Hola a toda la comunidad
Podemos hablar en castellano sobre el D&D 4ed. mundos, personajes, aventuras, etc.
si les llama la atención este mensaje por favor contestarlo
atte
Oberon
Dejame decir que en el tiempo que yo llevo portiando y visitando este foro creo que nunca he precenciado a alguien hablando en español (o castellano), es raro pero bueno a la vez.
It's just a thread to speak about 4e in Spanish (or castellano). Not really rude.
It was originally in the FR forums but they moved it here because there wasn't really a place for it to go.
I haven't had a Spanish class since '88, so I am more than a little slow anymore with it. :-)
Donde es la tienda para 4th ed. libros en espanol? No mi busca en San Francisco.
It's just a thread to speak about 4e in Spanish (or castellano). Not really rude.
But why?
Why do we need a "special" thread for people to talk about 4e in Spainish?
And yes, it is rude.
Because if they started doing it in any other thread, everyone would start shouting "English please!" or something more resembling Pulp Fiction? Then it would be rude.
Do we have Germans starting German only threads? Or anybody else from Europe starting their own threads in their regional language?
Ist das eine Aufforderung?
Not bad... Is that a request?
Damn, I miss the sblocks...
Lo siento, pero yo no puedo hablar en espanol.
And... that's about a fourth of my spanish vocab.
Anyway.
Hater? Get off your high horse. This is no more alienating then when some group starts talking about football in front of someone that has zero interest. Which is to say, sure, it's a little bit alienating, but getting your knickers in a twist over it just makes you a whiner.
Do you guys know any online store where i can get D&D books in the spanish?
Do you guys know any online store where i can get D&D books in the spanish?
Off the top of my head, I have no idea.
But, you may wish to scroll to the bottom of the screen and try the Contact Us or Customer Service links. They may have an answer for you.
If you don't know what they're saying, you can just ask someone to translate.
Seriously, hombre, cálmate.
To be clear, do you consider it "rude" everytime someone has a conversation in your presence and you don't understand everything they're talking about?
To be clear, do you consider it "rude" everytime someone has a conversation in your presence and you don't understand everything they're talking about?
I might.
Can't take you seriously then. Getting upset with someone else and calling them rude just because you're ignorant and too proud to ask is unreasonable.
To be clear, do you consider it "rude" everytime someone has a conversation in your presence and you don't understand everything they're talking about?
I might.
Can't take you seriously then. Getting upset with someone else and calling them rude just because you're ignorant and too proud to ask is unreasonable.
No, that is a silly logic to use as follows...
So, when he doesn't understand the first post... he should ask for a translation.
Then when he doesn't understand the first response to the OP...he should ask for a translation.
Then when he doesn't understand the next response to the op or the replies to the responses to the op...he should ask for a translation.
All this asking for translations and waiting for responses just to know what is going on will disallow inclusion into the conversation.
That is an unreasonable tactic to expect of someone if you actually expect to include them in the conversation.
Further "ignorant" does have a meaning of simply not knowing but is very often used to denote a negative connotation and the above use of the word "ignorant" is very much doing that.
Now that is very rude!
If he were so concerned with what they were saying, he can translate their words on dictionary.com
I could care less if people didn't know what they said, it's their thread. You don't have to post in it. This country is not a white man's land, no matter HOW it started.
If he were so concerned with what they were saying, he can translate their words on dictionary.com
I could care less if people didn't know what they said, it's their thread. You don't have to post in it. This country is not a white man's land, no matter HOW it started.
I have seen a lot of instances where translations are not worth a hoot.
Further, it isn't anyone's thread. It is posted in a public forum for public use. It is not a thread posted in a group forum.
Way to go and bring race into it. Wahoo!
There is no official ruling that things must be spokenin English but it doesn't have to be to know that is what this is. Although there may be books somewhere in another language, from what I know they are written in English. All the instructions and directions associated with the forum are written in English.
It is not a requirement of the Terms of Use for threads to be written in English but that doesn't mean that it would not be rude to "speak" in another language in a thread in the OTT. The OTT is a place for everyone to gather and have a little off-topic fun. Making a thread and only using Spanish is exclusionary. If one wants to be exclusionary then one should make a group for such things.
If the poster had gone to the trouble to post some after the OP then we might know what the purpose really is. Perhaps this thread was merely to be checking out if people would wish to start a group. I have no problem with that. If it were a thread for practicing Spanish (such as a person taking a couse who was looking for native speakers to practice with...), that would be ok by me.
But, if someone just wanted to use the area to speak in a language that others do not understand then it is rude because a forum is not like having a conversation with your friend out in public. A forum is for the exchange of ideas and information. Everyone is supposed to be welcome to participate in every discussion. For this reason you should use the common language held by the posters here. That language is English.
010010010010000001100100011011110110111000100111
011101000010000001110011011100000110010101100001
011010110010000001010011011100000110000101101110
011010010111001101101000001000000010100001101111
011100100010000001000011011000010111001101110100
011001010110110001101100011001010110111001101111
001010010010000001110011011011110010000000101110
001011100010111000100000011101010110100001101000
001000000010111000101110001011100010000001111001
01100101011000010110100000101110
010010010010000001100100011011110110111000100111
011101000010000001101011011011100110111101110111
001000000111011101101000011110010010000001101110
011011110110001001101111011001000111100100100000
011001000110100101100100001000000110100101110100
001000000110110001101001011010110110010100100000
011101000110100001101001011100110011111100100000
010010010010000001110100011010000110111101110101
011001110110100001110100001000000110100101110100
001000000111011101101111011101010110110001100100
001000000110001001100101001000000110111101100010
011101100110100101101111011101010111001100101110
000011010000101000001101000010100100100001100001
011100000111000001111001001000000110001001101001
011100100111010001101000011001000110000101111001
001000000110010001110101011001000110010100101110
first line looks similar but what of the rest? :-(
My post got deleted. I hope it didn't say anything bad. All it was supposed to say was 'I don't speak Spanish (or Castillian) so ... uhh ... yeah.' Not spam, a silly li'l joke that I hope wasn't turned into something bad by the stupid online translator. Oh well.
My post got deleted. I hope it didn't say anything bad. All it was supposed to say was 'I don't speak Spanish (or Castillian) so ... uhh ... yeah.' Not spam, a silly li'l joke that I hope wasn't turned into something bad by the stupid online translator. Oh well.
That is what it said when I put it in a binary translator. So, I don't know.
My post got deleted. I hope it didn't say anything bad. All it was supposed to say was 'I don't speak Spanish (or Castillian) so ... uhh ... yeah.' Not spam, a silly li'l joke that I hope wasn't turned into something bad by the stupid online translator. Oh well.
They just deleted a different post and probably did yours at the same time to be safe.
I just copied yours and put it in google search and it sent me to somewhere that my response was posted so I don't even know what it says. I went to the translator to figure that out afterward. Maybe I had better check to see what it says. :-(
Mine came from a thread about someone's birthday and translates as follows:
I don't know why nobody did it like this? I thought it would be obvious.
Happy birthday dude.
The "i don't know" bits are similar and that is probably why the google search (using the copied binary text rather than a translator) gave a link to it.
Hmm. Interesting. If they were here to delete a reported post, they may have thought mine was spam or something. Or maybe a disguised insult. It wasn't, but oh well. It didn't exactly add anything and was an admittedly lame as hell joke. :D
Sorry you think I am unreasonable.
"Think"? Nah, I'm arrogant enough to say I know you're being unreasonable.
Looks like another thread got hijacked by the White man
Gracias a Dios por traductores de español
Sí, son útiles.
Gracias a Dios por traductores de español
Thanks to God for ??? of Spanish?
Como se dice "traductores" en engles?
Gracias a Dios por traductores de español
Thanks to God for ??? of Spanish?Como se dice "traductores" en engles?
translators
Actually we're supposed to type in English. Remember a while back when that French guy was posting thread in French?
Actually we're supposed to type in English. Remember a while back when that French guy was posting thread in French?
No, but I will take your word for it.
So, in other words, EE is running with a line of nonsense when he is calling The_Hated unreasonable for expecting others to post in English.
I understand perfectly now.
Well it makes sense to me that D&D just shouldnt be for English speaking people so I dont see the website should be just for English speaking people either. Its the world wide web after all.
Well it makes sense to me that D&D just shouldnt be for English speaking people so I dont see the website should be just for English speaking people either. Its the world wide web after all.
But the site is in English.
But the site is in English.
Right the Site itself is in English. But still whats wrong with having 1 tread devoted to Spainish speaking people or Geraman or Whatever else?
But the site is in English.
Right the Site itself is in English. But still whats wrong with having 1 tread devoted to Spainish speaking people or Geraman or Whatever else?
Because the forum is for everyone to exchange ideas. Since the site is in English it is expected that those using the site will be able to communicate in English. If one wishes to have a thread dedicated to a different language and thus exclude others it should be located in a group rather than out in the OTT. However, I did state that it would be ok for such things as recruiting posters for such a group or perhaps for posters taking courses to use it as conversation practice. That last might be especially true if one is using a reading program developed for blind peope although I donot know how well those work with other languages.
The point is that it is a site for everyone and there is no need to exclude posters from topics by deliberately choosing a language that many cannot use. That should be left to groups.
The point is that it is a site for everyone and there is no need to exclude posters from topics by deliberately choosing a language that many cannot use. That should be left to groups.
Right the GROUPS! I forgot about that. That probably would be a better fit. still i see no harm in a spainish thread or whatever, besides we've all ruined it now by posting in english. I dont think the OP had all this in mind at all.
The point is that it is a site for everyone and there is no need to exclude posters from topics by deliberately choosing a language that many cannot use. That should be left to groups.
Right the GROUPS! I forgot about that. That probably would be a better fit. still i see no harm in a spainish thread or whatever, besides we've all ruined it now by posting in english. I dont think the OP had all this in mind at all.
I have no idea what the OP had in mind. This was originally posted in the Forgotten Realms forums although it has nothing to do with the Forgotten Realms. So, other than looking for Spanish speakers, we really don't know. The OP is still the only post of the thread starter. However, (s)he may just think that the thread was deleted rather than moved because moved threads no longer leave a re-direct link. They just disappear from the originalforum.
Thank goodness for Spanish translators, to be precise.
Piggles is correct. I vaguely recollect some posts from said Frenchy being removed because they were written in French. The thing is, that guy only wrote in French and spammed the hell out of the place. Plus, his threads were not like this one. This one sort of has a purpose and I don't have any sort of problem with it. A Group would be the best thing for something like this, but it's no big deal. And threads can be used to spread info about a Group to those that may not know about it. All said, I don't see any sort of issue here. Except for all of us English speakers, that is. Then again, it's the Tavern so ... :P
Alrighty unofficial OTT guide I see your point.
Let's slow down there, piggy. I'm not anything - official or not. I'm just another turd in the bowl waitin' to be flushed with the rest of ya'.
Sorry you think I am unreasonable.
"Think"? Nah, I'm arrogant enough to say I know you're being unreasonable.Heh.
If it makes you feel good to think so, then be my guest.
But there is absolutely no way that you know anything about me at all.
If you want this to turn personal, then keep it up.
Remember, it was you who started the insults and smart assness...
Because you basically ruined this thread with your nonsensical "hey, that's rude!!! don't speak in your native language." What kind of crap is that? I've got to go to class soon......
Another thing: We are in America. There's the United States of America, which belongs to the North American continent, there's Central America, and South America. Since you decided to solely bring up "America", I felt it was necessary to point out the obvious to you.
WotC is based in Renton, WA. In the USA. Since it is most assuredly an American company, some take that to mean that the boards are then also American. We've got members from all over the place, though, and that's something we all need to keep in mind. The preference seems to be English for the site (as most WotC customers seem to speak it, that makes sense) but beyond the listed example of a French spam artist, as far as I know there's no official position.
If language is used to disguise insults or whatever, it becomes a CoC violation of the type 'masking' as well as whatever the original problem is. Other than that, I have no idea when language could be an official issue.
Thank you, Z_B. At least someone else gets the picture. English may be the primary language in our country, but it's not the official language... we don't have one. Basically telling someone else to not use their own language is discrimination, even though they're posting messages on a board dominated by English speakers.
Because the forum is for everyone to exchange ideas.
No. It's apparently only for people who speak english to exchange ideas.
Incorrect. It's for everyone to exchange ideas - preferably in English. No requirement that I'm aware of at all.
Because the forum is for everyone to exchange ideas.
No. It's apparently only for people who speak english to exchange ideas.
But, to be more correct, for ideas to be exchanged there must be communication and for the exchange to occur others must communicate with a common language. That common language is English. It is the common language and that has a whole heck of a lot to do with not only how prominent it is in the U.S.A but because the British Empire dominated trade throughout the world for a very long period of time.
Thank you, Z_B. At least someone else gets the picture. English may be the primary language in our country, but it's not the official language... we don't have one. Basically telling someone else to not use their own language is discrimination, even though they're posting messages on a board dominated by English speakers.
I get the picture. You do not.
No, it is not discrimination.
The point is that this is a forum owned by a company.
For starters, using one language makes things easier on moderation to keep track of. Without doing so, there are a number of profane words and such that could be in sigs and posts for a while before being detected. If a moderator has to do a translation just to figure out whether or not something should be edited then the job has been made more difficult than it needs to be. That in and of itself is reason enough to limit the language to one and in this case that would be English.
Further, simply allowing varying language threads in the open would also have a habit of spilling over. It is inevitable. So, threads in the OTT would become threads and posts in Fourth Edition General and then in Q&A threads and forums and eventually into CS. To be specific about the problem with this, when things are translated information is often lost. In forums where rules discussions are going on this could cause them to break down. It could necessitate CS tryingt o answer some questions that are emailed and Spanish and then other questions that are emailed in German. And on and on.
So, there is a legitimate business reason to do so. It is too much trouble for the company to try and appease everyone. Here is the definition of discrimination
unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice
There is no unfair treatment in the expectation that posters will stick to the common language that the WotC books are printed in and is spoken by the overwhelming majority of posters in a WotC forum where everyone is expected to be allowed to contribute to each and every conversation that is not part of a group.
But, all this started because a statement was made that having a conversation here in a language that is not the common language of the forum is rude. And to be frank, it is rude. Why? These are not conversations that you are having with your friends at a foodcourt in a mall. These are written conversations in a public format designed for everyone to participate in any and every conversation. If you are having a conversation while having lunch in the public foodcourt with your friends and someone just walks up to your table and sits down and then joins the conversation that person has interrupted a conversation you were having even though it is in the public arena. The forums are not merely conversations in the public arena they are for everyone to participate. If you (general form) choose to use a language that many if not most do not know then you are excluding them. That is rude.
But, as I stated earlier, there are exceptions. Recruiting for a group is one. Another possible one is for a person learning the language to practice with native speakers perhaps even using an audible program such as blind people would use. Such a thread may work best in a group but placing in a different forum such as the OTT would increase traffic. But, we will never know whether or not the thread starter had any further plans because after starting this thread in the FR forums the poster nver posted in it again.
Then it still is for everyone who speaks English to exchange ideas. Not everyone speaks English. Therefore, it isn't for everyone to exchange ideas. I understand what you're saying, and you're making good points, but I'm just saying it can't be for everyone if exclude people who speak other languages (which, honestly, I'm fine with).
Because the forum is for everyone to exchange ideas.
No. It's apparently only for people who speak english to exchange ideas.
But, to be more correct, for ideas to be exchanged there must be communication and for the exchange to occur others must communicate with a common language. That common language is English. It is the common language and that has a whole heck of a lot to do with not only how prominent it is in the U.S.A but because the British Empire dominated trade throughout the world for a very long period of time.
Thank you, Z_B. At least someone else gets the picture. English may be the primary language in our country, but it's not the official language... we don't have one. Basically telling someone else to not use their own language is discrimination, even though they're posting messages on a board dominated by English speakers.
I get the picture. You do not.
No, it is not discrimination.
The point is that this is a forum owned by a company.
For starters, using one language makes things easier on moderation to keep track of. Without doing so, there are a number of profane words and such that could be in sigs and posts for a while before being detected. If a moderator has to do a translation just to figure out whether or not something should be edited then the job has been made more difficult than it needs to be. That in and of itself is reason enough to limit the language to one and in this case that would be English.
Further, simply allowing varying language threads in the open would also have a habit of spilling over. It is inevitable. So, threads in the OTT would become threads and posts in Fourth Edition General and then in Q&A threads and forums and eventually into CS. To be specific about the problem with this, when things are translated information is often lost. In forums where rules discussions are going on this could cause them to break down. It could necessitate CS tryingt o answer some questions that are emailed and Spanish and then other questions that are emailed in German. And on and on.
So, there is a legitimate business reason to do so. It is too much trouble for the company to try and appease everyone. Here is the definition of discrimination
unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice
There is no unfair treatment in the expectation that posters will stick to the common language that the WotC books are printed in and is spoken by the overwhelming majority of posters in a WotC forum where everyone is expected to be allowed to contribute to each and every conversation that is not part of a group.
But, all this started because a statement was made that having a conversation here in a language that is not the common language of the forum is rude. And to be frank, it is rude. Why? These are not conversations that you are having with your friends at a foodcourt in a mall. These are written conversations in a public format designed for everyone to participate in any and every conversation. If you are having a conversation while having lunch in the public foodcourt with your friends and someone just walks up to your table and sits down and then joins the conversation that person has interrupted a conversation you were having even though it is in the public arena. The forums are not merely conversations in the public arena they are for everyone to participate. If you (general form) choose to use a language that many if not most do not know then you are excluding them. That is rude.
But, as I stated earlier, there are exceptions. Recruiting for a group is one. Another possible one is for a person learning the language to practice with native speakers perhaps even using an audible program such as blind people would use. Such a thread may work best in a group but placing in a different forum such as the OTT would increase traffic. But, we will never know whether or not the thread starter had any further plans because after starting this thread in the FR forums the poster nver posted in it again.
It's discrimination. You're juggling your words with unnecessary verbiage in order to disprove my point, but it has no effect whatsoever. In order to simplify it for you, I'll have to make a list.
1. Discrimination can be behavior meant to target another group, or to act irrational towards a certain race or ethnicity.
2. Here's the context in which we are arguing the meaning of discrimination- 3 a : the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually b : prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment
3. What The_Hated did was perceive the actions of the Latino 4th edition players as rude. I have the feeling that he did it only to spite them, and to instigate the whole controversy that we're now having.
4. Their choice to post in Spanish is a right given to them, even if the public messageboard is owned by a private establishment.
5. Their intentions were never really found out, as the big debate has either caused them to not want to post, or they just couldn't find the thread again.
6. Who really cares if we can't understand them? This country is so diverse that the racial barriers we've experienced in the past are starting to thin away.
7. I can infer from your post that you're attacking people personally, rather than the arguments they make. Please be careful when posting.
Then it still is for everyone who speaks English to exchange ideas. Not everyone speaks English. Therefore, it isn't for everyone to exchange ideas. I understand what you're saying, and you're making good points, but I'm just saying it can't be for everyone if exclude people who speak other languages (which, honestly, I'm fine with).
But, it doesn't exclude "people who speak other languages". It is a subset of that. That subset is "people who speak other languages and do not speak English" Further, there should be qualifications on "everybody" as it is rarely the case where that absolutes such as everybody are used without some sort of limitations being applied. The first limitation (which I had in mind when speaking of "everybody") is to posters on this board. When discussing posters on this board we are not discussing tribal nomads in the most desolate parts of Mongolia who have never seen a TV much less a computer and have never heard a word of English. Once that limitation is applied (posters on this board), the number who do not speak English becomes statistically negligible and can be considered zero. Thus, it applies to "everybody".
Then it still is for everyone who speaks English to exchange ideas. Not everyone speaks English. Therefore, it isn't for everyone to exchange ideas. I understand what you're saying, and you're making good points, but I'm just saying it can't be for everyone if exclude people who speak other languages (which, honestly, I'm fine with).
But, it doesn't exclude "people who speak other languages". It is a subset of that. That subset is "people who speak other languages and do not speak English" Further, there should be qualifications on "everybody" as it is rarely the case where that absolutes such as everybody are used without some sort of limitations being applied. The first limitation (which I had in mind when speaking of "everybody") is to posters on this board. When discussing posters on this board we are not discussing tribal nomads in the most desolate parts of Mongolia who have never seen a TV much less a computer and have never heard a word of English. Once that limitation is applied (posters on this board), the number who do not speak English becomes statistically negligible and can be considered zero. Thus, it applies to "everybody".
Your use of "everybody" would discriminately target the Latino speakers, and would be considered a faux pas. Even if the percentage of other non-english speaking posters on this board would be very small, I'm sure that WOTC will eventually have to acknowledge expanding their operations so that a problem like this doesn't happen.
Quote tags are screwing up...
Because the forum is for everyone to exchange ideas.
No. It's apparently only for people who speak english to exchange ideas.
But, to be more correct, for ideas to be exchanged there must be communication and for the exchange to occur others must communicate with a common language. That common language is English. It is the common language and that has a whole heck of a lot to do with not only how prominent it is in the U.S.A but because the British Empire dominated trade throughout the world for a very long period of time.
Thank you, Z_B. At least someone else gets the picture. English may be the primary language in our country, but it's not the official language... we don't have one. Basically telling someone else to not use their own language is discrimination, even though they're posting messages on a board dominated by English speakers.
I get the picture. You do not.
No, it is not discrimination.
The point is that this is a forum owned by a company.
For starters, using one language makes things easier on moderation to keep track of. Without doing so, there are a number of profane words and such that could be in sigs and posts for a while before being detected. If a moderator has to do a translation just to figure out whether or not something should be edited then the job has been made more difficult than it needs to be. That in and of itself is reason enough to limit the language to one and in this case that would be English.
Further, simply allowing varying language threads in the open would also have a habit of spilling over. It is inevitable. So, threads in the OTT would become threads and posts in Fourth Edition General and then in Q&A threads and forums and eventually into CS. To be specific about the problem with this, when things are translated information is often lost. In forums where rules discussions are going on this could cause them to break down. It could necessitate CS tryingt o answer some questions that are emailed and Spanish and then other questions that are emailed in German. And on and on.
So, there is a legitimate business reason to do so. It is too much trouble for the company to try and appease everyone. Here is the definition of discrimination
unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice
There is no unfair treatment in the expectation that posters will stick to the common language that the WotC books are printed in and is spoken by the overwhelming majority of posters in a WotC forum where everyone is expected to be allowed to contribute to each and every conversation that is not part of a group.
But, all this started because a statement was made that having a conversation here in a language that is not the common language of the forum is rude. And to be frank, it is rude. Why? These are not conversations that you are having with your friends at a foodcourt in a mall. These are written conversations in a public format designed for everyone to participate in any and every conversation. If you are having a conversation while having lunch in the public foodcourt with your friends and someone just walks up to your table and sits down and then joins the conversation that person has interrupted a conversation you were having even though it is in the public arena. The forums are not merely conversations in the public arena they are for everyone to participate. If you (general form) choose to use a language that many if not most do not know then you are excluding them. That is rude.
But, as I stated earlier, there are exceptions. Recruiting for a group is one. Another possible one is for a person learning the language to practice with native speakers perhaps even using an audible program such as blind people would use. Such a thread may work best in a group but placing in a different forum such as the OTT would increase traffic. But, we will never know whether or not the thread starter had any further plans because after starting this thread in the FR forums the poster nver posted in it again.
start OD's reply:
It's discrimination. You're juggling your words in order to prove the point, but it has no effect whatsoever. In order to simplify it for you, I'll have to make a list.
1. Discrimination can be behavior meant to target another group, or to act irrational towards a certain race or ethnicity.
2. Here's the context in which we are arguing the meaning of discrimination- 3 a : the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually b : prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment
3. What The_Hated did was perceive the actions of the Latino 4th edition players as rude. I have the feeling that he did it only to spite them, and to instigate the whole controversy that we're now having.
4. Their choice to post in Spanish is a right given to them, even if the public messageboard is owned by a private establishment.
5. Their intentions were never really found out, as the big debate has either caused them to not want to post, or they just couldn't find the thread again.
6. Who really cares if we can't understand them? This country is so diverse that the racial barriers we've experienced in the past are starting to thin away.
End OD's reply.
I am juggling nothing. I need no smart ass list for you to make. Allow me to demonstrate.
#1 above in no way changes what I stated.
#2 above in no way changes what I stated.
#3 He correctly perceived their actions as rude as I demonstrated and you refused to address. Further, you are jumping to conclusions about The_Hated rather than address the merits laid out for it being rude.
#4. No, it is not a right given to them. You have no idea what you are talking about. WotC may or may not allow it at their discretion because the forum is their property.
#5 I am aware that their intentions were never found out. I explicitly stated so. This still does not address the points regarding rudeness.
#6 That is a huge straw man and has nothing to do with the discussion. Each and every thread that is not a part of a group forum is for everyone to join in. Choosing to have a conversation in a language that excludes others in a situation designed to include everyone is rude.
Still, none of the points that show it is being rude have been addressed.
I am juggling nothing. I need no smart ass list for you to make. Allow me to demonstrate.
#1 above in no way changes what I stated.
#2 above in no way changes what I stated.
#3 He correctly perceived their actions as rude as I demonstrated and you refused to address. Further, you are jumping to conclusions about The_Hated rather than address the merits laid out for it being rude.
#4. No, it is not a right given to them. You have no idea what you are talking about. WotC may or may not allow it at their discretion because the forum is their property.
#5 I am aware that their intentions were never found out. I explicitly stated so. This still does not address the points regarding rudeness.
#6 That is a huge straw man and has nothing to do with the discussion. Each and every thread that is not a part of a group forum is for everyone to join in. Choosing to have a conversation in a language that excludes others in a situation designed to include everyone is rude.
Still, none of the points that show it is being rude have been addressed.
I can't take your posts seriously, because no matter how many times I've proved something... you are there to object to anything I say. I made a list in order to break apart your arguments, simply because any person could have missed your point. You haven't really made anything clear, except that this site is the intellectual property of WOTC. Bravo, good job. Your insistence in supporting the opinion that the Latino posters on this board were being rude, despite the overwhelming majority of English speakers we have here that don't have a problem with it seems to be the other main issue.
You can view it as rude, but I view it as close-mindedness. You like to call my list a smartass move, but here I continue to not make personal attacks simply because that would defeat any argument I have presented before you. It seems to me that The_Hated antagonized others into actually caring about something that is so menial, that I've wondered why you've taken this so seriously.
I do have an idea of what I'm talking about, and your SN sounds familiar. If only I could recall a previous thread about DM's cheating....
But it is American land.
White has nothing to do with it.
American has nothing to do with it either, considering there is no official language in this country. English, in other words, is not the American language. There is no American language.
Also, I find your remarks racist and dismissive.
Big deal. Your remarks are petty, unnecessary, and obstructive.
Seriously, you went out of your way and chose to make this a larger issue than it is.
I am juggling nothing. I need no smart ass list for you to make. Allow me to demonstrate.
#1 above in no way changes what I stated.
#2 above in no way changes what I stated.
#3 He correctly perceived their actions as rude as I demonstrated and you refused to address. Further, you are jumping to conclusions about The_Hated rather than address the merits laid out for it being rude.
#4. No, it is not a right given to them. You have no idea what you are talking about. WotC may or may not allow it at their discretion because the forum is their property.
#5 I am aware that their intentions were never found out. I explicitly stated so. This still does not address the points regarding rudeness.
#6 That is a huge straw man and has nothing to do with the discussion. Each and every thread that is not a part of a group forum is for everyone to join in. Choosing to have a conversation in a language that excludes others in a situation designed to include everyone is rude.
Still, none of the points that show it is being rude have been addressed.
I can't take your posts seriously, because no matter how many times I've proved something... you are there to object to anything I say. I made a list in order to break apart your arguments, simply because any person could have missed your point. You haven't really made anything clear, except that this site is the intellectual property of WOTC. Bravo, good job. Your insistence in supporting the opinion that the Latino posters on this board were being rude, despite the overwhelming majority of English speakers we have here that don't have a problem with it seems to be the other main issue.
You can view it as rude, but I view it as close-mindedness. You like to call my list a smartass move, but here I continue to not make personal attacks simply because that would defeat any argument I have presented before you. It seems to me that The_Hated antagonized others into actually caring about something that is so menial, that I've wondered why you've taken this so seriously.
I do have an idea of what I'm talking about, and your SN sounds familiar. If only I could recall a previous thread about DM's cheating....
It is not my problem that you fail to follow suimple logic.
The point is that your list didn't prove anything or come remotely close to it. It did not address the points that I made. There is nothing close minded about it. it is simpy a statement about what leads to better communication in a format designed for communication: use of one language. Using a language that others do not use does exclude them. That is not being close minded those are simply statements of facts that have not been addressed.
What is SN? (Maybe I am stupid not to know...)
I have over 4500 posts so you may have seen them before but I don't think I have ever posted in a thread about DMs cheating so I do not know what you are talking about there.
@ October Darkness
You stated that they have a right to post in whatever language they chose.
I stated that they have no such right because the forums are the property of WotC. Free Speech denies the government the ability to restrict speech. There is nothing to deny WotC the ability to restrict the use of their site. Therefore, the posters have no "right" to post in any language they want. WotC can restrict the languages used in its forums if they so choose. To repeat, there is no "right" here.
It is not my problem that you fail to follow suimple logic.
The point is that your list didn't prove anything or come remotely close to it. It did not address the points that I made. There is nothing close minded about it. it is simpy a statement about what leads to better communication in a format designed for communication: use of one language. Using a language that others do not use does exclude them. That is not being close minded those are simply statements of facts that have not been addressed.
What is SN? (Maybe I am stupid not to know...)
I have over 4500 posts so you may have seen them before but I don't think I have ever posted in a thread about DMs cheating so I do not know what you are talking about there.
No, I can understand what you're saying but I don't agree with it. Let me re-summarize your points for the umpteenth time.
1. WOTC owns this board and since it's a private corporation, they can choose to enact whatever policies they wish. If that happens to exclude any conversation in a language other than English, then so be it.
2. According to you, it's rude to post in another language because it excludes the majority of the board.
3. WOTC doesn't have the manpower to be able to translate, so therefore they shouldn't have to deal with posters talking in other languages, simply because it can stretch out the moderating staff on this board.
Like I've said, they have a right to post here, in their own language. It's not rude to speak in their language, just because the majority of the people in the thread couldn't infer as to what their intentions were. If we were seeing them spamming constantly in all of the forums, then it could have become a problem, but they haven't done so. The member that was posting in French was spamming the board, which caused the moderating team to take action. That's an entirely different matter simply because the Latino posters haven't had much involvement within this "community".
I don't think there is a Spanish forum for Latino 4th edition players, even though I've looked for one online.
I think my favorite part of the argument that its "rude" to talk in a language other people don't understand is that it means everytime two (or more) experts talk about their field of interest in a public place that they're being "rude".
Actually heck, everytime people start talking math above an algebra or trig level a huge swath of people get left behind. Guess they're being "rude" too.
@ October Darkness
You stated that they have a right to post in whatever language they chose.
I stated that they have no such right because the forums are the property of WotC. Free Speech denies the government the ability to restrict speech. There is nothing to deny WotC the ability to restrict the use of their site. Therefore, the posters have no "right" to post in any language they want. WotC can restrict the languages used in its forums if they so choose. To repeat, there is no "right" here.
Which they haven't done so, otherwise this thread would have been closed. If they have looked over this thread, and didn't find any problems, then every point you have made would be considered moot. In some ways, we exclude each other from discussions all the time. If I were to use Ebonics in all of my posts, that would exclude the rest that are unfamiliar with certain uses of slang. It doesn't matter if it's a dialect of English, it's so differentiated that you wouldn't know what badunkadunk means unless you looked it up online, or saw a Dave Chapelle episode.
For your convenience, SN = screen name
It is not my problem that you fail to follow suimple logic.
The point is that your list didn't prove anything or come remotely close to it. It did not address the points that I made. There is nothing close minded about it. it is simpy a statement about what leads to better communication in a format designed for communication: use of one language. Using a language that others do not use does exclude them. That is not being close minded those are simply statements of facts that have not been addressed.
What is SN? (Maybe I am stupid not to know...)
I have over 4500 posts so you may have seen them before but I don't think I have ever posted in a thread about DMs cheating so I do not know what you are talking about there.
No, I can understand what you're saying but I don't agree with it. Let me re-summarize your points for the umpteenth time.
1. WOTC owns this board and since it's a private corporation, they can choose to enact whatever policies they wish. If that happens to exclude any conversation in a language other than English, then so be it.
2. According to you, it's rude to post in another language because it excludes the majority of the board.
3. WOTC doesn't have the manpower to be able to translate, so therefore they shouldn't have to deal with posters talking in other languages, simply because it can stretch out the moderating staff on this board.
Like I've said, they have a right to post here, in their own language. It's not rude to speak in their language, just because the majority of the people in the thread couldn't infer as to what their intentions were. If we were seeing them spamming constantly in all of the forums, then it could have become a problem, but they haven't done so. The member that was posting in French was spamming the board, which caused the moderating team to take action. That's an entirely different matter simply because the Latino posters haven't had much involvement within this "community".
I don't think there is a Spanish forum for Latino 4th edition players, even though I've looked for one online.
First, no, they have no right to post in their own language. If theyhad a right to do so then WotC would not have a right to prevent them from doing so. Your logic fails completely on this count.
Second it is rude to do so because the forum is not intended for private or exclusionary conversations. It does not matter whether or not it is spamming. it excludes those who may wish to be in the conversation. It does not matter how many other conversations there are out there for English posters to take part in. Private and exclusionary conversations are for private groups.
Comparing this to the French spammer with regard to rudeness is a strawman. Spam is a CoC violation whether or not it is in French or Spanish. This is rude because it is in an exclusionary language in a forum where all the threads are supposed to be open to everyone. Choosing to not make it open to everyone by using a different language is exclusionary and therefore rude because it is in a forum where there is not supposed to be exclusion.
The no fourth edition Spanish forum is another strawman. If anyone wants a forum for 4th edition players who speak Spanish or any other language all that one has to do is to create a group. Groups have forums. So, then you can then create a thread inviting others to join the group or you can for instance go to the welcome thread here and in other forums of WotC and post a link to the group and invite them to join.
@ October Darkness
You stated that they have a right to post in whatever language they chose.
I stated that they have no such right because the forums are the property of WotC. Free Speech denies the government the ability to restrict speech. There is nothing to deny WotC the ability to restrict the use of their site. Therefore, the posters have no "right" to post in any language they want. WotC can restrict the languages used in its forums if they so choose. To repeat, there is no "right" here.
Which they haven't done so, otherwise this thread would have been closed. If they have looked over this thread, and didn't find any problems, then every point you have made would be considered moot. In some ways, we exclude each other from discussions all the time. If I were to use Ebonics in all of my posts, that would exclude the rest that are unfamiliar with certain uses of slang. It doesn't matter if it's a dialect of English, it's so differentiated that you wouldn't know what badunkadunk means unless you looked it up online, or saw a Dave Chapelle episode.
For your convenience, SN = screen name
You are again attacking a strawman. you stated that they have a right to post in any language. I stated they have no right. The fact that WotC has chosen not to exercise their right has no bearing on whether or not they have that right. you made the statement and I challenged it. There is nothing moot to my challenge without you removing your statement in its entirety, which you have not.
Jason in the Games Support Team from Customer Service states that there's no rule against posting in another language, but if the thread were to be too disruptive, then yes it can be shut down.
That's the ruling from an official WOTC employee. It's not the language being spoken that is disruptive, it's ourselves that's making this a bigger problem than it should be.
Jason in the Games Support Team from Customer Service states that there's no rule against posting in another language, but if the thread were to be too disruptive, then yes it can be shut down.
That's the ruling from an official WOTC employee. It's not the language being spoken that is disruptive, it's ourselves that's making this a bigger problem than it should be.
So, do you agree that they have no "right" to post in any language they want? Being allowed to does not constitute a right to do so.
Second, this has no bearing on it being or not being rude.
Jason in the Games Support Team from Customer Service states that there's no rule against posting in another language, but if the thread were to be too disruptive, then yes it can be shut down.
That's the ruling from an official WOTC employee. It's not the language being spoken that is disruptive, it's ourselves that's making this a bigger problem than it should be.
So, do you agree that they have no "right" to post in any language they want? Being allowed to does not constitute a right to do so.
Second, this has no bearing on it being or not being rude.
Let me explain it for you one more time. They can post in their native language, only if it doesn't disrupt the harmony of the board, which it doesn't. That was what I was told from Jason of Customer Service. I'm sure if the same Latino members were to take it to court, they would win. It's discriminating to attempt to stop someone from posting in another language, simply because it could be deemed "rude".
Your main argument has been that it's "rude", however many times logical people have disagreed with you. You've been trying to point it out to me most of all, that it's WOTC intellectual property, and that has been your supporting point only because you thought the Latino members were once again, "being rude".
The argument here you've presented isn't whether or not WOTC will take action, whether they have a right to post, but if it's indecent behavior to post in something that can exclude others from posting in that thread. The main rebuttal to that is simply that it's not. We have a whole crapload of threads to post in, and it hasn't really hurt anyone to let our Latino members go about their business.
The only person using strawmans is you. You make up points in your own head to easily argue against them, and it's annoying.
I’ve removed content from this thread because baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg...
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
October Darkness stated that they have a right to post in any language they wish. I challenged that and October Darkness continued to argue that they have a right to post in any language that they wish. Try asking OD why he is arguing it rather than listening to reason.
There is no projecting of something sinister. It is simply stating the truth: it is rude because it prohibits some people from joining conversations that are supposed to be meant for everyone. Conversations not meant for everyone belong in groups. It really is that simple.
It would be rude if I were to have lunch with a group of people, and they spoke in another language so I couldn't talk with them. That's taking into a personal account of where my access to communicating with other people is limited. It's not rude in this board because we have so many threads in English, that our board shouldn't be bothered by ONE thread. If it's bothering you, Rumple, tough luck. I've listened to your logic, and I told you I disagree with you.
Jason in the Games Support Team from Customer Service states that there's no rule against posting in another language, but if the thread were to be too disruptive, then yes it can be shut down.
That's the ruling from an official WOTC employee. It's not the language being spoken that is disruptive, it's ourselves that's making this a bigger problem than it should be.
So, do you agree that they have no "right" to post in any language they want? Being allowed to does not constitute a right to do so.
Second, this has no bearing on it being or not being rude.
Let me explain it for you one more time. They can post in their native language, only if it doesn't disrupt the harmony of the board, which it doesn't. That was what I was told from Jason of Customer Service. I'm sure if the same Latino members were to take it to court, they would win. It's discriminating to attempt to stop someone from posting in another language, simply because it could be deemed "rude".
Your main argument has been that it's "rude", however many times logical people have disagreed with you. You've been trying to point it out to me most of all, that it's WOTC intellectual property, and that has been your supporting point only because you thought the Latino members were once again, "being rude".
The argument here you've presented isn't whether or not WOTC will take action, whether they have a right to post, but if it's indecent behavior to post in something that can exclude others from posting in that thread. The main rebuttal to that is simply that it's not. We have a whole crapload of threads to post in, and it hasn't really hurt anyone to let our Latino members go about their business.
The only person using strawmans is you. You make up points in your own head to easily argue against them, and it's annoying.
I am not making up arguments in my head. I am countering those that you make.
You are making so many strawmen that it appears to be intentional. Take this part:
"Your main argument has been that it's "rude", however many times logical people have disagreed with you. You've been trying to point it out to me most of all, that it's WOTC intellectual property, and that has been your supporting point only because you thought the Latino members were once again, "being rude"."
First, for the huge strawman.
You are connecting the rude arguments with those of the argument about "right" to post in any language they choose. You argued that the posters had a "right" to post in their native language and I argued that they had no such right because WotC has the right to determine what goes in their forums. This has explicitly been a separate argument from the rudeness argument so do not try to post them together in that strawman fashion.
Second, I keep making arguments as to why it is rude and they have not been addressed. When those solid arguments are not addressed, they stand. Simply disagreeing by saying "no it isn't" does not invalidate points being made.
My argument for the rudeness has been that the forum is for threads that allow everyone to participate. Languages other than Engligh exclude people from participating in a thread. Other threads in English do not change the fact that English only speakers are excluded from those threads that do not use English. They exclude people in a place that people go to post which is not supposed to be exclusionary. Therefore it is rude. That type of exclusion is for groups not the public forums. This argument has not been addressed.
Could it be that you're making a big leap in assuming that the function of the forums is to have a place for threads where everyone can participate in all discussions? Is there a credo somewhere on this site where WotC makes the claim that the purpose here is to guarantee that every discussion can be entertained by every forum member?
Further, I don't think that the preference of WotC for speaking and typing in English should be used to mean that english-speaking threads should be exempt from your very own criticism. Obviously, people that don't speak english can't participate in 99.999999999% of the threads on this forum. By your own defintion, this is alienating and rude. It is unreasonable to think that only english-speaking people play the game, or that only english-speaking people should be able to discuss the game on these forums. I doubt WotC would hold either of those views as well. Likewise, I doubt that they are trying to alienate anyone by using English exclusively for their site. Even further, I doubt that they are adverse to people posting in another language, and the statement provided by October_Darkness would back that up.
I also don't think that WotC considers it rude for a spanish-speaking person to post in spanish. How can they? They have provided a place, accessible by anyone, for people to come together and discuss their products. Not all D&D players speak english but we can hardly hold that against them. Wouldn't it be rude to take someone's money and then deny them a service you provide to all other consumers of your product, simply because they don't speak english?
In the same way WotC cannot be considered rude by have an english-speaking website, a forum member cannot be considered rude for simply posting a thread in spanish.
Basically, if WotC doesn't think its rude on their own forums, who are you to claim that it is? You and the_Hated are the only ones that have voiced a complaint. A WizO has been here and hasn't deleted or edited the OP, which is puzzling to me if the OP is as discriminatory, alienating, and rude as you say it is.
Would it belong better in a dedicated forum? Yeah, sure. Does that mean that when a non-english thread shows up every fifteen hundred years we should complain that it's rude and alienating? Well, for reasonable people, the answer is no.
I am not making up arguments in my head. I am countering those that you make.
You are making so many strawmen that it appears to be intentional. Take this part:
"Your main argument has been that it's "rude", however many times logical people have disagreed with you. You've been trying to point it out to me most of all, that it's WOTC intellectual property, and that has been your supporting point only because you thought the Latino members were once again, "being rude"."
First, for the huge strawman.
You are connecting the rude arguments with those of the argument about "right" to post in any language they choose. You argued that the posters had a "right" to post in their native language and I argued that they had no such right because WotC has the right to determine what goes in their forums. This has explicitly been a separate argument from the rudeness argument so do not try to post them together in that strawman fashion.
Second, I keep making arguments as to why it is rude and they have not been addressed. When those solid arguments are not addressed, they stand. Simply disagreeing by saying "no it isn't" does not invalidate points being made.
My argument for the rudeness has been that the forum is for threads that allow everyone to participate. Languages other than Engligh exclude people from participating in a thread. Other threads in English do not change the fact that English only speakers are excluded from those threads that do not use English. They exclude people in a place that people go to post which is not supposed to be exclusionary. Therefore it is rude. That type of exclusion is for groups not the public forums. This argument has not been addressed.
Right, I'm making strawmen.
I told you earlier that the majority of the board members here have not had an issue with it. It seems that The_Hated, and yourself are the only two people that I've seen who have expressed a huge disliking to this thread. It seems that you're in the minority, not that it should be the basis of defeating your argument, but that you shouldn't be speaking for other people who haven't voiced their opinion. We've got thousands of members on the D&D board, and from what I've seen, only 2 people have criticized the original poster(OP).
If more people felt it were to be rude to be posting in a different language, they would have said something. WOTC's own Customer Service team doesn't even have a rule against it, and the OP does have a right to go on about their business posting in Spanish. The reason I stated you're providing rebuttals to my arguments, is because you felt that the OP was being rude. If you perceive it that way then by all means go ahead, but don't try to tell someone else they're wrong just because they don't agree with you.
Could it be that you're making a big leap in assuming that the function of the forums is to have a place for threads where everyone can participate in all discussions? Is there a credo somewhere on this site where WotC makes the claim that the purpose here is to guarantee that every discussion can be entertained by every forum member?
Further, I don't think that the preference of WotC for speaking and typing in English should be used to mean that english-speaking threads should be exempt from your very own criticism. Obviously, people that don't speak english can't participate in 99.999999999% of the threads on this forum. By your own defintion, this is alienating and rude. It is unreasonable to think that only english-speaking people play the game, or that only english-speaking people should be able to discuss the game on these forums. I doubt WotC would hold either of those views as well. Likewise, I doubt that they are trying to alienate anyone by using English exclusively for their site. Even further, I doubt that they are adverse to people posting in another language, and the statement provided by October_Darkness would back that up.
I also don't think that WotC considers it rude for a spanish-speaking person to post in spanish. How can they? They have provided a place, accessible by anyone, for people to come together and discuss their products. Not all D&D players speak english but we can hardly hold that against them. Wouldn't it be rude to take someone's money and then deny them a service you provide to all other consumers of your product, simply because they don't speak english?
In the same way WotC cannot be considered rude by have an english-speaking website, a forum member cannot be considered rude for simply posting a thread in spanish.
Basically, if WotC doesn't think its rude on their own forums, who are you to claim that it is? You and the_Hated are the only ones that have voiced a complaint. A WizO has been here and hasn't deleted or edited the OP, which is puzzling to me if the OP is as discriminatory, alienating, and rude as you say it is.
Would it belong better in a dedicated forum? Yeah, sure. Does that mean that when a non-english thread shows up every fifteen hundred years we should complain that it's rude and alienating? Well, for reasonable people, the answer is no.
I am making no leaps. Private groups are for private conversations. Public Forums are for everybody. Being exclusionary in a public forum as opposed to a private one is rude. It is that simple.
This does not fit my definition of rude with respect to English speaking threads denying those who do not speak English. The point is that English is the common language. It has been since the British Empire controlled the high seas and dominated the world markets. If you wish to be in the common conversations then you should use the common language.
Sure, some may not be able to speak English. But, then again they might not be able to read all the buttons in the forum controls. English is still the common language and the groups option exists to fix such obstacles.
Whether or not WotC considers it rude is moot. WotC are not the posters who participate in the threads. No one is being denied a service. Nearly all these users do speak English and can use the groups option if they choose. So what if OD and you do not think it is rude. You are wrong because excluding people from conversations in a format designed for everyone to participate is rude.
Further all this nonsense about what WotC would or would not do is a strawman. I made no suggestions that WotC should do anything. OD suggested that people had a "right" to post in any language they chose. I explained that they had no such right because WotC had the right to determine what occurs in their forum and gave reasons as to why they might choose to do so. I also explicitly stated that it did not mean they should or should not do anything.
I’ve removed content from this thread because baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg...
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. Keep on the thread topic.
Also to clarify. It IS against the code of conduct to carry on discussions in other langauges. This is primarly because this is because the moderators moderate in English. However, since the topic of the thread has shifted to IF we should allow it, this can be a purposeful discussion, so long as you don't attack others and follow the code of conduct.
I wish I could discuss this further with you, Rumple, but I'm going home. I don't feel too good, and I haven't had dinner yet.
I am making no leaps. Public Forums are for everybody.
For everybody to post in, not necessarily for everyone to be able to post in every thread. Do you see the difference?
If the goal was for everyone to be able to participate in every discussion, they'd be policing these forums like crazy.
There is a big difference between giving people the ability to discuss D&D and mandating that everyone be capable of participating in every discussion.
Being exclusionary in a public forum as opposed to a private one is rude. It is that simple.
Reiterating it doesn't make it so. The OP wasn't being exclusionary. The OP never barred anyone from joining the discussion, but he did invite certain people. Again, there is a difference.
If I make a thread titled 'Hey CO Math Wizards! Join this thread to create easy-to-use D&D related formulas!' I'm not being exclusionary and I'm not being rude.
If you wish to be in the common conversations then you should use the common language.
Who said the OP wished to be in the common conversations? The OP seems to indicate otherwise, that he wants to talk shop in a different language. If you and The_Hated wish to be in the common conversation, ignore the thread calling for latinos and spanish speakers and head over to the other, obviously common conversation threads.
Whether or not WotC considers it rude is moot. WotC are not the posters who participate in the threads.
WotC provides the forum and moderates it, so despite what you would like to assert, it does matter if they think it is rude or not. Because if they didn't think it was rude, and simultaneously allowed it, they could prevent people from bogging down threads like this one with these ridiculous arguments.
So what if OD and you do not think it is rude. You are wrong because excluding people from conversations in a format designed for everyone to participate is rude.
It is your view of the purpose of these forums that is flawed. You think that because the forums are allowed to anyone, everyone should therefore be able to participate in all discussions taking place on the forum.
That's a pretty big expectation.
Further all this nonsense about what WotC would or would not do is a strawman. I made no suggestions that WotC should do anything. OD suggested that people had a "right" to post in any language they chose. I explained that they had no such right because WotC had the right to determine what occurs in their forum and gave reasons as to why they might choose to do so. I also explicitly stated that it did not mean they should or should not do anything.
I don't think it's a strawman because I don't think I attributed that argument to you. I was explaining that really it isn't that big of a deal. You're not making that point, so I wasn't really arguing against you. I just don't see the providers and moderators of these forums getting into as big a stink over this as you and The_Hated have (though it's probably not fair to include you because it's really the arguing that's gotten heated up and you initially didn't respond negatively to the OP).
@ORC_Sinister:
Also to clarify. It IS against the code of conduct to carry on discussions in other langauges. This is primarly because this is because the moderators moderate in English. However, since the topic of the thread has shifted to IF we should allow it, this can be a purposeful discussion, so long as you don't attack others and follow the code of conduct.
Thanks for clarifying, but I checked the CoC and didn't find anything that disallowed it. The only clause that seems like it could come close would be #2, under the 'discriminatory language' part. Otherwise, I'm not seeing where it is against the CoC.
Makes sense though. Moderators can't moderate if they don't know what's being said.
I think my favorite part of the argument that its "rude" to talk in a language other people don't understand is that it means everytime two (or more) experts talk about their field of interest in a public place that they're being "rude".
Actually heck, everytime people start talking math above an algebra or trig level a huge swath of people get left behind. Guess they're being "rude" too.
Terrible analogy.
The medium of communication is the language.
If you are having a discussion about D&D it can be done in a number of languages. If a discussion is specifically about mathematics then it is about concepts that translate into another language the way towo languages can be translated.
I know I wasn't supposed to post anymore here, but I'd like to remind you that the French posts were bad not because they were simply in French. They all were English-French mangled nonsense that had little to no point and there were a lot of new threads started at once. Some suspected the poster fancied himself a poet of sorts.
Thought that might have needed clearing up.
I’ve removed content from this thread because baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg...
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. Keep on the thread topic.
Also to clarify. It IS against the code of conduct to carry on discussions in other langauges. This is primarly because this is because the moderators moderate in English. However, since the topic of the thread has shifted to IF we should allow it, this can be a purposeful discussion, so long as you don't attack others and follow the code of conduct.
I spoke directly with WOTC customer service, and was told that it isn't against the rules. Please double check.
Surprise hugs!
(>^o^)>
Due to complaints received about this thread, I've closed it. The thread will be reviewed to determine if it should be permanently closed, re-opened, and/or a new thread or threads created in its place.
I've removed content from this thread because Disruption is a violation of the Code of Conduct (also possibly for continuity). You can review the Code of Conduct here.
Sorry you think I am unreasonable.
"Think"? Nah, I'm arrogant enough to say I know you're being unreasonable.Heh.
If it makes you feel good to think so, then be my guest.
But there is absolutely no way that you know anything about me at all.
If you want this to turn personal, then keep it up.
Remember, it was you who started the insults and smart assness...
Because you basically ruined this thread with your nonsensical "hey, that's rude!!! don't speak in your native language." What kind of crap is that? I've got to go to class soon......
Another thing: We are in America. There's the United States of America, which belongs to the North American continent, there's Central America, and South America. Since you decided to solely bring up "America", I felt it was necessary to point out the obvious to you.
WotC is based in Renton, WA. In the USA. Since it is most assuredly an American company, some take that to mean that the boards are then also American. We've got members from all over the place, though, and that's something we all need to keep in mind. The preference seems to be English for the site (as most WotC customers seem to speak it, that makes sense) but beyond the listed example of a French spam artist, as far as I know there's no official position.
If language is used to disguise insults or whatever, it becomes a CoC violation of the type 'masking' as well as whatever the original problem is. Other than that, I have no idea when language could be an official issue.
Thank you, Z_B. At least someone else gets the picture. English may be the primary language in our country, but it's not the official language... we don't have one. Basically telling someone else to not use their own language is discrimination, even though they're posting messages on a board dominated by English speakers.
Because the forum is for everyone to exchange ideas.
No. It's apparently only for people who speak english to exchange ideas.
Incorrect. It's for everyone to exchange ideas - preferably in English. No requirement that I'm aware of at all.
Because the forum is for everyone to exchange ideas.
No. It's apparently only for people who speak english to exchange ideas.
But, to be more correct, for ideas to be exchanged there must be communication and for the exchange to occur others must communicate with a common language. That common language is English. It is the common language and that has a whole heck of a lot to do with not only how prominent it is in the U.S.A but because the British Empire dominated trade throughout the world for a very long period of time.
Thank you, Z_B. At least someone else gets the picture. English may be the primary language in our country, but it's not the official language... we don't have one. Basically telling someone else to not use their own language is discrimination, even though they're posting messages on a board dominated by English speakers.
I get the picture. You do not.
No, it is not discrimination.
The point is that this is a forum owned by a company.
For starters, using one language makes things easier on moderation to keep track of. Without doing so, there are a number of profane words and such that could be in sigs and posts for a while before being detected. If a moderator has to do a translation just to figure out whether or not something should be edited then the job has been made more difficult than it needs to be. That in and of itself is reason enough to limit the language to one and in this case that would be English.
Further, simply allowing varying language threads in the open would also have a habit of spilling over. It is inevitable. So, threads in the OTT would become threads and posts in Fourth Edition General and then in Q&A threads and forums and eventually into CS. To be specific about the problem with this, when things are translated information is often lost. In forums where rules discussions are going on this could cause them to break down. It could necessitate CS tryingt o answer some questions that are emailed and Spanish and then other questions that are emailed in German. And on and on.
So, there is a legitimate business reason to do so. It is too much trouble for the company to try and appease everyone. Here is the definition of discrimination
unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice
There is no unfair treatment in the expectation that posters will stick to the common language that the WotC books are printed in and is spoken by the overwhelming majority of posters in a WotC forum where everyone is expected to be allowed to contribute to each and every conversation that is not part of a group.
But, all this started because a statement was made that having a conversation here in a language that is not the common language of the forum is rude. And to be frank, it is rude. Why? These are not conversations that you are having with your friends at a foodcourt in a mall. These are written conversations in a public format designed for everyone to participate in any and every conversation. If you are having a conversation while having lunch in the public foodcourt with your friends and someone just walks up to your table and sits down and then joins the conversation that person has interrupted a conversation you were having even though it is in the public arena. The forums are not merely conversations in the public arena they are for everyone to participate. If you (general form) choose to use a language that many if not most do not know then you are excluding them. That is rude.
But, as I stated earlier, there are exceptions. Recruiting for a group is one. Another possible one is for a person learning the language to practice with native speakers perhaps even using an audible program such as blind people would use. Such a thread may work best in a group but placing in a different forum such as the OTT would increase traffic. But, we will never know whether or not the thread starter had any further plans because after starting this thread in the FR forums the poster nver posted in it again.
Then it still is for everyone who speaks English to exchange ideas. Not everyone speaks English. Therefore, it isn't for everyone to exchange ideas. I understand what you're saying, and you're making good points, but I'm just saying it can't be for everyone if exclude people who speak other languages (which, honestly, I'm fine with).
Because the forum is for everyone to exchange ideas.
No. It's apparently only for people who speak english to exchange ideas.
But, to be more correct, for ideas to be exchanged there must be communication and for the exchange to occur others must communicate with a common language. That common language is English. It is the common language and that has a whole heck of a lot to do with not only how prominent it is in the U.S.A but because the British Empire dominated trade throughout the world for a very long period of time.
Thank you, Z_B. At least someone else gets the picture. English may be the primary language in our country, but it's not the official language... we don't have one. Basically telling someone else to not use their own language is discrimination, even though they're posting messages on a board dominated by English speakers.
I get the picture. You do not.
No, it is not discrimination.
The point is that this is a forum owned by a company.
For starters, using one language makes things easier on moderation to keep track of. Without doing so, there are a number of profane words and such that could be in sigs and posts for a while before being detected. If a moderator has to do a translation just to figure out whether or not something should be edited then the job has been made more difficult than it needs to be. That in and of itself is reason enough to limit the language to one and in this case that would be English.
Further, simply allowing varying language threads in the open would also have a habit of spilling over. It is inevitable. So, threads in the OTT would become threads and posts in Fourth Edition General and then in Q&A threads and forums and eventually into CS. To be specific about the problem with this, when things are translated information is often lost. In forums where rules discussions are going on this could cause them to break down. It could necessitate CS tryingt o answer some questions that are emailed and Spanish and then other questions that are emailed in German. And on and on.
So, there is a legitimate business reason to do so. It is too much trouble for the company to try and appease everyone. Here is the definition of discrimination
unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice
There is no unfair treatment in the expectation that posters will stick to the common language that the WotC books are printed in and is spoken by the overwhelming majority of posters in a WotC forum where everyone is expected to be allowed to contribute to each and every conversation that is not part of a group.
But, all this started because a statement was made that having a conversation here in a language that is not the common language of the forum is rude. And to be frank, it is rude. Why? These are not conversations that you are having with your friends at a foodcourt in a mall. These are written conversations in a public format designed for everyone to participate in any and every conversation. If you are having a conversation while having lunch in the public foodcourt with your friends and someone just walks up to your table and sits down and then joins the conversation that person has interrupted a conversation you were having even though it is in the public arena. The forums are not merely conversations in the public arena they are for everyone to participate. If you (general form) choose to use a language that many if not most do not know then you are excluding them. That is rude.
But, as I stated earlier, there are exceptions. Recruiting for a group is one. Another possible one is for a person learning the language to practice with native speakers perhaps even using an audible program such as blind people would use. Such a thread may work best in a group but placing in a different forum such as the OTT would increase traffic. But, we will never know whether or not the thread starter had any further plans because after starting this thread in the FR forums the poster nver posted in it again.
It's discrimination. You're juggling your words with unnecessary verbiage in order to disprove my point, but it has no effect whatsoever. In order to simplify it for you, I'll have to make a list.
1. Discrimination can be behavior meant to target another group, or to act irrational towards a certain race or ethnicity.
2. Here's the context in which we are arguing the meaning of discrimination- 3 a : the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually b : prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment
3. What The_Hated did was perceive the actions of the Latino 4th edition players as rude. I have the feeling that he did it only to spite them, and to instigate the whole controversy that we're now having.
4. Their choice to post in Spanish is a right given to them, even if the public messageboard is owned by a private establishment.
5. Their intentions were never really found out, as the big debate has either caused them to not want to post, or they just couldn't find the thread again.
6. Who really cares if we can't understand them? This country is so diverse that the racial barriers we've experienced in the past are starting to thin away.
7. I can infer from your post that you're attacking people personally, rather than the arguments they make. Please be careful when posting.
Then it still is for everyone who speaks English to exchange ideas. Not everyone speaks English. Therefore, it isn't for everyone to exchange ideas. I understand what you're saying, and you're making good points, but I'm just saying it can't be for everyone if exclude people who speak other languages (which, honestly, I'm fine with).
But, it doesn't exclude "people who speak other languages". It is a subset of that. That subset is "people who speak other languages and do not speak English" Further, there should be qualifications on "everybody" as it is rarely the case where that absolutes such as everybody are used without some sort of limitations being applied. The first limitation (which I had in mind when speaking of "everybody") is to posters on this board. When discussing posters on this board we are not discussing tribal nomads in the most desolate parts of Mongolia who have never seen a TV much less a computer and have never heard a word of English. Once that limitation is applied (posters on this board), the number who do not speak English becomes statistically negligible and can be considered zero. Thus, it applies to "everybody".
Then it still is for everyone who speaks English to exchange ideas. Not everyone speaks English. Therefore, it isn't for everyone to exchange ideas. I understand what you're saying, and you're making good points, but I'm just saying it can't be for everyone if exclude people who speak other languages (which, honestly, I'm fine with).
But, it doesn't exclude "people who speak other languages". It is a subset of that. That subset is "people who speak other languages and do not speak English" Further, there should be qualifications on "everybody" as it is rarely the case where that absolutes such as everybody are used without some sort of limitations being applied. The first limitation (which I had in mind when speaking of "everybody") is to posters on this board. When discussing posters on this board we are not discussing tribal nomads in the most desolate parts of Mongolia who have never seen a TV much less a computer and have never heard a word of English. Once that limitation is applied (posters on this board), the number who do not speak English becomes statistically negligible and can be considered zero. Thus, it applies to "everybody".
Your use of "everybody" would discriminately target the Latino speakers, and would be considered a faux pas. Even if the percentage of other non-english speaking posters on this board would be very small, I'm sure that WOTC will eventually have to acknowledge expanding their operations so that a problem like this doesn't happen.
Quote tags are screwing up...
Because the forum is for everyone to exchange ideas.
No. It's apparently only for people who speak english to exchange ideas.
But, to be more correct, for ideas to be exchanged there must be communication and for the exchange to occur others must communicate with a common language. That common language is English. It is the common language and that has a whole heck of a lot to do with not only how prominent it is in the U.S.A but because the British Empire dominated trade throughout the world for a very long period of time.
Thank you, Z_B. At least someone else gets the picture. English may be the primary language in our country, but it's not the official language... we don't have one. Basically telling someone else to not use their own language is discrimination, even though they're posting messages on a board dominated by English speakers.
I get the picture. You do not.
No, it is not discrimination.
The point is that this is a forum owned by a company.
For starters, using one language makes things easier on moderation to keep track of. Without doing so, there are a number of profane words and such that could be in sigs and posts for a while before being detected. If a moderator has to do a translation just to figure out whether or not something should be edited then the job has been made more difficult than it needs to be. That in and of itself is reason enough to limit the language to one and in this case that would be English.
Further, simply allowing varying language threads in the open would also have a habit of spilling over. It is inevitable. So, threads in the OTT would become threads and posts in Fourth Edition General and then in Q&A threads and forums and eventually into CS. To be specific about the problem with this, when things are translated information is often lost. In forums where rules discussions are going on this could cause them to break down. It could necessitate CS tryingt o answer some questions that are emailed and Spanish and then other questions that are emailed in German. And on and on.
So, there is a legitimate business reason to do so. It is too much trouble for the company to try and appease everyone. Here is the definition of discrimination
unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice
There is no unfair treatment in the expectation that posters will stick to the common language that the WotC books are printed in and is spoken by the overwhelming majority of posters in a WotC forum where everyone is expected to be allowed to contribute to each and every conversation that is not part of a group.
But, all this started because a statement was made that having a conversation here in a language that is not the common language of the forum is rude. And to be frank, it is rude. Why? These are not conversations that you are having with your friends at a foodcourt in a mall. These are written conversations in a public format designed for everyone to participate in any and every conversation. If you are having a conversation while having lunch in the public foodcourt with your friends and someone just walks up to your table and sits down and then joins the conversation that person has interrupted a conversation you were having even though it is in the public arena. The forums are not merely conversations in the public arena they are for everyone to participate. If you (general form) choose to use a language that many if not most do not know then you are excluding them. That is rude.
But, as I stated earlier, there are exceptions. Recruiting for a group is one. Another possible one is for a person learning the language to practice with native speakers perhaps even using an audible program such as blind people would use. Such a thread may work best in a group but placing in a different forum such as the OTT would increase traffic. But, we will never know whether or not the thread starter had any further plans because after starting this thread in the FR forums the poster nver posted in it again.
start OD's reply:
It's discrimination. You're juggling your words in order to prove the point, but it has no effect whatsoever. In order to simplify it for you, I'll have to make a list.
1. Discrimination can be behavior meant to target another group, or to act irrational towards a certain race or ethnicity.
2. Here's the context in which we are arguing the meaning of discrimination- 3 a : the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually b : prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment
3. What The_Hated did was perceive the actions of the Latino 4th edition players as rude. I have the feeling that he did it only to spite them, and to instigate the whole controversy that we're now having.
4. Their choice to post in Spanish is a right given to them, even if the public messageboard is owned by a private establishment.
5. Their intentions were never really found out, as the big debate has either caused them to not want to post, or they just couldn't find the thread again.
6. Who really cares if we can't understand them? This country is so diverse that the racial barriers we've experienced in the past are starting to thin away.
End OD's reply.
I am juggling nothing. I need no smart ass list for you to make. Allow me to demonstrate.
#1 above in no way changes what I stated.
#2 above in no way changes what I stated.
#3 He correctly perceived their actions as rude as I demonstrated and you refused to address. Further, you are jumping to conclusions about The_Hated rather than address the merits laid out for it being rude.
#4. No, it is not a right given to them. You have no idea what you are talking about. WotC may or may not allow it at their discretion because the forum is their property.
#5 I am aware that their intentions were never found out. I explicitly stated so. This still does not address the points regarding rudeness.
#6 That is a huge straw man and has nothing to do with the discussion. Each and every thread that is not a part of a group forum is for everyone to join in. Choosing to have a conversation in a language that excludes others in a situation designed to include everyone is rude.
Still, none of the points that show it is being rude have been addressed.
I am juggling nothing. I need no smart ass list for you to make. Allow me to demonstrate.
#1 above in no way changes what I stated.
#2 above in no way changes what I stated.
#3 He correctly perceived their actions as rude as I demonstrated and you refused to address. Further, you are jumping to conclusions about The_Hated rather than address the merits laid out for it being rude.
#4. No, it is not a right given to them. You have no idea what you are talking about. WotC may or may not allow it at their discretion because the forum is their property.
#5 I am aware that their intentions were never found out. I explicitly stated so. This still does not address the points regarding rudeness.
#6 That is a huge straw man and has nothing to do with the discussion. Each and every thread that is not a part of a group forum is for everyone to join in. Choosing to have a conversation in a language that excludes others in a situation designed to include everyone is rude.
Still, none of the points that show it is being rude have been addressed.
I can't take your posts seriously, because no matter how many times I've proved something... you are there to object to anything I say. I made a list in order to break apart your arguments, simply because any person could have missed your point. You haven't really made anything clear, except that this site is the intellectual property of WOTC. Bravo, good job. Your insistence in supporting the opinion that the Latino posters on this board were being rude, despite the overwhelming majority of English speakers we have here that don't have a problem with it seems to be the other main issue.
You can view it as rude, but I view it as close-mindedness. You like to call my list a smartass move, but here I continue to not make personal attacks simply because that would defeat any argument I have presented before you. It seems to me that The_Hated antagonized others into actually caring about something that is so menial, that I've wondered why you've taken this so seriously.
I do have an idea of what I'm talking about, and your SN sounds familiar. If only I could recall a previous thread about DM's cheating....
But it is American land.
White has nothing to do with it.
American has nothing to do with it either, considering there is no official language in this country. English, in other words, is not the American language. There is no American language.
Also, I find your remarks racist and dismissive.
Big deal. Your remarks are petty, unnecessary, and obstructive.
Seriously, you went out of your way and chose to make this a larger issue than it is.
I am juggling nothing. I need no smart ass list for you to make. Allow me to demonstrate.
#1 above in no way changes what I stated.
#2 above in no way changes what I stated.
#3 He correctly perceived their actions as rude as I demonstrated and you refused to address. Further, you are jumping to conclusions about The_Hated rather than address the merits laid out for it being rude.
#4. No, it is not a right given to them. You have no idea what you are talking about. WotC may or may not allow it at their discretion because the forum is their property.
#5 I am aware that their intentions were never found out. I explicitly stated so. This still does not address the points regarding rudeness.
#6 That is a huge straw man and has nothing to do with the discussion. Each and every thread that is not a part of a group forum is for everyone to join in. Choosing to have a conversation in a language that excludes others in a situation designed to include everyone is rude.
Still, none of the points that show it is being rude have been addressed.
I can't take your posts seriously, because no matter how many times I've proved something... you are there to object to anything I say. I made a list in order to break apart your arguments, simply because any person could have missed your point. You haven't really made anything clear, except that this site is the intellectual property of WOTC. Bravo, good job. Your insistence in supporting the opinion that the Latino posters on this board were being rude, despite the overwhelming majority of English speakers we have here that don't have a problem with it seems to be the other main issue.
You can view it as rude, but I view it as close-mindedness. You like to call my list a smartass move, but here I continue to not make personal attacks simply because that would defeat any argument I have presented before you. It seems to me that The_Hated antagonized others into actually caring about something that is so menial, that I've wondered why you've taken this so seriously.
I do have an idea of what I'm talking about, and your SN sounds familiar. If only I could recall a previous thread about DM's cheating....
It is not my problem that you fail to follow suimple logic.
The point is that your list didn't prove anything or come remotely close to it. It did not address the points that I made. There is nothing close minded about it. it is simpy a statement about what leads to better communication in a format designed for communication: use of one language. Using a language that others do not use does exclude them. That is not being close minded those are simply statements of facts that have not been addressed.
What is SN? (Maybe I am stupid not to know...)
I have over 4500 posts so you may have seen them before but I don't think I have ever posted in a thread about DMs cheating so I do not know what you are talking about there.
@ October Darkness
You stated that they have a right to post in whatever language they chose.
I stated that they have no such right because the forums are the property of WotC. Free Speech denies the government the ability to restrict speech. There is nothing to deny WotC the ability to restrict the use of their site. Therefore, the posters have no "right" to post in any language they want. WotC can restrict the languages used in its forums if they so choose. To repeat, there is no "right" here.
It is not my problem that you fail to follow suimple logic.
The point is that your list didn't prove anything or come remotely close to it. It did not address the points that I made. There is nothing close minded about it. it is simpy a statement about what leads to better communication in a format designed for communication: use of one language. Using a language that others do not use does exclude them. That is not being close minded those are simply statements of facts that have not been addressed.
What is SN? (Maybe I am stupid not to know...)
I have over 4500 posts so you may have seen them before but I don't think I have ever posted in a thread about DMs cheating so I do not know what you are talking about there.
No, I can understand what you're saying but I don't agree with it. Let me re-summarize your points for the umpteenth time.
1. WOTC owns this board and since it's a private corporation, they can choose to enact whatever policies they wish. If that happens to exclude any conversation in a language other than English, then so be it.
2. According to you, it's rude to post in another language because it excludes the majority of the board.
3. WOTC doesn't have the manpower to be able to translate, so therefore they shouldn't have to deal with posters talking in other languages, simply because it can stretch out the moderating staff on this board.
Like I've said, they have a right to post here, in their own language. It's not rude to speak in their language, just because the majority of the people in the thread couldn't infer as to what their intentions were. If we were seeing them spamming constantly in all of the forums, then it could have become a problem, but they haven't done so. The member that was posting in French was spamming the board, which caused the moderating team to take action. That's an entirely different matter simply because the Latino posters haven't had much involvement within this "community".
I don't think there is a Spanish forum for Latino 4th edition players, even though I've looked for one online.
I think my favorite part of the argument that its "rude" to talk in a language other people don't understand is that it means everytime two (or more) experts talk about their field of interest in a public place that they're being "rude".
Actually heck, everytime people start talking math above an algebra or trig level a huge swath of people get left behind. Guess they're being "rude" too.
@ October Darkness
You stated that they have a right to post in whatever language they chose.
I stated that they have no such right because the forums are the property of WotC. Free Speech denies the government the ability to restrict speech. There is nothing to deny WotC the ability to restrict the use of their site. Therefore, the posters have no "right" to post in any language they want. WotC can restrict the languages used in its forums if they so choose. To repeat, there is no "right" here.
Which they haven't done so, otherwise this thread would have been closed. If they have looked over this thread, and didn't find any problems, then every point you have made would be considered moot. In some ways, we exclude each other from discussions all the time. If I were to use Ebonics in all of my posts, that would exclude the rest that are unfamiliar with certain uses of slang. It doesn't matter if it's a dialect of English, it's so differentiated that you wouldn't know what badunkadunk means unless you looked it up online, or saw a Dave Chapelle episode.
For your convenience, SN = screen name
It is not my problem that you fail to follow suimple logic.
The point is that your list didn't prove anything or come remotely close to it. It did not address the points that I made. There is nothing close minded about it. it is simpy a statement about what leads to better communication in a format designed for communication: use of one language. Using a language that others do not use does exclude them. That is not being close minded those are simply statements of facts that have not been addressed.
What is SN? (Maybe I am stupid not to know...)
I have over 4500 posts so you may have seen them before but I don't think I have ever posted in a thread about DMs cheating so I do not know what you are talking about there.
No, I can understand what you're saying but I don't agree with it. Let me re-summarize your points for the umpteenth time.
1. WOTC owns this board and since it's a private corporation, they can choose to enact whatever policies they wish. If that happens to exclude any conversation in a language other than English, then so be it.
2. According to you, it's rude to post in another language because it excludes the majority of the board.
3. WOTC doesn't have the manpower to be able to translate, so therefore they shouldn't have to deal with posters talking in other languages, simply because it can stretch out the moderating staff on this board.
Like I've said, they have a right to post here, in their own language. It's not rude to speak in their language, just because the majority of the people in the thread couldn't infer as to what their intentions were. If we were seeing them spamming constantly in all of the forums, then it could have become a problem, but they haven't done so. The member that was posting in French was spamming the board, which caused the moderating team to take action. That's an entirely different matter simply because the Latino posters haven't had much involvement within this "community".
I don't think there is a Spanish forum for Latino 4th edition players, even though I've looked for one online.
First, no, they have no right to post in their own language. If theyhad a right to do so then WotC would not have a right to prevent them from doing so. Your logic fails completely on this count.
Second it is rude to do so because the forum is not intended for private or exclusionary conversations. It does not matter whether or not it is spamming. it excludes those who may wish to be in the conversation. It does not matter how many other conversations there are out there for English posters to take part in. Private and exclusionary conversations are for private groups.
Comparing this to the French spammer with regard to rudeness is a strawman. Spam is a CoC violation whether or not it is in French or Spanish. This is rude because it is in an exclusionary language in a forum where all the threads are supposed to be open to everyone. Choosing to not make it open to everyone by using a different language is exclusionary and therefore rude because it is in a forum where there is not supposed to be exclusion.
The no fourth edition Spanish forum is another strawman. If anyone wants a forum for 4th edition players who speak Spanish or any other language all that one has to do is to create a group. Groups have forums. So, then you can then create a thread inviting others to join the group or you can for instance go to the welcome thread here and in other forums of WotC and post a link to the group and invite them to join.
@ October Darkness
You stated that they have a right to post in whatever language they chose.
I stated that they have no such right because the forums are the property of WotC. Free Speech denies the government the ability to restrict speech. There is nothing to deny WotC the ability to restrict the use of their site. Therefore, the posters have no "right" to post in any language they want. WotC can restrict the languages used in its forums if they so choose. To repeat, there is no "right" here.
Which they haven't done so, otherwise this thread would have been closed. If they have looked over this thread, and didn't find any problems, then every point you have made would be considered moot. In some ways, we exclude each other from discussions all the time. If I were to use Ebonics in all of my posts, that would exclude the rest that are unfamiliar with certain uses of slang. It doesn't matter if it's a dialect of English, it's so differentiated that you wouldn't know what badunkadunk means unless you looked it up online, or saw a Dave Chapelle episode.
For your convenience, SN = screen name
You are again attacking a strawman. you stated that they have a right to post in any language. I stated they have no right. The fact that WotC has chosen not to exercise their right has no bearing on whether or not they have that right. you made the statement and I challenged it. There is nothing moot to my challenge without you removing your statement in its entirety, which you have not.
Jason in the Games Support Team from Customer Service states that there's no rule against posting in another language, but if the thread were to be too disruptive, then yes it can be shut down.
That's the ruling from an official WOTC employee. It's not the language being spoken that is disruptive, it's ourselves that's making this a bigger problem than it should be.
Jason in the Games Support Team from Customer Service states that there's no rule against posting in another language, but if the thread were to be too disruptive, then yes it can be shut down.
That's the ruling from an official WOTC employee. It's not the language being spoken that is disruptive, it's ourselves that's making this a bigger problem than it should be.
So, do you agree that they have no "right" to post in any language they want? Being allowed to does not constitute a right to do so.
Second, this has no bearing on it being or not being rude.
Jason in the Games Support Team from Customer Service states that there's no rule against posting in another language, but if the thread were to be too disruptive, then yes it can be shut down.
That's the ruling from an official WOTC employee. It's not the language being spoken that is disruptive, it's ourselves that's making this a bigger problem than it should be.
So, do you agree that they have no "right" to post in any language they want? Being allowed to does not constitute a right to do so.
Second, this has no bearing on it being or not being rude.
Let me explain it for you one more time. They can post in their native language, only if it doesn't disrupt the harmony of the board, which it doesn't. That was what I was told from Jason of Customer Service. I'm sure if the same Latino members were to take it to court, they would win. It's discriminating to attempt to stop someone from posting in another language, simply because it could be deemed "rude".
Your main argument has been that it's "rude", however many times logical people have disagreed with you. You've been trying to point it out to me most of all, that it's WOTC intellectual property, and that has been your supporting point only because you thought the Latino members were once again, "being rude".
The argument here you've presented isn't whether or not WOTC will take action, whether they have a right to post, but if it's indecent behavior to post in something that can exclude others from posting in that thread. The main rebuttal to that is simply that it's not. We have a whole crapload of threads to post in, and it hasn't really hurt anyone to let our Latino members go about their business.
The only person using strawmans is you. You make up points in your own head to easily argue against them, and it's annoying.
I’ve removed content from this thread because baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg...
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
October Darkness stated that they have a right to post in any language they wish. I challenged that and October Darkness continued to argue that they have a right to post in any language that they wish. Try asking OD why he is arguing it rather than listening to reason.
There is no projecting of something sinister. It is simply stating the truth: it is rude because it prohibits some people from joining conversations that are supposed to be meant for everyone. Conversations not meant for everyone belong in groups. It really is that simple.
It would be rude if I were to have lunch with a group of people, and they spoke in another language so I couldn't talk with them. That's taking into a personal account of where my access to communicating with other people is limited. It's not rude in this board because we have so many threads in English, that our board shouldn't be bothered by ONE thread. If it's bothering you, Rumple, tough luck. I've listened to your logic, and I told you I disagree with you.
Jason in the Games Support Team from Customer Service states that there's no rule against posting in another language, but if the thread were to be too disruptive, then yes it can be shut down.
That's the ruling from an official WOTC employee. It's not the language being spoken that is disruptive, it's ourselves that's making this a bigger problem than it should be.
So, do you agree that they have no "right" to post in any language they want? Being allowed to does not constitute a right to do so.
Second, this has no bearing on it being or not being rude.
Let me explain it for you one more time. They can post in their native language, only if it doesn't disrupt the harmony of the board, which it doesn't. That was what I was told from Jason of Customer Service. I'm sure if the same Latino members were to take it to court, they would win. It's discriminating to attempt to stop someone from posting in another language, simply because it could be deemed "rude".
Your main argument has been that it's "rude", however many times logical people have disagreed with you. You've been trying to point it out to me most of all, that it's WOTC intellectual property, and that has been your supporting point only because you thought the Latino members were once again, "being rude".
The argument here you've presented isn't whether or not WOTC will take action, whether they have a right to post, but if it's indecent behavior to post in something that can exclude others from posting in that thread. The main rebuttal to that is simply that it's not. We have a whole crapload of threads to post in, and it hasn't really hurt anyone to let our Latino members go about their business.
The only person using strawmans is you. You make up points in your own head to easily argue against them, and it's annoying.
I am not making up arguments in my head. I am countering those that you make.
You are making so many strawmen that it appears to be intentional. Take this part:
"Your main argument has been that it's "rude", however many times logical people have disagreed with you. You've been trying to point it out to me most of all, that it's WOTC intellectual property, and that has been your supporting point only because you thought the Latino members were once again, "being rude"."
First, for the huge strawman.
You are connecting the rude arguments with those of the argument about "right" to post in any language they choose. You argued that the posters had a "right" to post in their native language and I argued that they had no such right because WotC has the right to determine what goes in their forums. This has explicitly been a separate argument from the rudeness argument so do not try to post them together in that strawman fashion.
Second, I keep making arguments as to why it is rude and they have not been addressed. When those solid arguments are not addressed, they stand. Simply disagreeing by saying "no it isn't" does not invalidate points being made.
My argument for the rudeness has been that the forum is for threads that allow everyone to participate. Languages other than Engligh exclude people from participating in a thread. Other threads in English do not change the fact that English only speakers are excluded from those threads that do not use English. They exclude people in a place that people go to post which is not supposed to be exclusionary. Therefore it is rude. That type of exclusion is for groups not the public forums. This argument has not been addressed.
Could it be that you're making a big leap in assuming that the function of the forums is to have a place for threads where everyone can participate in all discussions? Is there a credo somewhere on this site where WotC makes the claim that the purpose here is to guarantee that every discussion can be entertained by every forum member?
Further, I don't think that the preference of WotC for speaking and typing in English should be used to mean that english-speaking threads should be exempt from your very own criticism. Obviously, people that don't speak english can't participate in 99.999999999% of the threads on this forum. By your own defintion, this is alienating and rude. It is unreasonable to think that only english-speaking people play the game, or that only english-speaking people should be able to discuss the game on these forums. I doubt WotC would hold either of those views as well. Likewise, I doubt that they are trying to alienate anyone by using English exclusively for their site. Even further, I doubt that they are adverse to people posting in another language, and the statement provided by October_Darkness would back that up.
I also don't think that WotC considers it rude for a spanish-speaking person to post in spanish. How can they? They have provided a place, accessible by anyone, for people to come together and discuss their products. Not all D&D players speak english but we can hardly hold that against them. Wouldn't it be rude to take someone's money and then deny them a service you provide to all other consumers of your product, simply because they don't speak english?
In the same way WotC cannot be considered rude by have an english-speaking website, a forum member cannot be considered rude for simply posting a thread in spanish.
Basically, if WotC doesn't think its rude on their own forums, who are you to claim that it is? You and the_Hated are the only ones that have voiced a complaint. A WizO has been here and hasn't deleted or edited the OP, which is puzzling to me if the OP is as discriminatory, alienating, and rude as you say it is.
Would it belong better in a dedicated forum? Yeah, sure. Does that mean that when a non-english thread shows up every fifteen hundred years we should complain that it's rude and alienating? Well, for reasonable people, the answer is no.
I am not making up arguments in my head. I am countering those that you make.
You are making so many strawmen that it appears to be intentional. Take this part:
"Your main argument has been that it's "rude", however many times logical people have disagreed with you. You've been trying to point it out to me most of all, that it's WOTC intellectual property, and that has been your supporting point only because you thought the Latino members were once again, "being rude"."
First, for the huge strawman.
You are connecting the rude arguments with those of the argument about "right" to post in any language they choose. You argued that the posters had a "right" to post in their native language and I argued that they had no such right because WotC has the right to determine what goes in their forums. This has explicitly been a separate argument from the rudeness argument so do not try to post them together in that strawman fashion.
Second, I keep making arguments as to why it is rude and they have not been addressed. When those solid arguments are not addressed, they stand. Simply disagreeing by saying "no it isn't" does not invalidate points being made.
My argument for the rudeness has been that the forum is for threads that allow everyone to participate. Languages other than Engligh exclude people from participating in a thread. Other threads in English do not change the fact that English only speakers are excluded from those threads that do not use English. They exclude people in a place that people go to post which is not supposed to be exclusionary. Therefore it is rude. That type of exclusion is for groups not the public forums. This argument has not been addressed.
Right, I'm making strawmen.
I told you earlier that the majority of the board members here have not had an issue with it. It seems that The_Hated, and yourself are the only two people that I've seen who have expressed a huge disliking to this thread. It seems that you're in the minority, not that it should be the basis of defeating your argument, but that you shouldn't be speaking for other people who haven't voiced their opinion. We've got thousands of members on the D&D board, and from what I've seen, only 2 people have criticized the original poster(OP).
If more people felt it were to be rude to be posting in a different language, they would have said something. WOTC's own Customer Service team doesn't even have a rule against it, and the OP does have a right to go on about their business posting in Spanish. The reason I stated you're providing rebuttals to my arguments, is because you felt that the OP was being rude. If you perceive it that way then by all means go ahead, but don't try to tell someone else they're wrong just because they don't agree with you.
Could it be that you're making a big leap in assuming that the function of the forums is to have a place for threads where everyone can participate in all discussions? Is there a credo somewhere on this site where WotC makes the claim that the purpose here is to guarantee that every discussion can be entertained by every forum member?
Further, I don't think that the preference of WotC for speaking and typing in English should be used to mean that english-speaking threads should be exempt from your very own criticism. Obviously, people that don't speak english can't participate in 99.999999999% of the threads on this forum. By your own defintion, this is alienating and rude. It is unreasonable to think that only english-speaking people play the game, or that only english-speaking people should be able to discuss the game on these forums. I doubt WotC would hold either of those views as well. Likewise, I doubt that they are trying to alienate anyone by using English exclusively for their site. Even further, I doubt that they are adverse to people posting in another language, and the statement provided by October_Darkness would back that up.
I also don't think that WotC considers it rude for a spanish-speaking person to post in spanish. How can they? They have provided a place, accessible by anyone, for people to come together and discuss their products. Not all D&D players speak english but we can hardly hold that against them. Wouldn't it be rude to take someone's money and then deny them a service you provide to all other consumers of your product, simply because they don't speak english?
In the same way WotC cannot be considered rude by have an english-speaking website, a forum member cannot be considered rude for simply posting a thread in spanish.
Basically, if WotC doesn't think its rude on their own forums, who are you to claim that it is? You and the_Hated are the only ones that have voiced a complaint. A WizO has been here and hasn't deleted or edited the OP, which is puzzling to me if the OP is as discriminatory, alienating, and rude as you say it is.
Would it belong better in a dedicated forum? Yeah, sure. Does that mean that when a non-english thread shows up every fifteen hundred years we should complain that it's rude and alienating? Well, for reasonable people, the answer is no.
I am making no leaps. Private groups are for private conversations. Public Forums are for everybody. Being exclusionary in a public forum as opposed to a private one is rude. It is that simple.
This does not fit my definition of rude with respect to English speaking threads denying those who do not speak English. The point is that English is the common language. It has been since the British Empire controlled the high seas and dominated the world markets. If you wish to be in the common conversations then you should use the common language.
Sure, some may not be able to speak English. But, then again they might not be able to read all the buttons in the forum controls. English is still the common language and the groups option exists to fix such obstacles.
Whether or not WotC considers it rude is moot. WotC are not the posters who participate in the threads. No one is being denied a service. Nearly all these users do speak English and can use the groups option if they choose. So what if OD and you do not think it is rude. You are wrong because excluding people from conversations in a format designed for everyone to participate is rude.
Further all this nonsense about what WotC would or would not do is a strawman. I made no suggestions that WotC should do anything. OD suggested that people had a "right" to post in any language they chose. I explained that they had no such right because WotC had the right to determine what occurs in their forum and gave reasons as to why they might choose to do so. I also explicitly stated that it did not mean they should or should not do anything.
I’ve removed content from this thread because baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg...
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. Keep on the thread topic.
Also to clarify. It IS against the code of conduct to carry on discussions in other langauges. This is primarly because this is because the moderators moderate in English. However, since the topic of the thread has shifted to IF we should allow it, this can be a purposeful discussion, so long as you don't attack others and follow the code of conduct.
I wish I could discuss this further with you, Rumple, but I'm going home. I don't feel too good, and I haven't had dinner yet.
I am making no leaps. Public Forums are for everybody.
For everybody to post in, not necessarily for everyone to be able to post in every thread. Do you see the difference?
If the goal was for everyone to be able to participate in every discussion, they'd be policing these forums like crazy.
There is a big difference between giving people the ability to discuss D&D and mandating that everyone be capable of participating in every discussion.
Being exclusionary in a public forum as opposed to a private one is rude. It is that simple.
Reiterating it doesn't make it so. The OP wasn't being exclusionary. The OP never barred anyone from joining the discussion, but he did invite certain people. Again, there is a difference.
If I make a thread titled 'Hey CO Math Wizards! Join this thread to create easy-to-use D&D related formulas!' I'm not being exclusionary and I'm not being rude.
If you wish to be in the common conversations then you should use the common language.
Who said the OP wished to be in the common conversations? The OP seems to indicate otherwise, that he wants to talk shop in a different language. If you and The_Hated wish to be in the common conversation, ignore the thread calling for latinos and spanish speakers and head over to the other, obviously common conversation threads.
Whether or not WotC considers it rude is moot. WotC are not the posters who participate in the threads.
WotC provides the forum and moderates it, so despite what you would like to assert, it does matter if they think it is rude or not. Because if they didn't think it was rude, and simultaneously allowed it, they could prevent people from bogging down threads like this one with these ridiculous arguments.
So what if OD and you do not think it is rude. You are wrong because excluding people from conversations in a format designed for everyone to participate is rude.
It is your view of the purpose of these forums that is flawed. You think that because the forums are allowed to anyone, everyone should therefore be able to participate in all discussions taking place on the forum.
That's a pretty big expectation.
Further all this nonsense about what WotC would or would not do is a strawman. I made no suggestions that WotC should do anything. OD suggested that people had a "right" to post in any language they chose. I explained that they had no such right because WotC had the right to determine what occurs in their forum and gave reasons as to why they might choose to do so. I also explicitly stated that it did not mean they should or should not do anything.
I don't think it's a strawman because I don't think I attributed that argument to you. I was explaining that really it isn't that big of a deal. You're not making that point, so I wasn't really arguing against you. I just don't see the providers and moderators of these forums getting into as big a stink over this as you and The_Hated have (though it's probably not fair to include you because it's really the arguing that's gotten heated up and you initially didn't respond negatively to the OP).
@ORC_Sinister:
Also to clarify. It IS against the code of conduct to carry on discussions in other langauges. This is primarly because this is because the moderators moderate in English. However, since the topic of the thread has shifted to IF we should allow it, this can be a purposeful discussion, so long as you don't attack others and follow the code of conduct.
Thanks for clarifying, but I checked the CoC and didn't find anything that disallowed it. The only clause that seems like it could come close would be #2, under the 'discriminatory language' part. Otherwise, I'm not seeing where it is against the CoC.
Makes sense though. Moderators can't moderate if they don't know what's being said.
I think my favorite part of the argument that its "rude" to talk in a language other people don't understand is that it means everytime two (or more) experts talk about their field of interest in a public place that they're being "rude".
Actually heck, everytime people start talking math above an algebra or trig level a huge swath of people get left behind. Guess they're being "rude" too.
Terrible analogy.
The medium of communication is the language.
If you are having a discussion about D&D it can be done in a number of languages. If a discussion is specifically about mathematics then it is about concepts that translate into another language the way towo languages can be translated.
I know I wasn't supposed to post anymore here, but I'd like to remind you that the French posts were bad not because they were simply in French. They all were English-French mangled nonsense that had little to no point and there were a lot of new threads started at once. Some suspected the poster fancied himself a poet of sorts.
Thought that might have needed clearing up.
I’ve removed content from this thread because baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg...
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. Keep on the thread topic.
Also to clarify. It IS against the code of conduct to carry on discussions in other langauges. This is primarly because this is because the moderators moderate in English. However, since the topic of the thread has shifted to IF we should allow it, this can be a purposeful discussion, so long as you don't attack others and follow the code of conduct.
I spoke directly with WOTC customer service, and was told that it isn't against the rules. Please double check.
Surprise hugs!
(>^o^)>
Due to complaints received about this thread, I've closed it. The thread will be reviewed to determine if it should be permanently closed, re-opened, and/or a new thread or threads created in its place.
I've removed content from this thread because Disruption is a violation of the Code of Conduct (also possibly for continuity). You can review the Code of Conduct here.