I’ve created this thread as a friendly space for the GBLT role-gaming community. Feel free to talk about your experiences as a queer gamer, issues surrounding queer role-playing, or just hang out with others who identify as gay, bisexual, or transgendered (or open-minded straights)!
I’m a gay woman living in Las Vegas who has been role-playing since her freshman year of college. My own experience with gaming culture in regards to alternative sexualities has been a mixed bag with my online interactions skewing to the negative.
This thread started in reaction to a single post in Astrid’s Parlor in which someone said that they don’t allow homosexuals in their campaigns, save as villains. Statements like this tend to bother me more than someone spamming (though I’ve had that happen during online discussions) because the poster isn’t a fanatical mouth-foamer who has somehow slipped their slip-jacket, but a regular, everyday person who thinks that being queer is evil, ugly, unnatural and/or sick.
I can’t bring myself to care about what the crazies of the world think. What sucks is when there’s someone you’d like to be friends with... if they didn’t hate you.
In a nutshell, that’s my relationship to the ‘role-playing community.’ I’m a geek who loves to spend hours pretending to be a valiant knight slaying orcs, a hobo werewolf wandering the streets of modern Cairo, or a kiss-ass ninja cyborg with lightsaber-chucks. Then I talk to a guy who was kicked out of his role-playing group when he came out. Or my DM wants to go into graphic detail as to what my female paladin is up to with the comely bard. Or, some random jerk explains that gays are only good as bad guys.
I’d like to believe that people like this as a minority in the role-playing community, but it doesn’t always feel that way.
Hey, did you guys know Elminster was bisexual? I kid you not.
Regarding the topic at hand, I am a heterosexual male living in Portugal who couldn't care less what someone's sexual preferences are. My main experience as a "gamer" was role-playing politicians in a political simulation game, and several of the players/mods/admins were gay. In fact, the current "acting" Head Admin is gay.
Everything's worked splendidly in that regard, OOC.
That said, when there was a discussion here in Gleemax about having a "Gay Gamers Forum", I read statements to the effect that homosexuality was always a "mature topic." In fact, it would always be a 21+ topic as long as it involved homosexuality. I found these statements to be rather staggering.
My girlfriend has recently read a study on the impact of genetics on homophobia that may shed light on this matter. According to that study (I'll see if I can find it), homophobic tendencies have an important genetic component. Also, people who are prejudiced against another out-group are usually homophobic as well. Social components, according to that study, were much less important.
That was only one study, of course.
I dont really care what your sexual orientation or gender identity is. I mean, its not like I dont give a crap, but I dont need to know so as to give you special treatment (in either direction).
Likewise, no one in my group judges people based on those decisions. If they did, we wouldnt be friends: I have zero tolerance for that kind of thing. I have a few gay friends, two that game (though not always with us).
I know of the post you're referring to, and its kind of sad, but really you shouldnt let it get to you. That kind of mentality isnt going anywhere anytime soon, but thankfully it seems to be very rare. Even the other things you mention ,such as DMs wanting all the sordid details, do not seem to be common in groups where it isnt warranted by all parties.
Anyway, I play a variety of characters of both genders, and I dont hate you. You can feel free to weigh this post agianst all the "hate" ones that you encounter.
Still I have seen what Hippokrene is talking about. I had a guest player in a D&D campaign a few years back who was the best friend of my regular players. The guest player was gay, and a great roleplayer, but I had another player who never said anything offensive, but was quiet and avoided the gay player. This was a sharp contrast as this was our most vocal and talkative player. It was very disappointing, fortunately, for the rest of the group this was not an issue at all.
That incident really bothered me as it was so disappointing. The guest player was fine and probably didn't notice at all, but I did.
On a side note - the guest player used to be in the military and worked as a translator, he spoke Arabic, but because he was gay they discharged him. He told us he would reenlist in a moment if they changed policy. Sadly, prejudice against gay people is somewhat ingrained institutionally in the US, it is very disappointing.
Community Management may review this thread further.
I've changed the title of this thread, and removed a few instances of language that was offensive - remember that even if you aren't attempting to be offensive yourself, quoting examples is something we want to avoid.
Community Management may review this thread further.
Thanks Kovacs.
Hippokrene, I think this is a great discussion for the community to have, but I do think we (meaning WotC) have to be careful that things that aren't intended to be inflammatory don't come across that way. In this case, the original title of this thread was likely to cause a lot of people to pause, especially if they saw it in the general forum listing (which lists the title of the most recently active thread) without reading the whole thing.
I hope you understand and that this doesn't take any steam out of your discussons, which we value and appreciate.
-Mike
I am a heterosexual male living in Portugal who couldn't care less what someone's sexual preferences are.
Me too. Well, I'm not in Portugal, but instead the Philly 'burbs. ;)
I just don't care what somebody's sexual preference is; I have friends who are bi, friends who are gay, and friends who are straight. I have friends that I don't actually know their preference. And in every case, it doesn't really matter.
I will say, though, that I'm glad you're comfortable with who you are, Hippokrene. I wish more people in this world were. I think it would be a better place that way.
but I've got a modified military take on it:
Dont ask, dont care.
I dont let it be a problem, unless they make it a problem.
IMO, Gay folks should not be treated specially, for good or bad. Special treatment encourages division.
Just as a male can roleplay a female demure or slutty character, orientation shouldnt matter when RP'ing characters. I can play a DitzyBlond, a WeaslelyGuy, SinisterPaladin , VirtuousTheif, or ProfessionalWidow . It would just be another part of backstory, play it as a closet or flaming as the character. Once you demonstrate that you can roleplay more than one type of char, it really shouldnt matter to the group.
But it does raise questions & discussion of rule mechanics pertaining to charming the opposite sex.
I'm not,
but I've got a modified military take on it:
Dont ask, dont care.
I dont let it be a problem, unless they make it a problem.
IMO, Gay folks should not be treated specially, for good or bad. Special treatment encourages division.
I agree with this. orientation just doesnt matter when it comes to gaming. it shouldnt matter anywhere, but especially not in a place where the main goal is to just have fun.
Yes, I would rather the name remain queermax. Gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transsexuals are part of the queer community, but not all of it. The idea is to be as inclusive as possible, which is why it’s my preferred term.
I am aware that some community members may find the term offends them, but some community members may also be offended by the very thread. Queer is not an obscenity, or I wouldn’t be able to flip open my TV guide and see television shows like Queer as Folk or Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. Queer is used frequently when referring to non-heteronormative organizations and activities.
If queermax is problematic, what about Qmax?
As for the use of "Queer", while I personally don't have a problem with it (I am very much of the opinion that it is the individual that decides what words are offensive to them), I can see how some people may be offended by the word queer, thus the pre-emptive work by CS/CM.
Qmax would work. I realize that, as a straight male, my opinion on the matter may not be entirely relevant, but I just wanted to throw that out.
To bring the discussion to something more relevant...
Hippokrene, as a gay woman [1] playing D&D. Have you noticed anything different in the way that you play when compared to hetero folk??
[1] And another question. Why gay woman and not lesbian?? (I am notnotnot trying to be offensive or dense or anything. Is there a particular reason to use gay and not lesbian??)
”No posts were deleted that I can see. I think all they did was edit the title, and possible some of the posts.”
Huh - I now see it was my post that was edited. Okay then.
”As for the use of "Queer", while I personally don't have a problem with it (I am very much of the opinion that it is the individual that decides what words are offensive to them), I can see how some people may be offended by the word queer, thus the pre-emptive work by CS/CM.
Qmax would work. I realize that, as a straight male, my opinion on the matter may not be entirely relevant, but I just wanted to throw that out.”
It seems it’s fine to use the word queer, just not in the title. Yes, someone might decide I’m shoving my sexuality down their throat if they have to read the word ‘queermax’ while scrolling through the board.
”To bring the discussion to something more relevant...
Hippokrene, as a gay woman [1] playing D&D. Have you noticed anything different in the way that you play when compared to hetero folk??”
If there is, I’m not aware of it.
Actually, I do tend to do a queer reading of the text. Most straight (and some bisexual) STs create worlds where everyone is straight, which I tend to reconstruct. I’ve yet to see a straight player do so.
That’s a fairly minor difference, though.
”[1] And another question. Why gay woman and not lesbian?? (I am notnotnot trying to be offensive or dense or anything. Is there a particular reason to use gay and not lesbian??)”
Usually, it’s all the same to me. I might refer to myself as gay, lesbian, queer, or ****. Within certain social context, I might have a preference. For instance, earlier feminist writings did a great deal to de-sexualize the term lesbian and give it more political implications, and there’s a growing trend within the homosexual community (which is something of a misnomer) to use the term gay only for men.
That might actually be an interesting game to play as a PC, too, and it could even be considered a horror game, given that if people found out about the PC's sexual orientation, they'd try to kill him, most likely.
In a more modern context (the game was set in the early 90s, 94-95 at the time), I've role-played a politician who introduced same sex marriage legislation to Parliament. It was my very first character and one of my first actions of note in the game. It didn't pass (with a Conservative government, it was never going to pass...), but it was fun; especially when they had a Motion about the same issue and I had to debate several Tories on discrimination based on sexual orientation.
In the same game, more recently (the current game period is the 80s), I've been told that a few people, due to AIDS breaking out IC, have actually proposed internment camps for homosexuals (in Cabinet). What scares me is if they believe in this sort of thing OOC (hopefully not :|).
) forum. I assumed this thread was an offshoot of that. But it leads back to a question I've often had, with all sincerity and no condescension intended, are there real differences in the way straights and gblts play D&D that require segregated forums or threads? As I mentioned, it seems to me that it just reinforces the divisions that already exist. I feel the same way about Astrid's Parlor, and would ask the same questions of a "christian gamers forum" or similar division. I've had gay women in my group, as well as fairly devout christians, and seen no real difference in the way any of them play compared to the rest of the group.Honestly though, Astrid's Parlor was part of the promotion WotC was doing for Confessions of a Full Time Wizard, or whatever that book was called. Similar forums for other subsets of the gaming community will probably have a much tougher time getting added to the forum list.
that's not really the sort of stuff the forum would be about. I've also been a proponent of a "diversity in gaming" forum. I think there's lots of "meta" topics that need to be discussed. How are gay NPCs portrayed (if at all) in various games? How about in the campaigns produced by various companies? If you expand out the concept to a full "diversity issues" forum, you can get into the same sort of concepts with regard to race and social classes and so on.
We live in a world where "that's so gay" is a perfectly accepted insult. As long as that's an acceptable insult to toss at someone or something, there's issues that should be discussed.
WizO_Unicorn
We live in a world where "that's so gay" is a perfectly accepted insult. As long as that's an acceptable insult to toss at someone or something, there's issues that should be discussed.
Discussed, yes, I'm just not sure that the forum for the D&D game is the place to do it.
Things you brought up, like Gay (or BLT, whatever) NPCs and whatnot can be discussed in the relevant D&D forums as long as the moderators/leads are watchful for brewing flamewars.
To me at least, there's a huge difference between talking about alternate sexuality in the in character context of the game (which i think is fine here), and discussing the real world politics of it (which is best left to web communities intended for those topics).
My girlfriend has recently read a study on the impact of genetics on homophobia that may shed light on this matter. According to that study (I'll see if I can find it), homophobic tendencies have an important genetic component. Also, people who are prejudiced against another out-group are usually homophobic as well. Social components, according to that study, were much less important.
Have you considered the fact that stating that "homophobia is genetic" is just as insulting to some people as saying "homosexuality is genetic" is to others?
Just a thought.
I do not consider quoting scientific studies on the issue to be insulting, and what I did was just that. And since you mention it, there are scientific studies on the impact of genetics on homosexuality as well, and my girlfriend also studied one such study. I didn't reference it before because the topic at hand was homophobia (and, in a vaguer sense, prejudice).
It should be noted that I didn't say prejudiced people had "bad genes", I said the study concluded that prejudice was likely to have genetic origin, and this can be applied to -everyone's genes- (even my own).
Thanks!
I'm a queer/bisexual/anthrosexual male gamer living in Michigan. I actually play with other queer people. My boyfriend and I "converted" a couple of our friends over to playing, and they enjoy it. I've also found more friends who have played after talking about D&D with them. It helps that I live in a college town though.
I'm glad this topic was brought up. I think some people ignore nontraditionally-gendered relationships in a lot of RPG's. It's one of the reasons I've started playing gay and lesbian characters in my play-by-posts.