We've switched over to LED and Florescent lights, and to new Low-Wattage appliances. Over the last year, we've cut our power usage in HALF. Without any prohibitive cost, and without any special connections or unusual work going into it.
We're building a new house, and we're incorporating a Wind Turbine and Photovoltaic Solar Cells into the design. Projections tell us that on an average day, we'll produce 60 Killowatt hours of energy. Since we currently only use 35 Killowatt hours a day during the coldest part of winter, you can see we won't be using much electricity. Infact, many days, we will be flowing clean energy INTO the powergrid, and getting credit from KCPL.
Combined with Storage batteries, we'll be running all clean energy, with only our own matenance cost, and making the world a better place.
So, What are you doing to make the world better? Saving .17 kWh by turning off you computer and lights for an hour? Oh yeah, you're saving the planet man.
Yep, that small nugget of coal that they won't burn to power your lights for an hour, that's gonna make the difference.
Oh, wait, they'll burn it anyway, because power is generated on a projection of demand, so basically, what you're doing is making sure that the air is polluted by buring Coal and Oil to generate power noone will use, thus WASTING it. Kind of the same thing, really, as if you left all your light, the TV, and Computer on while you went out to dinner.
Good job!
So I'm the good guy?
At the very least, you're not a hypocrite. Which makes you a good guy in my book.
Oh, wait, they'll burn it anyway, because power is generated on a projection of demand, so basically, what you're doing is making sure that the air is polluted by buring Coal and Oil to generate power noone will use, thus WASTING it. Kind of the same thing, really, as if you left all your light, the TV, and Computer on while you went out to dinner.
This is the reason earth hour is moronic.
I've been switching my lights and making sure they get cut off... and making sure I don't overuse my heating/cooling... That is really the biggest thing really, get efficient heating and cooling and keep it set at efficient levels.
We've switched over to LED and Florescent lights, and to new Low-Wattage appliances. Over the last year, we've cut our power usage in HALF. Without any prohibitive cost, and without any special connections or unusual work going into it.
See, we're doing this, too, but not to "go green". We're doing it to save money on power bills and such. I don't even run lights until about 7 at night (sunset is already getting pretty late here in GA), and I only run the air sometimes - I usually just open the house up.
You want to make a difference? Lobby congress to step on the necks of big business and show them they don't call the shots anymore. Not going to happen, but that's what needs to happen.
All your efforts are futile.
Depends on what you are going for. My goal is just a cheap electric bill. I like the environment as much as the next guy, but I know exactly how minuscule the amount of power I use is in context.
You all do realize that the only constant thing about climate is not being constant? C'mon, how long have people been polluting the Earth, how do we now the climate now is the right one?
It doesn't really matter much anymore. Now that the permafrost in Alaska is thawing, millenia of decaying mosses and lichens are releasing enough methane into the atmosphere that we'll never be able to do anything other than ride out the shift in climate. Whether man tripped over that first domino is irrelevant now, mother nature has taken up the cause and it looks like she's gonna go ahead and drive up the price of dry land and sunscreen.
Depends on what you are going for. My goal is just a cheap electric bill. I like the environment as much as the next guy, but I know exactly how minuscule the amount of power I use is in context.
Ah, that's a very good point. I also endeavor to drop my electric bill, I just don't think it'll have an effect on anything but my pocket.
All your efforts are futile. Big manufacturing will not abide by your restrictions, they're the ones destroying everything.
You want to make a difference? Lobby congress to step on the necks of big business and show them they don't call the shots anymore. Not going to happen, but that's what needs to happen.
See, here's the thing. I'm a libertarian, and probably always will be. I'm also a probable future small business owner (my wife and I will more than likely be running her family business, I hope to start a fishing charter service on the side). If you provide me with a "green" source of energy that saves me money, I'll switch. Businesses are the same way. The reason they don't switch is money. You people who want to save the planet are going about it all wrong. I understand your reasons - I don't necessarily agree with them, but I understand.
I like to hunt and fish as hobbies. That's a natural thing here in the south. Hunters are the most efficient conservationists anywhere, because we want our children to be able to grow up and hunt with us and enjoy the land. But the reason a vast, vast number of hunters keep going out every morning is money. A couple cents could feed you and your family and maybe your friend's family depending on the size of deer you bag for a solid month easily.
If you appeal to people's wallets, they'll do the things you want. I hear these heartfelt entreaties on the radio on how we're destroying the planet, and all I can think is, "You're doing it wrong". Seriously, a change of tactics to an economics-based model will get you what you're looking for (more people going green) and we, the money-grubbing Libertarians of the world will get what we want (less cost for business and bills).
/rant
Everyone who reads this, turn off all electronics in your house, and lights, Half an hour after this is posted, and keep them off for an hour. Save the earth, participate in Earth Hour!
You know that there is no way to store up electrical energy? The only way it would actually work is if energy was not produced for an hour rather than not being used. If it is not being used, it is still being produced which means that turning off the lights did nothing but to make your electricity bills a bit lower for the month. Turning off the light will not save the environment. Not producing that electricity that allows for the light to turn on will save the environment.
If you appeal to people's wallets, they'll do the things you want. I hear these heartfelt entreaties on the radio on how we're destroying the planet, and all I can think is, "You're doing it wrong". Seriously, a change of tactics to an economics-based model will get you what you're looking for (more people going green) and we, the money-grubbing Libertarians of the world will get what we want (less cost for business and bills).
/rant
Yeah, libertarianism doesn't work. If you don't control people in charge of big businesses, there is literally nothing you can do when they decide to screw everyone.
Having less regulation will only make it worse. And the problem with changing things so it costs less to not pollute? You can't get anything like that through because business leaders will fight tooth and nail to stop it.
Free Market theory is bull, has been proven that it doesn't work, and yet people still cling to it. Somalia and Sudan have the most free markets in the world, you think it helps them in the slightest? No it doesn't the inevitable end product of a free market is anarchy and economic collapse while the people on the top steal everything in big santa sacks and run off with it.
Yeah, libertarianism doesn't work. If you don't control people in charge of big businesses, there is literally nothing you can do when they decide to screw everyone.
Having less regulation will only make it worse. And the problem with changing things so it costs less to not pollute? You can't get anything like that through because business leaders will fight tooth and nail to stop it.
Free Market theory is bull, has been proven that it doesn't work, and yet people still cling to it. Somalia and Sudan have the most free markets in the world, you think it helps them in the slightest? No it doesn't the inevitable end product of a free market is anarchy and economic collapse while the people on the top steal everything in big santa sacks and run off with it.
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
BWAHAHAHA!!!!
Oh no, the businessmen are going to screw everyone over!!!
HAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!
Stop it, you're making my sides hurt.
If the businessmen "screw everyone over" and don't violate any rights in doing so, they should be in the clear. And thinking Somalia and Sudan have free markets is absurd. They have corrupt markets controlled by warlords that are free in name only. Good job at picking awful examples. I suppose you also think Liberia also has a free market economy.
And all that's needed to make green sources of energy cheaper is to develop them that way. That's the way things work. You don't toss tons of tax money at development, you let development happen on its own, over time, in the private sector. You don't have to change anything at the government level to get it done.
It's all that simple.
Heard a lot of folks say they were going to turn on all the lights they got in the house for Earth Hour. I understand not participating, but why be a total ass about it?
Because we're sick of having this stuff shoved down our throats and flung in our faces every time we turn around. That it's based on lies and panic only makes it that much more distasteful. Even the folks sitting by the alarm bells have said "This isn't about the environment. It's about politics."
My birthday is in about a month. I plan on having a green birthday. The bar I'm going to, the cars my friends ride in, etc will all leave no carbon footprint. I already sent the check to one of Al Gore's pals' companies to buy the green credits.
Make sure that your bar has lots of potted plants so that when you have an involuntary protein spill* you can fertilize the plants with it.
*Also known as a technicolor yawn, heaving, hurling, spewing, blowing chunks, and numerous other euphemisms. I'm not entirely certain how that counts towards carbon footprint....
Make sure that your bar has lots of potted plants so that when you have an involuntary protein spill* you can fertilize the plants with it.
*Also known as a technicolor yawn, heaving, hurling, spewing, blowing chunks, and numerous other euphemisms. I'm not entirely certain how that counts towards carbon footprint....
I'll just pay for a few extra credits. It's all good. I could burn down a refinery and make it 100% green if I pay for enough credits. Al Gore is a douche. No carbon footprint if you got the cash, but let's not explain that to the people that buy into "green" events.
If the businessmen "screw everyone over" and don't violate any rights in doing so, they should be in the clear. And thinking Somalia and Sudan have free markets is absurd. They have corrupt markets controlled by warlords that are free in name only. Good job at picking awful examples. I suppose you also think Liberia also has a free market economy.
You do realize that you don't have to buy, right? No one is holding a gun to your head demanding that you buy that new-fangled gadget that replaces the one you bought six months ago that still works just fine.
If the local grocery's price for meat is too high, I can hunt* to decrease the cost of my food. If their vegetables cost too much, the topsoil in my yard is the same topsoil that the local farmers use. Warm clothing reduces the amount of natural gas I have to burn to keep my place heated. The shade created by the wall of plants growing in my living room reduces the amount of electricity I need to keep this place cooled in the summer. If the water company demands too much money, I can distill fresh clean water from the river using nothing but sunlight to power it. If you want to avoid being a victim of the robber barons, learn to be self-sufficient.
Ours has become a society that relies more on buying and selling than on producing. If you break that cycle and produce more of what you need, you can reduce the impact that the merchants have over your life and your income.
*There's a tourist trap not far from my place that even pays well for the pelts that would go to waste otherwise. Between the rabbit pelts I get from the traps in my garden and the deer pelts during the fall, I make a pretty penny for just a little more work.
*Places hand to head*
Gimme monies naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaao!
You do realize that you don't have to buy, right? No one is holding a gun to your head demanding that you buy that new-fangled gadget that replaces the one you bought six months ago that still works just fine.
This has nothing to do with what I said, or any views I have voiced.
I'll just pay for a few extra credits. It's all good. I could burn down a refinery and make it 100% green if I pay for enough credits. Al Gore is a douche. No carbon footprint if you got the cash, but let's not explain that to the people that buy into "green" events.
I never understood the point of buying green credits. In most cases, isn't it cheaper to just retool to be green than to buy the credits from the companies and people that have made the switch?
Take potting soil for an example. My neighbor has potted plants all over her house. The money she pays to buy potting soil and fertilizer is astronomical compared to the amount of work I put into turning the compost heap in my yard. It only takes me a couple hours a month to make ten to twelve times the amount of topsoil that my neighbor buys. And my topsoil is thicker, richer and far more fertile* than the stuff she buys.
Maybe I'm just a cheap bastard, but doesn't it make more sense to do for yourself rather than buy?
*I live in Iowa. I looked at the history of this place and came to the realization that this continent was unfinished when the original settlers arrived. The bison that roamed across these rolling plains were a tool of nature, making this place more fertile than any other place on earth. I don't spread tons of dung behind me or churn the soil like those herds once did, so I have to go about it differently. When I clean out my refrigerator, my garden grows that much more lush. Junk mail, spoiled food, grass clippings, leaf litter in the fall and pretty much anything that was a plant or an animal at some point goes in and becomes fuel for growth later.
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
BWAHAHAHA!!!!
Oh no, the businessmen are going to screw everyone over!!!
HAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!
Stop it, you're making my sides hurt.
I'm very depressed that anyone can be that ignorant of what's going on in the world that they think they can laugh at it.
And there will be no environmentally superior products produced unless people are forced to make them. The people in charge make too much money from the way things are now, they won't change until they burn through all the resources and have to. That's how capitalism works, you make all the money you can with your resources, and when your resources are gone, you put your capital into the next thing. Every atom of natural resource left in the world is just profit yet to be made in the eyes of business leaders.
Things are collapsing NOW because a few rich CEOs decided that they need multi-million dollar bonuses and aalasries rather than making sure their company was fiscally solid. The average CEO is only on the job for about 2-5 years, most of them won't even be around when the company fails, they'll be millionaires.
And you laugh at me.
I pity your ignorance.
I never understood the point of buying green credits. In most cases, isn't it cheaper to just retool to be green than to buy the credits from the companies and people that have made the switch?
Take potting soil for an example. My neighbor has potted plants all over her house. The money she pays to buy potting soil and fertilizer is astronomical compared to the amount of work I put into turning the compost heap in my yard. It only takes me a couple hours a month to make ten to twelve times the amount of topsoil that my neighbor buys. And my topsoil is thicker, richer and far more fertile* than the stuff she buys.
Maybe I'm just a cheap bastard, but doesn't it make more sense to do for yourself rather than buy?
*I live in Iowa. I looked at the history of this place and came to the realization that this continent was unfinished when the original settlers arrived. The bison that roamed across these rolling plains were a tool of nature, making this place more fertile than any other place on earth. I don't spread tons of dung behind me or churn the soil like those herds once did, so I have to go about it differently. When I clean out my refrigerator, my garden grows that much more lush. Junk mail, spoiled food, grass clippings, leaf litter in the fall and pretty much anything that was a plant or an animal at some point goes in and becomes fuel for growth later.
If you don't use the compost pile as a toilet you're not doing your best. :D
I'm very depressed that anyone can be that ignorant of what's going on in the world that they think they can laugh at it.
And there will be no environmentally superior products produced unless people are forced to make them. The people in charge make too much money from the way things are now, they won't change until they burn through all the resources and have to. That's how capitalism works, you make all the money you can with your resources, and when your resources are gone, you put your capital into the next thing. Every atom of natural resource left in the world is just profit yet to be made in the eyes of business leaders.
Things are collapsing NOW because a few rich CEOs decided that they need multi-million dollar bonuses and aalasries rather than making sure their company was fiscally solid. The average CEO is only on the job for about 2-5 years, most of them won't even be around when the company fails, they'll be millionaires.
And you laugh at me.
I pity your ignorance.
*Yawns* *Throws the nazi salute while doing so*
Hmm? Oh, yeah, this. Fail. Go piddle your poor man's Marxism somewhere else.
In the meantime I'm going to spend an hour today eating as many small animals as I can get a hold of while listening to the Ninth Symphony on full volume in a brightly lit climate controlled room.
If you don't use the compost pile as a toilet you're not doing your best. :D
Human waste isn't very good as fertilizer. We digest too much of what we eat, our waste isn't as nutrient-rich as say an elephant or a horse's dung. Not to mention that it's illegal* to dump human waste inside the city limits.
*I think that may have something to do with the fact that the sewer department sells fertilizer byproducts as much as sanitation.
I never understood the point of buying green credits. In most cases, isn't it cheaper to just retool to be green than to buy the credits from the companies and people that have made the switch?
It's the easy way to a clear conscience. Why throw money at R&D when you can just pay a Gore crony for the right to tell the largely ignorant populace that you're green? And the money is going towards research that these companies you're paying are allegedly conducting, right? So you get to feel good, too. Bottom line? It's cheaper to buy some fake credits than it is to actually give a damn, take a risk and actually do the work. It's the American way: Throw money at it and all will be well. Especially when you can spin your non-action into something the people will gobble up as a good deed. Great PR.
EDIT: I remember the first time I heard about this stuff. It was the Grammys or Oscars or some other BS. A televised ad for the show mentioned how it was going to leave absolutely no carbon footprint. Immediately, I thought about how impossible that is. So I looked into stuff and discovered Al's pals and their "gimme money and we'll say you're absolved of your environmental sins" schtick. You know, passing the collection plate for our new Green religion. Now I'm sure some people did the same thing as I and found the same troubling answers. I'm also sure, though, that most people didn't and to this day have no idea what's actually going on. Because most people are dumb. And that makes me feel ... well ... green.
Most so called "green solutions" I've found aren't. At least not "cheap and easy ones"... (looking at Al Gore here when I say that).
Al is such a load of **** I can't believe he was given a Nobel Prize.
Viable energy alternatives include things like the Picken's Plan.
New housing standards (which should honestly include solar panels on the roof as part of the building code -period-). If we lowered our emissions (cars are only 20 percent of the problem stop attacking them ((in America too no less)). Go after the other 80 which is Industrial and home and most of this is the so called "clean Coal")
by around forty to sixty percent global warming would actually start to reverse, and if we some how managed to not emit -any- added greenhouse gases in under 150 years nature will have fully repaired itself. (That will only happen if we are all dead though in my opinion)
Freemarket doesn't work. Period. Freemarket caused the great depression, and caused this one too. (25 percent of the country is now unemployed good job unregulated america!)
Fail. Hardcore.
So yah free non regulated market is a terrible idea.
Infact there has been more -deregulation- over the last thirty years than there has been regulation. Regulations that were put into place to prevent another free for all market, which would then inevitably lead to another Depression. Which is where we find ourselves now thanks to said Regulation Removal. Republicans and those for Free For All Market are the -last- people anyone should ever trust with money because all they like doing is screwing the pooch to get some cash in the -short term- rather than -long term-.
My birthday is in about a month. I plan on having a green birthday. The bar I'm going to, the cars my friends ride in, etc will all leave no carbon footprint. I already sent the check to one of Al Gore's pals' companies to buy the green credits.
The car doesn't care how much money you gave away. It's still going to leave a crabon footprint. Hell, breathing leaves a carbon footprint. Tell ya what. Send me the money. I'll even give you a ten percent discount. I can wave my hands in the air and forgive people for existing just as well as Gore can.
Why not walk to a liquor store, buy the drink materials, and have the party at your house? Then everyone can drink as much as they want, sleep it off in a safe place, and go home in the morning, hungover but alive. (I once had an apartment within staggering distance of my favorite watering hole. Very convenient!)
The Dems were all about de-reg, too. It was what was politically en-vogue for a time.
I think that was more them trying to play the "middle" of the aisle so they could get their other more liberal focused reforms through though. (which still failed. I don't see cheap health care anywhere .... )
I think everyone that thinks Free Market is good should be drug as far away from the ability to control the market as physically possible though. Repubs are just the biggest offenders.
Also, Congress should actually be required to -read- a bill or program -before- they pass it into law.
The gov't also doesn't give a damn about us or care for anything more than their own agendas. The AIG thing was bound to happen. And that's why they let it. Let these money-grubbers grub some free money and reward the failures at the company's top with the bailout cash instead of actually trying to fix the company, wonder aloud "why god, why" and then push for more regulation. Duh. People don't want huge gov't. The gov't does. So they set it up to make it appear to be the only choice. But it's not. The only real choice is to allow these failures to, you know, fail. The gov't won't tell you that, though. Cuz then they can't expand their authority. If this all seems out there, consider this: these same saviors as men recently upped their own salaries. Yup. While I and everyone I know is either taking a cut, not getting a raise, facing increased insurance costs, losing company matched 401k contributions, etc (if they're lucky enough to even keep their jobs), our saviors on the hill are padding their own bank accounts against the inevitable fall. And when everything does collapse, they'll have plenty of cash to start over in another country while we're stuck here.
I'm not a fan of bailouts.
I believe Let Them Die. But I also believe that when a company is dying, no one in the company should be making millions upon millions upon millions a year. No the funds should be going towards saving the company. Or at the very least a very very very large paycut should happen. But it doesn't. There should be salary caps on this stuff. That way the companies can actually stockpile money rather than just burn through it because of some either greedy bastards at the top, or some greedy Unions.
Certain companies (like the auto companies) got borked by things like Moron CEOs and shareholders. And then the UAW kicked in robbing whatever was left over.
And that "direction" consisted of removing several key points of regulation.
So yah free non regulated market is a terrible idea.
Infact there has been more -deregulation- over the last thirty years than there has been regulation. Regulations that were put into place to prevent another free for all market, which would then inevitably lead to another Depression. Which is where we find ourselves now thanks to said Regulation Removal. Republicans and those for Free For All Market are the -last- people anyone should ever trust with money because all they like doing is screwing the pooch to get some cash in the -short term- rather than -long term-.
Did you even read the article I linked? At all? Seriously, most free-market Republicans are being crushed as we speak. They've been increasingly marginalized. Rush Limbaugh is being tossed out as we speak, and he's the most pro-market of the bunch. Heck, George Bush saw a huge expansion of the welfare state with his medical reforms and educational edicts. The current crisis was caused by Alan Greenspan using the FED to manipulate the economy. The FED, a federal institution. Most of his manipulation was based around artificially making loans cheaper, and other branches helped by "encouraging" banks to lend to people who they shouldn't. Yeah, currency manipulation and coercion for "short-term" profit. That sounds like a "free" market alright.
Even if the last thirty years had been nothing but steady de-regulation, that isn't nearly enough to repair the damage FDR and LBJ have done to the nation.
If you think anyone but the government is at fault here, your a fool and when the nation collapses it will only be the fault of yourself and people like you.
Actually that's the very definition of free market. there were measures that were in place before this went down to prevent people from doing said manipulations to keep people from giving out loans they shouldn't have and then they took those away. Gee look what happened. Do you honestly think banks would have restrained themselves from handing out these loans if there hadn't been measures in the past to prevent this? Answer. No. Because they did it before in the 20s. and oh look when the Regs were removed they did it again. The Regs existed to protect banks from themselves.
Government is every bit at fault here as well. Because they decided "Okay we'll let you all do whatever you want! We'll even give you incentives to do so!"
I don't think you quite grasp what Regulation is and what deRegulation means. Making it -easier- to do Free For All -even through artificial means- is infact DeRegulation. Not Regulation. The government wasn't the one that decided that said loans "made sense" through these collaborative Risk Securities (where you compact your garbage to being 1/10 the size but is still garbage of the same weight and mass).
Infact they weren't the ones that came up with the idea.
I was just bein' silly in order to demonstrate the silliness of the carbon credit idea. Cuz it's silly. And so am I. We're such geese. ;)
Okay. Silliness appreciated. Feel free to send me some money, though.:D I'll even fire up my no-smog-device 1968 Ford F-100 and let it idle for bit in your honor. Maybe the fumes'll get that damned bluejay that's been terrorizing my cat.
Last time I checked it wasn't the government embezzeling funds -legally-.
Actually that's the very definition of free market. there were measures that were in place before this went down to prevent people from doing said manipulations to keep people from giving out loans they shouldn't have and then they took those away. Gee look what happened. Do you honestly think banks would have restrained themselves from handing out these loans if there hadn't been measures in the past to prevent this? Answer. No. Because they did it before in the 20s. and oh look when the Regs were removed they did it again. The Regs existed to protect banks from themselves.
Government is every bit at fault here as well. Because they decided "Okay we'll let you all do whatever you want! We'll even give you incentives to do so!"
I don't think you quite grasp what Regulation is and what deRegulation means. Making it -easier- to do Free For All -even through artificial means- is infact DeRegulation. Not Regulation. The government wasn't the one that decided that said loans "made sense" through these collaborative Risk Securities (where you compact your garbage to being 1/10 the size but is still garbage of the same weight and mass).
Infact they weren't the ones that came up with the idea.
And you seem to think that men that are smart enough and driven enough to found, build up, raise, and become multi-millionaires suddenly become retarded knife weilding crazies who would stab passing grandma's for a buck when given the slightest inch. Its quiet possible that there are people out there like that, but the thing is, the market weeds them out. The stupid, mean, and irrational, the market gets rid of. You have to be rational, smart, and a long term thinker to run a buisness, even for a day. Its either that, or you go under. The government encouraged the stupidity in the first place, and is now taking away the economic safety net of bankruptcy. Someone will have to pay the pied paper, and as long as you blame the children and not he rats, he'll keep coming back for more.
Also, you have a very funny way of thinking about de-regulation. Forcing people to make dumb choices with false rewards and threats of economic force does not sound awful de-regulated or "free."
Your wrong. Plain and simple, and it people like you who are going to take this nation down with it.
I also challenge you to provide proof that the banks are at fault here. I challenge you to provide proof that it was the so-called "free" market of the 1920s which caused the Great Depression (Here's a hint: no such thing has existed, especially not after Woodrow "War Socialism" Wilson).
Second, if you are talking economies, non-regulated economies don't work. Fully regulated economies don't work.
You need to be somewhere inbetween, the only argument is where the best spot inbetween is.
When red doesnt work, and blue doesn't work, you need purple. And right now all you are arguing is what shade of purple works best.
Second, if you are talking economies, non-regulated economies don't work. Fully regulated economies don't work.
Sadly, this is where the problem lies. Most people don't even understand the economy as it worked last week, much less over the last seven decades.
In the US, we have a controlled market economy, not a free market economy. If the stock market shows signs of tanking, the markets are closed and trading suspended. If there is a run on the banks, the FDIC exerts control via the shares the Federal Depositors Insurance Corporation owns of the bank and removes and replaces the board of directors. Since the FDIC, a government owned corporation, already owns half of the insured banks through stock issuance, we already have nationalized banks, just not overtly.
When I hear people talk about the "free market", I get a sudden upswell of anger. Apparently no one remembers that the government already owns the FDIC and NCUA (National Credit Union Association). People don't remember that the Government bought 79% of AIG* back in September. When the government begins collecting on the dividends on the money they've put into the economic institutions, the IRS will be rolling in capital.
*Yeah, lets hear more about this one. Since the treasury owns almost 80% of the company, they have the right to remove and replace the board of directors and fire everyone short of the janitor, contract or not. And since the treasury owns the company, regulation isn't necessary, they just need to start carving up the carcass and selling off it's component parts. Since corporate raiders tend to be the first choice for high-ranking positions in the treasury department, I'm sure they could make the government oodles of money doing what they do best, raping the system. They say "too big to fail" and I see a fatted calf, waiting to be carved up for dinner.
Sadly, this is where the problem lies. Most people don't even understand the economy as it worked last week, much less over the last seven decades.
I think you could have left it as "Most people don't even understand the economy."
Seriously. Think about it. Not even ECONOMISTS understand the economy. Every single time something happens, we get 8 different reasons from economists of why it happened, and the one out of a million economist that predicted it happening. I mean, one of them was BOUND to be right. And people think that weathermen are unreliable...
The economy = a nebulous ball of WTF.
The economy = a nebulous ball of WTF.
But it's still amazing the number of people that will tell you without doubt that socialism is bad. No real reason, but it's bad. Forgetting all along that the motto "E Pluribus Unim*" suggests that socialism has and always will exist in the United States in some degree or another.
As it relates to the enviroment, the economy makes it unlikely that people will change the things they buy simply out of a lack of money to buy the things manufactured in an enviromentally friendly manner. The people that **** the enviroment to produce goods in a cheaper manner will profit at the expense of the earth because the economy supports them more readily.
*"Of many, One" our national motto. Too many are willing to overlook this aspect of our nation's identity. Too many forget that the eagle, our symbol of state, holds both arrows and olive branches. Too many people forget that we are one people, united under the banner of one nation, undivided.
Granted, it will have to be a signifigant amount of people to affect a change, after all people as a general rule will just select what is cheaper.
What really works well is informing people about how buying the
green" items will actually SAVE them money. After all flourescent lights last longer, and cost less energy which saves money.
Okay first off, Earth hour probably wasn't meant as a real environmental tool, but more of a protest of sorts, meant to get people in the environmental mindset. The same reason people have parades and marches.
This was, AFAIK, the case. The purpose was to raise awareness.
And you seem to think that men that are smart enough and driven enough to found, build up, raise, and become multi-millionaires suddenly become retarded knife weilding crazies who would stab passing grandma's for a buck when given the slightest inch. Its quiet possible that there are people out there like that, but the thing is, the market weeds them out. The stupid, mean, and irrational, the market gets rid of. You have to be rational, smart, and a long term thinker to run a buisness, even for a day. Its either that, or you go under. The government encouraged the stupidity in the first place, and is now taking away the economic safety net of bankruptcy. Someone will have to pay the pied paper, and as long as you blame the children and not he rats, he'll keep coming back for more.
Also, you have a very funny way of thinking about de-regulation. Forcing people to make dumb choices with false rewards and threats of economic force does not sound awful de-regulated or "free."
Your wrong. Plain and simple, and it people like you who are going to take this nation down with it.
I also challenge you to provide proof that the banks are at fault here. I challenge you to provide proof that it was the so-called "free" market of the 1920s which caused the Great Depression (Here's a hint: no such thing has existed, especially not after Woodrow "War Socialism" Wilson).
You are so obviously slanted (are you the guy from Fox News?) and biased towards the right it's actually bordering on zealotry. No it doesn't. The market does not take care of itself. It's actually that Hands off Approach (I can't spell Lassai Fare or whatever it is to save my life right now) that lead to the great Depression. Good old Silent Cal and his cronies.
If having a brain and being smart enough to realize that no the Market doesn't regulate itself, means I'm "taking the country down in flames" I'd much rather be wrong than be so stupid as to guarantee that the rich only get richer Monopolies happen and then the country burns down as a whole anyway with a select few untouched until they are being ransacked, burned and killed by the people that -don't- have anything else left. You apparently don't know jack about history that wasn't preached to you in the Free Market Choir (go read a text book some time about why businesses are regulated. Read what happened when government was -really- controlled by business. Read up on the crap Rockefeller pulled along with the other big tycoons and tell me "they are out for the good of society".)
You also apparently have done zero research about how this actually went down which is equally frightening but I guess I should expect that from someone that obviously gladly takes whatever is spoon fed to him by other crazy reality denying zealots or have allowed yourself to be swayed by others that Deny History and Reality alike.
I doubt even someone so far gone as you can say that history text books and shows alike are some how slanted and biased against "conservative" views. Lassai Fare (whatever) lead to Depression. Happened once. and oh look we are there again when the Regs were peeled off.
Furthermore you are assuming that the people that made X company are the ones presently in control (here's a hint most of them aren't of the ones that are in trouble). And you are assuming that some how these people in control give a rats ass about the company they are running and not their 5 million dollar a year pay check which they can boost even -higher- by making stupid decisions that will run the company into the dirt in a long term because really their fate -isn't tied to the company they work for- they make their crap tons of cash and leave.
There's a middleground that has to be walked. Utter Free For All leads to short term insane gains for the people up top while everyone -not at the top- dies. Total Control and you end up with Communist Russia. (well you do at least if you pay everyone the -exact same-)
You also seem to be so inane as to assume I'm pro bailout. **** no let them burn. Infact I'm a -huge- proponent of letting Moron Banks Fail At Life. Certain industries which got screwed over (in no small part thanks to the banks) however which actually -make things- and -make jobs that matter- like auto companies? No they shouldn't be allowed to die. Our manufacturing base is so pathetic that without them that a great many not car companies will fall apart and die. Banks? The only thing that dies with a bank is well the bank. Thanks to FDIC their death really doesn't impact the rest of the country like say an Auto Manufacturer the size of GM, Ford or Dodge.
Seriously. I usually find the people here pretty cool and relaxed. But suddenly you become the genius in the room, and everyone you don't agree with becomes a retard.
Stop acting like you know everything, and stop attacking the other person just because they don't agree with you. (This is a general statement to both sides. I have no interest in "who is right".)
(yes, I know I could just report it, but I just felt like telling people how ridiculous they sound when they act like they know the "ONE TRUTH")
-snip-
So I'm a stupid idiot who knows nothing of history except what has been fed to me by my ultra-right overlords and I'm stupid and wrong and stupid, correct?
Now, did I not ask you to provide evidence of your position, correct? I asked you, straight up, to provide evidence that the free-market both existed and lead to both depressions. Your reply? To accuse me of insanity and stupidty and to vomit the same stupid marxist and pragmatist slogans into my face. I was being harsh with you, granted, but your post pretty much was nothing but vitriolic diarrhea. By the way, I am doing something you have failed to do this entire discussion: here are my sources;
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=5469 <==-- Discusses about how the New Right is crushing and alienating free-marketeers.
http://www.independent.org/publications/article.asp?id=113 <==-- Gives a brief overview of federal expansion into economic control during WWI. In other words, there was no free market after WWI.
http://mises.org/story/2902 <==-- Discussion on how Hoover's economic interventionism crippled and prolonged the Great Depression.
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=5304 <==-- General discussion by esteemed Austrian Economist on the nature and failure of government interventionism. Read the rest here: http://www.capmag.com/category.asp?page=3&order=&catID=27
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=5455 <==-- Discussion of the current economic crisis's governmental causes.
I heartily encourage everyone to read these pieces, they are of great value to everyone here and highly educational. If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go get this thread locked for CoC violations.
Boy, there was a lot of advertisement for Ayn Rand books and just glowing reviews.
I went to the base site of most of your links. www.capmag.com.
Boy, there was a lot of advertisement for Ayn Rand books and just glowing reviews.
Is there a problem with that? I also linked to independent sites and a site related to Rothbard and a long piece by Ludwig von Mises who came to his conclusions completely independent of Ayn Rand. It doesn't really matter though: facts are facts, no matter who says them.
Thanks to FDIC their death really doesn't impact the rest of the country like say an Auto Manufacturer the size of GM, Ford or Dodge.
The biggest problem with this is that companies like Citigroup and AIG are partially protected by the FDIC. BY removing the regulations that seperated capital finance banks, banks and insurance companies, they made it possible for insurance companies and capital finance banks to be protected by the FDIC. They'll be bailed out by the TARP program or by the raping the FDIC's coffers. The government just opted to establish another source of bailout funding so that the FDIC wouldn't go bankrupt before it has to rescue the banks that have been playing by the rules from before.
As far as the auto companies go, I honestly can't say what they need to survive. If I was the CiC right now, I'd authorize the sec of the Treasury to buy shares of the auto companies so that the auto companies can recapitalize in the way they are supposed to under normal circumstances. Normally if the big 3 need more money, they issue more stock and sell it off just under the current market price. If the gov't buys shares from the company at around the price before the big dump on wall street, the government could essentially help them by becoming a majority shareholder*.
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*I've put quite a bit of thought into this and it's the most likely to work. If the government allows corporations to recapitalize by issuing shares of stock to be purchased by the government. The government has a voice in how any corporation works that accepts the help, free access to the corporation's records and the right to collect dividends from the corporation.
And if it looks like a corporation is going into the toilet, the government can step in, exert control, toss the board into the toilet, part up the company and sell off it's component parts (possibly even at a profit). I know that the word nationalism scares the pants off everyone, but think of it as investment in American corporations by the nation, if it helps.
The obvious benefit is that the government will profit from it in one of three ways. First, the government gains the control it needs to be able to help sustain the corporations. Second, the government gains the leverage it needs to be able to dismantle corporations that it deems as "too big to fail" so that no one part of it can drag down the rest. And third, the government could show a finacial profit** from it.
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**The value of the stock would increase the financial means of the government. If a corporation turns around and it's stock begins to rise, the government could sell it's shares back to the company or onto the open market to recoup the loss of it's financial support.
If the shares are held until the price goes above what the government spent to buy them, the government would turn a profit for every share it holds. In the mean time, however, the government would be entitled to a dividend for every share of stock in it's portfolio. Conceivably, the government could use the income from it's portfolio to support programs like social security, medicare, medicaid, socialized medicine, public schools and the like.
It's possible, over the course of time, that the government would no longer need to tax it's citizens, by instead becoming an investor in the major corporations within it's jurisdiction. The ability to impose tarrifs and prohibit manufacturing being moved overseas would help to strengthen the American economy.
And finally, the potential trillions of dollars the government could reap from being able to buy into purely American businesses would help to fund our nation's ability to invest in the small busness community by boosting the amount of financial means that the government would have to help start those hot new businesses.
The biggest problem with this is that companies like Citigroup and AIG are partially protected by the FDIC.
I still wonder why the FDIC doesn't make money for the government.
Since the FDIC insures your money by owning 50% of the stock of every bank protected by it, where do the dividends that those shares are entitled to go?
I hate having to quote myself, but it was a question I had and I was the only one that mentioned anything about how the FDIC works. My apologies.
Also people need to starting buying American again if possible. (Can't tell you the last time I saw a child's toy made over here)
Your solution is one of the better ones. They also need to be taking more government works projects up to get people working again -so that people can buy stuff-.
You can say that again. The roads around here are horrible and we could certainly use a bit more general infrastructure. New roads, new schools, fiberoptic lines for communications, hydroelectric plants, solar fields and wind turbines are all things that could be built, but ultimately we need to get the financial structures shored up first so that the means to disperse the funds is in place.
Buying American is good, but you have to remember that buying foreign made goods puts tarrif money in the government's coffers. And what about American companies that manufacture outside the US?
Caterpillar does some of it's manufacturing in Europe and Toyota builds quite a few of their products in Ohio. Does it count as buying American if the company is owned here or if they manufacture goods here? Where do you draw the line? More importantly, how do you know?
The whole world is standing on the edge looking down. If we can get our own house sorted out, we may not have the economy fixed. It very well could still crumble after we fix the banking industry. By supporting the industries of other nations, we could help to bring their economy up alongside ours. It's a very convoluted and complicated problem that we can't fix from just our end. We may have to help our neighbors just to keep our house from falling down.
Japanese car companies are okay to buy from because they actually have plants over here in the first place and if you are buying a Camry over here, it's made over here. It's not really coming from overseas anymore.
I count it, as buying American when what you buy goes directly at least in some small way back to American Workers. American owned simply isn't enough because of outsourcing. (which should never have been given -incentives for- actually it should have been -penalties- for doing so). Buying a Toyota, it'll probably get back to American workers. Unless you -know- you imported it from Japan.
We need to totally repower and redo our infrastructure though at this point. That should be priority one. It gets people working again and it rebuilds the country. We have absolutely terrible infrastructure. it's estimated for example that up to half the bridges in NC are probably below code level and could be potentially dangerous.
We need to totally repower and redo our infrastructure though at this point. That should be priority one. It gets people working again and it rebuilds the country. We have absolutely terrible infrastructure. it's estimated for example that up to half the bridges in NC are probably below code level and could be potentially dangerous.
Georgia actually spends a lot of state money on infrastructure. If you can drive all the way into Atlanta and back from my house(only about an hour from here) it would be amazing if you didn't run into at least ONE road crew, and more than likely you will run into more than that. I can actually physically FEEL it when I cross the border into a neighboring state. The roads in Florida for instance, ARE HORRIBLE.
Georgia actually spends a lot of state money on infrastructure. If you can drive all the way into Atlanta and back from my house(only about an hour from here) it would be amazing if you didn't run into at least ONE road crew, and more than likely you will run into more than that. I can actually physically FEEL it when I cross the border into a neighboring state. The roads in Florida for instance, ARE HORRIBLE.
The interstate highways here in Iowa need resurfacing almost every other year due to buckling from the ground freezing and thawing numerous times over the course of a year. I saw sections last year that had potholes wide enough to swallow the tires of a standard car and deep enough to set a car down on it's frame. Thankfully they patched alot of those up quickly, but what if there had been a fatality from someone hitting one of those potholes at 70 miles per hour?
Granted no one really cares about Iowa roads. We only have I-80, I-380 and I-35. The part I was talking about was on I-380 and it runs through three of the five biggest cities in the state. If the trucks can't roll down our highways, the country doesn't eat. Quaker Oats, General Mills, Cargill and ADM all rely on the roads here to get their raw materials and to ship out their finished goods. Our roads affect people hundreds of miles away and they don't even know it.
That's the kind of infrastructure that needs work, serious work. It needs to be done at a federal level to ensure that it's done correctly and completely. Cities like New York, Chicago and Los Angeles can't survive without good access by road so that food and other trade goods can get to the people there and people understand that. What they never consider is the roads in the places where those foods are grown and those goods are made.
We should also be using the Roman Concrete instead of the crap we use so it won't need to be redone every ten years or less.
We could also use the Roman organizational model and use our army to build roads and public works, couldn't we?
I remember when they were running fiberoptic lines through all of downtown Athens... god all the work crews drove me INSANE. You couldn't actually GET anywhere.
You know, the whole global warming awareness thing was pretty secondary for me. It isn't why I participated. I think global warming is overemphasized and nobody talks about any other environmental problems. So why was Earth Hour so important to me? Because it actually reduced the pollution I am currently most against: light pollution.
So to everyone who turned all their lights on during Earth Hour just to be asses: Thanks for polluting, jerks.
About Earth Hour...
You know, the whole global warming awareness thing was pretty secondary for me. It isn't why I participated. I think global warming is overemphasized and nobody talks about any other environmental problems. So why was Earth Hour so important to me? Because it actually reduced the pollution I am currently most against: light pollution.
So to everyone who turned all their lights on during Earth Hour just to be asses: Thanks for polluting, jerks.
If I turned on every light in my house, it still wouldn't equal the amount of light pollution (which I also don't care for) coming from street lights, business lights (especially the ones that leave their name illuminated even though they're closed for the night), billboard illumination, the local ballpark, the traffic lights, headlights, taillights, signal lights, etc. that are all-pervasive throughout the night. If you live far enough away from the population that you don't have to deal with these things, then my lights wouldn't affect you (and I envy you). If you live close enough, my lights are insignificant compared to the tons coming from other sources.
I admit I have one light on my house that you might have a legitimate beef about. Our porch light is a 500 watt halogen motion sensitive light. When nothing's going on, it rests fairly dim, like an ordinary porch light. For security reasons, when motion triggers it (the sensor is aimed at sensitive areas of the yard), it paints the yard with 500 watts of glorious illumination. We call it our "Scare-punk". Since installing it, they've stopped trying to break into our cars, although the occasional idiot makes the attempt only to find himself comlpetely lit up for the world to see (and lately, soaked to his panties) and the angry owners interfering with his display of stupidity.*
*Directly confronting such people can be lethal, and we aren't willing to risk a shoot-out over our cars, so we have strategically placed water-hoses with remote switches. Kinda hard to look bad-ass when you look like circus clowns just mugged you with seltzer bottles!
Liberalism (in the guise of socialism) is destroying the United States in front of our very eyes.
Which socialistic portion would you exise first? Social Security? Medicare? Unemployment insurance? Labor Unions? Student loan programs? Public schools? Municipal water and sewer services? Perhaps the printing of currency?
Socialism has been with us as long as there have been cities, much less nations. When people first banded together in groups for a common defense, socialism was born. When hunting became a communal affair, socialism was there. And unless you barter for everything you have, never see a doctor, never flush a toilet, never drive a car and never eat anything that you didn't grow or hunt yourself, you have benefitted from that very socialism that you blame for the destruction of one nation.
Now how is it destroying the United States again?