesedence in their decision. Not illogical at all. The group made a decision for the group based upon the feelings and thoughts of the members of the group.
Favoring your own opinion is well and good. Expecting all others to bow down to your opinion in spite of their own, for no other reason than it is your opinion, is tyranny. Tyranny is typically held to be a bad thing. It is up to the group to decide if they want to change the game night for one of its members, not any one members right to demand such a change, or any third parties business to dictate what reasons are or are not acceptable causes to initate such a conversation.
Though my opinion on MMORPGs is not the issue (maybe for you it is), the issue is that this player expects people to change the day that works best for the rest of his group so he can do something that he has plenty of other time to do, dang only 3 nights a week to raid, how sad, it makes me cry. These other people have one day a week to game, dont you think 5 people's ONE game night is more important than 1/4 of one person's raid nights? I think so, even with my bias aside that stands true.
Sure. But what you think is as irrelevant as what I think. What matters is what the people invovled think. And to know that, the person in question should ask. Nothing ridiculous about that.
There is if you consider the actions of the player up until now. If you totally disregard the reality of the situation and analyze it from within a vacuum, sure its fine, but they are not in a vacumm and there is past history, this needs to be taken into account. And by all accounts the player is in the wrong, with or with out the MMORPG.
I'm not debating the "situation". I'm debating the merit of a particular stance, the reasonableness of a statment. This statment: "Asking them to rearrange ALL of their (probably busy) schedules because you want to play a video game is at the height of ridiculousness."
Interestingly enough, I do not disagree with this statment. Not untill you factor in the notion that, to the person making the statment, 'rearrange ALL of their schedules' is synonomous with 'play a game on a diffrent night'. "Asking them to rearrange the night on which they play a game because you want to play a video game is at the height of ridiculousness." is the sentiment I am arguing aginst.
As for wether or not that particular player was being a douche, or wether or not the group in question is likely to acquiesce, is not what I am discussing. If that is what you wish to discuss then:
A) The player is in the wrong. He should have asked to move the night from the begining instead of causing repeated problems and dragging the situation out unnecessarily.
B) I would not agree to move the game unless there was another night that was atleast as convienent for me as the current night, not so he could play wow. If he had a more serious reason I would be willing to accept greater hardship for his bennifit, in relative proportion to the merit of his reason and our level of friendship. I would expect the other party members to do the same when deciding their stance on changing game night.
I still see no wrong doing in asking. The players wrong doing was, as far as I can see, in waiting so long to ask as he did.
(Note: I still havnt read that other thread, this is just going on what I have heard of the situation in this thread.)
I dont care about your MMO or how you say it works, if you are raiding with them then it is obvious that you are playing at the same time, so I dont see how timezone or country has anything to do with it, they are on, you are on. See if they can do it the same time the next day if you have other commitments.
... so, exactly what you think is so vastly inappropriate to ask of a D&D group, is what you should ask of a WoW group?
I'm not debating the "situation". I'm debating the merit of a particular stance, the reasonableness of a statment. This statment: "Asking them to rearrange ALL of their (probably busy) schedules because you want to play a video game is at the height of ridiculousness."
Interestingly enough, I do not disagree with this statment. Not untill you factor in the notion that, to the person making the statment, 'rearrange ALL of their schedules' is synonomous with 'play a game on a diffrent night'. "Asking them to rearrange the night on which they play a game because you want to play a video game is at the height of ridiculousness." is the sentiment I am arguing aginst.
As for wether or not that particular player was being a douche, or wether or not the group in question is likely to acquiesce, is not what I am discussing. If that is what you wish to discuss then:
A) The player is in the wrong. He should have asked to move the night from the begining instead of causing repeated problems and dragging the situation out unnecessarily.
B) I would not agree to move the game unless there was another night that was atleast as convienent for me as the current night, not so he could play wow. If he had a more serious reason I would be willing to accept greater hardship for his bennifit, in relative proportion to the merit of his reason and our level of friendship. I would expect the other party members to do the same when deciding their stance on changing game night.
I still see no wrong doing in asking. The players wrong doing was, as far as I can see, in waiting so long to ask as he did.
(Note: I still havnt read that other thread, this is just going on what I have heard of the situation in this thread.)
Well then, we appear to be in complete agreement.
This is backwards thinking. If everyone can make game night, but one guy would rather do something else, he is out of luck. Or you put it a vote, and switch game night. Now the one guy that can't make it on wednesday because of his dying grandmother does not get to game so one guy can get his 4th night of raids in? Wrong and illogical.
Dying grandmother = good reason
MMORPG = bad reason
Who are you to say what's a good and bad reason for another group? I wouldn't presume to tell another group they're playing D&D wrong, so why should I presume they're scheduling their game wrong?
Who are you to say what's a good and bad reason for another group? I wouldn't presume to tell another group they're playing D&D wrong, so why should I presume they're scheduling their game wrong?
Lets put it this way then, it is relative. Dying grandma > MMORPG. Tell me that is not the truth. Family night > MMORPG, work > MMORPG, my hard earned free time > MMORPG. I'd like to hear your idea of an actual reason that is < MMORPG.
edit And I never said they were scheduling their game wrong, I didnt even get close to saying anything of the sort. I did point out though that the player in question had little right to ask them to reschedule their game. I dont care what they do one way or the other, that is their decision.
Lets put it this way then, it is relative.
It is not relative. You don't get to walk up to another group and say "you're doing it wrong". You don't get to tell them "your priorities are wrong". You don't get to do that. That group can, however it likes, decide how to manage itself. That is for that group, and that group alone, to decide. You don't GET a vote.
Lets put it this way then, it is relative.
It is not relative. You don't get to walk up to another group and say "you're doing it wrong". You don't get to tell them "your priorities are wrong". You don't get to do that. That group can, however it likes, decide how to manage itself. That is for that group, and that group alone, to decide. You don't GET a vote.
I do if they are reading this and agree with me.
If you ask the player in question he might think MMORPGs are the better reason, but ask the group and they might think that family is the better reason. So, in this case it is relative (depending for significance upon something else). In this case the significance of MMORPGs is relative to what the group thinks is more important, family or MMORPGs. I dont know why you would choose MMORPGs over family.
I do if they are reading this and agree with me.
Nope, sorry, still wrong. No matter if they agree or disagree with you, it's not your call to make.
I dont know why you would choose MMORPGs over family.
I don't know either, but that's not the point, and it will continue to not be the point regardless of what contrived stories you can fabricate.
I do if they are reading this and agree with me.
Nope, sorry, still wrong. No matter if they agree or disagree with you, it's not your call to make.I dont know why you would choose MMORPGs over family.
I don't know either, but that's not the point, and it will continue to not be the point regardless of what contrived stories you can fabricate.
Wait, so your argument is that he is not allowed to have/give an opinion on a message board about a topic someone brought to a message board to get opinions on? I do not recall him trying to go to their game and force them to hold their session on the previously agreed schedule, nor stop them from discussing it.
Wait, so your argument is that he is not allowed to have/give an opinion on a message board about a topic someone brought to a message board to get opinions on?
No, it's that whatever opinions he holds are, ultimately, only as relevant to a particular situation as those actually involved choose to make them. However much he may think an MMO is an inappropriate reason to change a game-day, that's, quite simply, not his call to make.
Wait, so your argument is that he is not allowed to have/give an opinion on a message board about a topic someone brought to a message board to get opinions on?
No, it's that whatever opinions he holds are, ultimately, only as relevant to a particular situation as those actually involved choose to make them. However much he may think an MMO is an inappropriate reason to change a game-day, that's, quite simply, not his call to make.
What is or is not appropriate is, of course, his call to make. What call they make, and what they do about it, is not. He has not stepped on anyones rights by blathering about what he thinks they should/should have done. Especially seeing as someone asked.
In other words, he can deem it inappropriate to him. And he can argue for its inappropriateness. However he may not inforce that argument in any way, the group may only do that for themselves.
Wait, so your argument is that he is not allowed to have/give an opinion on a message board about a topic someone brought to a message board to get opinions on?
No, it's that whatever opinions he holds are, ultimately, only as relevant to a particular situation as those actually involved choose to make them. However much he may think an MMO is an inappropriate reason to change a game-day, that's, quite simply, not his call to make.
So your agrument is that all arguments are invalid as we have no actual say in the outcome of the group in discussion? Interesting but an idea that can be applied so widely as to make it an invalid statement itself. The point of this discussion was not to enforce any thing on to anyone but to assess the situation and give our opinions. To argue that all of this is for not because of the lack of power we hold in the final decision makes little sense, as it makes your arguemnt invalid as soon as you make it.
You're quibbling words, and I'm not interested.
Not really, no. Your most recent line of argument is illogical and self contradictory. If he has no justification for deeming something inapropriate, you have no justification for deeming his actions inapropriate. Aside from his rude demeanor... or the factual innaccuracies... or, well, any direction that dosn't seem to be saying 'my opinion is that you have no right to voice your opinion'.
It's really quite simple.
He is in no position to be judgemental of another groups decision. He said, flat-out, that one thing was more important then another. He is not in the specified position (no one that we know of is, point-of-fact), so while he can give an opinion, he can not, as a matter of fact, say what is or is not good for that group.
This has nothing to do with my opinions on the matter, his neurosis about WoW, or anyone's fictional dying grandmother, and everything to do with scope of personal authority. The situation is not in your scope, you don't get to say what's good or bad there. You can give opinions, but you can not declare from on-high what is right or wrong, which he has done numerous times.
THAT is what I am saying. When we are talking about YOUR group, THEN you can say what is right or wrong for YOUR group. What you cannot do is say what is right or wrong for the group of anyone ELSE. Opinions? Yes. Advice? Sure. Saying what is right and wrong as if you are beyond reproach? Bullshit.
Saying what is right and wrong as if you are beyond reproach? Bullshit.
QFT.
Yay for people not understanding me.
It's really quite simple.
He is in no position to be judgemental of another groups decision. He said, flat-out, that one thing was more important then another. He is not in the specified position (no one that we know of is, point-of-fact), so while he can give an opinion, he can not, as a matter of fact, say what is or is not good for that group.
This has nothing to do with my opinions on the matter, his neurosis about WoW, or anyone's fictional dying grandmother, and everything to do with scope of personal authority. The situation is not in your scope, you don't get to say what's good or bad there. You can give opinions, but you can not declare from on-high what is right or wrong, which he has done numerous times.
THAT is what I am saying. When we are talking about YOUR group, THEN you can say what is right or wrong for YOUR group. What you cannot do is say what is right or wrong for the group of anyone ELSE. Opinions? Yes. Advice? Sure. Saying what is right and wrong as if you are beyond reproach? Bullshit.
Why even post on this thread? You are not adding to the discussion in anyway by telling us this. Because we already know that we can not make the decision for the group, that is obvious, but what we can do is give our opinions. and that is exactly what is being done, and I dont care if you dont agree with me. But if you do not agree with me please discuss the topic at hand, dont go on little rants about what you think about our opinions and the way we give them. Once you start to calm down a little bit and begin to post meaningful things I will continue to respond to you, until then have a good weekend.
Why even post on this thread?
My motives are irrelevant. But you seem to fail to grasp that motives can be irrelevant quite a bit, don't you?
You are not adding to the discussion in anyway by telling us this.
And you haven't added anything new to the discussion since your first got on your high-horse, yet you're still around. Maybe I thought you were being a bit lonely and decided to visit?
Because we already know that we can not make the decision for the group, that is obvious, but what we can do is give our opinions.
So you say, but your actions play a different tune.
But if you do not agree with me please discuss the topic at hand, dont go on little rants about what you think about our opinions and the way we give them. Once you start to calm down a little bit and begin to post meaningful things I will continue to respond to you, until then have a good weekend.
Been there, done that, got ignored. Not like you've actually been discussing anything anyway, as you prefer preeching and sniping to actually discussing points and giving reality a consideration.
In short: you're a preechy preacher that preaches a lot, ignores reality when it doesn't suit your world-view, hands down moral judgements from on-high, and so-on. There is no rational discussion going on here, and hasn't since your first post. You've been using this as a personal platform to espouse your ideas, blatantly disregarding everything that might question your judgement. This is not now, has not been, and (I have zero faith that it) will not be, a discussion.
But hey, if you'd rather continue talking about the evils of WoW and how it's stealing people away from their dying grandmothers, feel free. Just don't expect me to take you seriously. I mean, I did at one time, but you kinda gave me reason to give up on that.
1) Motives are not irrelevent, they give you deeper understanding of any situation, just because you believe otherwise does not make it so.
2)What high horse are you talking about? The only horse I see is the dead one that we are beating. In fact if any one has mounted a horse recently it is you, as you seem to have the power to declare an argument irrelevent because you think it is not a valild one despite being shown the validity that it holds.
3)I did not bring up dying grandmothers, some one else did and I just used their example for myself, it was used to show that some things hold more value than others, and while it is not a universal value, it is shared by enough people to make it a valid argument, and that argument if you have forgotten is that family > MMMORPG. And so to go back to #1, your motive does matter, in this case the motive for changing game has importance, especially to those who are being directly affected.
4) I never declared that my words were the ultimate and final truth on anything. What I have made clear though is that my words are my opinion. I have not made any moral judgements, unless you think "that players is a jerk, and needs to get a life" is a moral judgement.
5) I stated my opinion that a 4th night of WoW is not a valid reason for moving game night, and it was others that grabbed a hold of that statement and ran with it. They then declared WoW (along with any other activity) a valid excuse to reschedule game, and I argued against them holding my ground, it was not my intention to make this a WoW bashing thread but you all have made it very hard not to think ill of the game and how it may affect the lives of others.
Hope that clears things up a little bit for you, though I think that this thread is as dead as that horse you are riding, so none of this may even matter.
Who are you to say what's a good and bad reason for another group? I wouldn't presume to tell another group they're playing D&D wrong, so why should I presume they're scheduling their game wrong?
Lets put it this way then, it is relative. Dying grandma > MMORPG. Tell me that is not the truth. Family night > MMORPG, work > MMORPG, my hard earned free time > MMORPG. I'd like to hear your idea of an actual reason that is < MMORPG.
edit And I never said they were scheduling their game wrong, I didnt even get close to saying anything of the sort. I did point out though that the player in question had little right to ask them to reschedule their game. I dont care what they do one way or the other, that is their decision.
You obviously have a bias against anything to do with MMO's and are unable and incapable of debating on this topic without said bias. In other words, you're wrong. You shouldn't be posting in this thread. You should just shut up and go away. A weekly schedule raid night is definitely a reason to see if the rest of a D&D group can re-schedule. If not, then the player would have to make a decision and choose one. On a sidenote, I would have gladly played D&D or something else other than going to my grandmother's funeral.
From the studies I have read dealing with the issue of "virtual relationships," the friendships formed online can be just as strong and meaningful as those formed offline. That the person in question values the online relationships is not so surprising to me.
I don't particularly value online relationships myself, but they are a great outlet for a wide variety of people who find it difficult in the "real world" to form relationships for whatever reason. I'd rather game with people face-to-face, but for some the online version is as good or better.
How did this thread not just end here? lol
Seriously, though, I play DDO. Because I get to play DDO more often than pnp(pencil and paper, referring to pencil and paper DnD, as opposed to DDO, or DnD Online.), I tend to prioritize pnp above ddo. However, if my guild has a run planned, especially if we have a large chunk of hours planned out where a high number of guildies will be on and we can all actually play together, albeit in a number of groups, or a raid planned, so as many as 14 people have all set aside time for this group activity, DDO comes first. If the only day it can be done is the regular dnd night of one of my games, I will absolutely ask my dnd group if we can reschedule. And if they give me crap for wanting to reschedule because of an MMO, I will tell them straight up that these people are also my friends, and that since fully guild raids don't get to happen often for us, being there for it is as important to me as being there for a party with IRL friends I don't see often. So far, the couple of times it's happened, my friends get it, just like they get that if a friend comes into town who'se been out of town for a long time, I will straight up ditch dnd if I have to in order to hang out with them.
it's not that my DDO friends are more important, it's just that the obligation is more urgent, in the sense that if I'm not there, I will miss an event that I don't get to take part in often, with people I really like spending time with, whereas if I miss the dnd game, I'll see them next week, or more likely in a few days. I'd prefer to miss neither, of course, which is why I'd ask the group more likely to be able to reschedule to do so.
and I have no trouble making friends in real life. I just also don't have any trouble making friends online. Whether they're in person, or on the internet, if they're friends, they're friends. Period. and loyalty to my friends and family is the single most important point on my moral compass.
From my point of view this way of thinking is backwords. Using this logic you must never get out of the house. You let these 60 people that have nothing to do with you in real life control parts of your life, they may not even be able to point you out on the street, let alone tell you what city, state or even country that you live in. I would not say that they are friends, a few may actually be, but the others probably couldn't care less about you. And losing 1 of 60 raiders has little effect (no effect in my book, because I couldn't care less about yor digital life) than losing 1 of 5 in a D&D group. WoW is not going to miss you, they will replace you almost instantly and not think on it again. You are having a greater impact on the D&D group, especially if these people are your good friends. Now you are choosing to play a video game in your basement over spending time with real friends, this is not healthy for social beings like humans. There is a reason that the gamer stereotype is not a good one, and their social skills are one of the facets that give them such a bad name, and unfortunately it is often true. Human to human interaction trumps human to machine to avatar to avatar to machine to human interaction any and every day.
you ask me to change my schedule based around your video games and unless it is more convenient for me to change you are SOL. I have dealt with this before and I find it ridiculous to even ask. These people take their time to travel to the decided on meeting place, spend the gas to get there and dedicate this time to be there with other people, people that are their friends, people that they have actually seen. They have busy schedules, dealing with real life and the world around them, asking them to change because of some digital life that if ended will have no affect on your or anyone else's real life is well...how many times can I call it ridiculous? Real life issues- ok lets make this work, fake life issues - deal.
You are kind of a judgemental person, aren't you? You're also wrong, and clearly have zero understanding of how MMOs, or MMO players, work.
If someone is your friend, they are your friend. That's it. Whether you agree is irrelevant. If something is important to your friend, it should be important. If it matters to your friend, and you don't give to lumps about how he feels about it, you are being a d-bag, not your friend.
and are you really so out of it that you don't get that hanging out in game and joking around with your friends is just as valuable as hanging out on a couch or around a table joking with your friends?
What is the difference? That you can physically see them? Who cares? I've had people I know in "real life" stab me in the back, almost literally once, but luckily I was faster and saw it coming in time, who I thought were my friends. I've also had a guildy take a greyhound for 6 hours on a days notice because I had some crap going on that because of the specific circumstance I couldn't talk to my other friends about, and I needed someone to be there for me, in person, and help me blow off steam. Another guildy once saved a guildy's financial stability when the economy tanked and he got laid off at the worst possible time imaginable.
You simply don't know what you're talking about. At all.
EDIT: Ok, I'm sorry, i went slightly overboard there, although I still think the quoted post is way out of line, and very, very off base. I think I was partly responding to a reaction to all the times I've heard similar arguments, often in an even more negative tone.
And I fckng hate the generalizations about "nerds'" social lives, because none of my friends fit them, at all. We all play video games, role playing games, various board games like risk or things like it, munchkin, etc, and love the Big Three (star wars, star trek and lord of the rings). And yet, we have parties, each of us has many friends outside our direct group, I'm one of the very few members who are currently single, and I think only one of us was ever the awkward kid, and he got over it before he got out of highschool. Hell, I got a few jocks into gaming and star wars and such in high school, because we were friends and they were curious about the references they weren't getting.
Maybe it's because I'm younger. I don't know. It's like the whole "mom's basement" thing. I mean, does anyone here know anyone who fit that stereotype?
The one time we ever played in a friend's mom's basement, we were constantly cracking about the absurdity of it. The only reason it happened was that my friend's parent owned two houses, and he had moved back in with his parents a while back to save money while he went to school again for a new line of work, and then his parents decided that they were going to give him the house, so he didn't bother looking for a new place.
and yet, we felt rediculous, because we all assumed that only characters in movies/on tv actually play dnd in their mom's basement.
anyway, the fact is, playing MMOs, and making friends in that MMO, whether you also have RL friends on that list of MMO friends or not, does not mean that you have your priorities screwed up, or that you have no life, or any of that. My social life is quite active, thanks, as are the social lives of all but one friend I have who plays MMOs. And even his isn't bad, it just consists primarily of the very occassional party, his weekly dnd game at the hobby shop near his house, and that weird psuedo social life that takes place in a work enviroment.
You're a natural mediator and diplomat, ya know that?
I know. I try so hard too. :-p
I've learned there's a right time and place to be civil. Then there are times where you must be the hammer.
Two things.
First, this is now a quote for one of my characters, so thanks for that. Dwarven Bards win. Always. :P
Second, have you seen Doctor Horrible's Sing Along Blog?
if not, go go go, and then come back and read the hammer bit again.
Epic win, my friend. Epic win.
someone posted a pic after you made that post.
just so funny.
@thread: Of course "real life" takes precedence over "game life". "game life" includes dnd.
That said, asking to reschedule "real life" for another aspect of "real life" is acceptable, as is asking to reschedule part of your "game life" for another part of your "game life."*
The relevant factors in the two later cases have nothing to do with what is being played. "I really feel that I need tuesdays to sit around the house and not deal with people in any way" is valid. "I also have this other gaming group, and there's much more of them with more diverse schedules than us, so it be a huge boon to me if we could reschedule our game night so I can do both." Is also valid. What game is being played, or what kind of game it is, is completely irrelevant.
*quotations exist to be annoying, and entertain me. That is all.
A couple years ago, I had three dnd games a month(I say a month because one was twice a month, and one was unpredictable, because we'd just as often choose to drink instead, while the last one was once a week) a weekly star wars game, a full time job and a few college night classes. I also had a girlfriend, who luckily played dice games, so she didn't get too pissy if I could only see her a few times a week sometimes, and was playing DDO. Luckily, DDO didn't interfere with other stuff because I'd been playing for so long after midnight that that was when nearly all my DDO friends were on.
It got crazy, and I got to where I just didn't have any time to myself unless I was doing course work, or riding the bus to and from school, which doesn't really count since you can't relax in the same way in public as you can alone.
I couldn't keep it up. So, I looked at each thing I had going on, crossed work and school off the list, since changing them wasn't really an option.(monday-friday work schedule with the occasional saturday, couldn't afford to work fewer days, which I would have if it was an option. I'd rather work four-five days than five-six days if money allowed) girlfriend was in the star wars game, and the unscheduled dnd game, and we had lunch at least a couple times a week between me getting off work at 3 and leaving for school, plus the nights she stayed over and stuff like that, so theoretically I could have further limited my time with her, but I was 23, which is probably all that needs to be said.
So, one of the dice game nights had to be the thing to change. One of them took place on sundays, in the early afternoon, allowing for hangovers and those who attended church. Not being a church-goer or terribly prone to bad hangovers, the day was otherwise wide open for me, and there were other days where I had time, including saturday afternoon. No big deal to be around people for a few hours more each saturday. I asked the group, and when they asked why, they couldn't believe my answer.
"I just need a day where I don't have to interact with anyone, in any way. I literally need a day where I only have to leave my room to use the bathroom and make food, and can just sit in bed and read a book, or whatever."
Some of them were insulted, or thought I was making lame excuses. Eventually I was able to explain it to them, but one of them just couldn't accept it, and was miffed when the group decided to play on saturday instead. It would mean that I'd miss a session once in a while for those weird saturday work days, but at least no one would have to completely leave that game, so the group decided, as a whole, that it was a better option.
My friend that was miffed, was in the wrong. Period. Why? because it was very important to me that I have that day for that activity. If saturday didn't work for him, that would have been fine. But being an ass about it because he didn't understand why it was important to me was selfish.
Oddly enough he was completely understanding when I didn't make a couple games because my insomnia got bad and I hadn't slept at all the night before, so I was going to use whiskey as a sleeping pill.
Luckily, when he relayed that information to the rest of the group, the came over and stopped me from doing something incredibly stupid in my delious state. (i didn't tell them that I actually hadn't slept in almost three days. didn't want them to worry. :D)
That was an interesting day.
anyway, more random responses! yay!
right. whether or not talking to someone online is on the same level, or as satisfying, as talking to someone in person is entirely a matter of personal taste, preference, and perhaps simply what you are used to. The only time, when I just need someone to talk to, that the phone or voice chat won't do it, is if it's a girl I'm hoping to hook up with, a girl I'm already with, or I'm so immediately upset that I may in fact need to be restrained at some point. In the last case, I have friends that I only get to talk to on the phone or online who I'd rather have there than most of the friends who live in my town. Some of them have moved from here, and some I've been phone/internet friends with for damn near 10 years. Longer than all but 4 of my in person friends.
They are my friends. Anyone who doesn't think that friends online can be on the same level as in person friends simply doesn't know what they're talking about.
Never once did I say that D&D was real life. What I said is that we schedule our gaming day around our real life issues such as family, friends and work. To change that game day we would have to work around these issues, but to work around someone's other activities that conflict with everyone else's schedule is not something that we consider.
This, I think, is crucial to the entire debate.
Not just the OP, but everything everyone has been on about in this thread.
Fact: Members of a WoW player's guild also schedule their playing time (raid time especially) around their real life issues such as family, friends and work. Those considerations are taken into account when setting up raid days, or in the case of a guild who I recently made a new character to run with on monday nights in ddo, there is a static group, that always plays together. The same six people, leveling a single toon each, together.
In this case, it's a perma death guild, and thus a perma death group, which means that if your character dies, and can't be rezed inside the quest (ddo being all instanced questing), that character get's deleted.(some are death at all, unless the party has a cleric that can ressurect, some are less strict.) It's an intense playstyle, and it requires a great deal of care, skill, and cooperation. And if I don't show, the DM can't temp npc my character in a pinch, or bring in a dmpc who can pick locks and disable traps for the group, or anything like that. They either have to play other toons, or try to do quests without the trapmonkey/one of the highest dps toons in the group, which will increase the chances of someone dying, and having to make a new character, which if you've ever played an MMO, takes much longer than replacing a dnd character. You can't just make a new 6 level character in an MMO.
One of the people in group has four kids, none of whom are over 13, and a full time job. This is the only night he can count on getting to play DDO at all, and he had to compromise with his wife for that. Another is in college, and has one night that she isn't either working or in class/doing coursework. The rest of her dnd time is intermittent and sporadic.
Two others are in person friends who live near eachother, only one of which has internet at his house. The other guy has to ride his bike over there on a night that's good for both of them just to be able to use the internet. This works since we all can play on the same night, and DDO is free to play now, so the poor kids can still partake, but my dad, who has an almost 80 hour a week work schedule has a more malleable schedule than this group.
If my old monday night dnd group reforms, I will absolutely ask them if we can reschedule, because it would be easier for them to change their schedule than my ddo friends to change theirs. if it were the other way around, I would ask the ddo players to change their night.
Because both groups include very close friends that I would do damn near anything for, and would do the same for me, aquaintences that are more friends of friends, really, and an activity I rather enjoy. The two groups are of roughly equal importance, and both groups have real world concerns involved in when they can schedule in game nights.
heh, what's really fun for me is that the other dps guy, who is also a secondary tank (dwarf twf ranger with dwarven axes and a few levels of fighter is a very powerful dps tank build in ddo) is 57 years old, and has one of his grandkids as a guildmate. He's actually one of the top officers in the guild. Apperently he's been doing stuff with computers since they still took up whole walls, and by some miracle has managed to not fall behind in his knowledge. It's pretty awesome. Onery old bastard too. Always slipping in quippy little remarks when you least expect it, making me nose-spew dew on my damn screen. :D
any DDO players who are curious:
the line up:
Me, halfling-rogue5, fighter1, dps focused duel wielding build with trap skills that are good enough as long as I remember to use my clickies
above mentioned old guy with his awesome dwarf ranger of whirling death which cannot die.
the cleric, drow cleric, balanced between healing and fighting, but slightly leaning toward heals.
the bard, drow twf warchanter-ish bard. decent combat abillity, fair emergency heals and wand support, awesome buffs and crowd control. the player is amazing at micromanaging everything, so she really makes the team great. we regularly donate to her wand/scroll fund.
human paladin. straight up sword and board tank pally. pretty straight forward intimidation/you can't kill me tank. first two feats were both toughness. he rarely get's under three quarter health, between his defenses, and the heals being managed by other team members.
warforged wizard. heals himself with repair spells, good crowd controller, great blaster, good buffer, harder to kill than most wizards.
it's a solid group, and if it weren't permadeath, one person not making it wouldn't be much of an issue.
I dont care about your MMO or how you say it works, if you are raiding with them then it is obvious that you are playing at the same time, so I dont see how timezone or country has anything to do with it, they are on, you are on. See if they can do it the same time the next day if you have other commitments.
That is not the issue that we are discussing. It may be the issue that people have decided to focus on for some reason or another. It may be related to the original thread topic but fails to touch on the subject.
To state that you can't do something, especailly something you have commited yourself too, beause you 'have' to raid (like some magic force is compelling you) even though you do this four days a week already is less then reasonable. That is the issue, not how your stupid MMO works, because you could very well get online and start to find others to raid with if you wanted to setup raiding at a different time then your standard raids.
Uh-huh. Well, I see that despite my best efforts you still don't understand. Ok, that's not totally fair. I believe it's more of your bias causing you to ignore any argument presented that doesn't consider MMOs 'stupid'. So I'm done wasting my time.
Uh-huh. Well, I see that despite my best efforts you still don't understand. Ok, that's not totally fair. I believe it's more of your bias causing you to ignore any argument presented that doesn't consider MMOs 'stupid'. So I'm done wasting my time.
Good, stop wasting your time and mine. Like I have said, some how this thread turned into everyone trying to defend their MMORPG, I say a couple bads things about them and you get your panties in a bunch. I am stating my opinion and that is all it is, who cares if I dont like MMORPGs? If you like them disregard what I have to say on that subject.
But as far as the actual topic of the forum. If I am choosing to do something 4 times a week and that conflicts with my game group then I should deal with it myself. To expect the group to change from the day they have chosen as the best day for the group because you want to do somethin else does not work for me. They would like to play during the week, tuesday I believe is the day they have chosen, but this player has chosen to have other 'obligations' mon-thurs, this conflicts with the REST OF THE GROUP's schedules. So make a choice, D&D or your other activity. It is as simple as that.
And on the issue of online friends. Sure they may be your friends, but should you ignore your other friends? Probably not.
Uh-huh. Well, I see that despite my best efforts you still don't understand. Ok, that's not totally fair. I believe it's more of your bias causing you to ignore any argument presented that doesn't consider MMOs 'stupid'. So I'm done wasting my time.
Good, stop wasting your time and mine. Like I have said, some how this thread turned into everyone trying to defend their MMORPG, I say a couple bads things about them and you get your panties in a bunch. I am stating my opinion and that is all it is, who cares if I dont like MMORPGs? If you like them disregard what I have to say on that subject.
But as far as the actual topic of the forum. If I am choosing to do something 4 times a week and that conflicts with my game group then I should deal with it myself. To expect the group to change from the day they have chosen as the best day for the group because you want to do somethin else does not work for me. They would like to play during the week, tuesday I believe is the day they have chosen, but this player has chosen to have other 'obligations' mon-thurs, this conflicts with the REST OF THE GROUP's schedules. So make a choice, D&D or your other activity. It is as simple as that.
And on the issue of online friends. Sure they may be your friends, but should you ignore your other friends? Probably not.
Good, stop wasting your time and mine. Like I have said, some how this thread turned into everyone trying to defend their MMORPG, I say a couple bads things about them and you get your panties in a bunch. I am stating my opinion and that is all it is, who cares if I dont like MMORPGs? If you like them disregard what I have to say on that subject.
You know what's even more stupid? That you are assuming that anyone counter to you plays an MMO.
It's also stupid that all you can think of is to insult everyone that has a point that is different than your own.
It's also incredibly stupid to be saying that everyone's getting their "panties in a twist" (by the way you might want to check the gender of various posters. Cause pretty much everyone that's opposed your overly biased hypocritical viewpoint isn't wearing panties).
You know what's even more stupid? That you are assuming that anyone counter to you plays an MMO.
It's also stupid that all you can think of is to insult everyone that has a point that is different than your own.
It's also incredibly stupid to be saying that everyone's getting their "panties in a twist" (by the way you might want to check the gender of various posters. Cause pretty much everyone that's opposed your overly biased hypocritical viewpoint isn't wearing panties).
Weither you play them or not doesn't matter, the fact is that you are still defending them, making that the primary topic of the thread when my opinion against them was a secondary item in my arguments.
And who says a guy can't wear panties?
Weither you play them or not doesn't matter, the fact is that you are still defending them, making that the primary topic of the thread when my opinion against them was a secondary item in my arguments.
And who says a guy can't wear panties?
No, it hasn't been a secondary topic. Infact time and time again you've been quite willing to insult people that play them, and people that support people that play them. You've even gone out of your way to do so. So no, it's not a secondary item.
Weither you play them or not doesn't matter, the fact is that you are still defending them, making that the primary topic of the thread when my opinion against them was a secondary item in my arguments.
And who says a guy can't wear panties?
No, it hasn't been a secondary topic. Infact time and time again you've been quite willing to insult people that play them, and people that support people that play them. You've even gone out of your way to do so. So no, it's not a secondary item.
Per standard on these forums, people have pulled out and focused on things that I have said in support of my argument, ignoring the main argument and rallying against this secondary item. I have then held my ground and defended my words. But even when I have tried to steer the thread back on topic, people have ignored the main agrument and continued with with this one as you have so deftly done. Not 3 posts ago I had tried to do this... with no success.
Good, stop wasting your time and mine. Like I have said, some how this thread turned into everyone trying to defend their MMORPG, I say a couple bads things about them and you get your panties in a bunch. I am stating my opinion and that is all it is, who cares if I dont like MMORPGs? If you like them disregard what I have to say on that subject.
I don't play any MMOs. So who's got somethin' in a bunch? ;)
Your opinion doesn't mean anything until you allow it to influence the way you read opposing viewpoints. That is something you've demonstrated and it is part of the reason the discussion has evolved as it has. A discussion requires an exchange of viewpoints - this is utterly impossible when one of the participants has erected barriers (intentionally or not) of bias to shut the other side out.
Good, stop wasting your time and mine. Like I have said, some how this thread turned into everyone trying to defend their MMORPG, I say a couple bads things about them and you get your panties in a bunch. I am stating my opinion and that is all it is, who cares if I dont like MMORPGs? If you like them disregard what I have to say on that subject.
But as far as the actual topic of the forum. If I am choosing to do something 4 times a week and that conflicts with my game group then I should deal with it myself. To expect the group to change from the day they have chosen as the best day for the group because you want to do somethin else does not work for me. They would like to play during the week, tuesday I believe is the day they have chosen, but this player has chosen to have other 'obligations' mon-thurs, this conflicts with the REST OF THE GROUP's schedules. So make a choice, D&D or your other activity. It is as simple as that.
And on the issue of online friends. Sure they may be your friends, but should you ignore your other friends? Probably not.
With this you illustrate that not only are you not remotely interested in anything resembling a discussion (a curious position for one on a discussion forum) but that you have also completely failed - either through blind incomprehension of willful ignorance - to understand not just the substance of others' arguments but rather the simple intent of them. You do not simply disagree with people's arguments you do not even understand - or refuse to acknowledge - what they are arguing making further discussion on this topic pointless.
Good luck with your situation. Based on what you have posted here you are going to need it.
Good, stop wasting your time and mine. Like I have said, some how this thread turned into everyone trying to defend their MMORPG, I say a couple bads things about them and you get your panties in a bunch. I am stating my opinion and that is all it is, who cares if I dont like MMORPGs? If you like them disregard what I have to say on that subject.
I don't play any MMOs. So who's got somethin' in a bunch? ;)
Your opinion doesn't mean anything until you allow it to influence the way you read opposing viewpoints. That is something you've demonstrated and it is part of the reason the discussion has evolved as it has. A discussion requires an exchange of viewpoints - this is utterly impossible when one of the participants has erected barriers (intentionally or not) of bias to shut the other side out.
I have no problem with MMORPGs, I do have problems with players who can not pull themselves away from them to spend time with friends. If you have agreed to hangout with your friends but then ditch them to play something that you play 4 nights a week anyway then you have lost something. Something that may not be important to you, but may be important to your other friends, that something is Respect. And with that you have lost any influence you may have had and should not expect anything from these friends.
And on a side not, my panties are just fine.
[I have no problem with MMORPGs, I do have problems with players who can not pull themselves away from them to spend time with friends. If you have agreed to hangout with your friends but then ditch them to play something that you play 4 nights a week anyway then you have lost something. Something that may not be important to you, but may be important to your other friends, that something is Respect. And with that you have lost any influence you may have had and should not expect anything from these friends.
And on a side not, my panties are just fine.
Well, you've certainly painted a different picture of your opinion of MMOs. One more thing to keep in mind: a game is just a game whether that game is D&D or WoW.
To try and get this thing back on some sort of track that isn't doin' 120 toward a brick wall, I'll say this. I think I said something like this earlier, but whatever. The kid can ask that the group reschedule to accomodate his raiding. That's perfectly within the realm of the okey-dokey. Said kid cannot, however, expect them to actually change the game day to accomodate him. That's firmly out of the realm of the okey-dokey. If they say no, it's on the kid to decide which activity he'd rather participate in. It's really as simple as that.
Good, stop wasting your time and mine. Like I have said, some how this thread turned into everyone trying to defend their MMORPG, I say a couple bads things about them and you get your panties in a bunch. I am stating my opinion and that is all it is, who cares if I dont like MMORPGs? If you like them disregard what I have to say on that subject.
But as far as the actual topic of the forum. If I am choosing to do something 4 times a week and that conflicts with my game group then I should deal with it myself. To expect the group to change from the day they have chosen as the best day for the group because you want to do somethin else does not work for me. They would like to play during the week, tuesday I believe is the day they have chosen, but this player has chosen to have other 'obligations' mon-thurs, this conflicts with the REST OF THE GROUP's schedules. So make a choice, D&D or your other activity. It is as simple as that.
And on the issue of online friends. Sure they may be your friends, but should you ignore your other friends? Probably not.
With this you illustrate that not only are you not remotely interested in anything resembling a discussion (a curious position for one on a discussion forum) but that you have also completely failed - either through blind incomprehension of willful ignorance - to understand not just the substance of others' arguments but rather the simple intent of them. You do not simply disagree with people's arguments you do not even understand - or refuse to acknowledge - what they are arguing making further discussion on this topic pointless.
Good luck with your situation. Based on what you have posted here you are going to need it.
The pot calls the kettle black. I think that the post that I have added (shown above) is a perfectly reasonable post, and even conceeds the point people have made about onlie friends.
[I have no problem with MMORPGs, I do have problems with players who can not pull themselves away from them to spend time with friends. If you have agreed to hangout with your friends but then ditch them to play something that you play 4 nights a week anyway then you have lost something. Something that may not be important to you, but may be important to your other friends, that something is Respect. And with that you have lost any influence you may have had and should not expect anything from these friends.
And on a side not, my panties are just fine.
Well, you've certainly painted a different picture of your opinion of MMOs. One more thing to keep in mind: a game is just a game whether that game is D&D or WoW.
To try and get this thing back on some sort of track that isn't doin' 120 toward a brick wall, I'll say this. I think I said something like this earlier, but whatever. The kid can ask that the group reschedule to accomodate his raiding. That's perfectly within the realm of the okey-dokey. Said kid cannot, however, expect them to actually change the game day to accomodate him. That's firmly out of the realm of the okey-dokey. If they say no, it's on the kid to decide which activity he'd rather participate in. It's really as simple as that.
This has been my point, though if I was that player I would not even ask, as I wouldn't want to have them rearrange their schedules for me like that. Asking, in a way, is expecting them to make that change. I would make the decision myself and tell them that I can or can not make game and go from there. If they think it is appropriate they will offer up the change if not then they will stay put and hopefully extend the offer to rejoin if things change.
This has been my point, though if I was that player I would not even ask, as I wouldn't want to have them rearrange their schedules for me like that. Asking, in a way, is expecting them to make that change. I would make the decision myself and tell them that I can or can not make game and go from there. If they think it is appropriate they will offer up the change if not then they will stay put and hopefully extend the offer to rejoin if things change.
I don't think asking is expecting. Hoping, maybe, but not necessarily expecting. I guess it could be, but I'd rather not look at my friends like that. Benefit of the doubt an' all that. Personally, I wouldn't ask. That's not how I roll. I was actually late for D&D Sunday and - since I forgot to take my phone with me when I was out doin' what made me late - I wasn't able to call until right about when I was supposed to show up. I called and told my DM that I was going to be up to 2 hrs late (though with our most recent start times, it was closer to 1 hr) and that was that. They waited, but I certainly didn't expect them to. But were a friend to call and ask if we could wait until they showed up, I'd be happy to do it. That's just how I, personally, see it.
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