Thoughs, comments.
I find myself asking this question, if there is such a large number of D&D interest coming from the WoW generation, should we not be embracing them into our genre of RPG.
Yes.
The fact remains that the market and trend of thinking among the people that purchase the game has changed. In its heart the concept of D&D is most commonly associated with gamers in their teens and early 20's. This is where the vast majority of sales are going to occur. While there is a definite market in the adult section of life, the developers had to look more to the demographic they thought that they would get the majority of their sales from. And the people in that demographic are the same ones that are mostly, (MOSTLY), playing WoW.
It only makes sense from the company's view to market a game that captures the interest of people playing one of the worlds most profitable RPG themed games on the planet. To have something that they can relate to in a setting among friends who also are familiar with the game ideas of their favorite computer games is a no brainer for WoTC.
The problem is that there are people that see this idea as a bad thing for the game they have come to love. A lot of folk love to play D&D, and some of them don't want the game they enjoy to have anything to do with what they see as a computer game genre. The idea of paring their beloved fantasy worlds and imaginations down to the what they may see as the limits of a restricted game world ideal might chafe some folk.
And these new players are going to use the terminology that while it may not be strictly D&D originated, is something they can associate with more readily. The terminology that is associated with the game they share a passion for is that which they can more freely use to explain the concepts in the D&D game to each other without confusion.
However, they have as much right to post using those terms as anyone on here. They are fans of the game, and are doing their part to ensure that D&D survives on into it's fifth decade in the years to come. I mean, in 2014 it will be 50 years of D&D. Tell me something that hasn't changed much in the last 50 years that is a part of popular culture. The new generation of D&D fan has as much right to use it's terms of reference as we did to use ours.
In the end each person reading the posts has the single ability to be able to ignore something that might upset them and move on. After all, it's their game too.
A lot of folk love to play D&D, and some of them don't want the game they enjoy to have anything to do with what they see as a computer game genre.
It might not be so simple. The thing is, computer games, and the mentality of creators and users changed over the last 10-15 years. Role-playing games were much slower to change, and when it comes to the users, they are even slower to change, if they change at all.
To illustrate the point, games of 90s were about storyline and trying to stimulate and challenge player's thinking process. Users didn't care about balance - being the underdog and going against the odds was completely and utterly normal.
Today, action, dynamics and speed is pretty much what sells the game. With rise of multiplayer, balance became important. Even strategy games are centered more on action and skill aspect rather than ability to think in a way the older strategy games required you to.
3E D&D I think was where these two mentalities met. You could just see the differences between playstyles and mentality of different games too clearly. And now 4E follows the current trends in game design, which is where I guess most of the disappointment is coming from.
We, as a group, in general, are elitists.
I'm an elitist, and many D&D players I know are elitist. I TRY not to be, but often enough I find myself being elitist.
This comes from a desire to be special, which draws people to the D&D mindset to begin with. Your characters are special, they are more capable and talented than the world around them. Thats what makes them able to be heroes.
Here's the rub, if a lot of people are able and willing to play this game, it loses the allure of being special. Of being elite. And this makes people upset.
I understand the feeling,b ut it isn't right to feel that way. D&D shouldn't be for the elite, for the few. The game should be universally playable because everyone who desires to roleplay a character deserves to be able to. You shouldn't try to force people out of the game just because you want to feel special.
Now if new people bring a game you don't like, you don't have to play WITH them, but don't try to drive away people from the game in general just because it makes you feel special to do so.
Of course that is just one reason people don't like WoW players or WoW terminology migrating to D&D.
Another reason is, having played WoW, I can understand why oW players in particular are not an attractive idea.
Simply put, WoW has a large cross section of the whole world, including gamers and even many non-gamer types. It is wildly popular, and as such you get all types. Now people in general aren bad or jerks necessarily when you meet them in person. But you give a regular guy anonymity and an audience, they turn into a real jackass.
See here: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/
WARNING: Strong language. If you ever read Penny Arcade, you understand this.
Well what all this means is that when you meet WoW players, they often act like a jerk, so people who play the game assume that WoW players are in fact jerks in real life. Not necessarily true. Granted these people should get hit on the head with a pipe wrench when they act like that so they learn some damn etiquette even when playing a game but many of those people would be fine to play a game like D&D with, where personal interaction is very important.
Finally, there are people who equate simplification and streamlining mechanics with dumbing down of a system. This is simply not true. Now there is a balance that needs to be struck between simplification and sophistication of a system, but finding a more efficient way to get from point A to point B is not dumbing a system down. We saw people make the same claim when it came to Thac0. Changing Thac0 to Base Attack Bonus was a simpler way to calculate and far more intuitive. Yet people screamed that it made the game for dum-dums because it was easier to do. People would whine and say "I can't believe you people can't do simple math!", which was totally missing the point.
Think of Thaco as being the back door of a house and BAB as the front door. Well you normally come from the front so the front door is easier, and then you get this conversation from a person:
"You came into the house from the front door? Why don't you use the back door?"
"The front door is closer. And people normally walk through front doors anyway as a preference."
"I can't believe you are so out of shape you can't walk around the house to the back door!"
"What? No I CAN walk that far, but why should I?"
"Because only out of shape people go the easy way!"
How does this relate to WoW? Well you see, people equate WoW with a system being dumbed down. They feel that WoW is a brutally simple game and that any idiot can play it (which is true to a degree, but then again I played a rogue so I was mashing 2 buttons most of the time). The weak link is that they don't realize that certain ideas and concepts that MMOs use aren't actually BAD IDEAS. And they also don't realize that often these concepts did not originate in MMOs.
People say "Oh now clerics and wizards can't be tanks/defenders. That is so like WOW to force people into those roles."
The answer is simply, D&D did that idea first. Before 3.5, back in the 1st, 2nd, and even earlier 3rd days, wizards and clerics COULDN'T fulfill the roles that fighters and barbarians and rogues filled. It wasn't until the spell lists and prestige class lsists and feat lists were expanded did the wizard and cleric gain that sort of power (and spells like divine power). WoW on the other hand, makes sure that in non-PvP areas, everybody has a role based on class. they perform a function that contributes to the team. See where I am getting?
With all the build options available, a 3.5 character was less likely to be a team player than an MMO player. 4e took the concept of role filling, which was most prevalent in MMOs, in order to promote teamwork and functionality. That is a GOOD thing that 4e has taken from an MMO.
At any rate, people love to scapegoat anyway, and calling something WoWlike is a great crutch for a poor argument. I believe someone created a theory called "Reductio ad WoW" which was essentially the favored http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum argument, switching WoW and Hitler around. Basically Godwins Law in effect with just a minor tweak.
I was born in 84, been around DnD since 87, and even have those paper backs. Got a ton of 2ed Books...Got a ton of 3ed Books...got some more 3.5ed Books...and still have yet to purchase 4ed, though I have read them and the system is ok.
World of Farmcraft - I enjoyed a great deal. Played for like two years, since patch 1.6 to BC and I played hard core. My favorite aspect of the game was PVP and endgame, both of which I did rather well.
Now DnD was awesome because there was a hell of a lot more freedom in what you could do. To me Dungeons and Dragons always exercised the creativity portion of the mind...and without the game I would not have done as well on vocabulary tests throughout school. You would be surprised how many words in DnD like initiative for example, will come up on Graduation Tests.
Anyhow it is my honest opinion that they are going to push a MMO to compete with WoW. 4ed is better than 3.Xed for an MMO. Just give it some time you know I am right.
Also...I have not seen too much hate towards WoW. Then again WoW jaded me on the whole message board thing. You think WotC Boards are bad...go to WoW boards and play.
See...I can speak from all sides.
I was born in 84, been around DnD since 87, and even have those paper backs. Got a ton of 2ed Books...Got a ton of 3ed Books...got some more 3.5ed Books...and still have yet to purchase 4ed, though I have read them and the system is ok.
World of Farmcraft - I enjoyed a great deal. Played for like two years, since patch 1.6 to BC and I played hard core. My favorite aspect of the game was PVP and endgame, both of which I did rather well.
Now DnD was awesome because there was a hell of a lot more freedom in what you could do. To me Dungeons and Dragons always exercised the creativity portion of the mind...and without the game I would not have done as well on vocabulary tests throughout school. You would be surprised how many words in DnD like initiative for example, will come up on Graduation Tests.
Anyhow it is my honest opinion that they are going to push a MMO to compete with WoW. 4ed is better than 3.Xed for an MMO. Just give it some time you know I am right.
Also...I have not seen too much hate towards WoW. Then again WoW jaded me on the whole message board thing. You think WotC Boards are bad...go to WoW boards and play.
You think the WoW BOARDS are bad?
There is a reason they make shirts that say "I survived Barrens Chat".
I think I'm experiencing PTSD. @.@
Anyhoo.. what makes a WoW poster here any different then a random newcomer? Both don't know the system, but people seem biased towards the former.
I think we should all embrace RPGs as a whole, and feed off of each other's energies. That way everything becomes better.
Granted by default you do not have to look at the WoW Boards...while you have to listen to the Barren Chat unless you turn it off.
I have been playing D&D off and on sence around '86 or when ever the red box set came out. I'm a fan, I love 3.x, who ever came up with D20 is a damn geneous, I always hated THaC0. I also have level 70 priest on WoW, I'm a fan, I love the real time aspect. However WoW leaves a noticabely empty spot for me in an RPG, namely the RP part. As far as 4E, well there parts of I like, parts of it I don't. I think that anytime you can stream line the machanics of D&D, (OMG) for the explicit purpose of speeding up the game, is a good thing. How many times (I frett to count) has RP'ing been bogged down by combat machanics.
At some point in the future I will get the 4E books, however right now, I have about $500 of 3.5 books spread out on my dinning room table for a campaigning I'm running and designing. I think thow that I will ultimately just mesh 3.5 and 4E as I have already done so with the paladin.
I have also embraced some aspects of WoW into my game. I developed a "mana" pool system for spell casters. I have created and adopted other conversions of WoW classes for my game, as well as a couple of WoW races.
Just lead to off with this last thought. I think that it is wanderful that wizards has been so successfull in drawing in the next generation of table top games from the WoW base. Largely because; while WoW is fun and easy to play; it is for a large part "mindless" fun, and D&D (argue against me if you want) is game with a much larger potential to get player thinking and thinking about more than just there stats. Now if you dissagree with last statement, I suggest that you turn to your DM and say hey how about some damn puzzels.
Usually the WoW mentality is that of a game, or final goal. End-game, raiding, PVP, being the best at something in your server. And usually everything that you do up to that point is oriented solely towards advancing. Most people do whatever quests that get them the most exp or items, and they kill the mobs that give them the most exp or drops. Now please don't think i'm knocking it, it's fun, the graphics and mechanics are great (for that purpose), some of the storylines and quests are original and intriguing, but for every challenge that you face in WoW, there are 200 or more people that have already faced and overcome that same quest, mob, challenge. you can ask for help, have someone power-level you, look up thotbot, or just grind. Again, i'm not saying everyone plays that way, but c'mon, most of WoW's population does, very few 'role-play' or even have any interest in it. Again, not a slam, just an observation.
The DnD mentality is a little different. IMHO people like to advance, but it's nto the be-all, end-all to dnd. Most people I know enjoy 3rd level as much as 7th level as much as 15th... so on and so forth. Each has it's own story, and moments and pros and cons. DnD has never felt to me to be a 'race' to reach level 20... or 30 (4th ed). Not saying people don't care about advancing, it's fun, but it's just another part of the game, not the end goal.
So, on to my main point. DnD has a smaller player base than WoW, although i can't quote stats, i think that's a pretty reasonable assumption. So let's say you play a sport... like Cricket, or Lacrosse. Personally i've never played either of these, but they look fun in their own way. and they must have some kind of appeal because they've been around for quite a while. Now let's look at American Football. A much bigger sport (at least in USA) with a lot more fans than Cricket or Lacrosse. I
t seems to me that a lot of Dnd people are reacting as if there were this flood of Football fans coming in and saying... "How do you score a touchdown in Cricket again?" or "when you play Lacrosse, who is the defensive lineman and who is the quarterback?" It's not bad in of itself because they are trying to learn a new game, but i can understand where the old school would be offended that someone is trying to push the terms for a completely different game onto their most favorite game ever.
whew, i have to stop now, i'm getting dizzy. : P
I hope i've made a fraction of sense. : )
Angel Blade
like I said, I have been playing D&D sense the red box AD&D edition, and I have posted WoW racial and class conversions for d20 play on the boards. Mostly with welcome and helpfull responces.
I just think (imo) that we old head gamers should be more receptive of the younger WoW generation gamers, and help them along in their role playing growth.
WoW sucks! Boo! Boo! (BTW if you play WoW I'm Pigknight, Server: Hyjal)
did you ever have pigknight on lightbringer? the name sounds familiar.
No I did not. There is a Pigknight on Lightbringer. Think I can sue him.
My other characters are:
Pigdruid
Pigcrusader
Pigassassin
Pigshaman
Pigwizard
Pigwarlock
Pigranger
Pigpriest (ask me to heal I dare you)
For my Death Knight I'm going to mix it up a bit and name him either Necropig or Necroticpig. [/derail] (Happy? I used D&D commands too.)
WoW Boards are worse than Barrens hands down...
Granted by default you do not have to look at the WoW Boards...while you have to listen to the Barren Chat unless you turn it off.
You mean some people play with General Chat turned on? Huh, I guess you learn something new every day.
The assumption that some people make that all WoW players are both ignorant of D&D and 12 years old really boils my spuds.
I play WoW, have done for about 2.5 years, and I started playing because it was like D&D. I have made many online friends there - some whom I also know in real-life - and save for one they all played D&D long before WoW.
The sad truth is that StealthMarmot nailed it right on the head: WoW hate by D&D players is elitism borne of ignorance.
For my Death Knight I'm going to mix it up a bit and name him either Necropig or Necroticpig.
Death? Pig? Why not just call him Bacon? ;)
Like kiting a dragon into crossroads.
There really are some things in WoW that will bring a tear to your eye...
Like kiting a dragon into crossroads.
Speaking of Crossroads…
I have played Alliance since I started the game. In the past month or two my mates and I have been playing Horde on another server, killing time until WotLK comes out. We are really enjoying it and it has given us some new insight into the "other side" of the game. It has also inspired me to send this message to all my fellow Alliance players: PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, STOP RAIDING THE ****ING CROSSROADS!!!!!
The only thing I can say is if you want to level fishing and have fun as alliance...do it in Ratchet...
It is amazing how many people die while you are leveling that boring skill.
level fishing and have fun
Now that is an oxymoron if I've ever heard one. ;)
I had aquatic form...
Now a ton of low levels would hit me...then get owned by the guards...as would some high levels...
Finally I jumped into the water and was chased...needless to say I scrolled the camera around and waited for them to start swimming up...then I stopped...cast roots...and let them drown...
Good way to level fishing.
Now that is an oxymoron if I've ever heard one. ;)
Fishing in videogames; I'll never get this one.
If it's boring in real-life, why are we dedicating code to putting into something that's supposed to be fun?
Of course, one of my wife's favorite things about Fable was the fishing. Same with Animal Crossing. Maybe it's just not for me. Odd how it's a pastime dominated by old guys in real life, but if it's electronic it's for the ladies.
Speaking of Crossroads…
I have played Alliance since I started the game. In the past month or two my mates and I have been playing Horde on another server, killing time until WotLK comes out. We are really enjoying it and it has given us some new insight into the "other side" of the game.
I started out Alliance, and moved over to Horde out of curiosity. I have never looked back. I am Horde and proud of it! Tarren Mill!
The only real drawback to playing Horde I have found is experiencing Barrens chat.
Fishing in videogames; I'll never get this one.
If it's boring in real-life, why are we dedicating code to putting into something that's supposed to be fun?
Of course, one of my wife's favorite things about Fable was the fishing. Same with Animal Crossing. Maybe it's just not for me. Odd how it's a pastime dominated by old guys in real life, but if it's electronic it's for the ladies.
Yes it is not fun leveling anything in WoW...
That is why I call it World of Farmcraft because everything is repetitive as hell...and the game is all about farming...your ability to do the same task over and over again until you achieve the desired outcome...and then you find something else to do over and over again until you achieve the desired outcome...never ending cycle.
Anyhow leveling fishing has its benefits if you do endgame. Lets you have more consumables to play a bit stronger....and sometimes that bit goes a long way.
I started Alliance and have 4 70's. My highest Horde is a 40 Druid (I'm levelling this one to 70). I play both sides, but spend most of my time on the Alliance side. I've raided End Game, but I don't enjoy it much so I just tend to endlessly level alts.
D&D? I started with the white box...and moved to the red and on. Back in '78. I've played every edition and DM'ed every edition. I've played and GM'ed many other RPG's as well. Invested tons of time in computer games (D&D Gold Box all the way up to Spellforce and Diablo), beta tested UO, ran my own Shard, EQ for years...City of Heroes/Villains...and WoW, even AoC for a bit.
I've run the gambit. One thing I've noticed is that it seems like computer games and MMO's borrowed from PnP RPG's first and now PnP RPG's are borrowing from MMO's. Which, considering the success of the number of players in MMO's, that makes a lot of sense. I'm sure the cycle will continue as well.
As it is, there are things I like and dislike about both gaming systems and the nice thing, bouncing between them keeps me from getting overly neurotic about anything in any one of them, because when a game gets stressful and tedious, its time to move on to something else.
Personally, I think the more people who are exposed to RPG elements, computer or PnP, is only a good thing. There's bad apples in all the bunches, but there's good ones too. I wouldn't trade in any of my experiences in either genre.
...well, except maybe that one with the succubus, the kobold, the Sovereign Glue and the catcher's mitt...
Fishing in videogames; I'll never get this one.
At least in Fable you actually did something while fishing. In WoW goes like this:
Click mouse button
Wait 30 seconds
Click mouse button again
Be told whether you succeeded or not
Grinding and leveling skills is never much fun, but leveling fishing in Wow is the polar opposite of fun. I think fishing in WoW is actually composed of rare antifun particles and that if even a single iota of fun were to occur while fishing the entire WoW universe would explode.
...well, except maybe that one with the succubus, the kobold, the Sovereign Glue and the catcher's mitt...
Dear Penthouse,
...
At least in Fable you actually did something. Fishing in WoW goes a little like this:
Click mouse button
Wait 30 seconds
Click mouse button again
Be told whether you succeeded or not
Yeah, no thanks.
Things like that make me glad I've never played WoW. I played the TCG (and wrote online articles for it in it's infancy, back before I got a real job), but not the MMORPG.
I like my games to have a little bit of non-combat stuff to do, if only so the wife can get interested in them. Spending hours at a time catching fish, though? If I want that I'll find a boat and a pond, thanks.
Right now I'm playing Too Human, so there's none of that silly fishing stuff to be had. Just me, my 'zerk's contrails and tons of dead goblins. ;)
lvl 70 ud lock
lvl 70 ud rogue
lvl 70 belf hunter
Have more played on druid than the 3 horde 70s combined...did endgame on horde and alliance...
No difference...same cool people and idiots on both sides...lol
Once upon a time the only difference you could say was Shamans...once upon a time you could say Fear Ward...now there is not much.
You think fishing is bad...
Try farming epix
Yeah, no thanks.
Things like that make me glad I've never played WoW.
Nha, it's a tiny part of the game - infinitesimal, really - and one easily ignored.
I played the TCG (and wrote online articles for it in it's infancy, back before I got a real job), but not the MMORPG.
If you ever change your mind look up Boraxe on the Medivh server.
I like my games to have a little bit of non-combat stuff to do, if only so the wife can get interested in them. Spending hours at a time catching fish, though? If I want that I'll find a boat and a pond, thanks.
For me the non-combat stuff that makes it fun is hanging out with my mates.
All require you to do hours upon hours of repetitive tasks...
Like DnD...there is never winning in WoW.
Dear Penthouse,
...
...and then the Drow Priestess raiding party arrived and things got REALLY weird...
---
I've levelled fishing before, it really is tedious. You DO use it to summon a boss in Serpent Shrine Temple. You fish the boss up lol. Other then that, you use it to make stat or damage boosting food.
If I hadn't been watching a House marathon I probably never would have levelled it up.
In any event, it is a small part of the game. The most fun I have is levelling with my friends and hanging out with new, cool people and levelling with them. I didn't even care too much for raiding with friends...gets too stressful high end.
The middle parts are best in my opinion.
Any place with spiders really.
Spiers, especially game spiders really creep me out. I tend to avoid those places.
I actually never went far in ZG.
Any place with spiders really.
Spiers, especially game spiders really creep me out. I tend to avoid those places.
That is awesome...how did you feel about AQ bugs?
Having read a lot of the posts on here I think the general consensus is that most people who have taken the time to read this thread and post thoughts on it are accepting of the idea of new blood being introduced to the D&D game.
What gets me is that a very decent adaptation of WoW to the D20 system was put out a couple years ago. Personally I bought the main rule-book and three or four of the guidebooks for this WoW RPG and was very satisfied with the way the game was handled. The idea of racial classes being and option to level up prior to starting on character classes was a good one, as well as the fact that so much of the game world and it's distinctive flavor of RPG was carried into the game manuals.
But in this case all terms and ideals were based into the D&D 3.5 concept of gameplay, and as such the terminology printed was consistent with the core game books being printed at that time. The lexicon being used was the same as that you would find in any other game being played by other D&D groups.
The problem I think people are having nowadays doesn't stem so much from the influx of players from the worlds of WoW, Lineage, Everquest, or other such MMO's as it does with the fact that the core game itself if tending towards adopting the ideals of an online game itself. Once again this becomes an issue with game versions, and it really shouldn't.
As I said before in my previous post, the game has to adapt. And still believe that the concept of MMO mentality as far as gameplay is the way to go. MMOs promote group play by necessity of role fullfillment. As StealthMarmot stated earlier in his own post:
With all the build options available, a 3.5 character was less likely to be a team player than an MMO player. 4e took the concept of role filling, which was most prevalent in MMOs, in order to promote teamwork and functionality. That is a GOOD thing that 4e has taken from an MMO.
Even in earlier versions of D&D the idea of role fulfillment was one that was placed on class selection. In AD&D and 2nd Ed the idea of certain roles being needed for a party was fairly common. You had your frontline warriors, your back row casters, and your sneaky types working along the flanks. The only real difference between these early groups and the concept of an MMO party is that of the amount of roleplaying that might of occurred between battles, or even during.
Basically what I'm saying is that for those who might of been playing D&D before 3.0, think about your group. Did you have a tank? A healer? An area-effect caster? A rogue? Chances are you've been playing an MMO long before MMOs were even around.
That is awesome...how did you feel about AQ bugs?
I never went far in AQ just because I happened to be between guilds at the time.
However, the general kinda bugs in AQ never bothered me. It really is just limited to spiderish things.
Driders always gave me nightmares...Lloth too lol.
I played D&D for about 14 years and it eventually got me into WoW and then I went back into D&D. I've enjoyed 4E more than 3E(despite not having my favorite character:necromancy based casters) due to its better balance, being honest about roles in the game, and focus on teamwork.
(Straining his literary muscles mightily)QUOTE]
You should do that more often. That was a brilliant post.
I try to save well thought out posts for forum's like "What's A DM To Do?" or "What's A Player To Do?".