Also, help me win a bet: Batman vs. Dr. Doom?
If so, it'll go on forever.
Also, I'm glad they killed Bruce Wayne, it was time for someone else to take up the Mantle of the Bat. If I had my say with American Comics this sort of thing would happen more frequently. Rather than just run the same stories over and over and over...
And that way you don't get **** like One More Day.
Batman with prep time?
Batman with prep time, versus the mighty Doctor Doom, yes.
Also, I'm glad they killed Bruce Wayne, it was time for someone else to take up the Mantle of the Bat. If I had my say with American Comics this sort of thing would happen more frequently. Rather than just run the same stories over and over and over...
And that way you don't get **** like One More Day.
How'd it pan out though? I knew they were killing Wayne off, but I don't know any of the details.
And yeah, One More Day was just... just... ugh.
I'll ask my friend (he's a big comic geek thanks to him I don't need to read em hehe)
I have that friend. His name is Wikipedia. He's being useless right now though.
On the other topic, I stopped reading DC when it was turning into "Oh we can't figure out which continuity we like so...Crisis!", shame that Marvel is slowly going down that same broken road... :sad:
With enough prep, Bats can kill anyone, however let us not forget Victor Von Doom is one of the most brilliant minds in the Marvel universe, a true master in both the sciences and the arcane. He can fight against superhero teams by himself and usually come out just fine.
This is what I'm saying. Now, I'm not saying Batman would lose, but this is a hell of a match-up. I'm almost inclined to agree with the Cap'n. It might just go on forever.
here it is.
Basically it comes down to Darkseid doing his thing.
Batman shoots him with a gun loaded with the god killing bullet, and Darkseid (side whatever) fried him with his Omega rays (the laser eyes)
It's cooler than that really but that's the best that I remember the conversation.
Also, I'm glad they killed Bruce Wayne, it was time for someone else to take up the Mantle of the Bat.
You shut your filthy mouth. Batman is what it is because it's still Bruce Wayne.
He represents a known quantity and thus doesn't need to be constantly reintroduced to readers like the Titans or whoever; everyone knows him, knows why he's Batman and knows what to expect from him. Nevermind that everyone who would potentially take up the mantle already has their own gig (unless you really want some high school kid to be Batman, and even Robin has his own niche at this point).
In a lot of cases, I agree that a lineup change can do a lot of good. In this specific case, the entire mythos is built around the man and not the mask. Removing him would be to remove virtually all of what makes a Batman story a Batman story.
I don't see Bruce when I see the Bat. I see the Bat masquerading as Bruce when the mask is not on.
As long as the writing is there, and the character who takes up the Sacred Mantle is worthy of being The Bat. So much the better.
After all, you were fine with Batman Beyond yes?
I don't know, I think the Mantle Of The Bat, is beyond Bruce Wayne at this point.
This quote is incompatable with this one, Micha;
I don't see Bruce when I see the Bat. I see the Bat masquerading as Bruce when the mask is not on.
Batman's not a title or a superteam. He's one man with a long history of emotional trauma, over-ambitious ideas about justice and an approach to life that is so focused as to be almost inhuman. You can't slap the cowl on someone else and call them Batman. It just doesn't work.
As long as the writing is there, and the character who takes up the Sacred Mantle is worthy of being The Bat. So much the better.
I could see a decent arc of Dick trying to live up to Bruce's legacy and tearing himself apart, ending with him giving up and hanging up the cowl for his Nightwing persona. Then when Bruce comes back they can have a heart to heart where he tells Dick that it's just as hard for him or something.
There's just no one who exists in-universe who's ready to step in for Bruce, both in terms of capability and characterization. The only one close is Barbara, and that's only if she brings all the Birds as well.
After all, you were fine with Batman Beyond yes?
Never watched it, actually. I'm pretty much comics only, with an appreciation for some of the films.
Give him time to grow into the role and develop and he'd fit the bill perfectly.
It'd be an interesting opportunity for DC, we'd get to see The Bat, start his ascent to being The Second Bat God.
I could see Dick pulling it off though. I mean hell like I said he's Bruce the Second.
Give him time to grow into the role and develop and he'd fit the bill perfectly.
It'd be an interesting opportunity for DC, we'd get to see The Bat, start his ascent to being The Second Bat God.
Dick's like Bruce Wayne 2.0
What? Dick's practically sunshine and butterflies when you compare him to Bruce. He doesn't have the drive or the same dedication as Bruce, and he definitely doesn't have the same darkness. He's good in his own right, but he's not Batman.
Honestly, no more often than Batman really appears to most of the criminal element, they're probably better off not trying to replace him and just being the same Gotham Knights they've always been. Let the legend live on it's own even if the man it's based on is dead.
If Bruce Wayne is dead, then there really doesn't need to be another Batman. With all the people he's trained, they can handle things for themselves without resorting to becoming pretenders to the cape.
No one else has been the Bat for that long. That's why. Let that Mantle and the toll of playing the Part wear and tear. I bet you'd be dark and jaded too in a few years after playing the role of The Bat.
Not that Darksied is beyond the capability, but... Wayne deserved a lot more than that. BAH!
If anyone were to take up the mantle, by the way, I'd actually say Tim Drake. (He's still alive, right?)
He'd need time, of course, but damn he was always a hell of a detective.
It's a massive Xanatos Gambit. Calling it.
Darksied? That's it? He's dead because Darksied eye-lasers him?
At least it wasn't such nonsense like suffocating in space. Like anyone would believe it.
Batman -chose- to die. He didn't bother trying to move or anything, literally he -let- Ds off him. At least from what I was told.
That's because everyone's sparkles and sunshine compared to the bat.
No one else has been the Bat for that long. That's why. Let that Mantle and the toll of playing the Part wear and tear. I bet you'd be dark and jaded too in a few years after playing the role of The Bat.
Some of it's the miles, but Bruce started broken. And he's got a mind that always seems to find the darkest solution to every problem that doesn't involve killing.
The real crux of the issue is that he's got almost a dozen disciples out there that embody some specific part of him and one of them specifically taking up the mantle means that they're leaving all the other parts out in the cold. Barbara's the brains, Dick's the natural athletic ability, Tim's the detective work and leadership skills, Huntress is the rage, etc.
They'd be better off using his 3 or so titles as collective "bat books" for all the others, rather than trying to install one of them as Batman.
Batman's faking his death in order to lure out a villain that will try to take over Gotham/the world in his absence.
It's a massive Xanatos Gambit. Calling it.
Oh, he's coming back, yeah.
A massive Xanatos Gambit would definately be like Bruce, but the 'Batman is dead' thing is sticking for awhile, isn't it? I swear I heard that this Wayne-is-dead deal was going to reach as far as 2010.
At least it wasn't such nonsense like suffocating in space. Like anyone would believe it.
Well, duh.
Darksied? That's it? He's dead because Darksied eye-lasers him?
Not that Darksied is beyond the capability, but... Wayne deserved a lot more than that. BAH!
Darksied damn near killed him in Bats/Supes a year or so back. Bruce wound up breaking most of the bones in his body before bluffing his way out with planted explosives.
If anyone were to take up the mantle, by the way, I'd actually say Tim Drake. (He's still alive, right?)
He'd need time, of course, but damn he was always a hell of a detective.
After Future Imperfect, there's no way Tim's becoming the Batman. His vision of him in the Future shook him too bad.
That would take it's toll and change the psyche in fairly short order I'd think. I mean, Dick just lost both sets of his parents effectively... That's bound to scar him up abit. (or did they retcon his parents death at some point and I don't know it?) ontop of that if he takes up The Cowl, that means he's gotta try and act like the man he hated for so long, which is bound to make him grumpy darker and more temperamental in some ways.
I heard Azrael is poking his head around, is that true?
And in unrelated speculation when the **** is wonder woman getting new armor?
Yes the scene is cooler than I'm describing it, I think. (I haven't seen it personally so you're getting a copy of a copy so to speak)
Batman -chose- to die. He didn't bother trying to move or anything, literally he -let- Ds off him. At least from what I was told.
Darkseid used the Omega Sanctum, not the Omega Beams, the Sanctum is undodgeable and Bats knew that, but he still succeeded in doing what he set out to do.
So what did Wayne 'win' by offing himself to Darkseid? What was the mastermindly 'catch'?
With a god killing bullet.
So in theory he just one upped something Superman couldn't do. Killing him permenately.
Anyway, he's neither replaceable, nor dead, so it doesn't really matter.
He killed Darkseid?
With a literal bullet?
Batman killed, with a gun?
Who the f*** is this Grant Morrison?
(Also: Seriously? Darkseid is dead? Dead dead? That's, um. Huge.)
That being, getting sent back in time and having someone else replace him in his body and dying instead. The bat is not dead.
Just a thought.
Two, he even mentions that he doesn't like using guns at the time he did it too from what I heard.
Ps :P Bat's has been responsible for many people's deaths
Ah but whomever is his replacement (As if it's anyone but Dick right?) is going to have to -think like the Bat- in every given situation in how he interacts with people, if they are to try and pull it off as if The Bat God never died.
Dick is waaaaayy to obvious to be a done deal. Even if they do replace him and it does turn out to be Dick, there are going to be others making claims (some more legitimately than others) if Bruce's death leaks. Jason Todd will probably be first in line. Jean Valley was already Batman once, back when he didn't trust Dick to do it. Bats had a kid with Talia, and those folks have a history of not really being dead when you think they are so he might make an appearance.
Of all of them, I'd expect Cassandra to be the one who could actually take the mantle and hold it. She practically worshipped Bruce, and none of the other Batfolks could take her if she decided to.
That would take it's toll and change the psyche in fairly short order I'd think. I mean, Dick just lost both sets of his parents effectively... That's bound to scar him up abit. (or did they retcon his parents death at some point and I don't know it?) ontop of that if he takes up The Cowl, that means he's gotta try and act like the man he hated for so long, which is bound to make him grumpy darker and more temperamental in some ways.
I could see that happening, but I just don't buy it as an arc. Particularly if they're bringing Batman back, and it's DC so that's practically a given.
I heard Azrael is poking his head around, is that true?
I've only been reading Outsiders directly, with other stuff in trades as they come out. I would be very surprised if they were doing a "Batman's gone" arc and didn't include the original Bat replacement, though. He even made an appearance during the Bruce Wayne: Murderer arc.
And if he's going to go out, there are worse ways than taking down freaking Darkseid (who had enslaved at least most of Earth, if not more, with the Anti-Life Formula at that point).
Anyways, I agree with Batshido's view. If they're not going to have Bruce as Batman, have the rest of the "crew" be working with the same identities, trying to shore up the gap, etc.
As for Batman Beyond: It was really good. It was also Bruce being Batman still; he just did it via proxy through Terry. Well, that and complaining about his heart, the old geezer. But seriously. He's always analyzing Terry's fights and giving him advice. There's even an episode where he know's he's hearing a broadcasted voice to his head, because it calls him "Bruce", and that's not what he calls himself in his head.
*Pauses*
*Realizes Batshido's probably still reading the thread*
Um, I mean, uh, all respect to Bruce. And stuff. Yeah.
Please don't make me go through the trainer on level 8 again.
Um, wait.
He killed Darkseid?
With a literal bullet?
Batman killed, with a gun?
Who the f*** is this Grant Morrison?
(Also: Seriously? Darkseid is dead? Dead dead? That's, um. Huge.)
It was Darkseid, I'm pretty sure Bats is going to drop his no killing/No guns policy for a guy who was rewriting the existence around earth and was murdering millions.
I wonder what will Joker do now. He lost the meaning of his life!
Well, probably go into a numb catatonia. No more laughs, no more smiles.
Until one day on the news, he hears that Batman might just be back.
And then the laughter starts again...
Of all of them, I'd expect Cassandra to be the one who could actually take the mantle and hold it. She practically worshipped Bruce, and none of the other Batfolks could take her if she decided to.
Thats who I'm hoping takes the mantle, her or Tim.
There's even an episode where he know's he's hearing a broadcasted voice to his head, because it calls him "Bruce", and that's not what he calls himself in his head.
This is something he's done in the comics too.
"How did you know those weren't just dreams?"
"Because in my dreams, no one calls me "Bruce."
*Pauses*
*Realizes Batshido's probably still reading the thread*
Um, I mean, uh, all respect to Bruce. And stuff. Yeah.
Please don't make me go through the trainer on level 8 again.
Fine.
Level 9 it is.
Thats who I'm hoping takes the mantle, her or Tim.
Tim won't. It's too far out, after what he saw in that alternate future. He's been swearing up and down that he wouldn't become Bruce since, he's not going to jump into the cowl anytime soon.
Tim won't. It's too far out, after what he saw in that alternate future. He's been swearing up and down that he wouldn't become Bruce since, he's not going to jump into the cowl anytime soon.
What happened in the alternate future? I missed out on that.
This is something he's done in the comics too.
"How did you know those weren't just dreams?"
"Because in my dreams, no one calls me "Bruce."
I think in the cartoon, the dialogue was something like this:
Terry: "How did you know it wasn't just your subconscious?"
Bruce: "Because it kept calling me "Bruce". That's not what I call myself in my head."
*Pause*
T: "Yeah, but that's me now, not you."
B, with sarcastic grin "Tell that to my subconcisous."
Fine.
Level 9 it is.
Oh, goo....wait, 9? Oh man! No fair!
*goes off grumbling*
*sounds of pain are soon heard*
One of these days old man!
What happened in the alternate future? I missed out on that.
The Titans (in their current lineup at the time) had effectively taken over the country. Tim was Batman, and he had developed a habit of executing criminals (or anyone who was a threat to his power) with the gun he'd taken from Bruce before he killed him with it; the same gun that killed the Waynes.
It was pretty messed up. Tim made it a bit of a personal crusade (ironically, a very Bruce-like move) to make sure he didn't become that, or stray too close to Bruce's darkness in general.
All so, in Batman 666 was Damien the one who had taken up the mantle of the Bat?
The Titans (in their current lineup at the time) had effectively taken over the country. Tim was Batman, and he had developed a habit of executing criminals (or anyone who was a threat to his power) with the gun he'd taken from Bruce before he killed him with it; the same gun that killed the Waynes.
It was pretty messed up. Tim made it a bit of a personal crusade (ironically, a very Bruce-like move) to make sure he didn't become that, or stray too close to Bruce's darkness in general.
To elaborate, 1/2 of the country is under control of Tim, Superboy, and some others, who are all nice and GrimDark and such. The other half is under the control of Cyborg and some allies, who oppose the GrimDark methods of their fellows.
Superboy is made GrimDark via: using Tactile TK to blow up Deathstroke the Terminator's arm during an interrogation, and referring to Lex Luthor as "Pa" and going to said "Pa" for advice.
It was pretty trippy, all told.
@ Batman 666 question: Yes, I believe it was Damien as the Bat.
I didn't care for Batman Beyond all that much, but the part about Batman having a heart murmur during a bust was brilliant. He picks up a gun and points it at a criminal as a last resort. Unsettles himself so bad he hangs up the mantle.
How'd Supes take it when Wayne got blasted?
EDIT: And is Wayne revealed as Batman now? How's Wayne Enterprises covering for Bruce's absence?
And like I said, this was one of the situations where it made perfect sense for him to use a gun.
I just can't see Batman pointing a gun. It's just not a brain-friendly image.
I can see him pointing one (he did it in DKR and on a couple of other occasions for tension purposes) just not using it. IT shook me up seeing Alfred fire a gun, let alone Batman. He's been confirmed to openly own one, as it was used to kill Vesper Fairchild and set him on his fugitive way for that arc.
How'd Supes take it when Wayne got blasted?
Given Supes' proclivity for coming back, he probably just finished whatever he was doing at the time. Death's kind of taken on a ho hum aspect in the DCU, mostly thanks to him.
And like I said, this was one of the situations where it made perfect sense for him to use a gun.
Bruce was only ever against taking life because of Dr. Thompson's pleas, and even then the implication was "human or near human life." He's helped destroy his fair share of cosmic forces bent on destruction, and I'd guess he just lumped Darksied in with those.
No, he specifically didn't die with the helicopter.
And if he's going to go out, there are worse ways than taking down freaking Darkseid (who had enslaved at least most of Earth, if not more, with the Anti-Life Formula at that point).
This happened in the Outsiders!? Batman didn't even get to go out in his own book?
I agree with Rake. This just doesn't sound appropriate. It feels very hostile towards the entire concept of Batman. Batman dies from a laserblast while shooting a gun at an alien. Does anything in that sentence sound right to you?
Don't get me wrong, I like seeing Batman team up with other superheroes, and I realize the threat has to be ramped up to make the adventure cool and dangerous for people who actually have super powers. But I always felt like Batman was at his best when the stories acknowledged that he was just a guy who was dealing with very human problems in an extraordinary way. Mega crossovers and those team books should be just for fun.
To me, there is no way to pass down the bat. Batman WAS Bruce Wayne.
They couldn't make another character take on the persona and fit it without basically making a clone of Bruce Wayne.
Anyone else trying to do it would just be a cheap imitation to me.
http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/Jonathan+Holmes/final-crisis-6-spoilers-nvgr--118081.phtml
Apparently there were some Batman clones, so maybe Wayne's not dead. Still, I like what this guy says:
"That's how Batman died? Really?" Chances are extremely high that Bruce Wayne will be back a live sometime in 2010, but that's not the point. I'm still holding out hope that it wasn't Batman who died, but one of those stupid clones Darkseid was making. But if that's not the case,if it was the Bruce Wayne who got killed like that, by waltzing up to the most powerful being on earth, making fun of him a little, then telling him "I'm going to shoot you now...", while not considering the potential escape plans necessary to try and get away with such an assassination...
I have to call this lame.
Okay, I found a description of some of the actual details. Here you go:
http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/Jonathan+Holmes/final-crisis-6-spoilers-nvgr--118081.phtml
Apparently there were some Batman clones, so maybe Wayne's not dead. Still, I like what this guy says:
I have to call this lame.
Seems like whoever wrote that didn't pay any attention to the FC at all to this point, Batman was basically physically and mentally tortured the whole time he was captured by DS's scientist after RIP, the cloning experiemnts failed, they couldn't even make one.
I wonder what will Joker do now. He lost the meaning of his life!
He will pretend to be batman untill batman shows up agian.
From what I've read, it looks like the issue isn't going to be restoring Bruce's body, but getting his soul back. It sounds to me like the Omega Sanctum is both a killing move and a soul-torturing move. Restoring a dead body to perfectly full health is easy in the DC Universe (reviving someone from the gunk on the bottom of someone's shoe I heard was done before). Getting his soul back from an alternate pocket reality where it lives increasingly worse and worse lives and deaths is a bit harder to do. And even then, he's going to have a lot of mental issues to cope with.
Will the Batman be back? Most definitely. I'd also agree with the 2010-ish time of him returning; it may not be a year in DC Universe time, but it will be a difficult journey, since they'll also probably revive a couple of other people who died during Final Crisis while going to get Batman.
And the last time Batman disappeared, the Joker went into a comatose state and stayed that way until he heard that Batman had returned. I suspect he'll either do that, or he may even particpate in rescuing him. Hey, the dude's gotta get his laughs somehow, what better way to get them than by rescuing your longest rival and having him owe you one?
Gaiman's taking over next (Feb or March); everything will be fine. :D
Until it's revealed that the Waynes were actually members of the fae's Winter Court sent to sabotage Gotham and turn their adopted orphan godling "Bruce" (stolen from Big Barda after being conceived in a tumultuous affair with Darksied himself and prophesied to bring about the end of the universe) into an unrepentant weapon for their intercene warring with the Summer Court.
Getting his soul back from an alternate pocket reality where it lives increasingly worse and worse lives and deaths is a bit harder to do.
It's as hard as asking the Spectre politely.
Also, I could see them working the Dick Grayson angle.
And we all know what happens with trying to avoid destiny. Come on guys it's the oldest Trope in the Book. You avoid your Destiny, you become it. Whatever means you attempt it becomes you. Tim's Destiny is to Become The Bat. Through and Through. Whether that Bat would be for good or Ill , remains to be seen. But mark my words. One day Tim Will Become The Bat God.
And yeah, I could see the Joker searching for Bruce's soul.. it'd be hilarious.
Batman as a fey.. suddenly Bat God jokes make such a terrible amount of sense....Until it's revealed that the Waynes were actually members of the fae's Winter Court sent to sabotage Gotham and turn their adopted orphan godling "Bruce" (stolen from Big Barda after being conceived in a tumultuous affair with Darksied himself and prophesied to bring about the end of the universe) into an unrepentant weapon for their intercene warring with the Summer Court.
Oh no, I've gone cross eyed.
Oh no, I've gone cross eyed.
I love Gaiman's work, but it'll do that.
He's pathologically incapable of writing anything that doesn't involve some supernatural force of nature who is unaware of their importance in the grand scheme of things. And the trippier he can get, the more he seems to enjoy it.
Corrolary prediction; it will somehow involve Swamp Thing. Neil loves him some Swamp Thing.
Corrolary prediction; it will somehow involve Swamp Thing. Neil loves him some Swamp Thing.
There have been some cool Swamp Thing/Batman crossovers in the past, so I'm all for that.
I hope the Swamp Thing in question is Tefé, though. I like Alec Holland a lot, but I feel his story has pretty much run its course now that he's been made the anthropomorphized embodiment of the entire planet.
–––––––––
Has anybody read anything directly from DC? Are they acknowledging that Batman's death is just a story hook for them to explore other characters' relationships to him, and the impact of his loss on the DC universe, or are they actually pretending like they did with Superman that he's Really Gone.
I think when somebody should just do a global search in superhero comic books and replace the word "dead" with "gone away for a long time." It's functionally the same thing, as invariably "dead" characters show up alive and well, and they often had all kinds of conscious experiences and adventures in whatever ersatz heaven or hell that they were in. In the real world, whatever your religion, "dead" means "gone forever." The word has been so thoroughly repurposed in superhero comics that characters are actually blase about death. (Peter David is using this to good effect in X-Factor, where Siryn is convinced that her father's death is only a temporary setback, since he's an X-Man and death is like taking a year sabbatical for those guys.)
This is one of the things I think Joss Whedon did best with his X-Men run. As far as the comics are concerned, hurtling through the vacuum of space trapped inside a giant bullet is exactly the same as if Kitty Pryde were simply shot in the head. She's missing. She's out of the main characters' lives. We know she'll come back, and when she does she'll have stories and experiences to share as if she'd been alive and awake the whole time (just like "dead" characters). But in the meantime, it's functionally identical to comic book death.
The exceptions, as always, are Barry Allen and Jason Todd. Those guys are dead.
There have been some cool Swamp Thing/Batman crossovers in the past, so I'm all for that.
I hope the Swamp Thing in question is Tefé, though. I like Alec Holland a lot, but I feel his story has pretty much run its course now that he's been made the anthropomorphized embodiment of the entire planet.
–––––––––
Has anybody read anything directly from DC? Are they acknowledging that Batman's death is just a story hook for them to explore other characters' relationships to him, and the impact of his loss on the DC universe, or are they actually pretending like they did with Superman that he's Really Gone.
I think when somebody should just do a global search in superhero comic books and replace the word "dead" with "gone away for a long time." It's functionally the same thing, as invariably "dead" characters show up alive and well, and they often had all kinds of conscious experiences and adventures in whatever ersatz heaven or hell that they were in. In the real world, whatever your religion, "dead" means "gone forever." The word has been so thoroughly repurposed in superhero comics that characters are actually blase about death. (Peter David is using this to good effect in X-Factor, where Siryn is convinced that her father's death is only a temporary setback, since he's an X-Man and death is like taking a year sabbatical for those guys.)
This is one of the things I think Joss Whedon did best with his X-Men run. As far as the comics are concerned, hurtling through the vacuum of space trapped inside a giant bullet is exactly the same as if Kitty Pryde were simply shot in the head. She's missing. She's out of the main characters' lives. We know she'll come back, and when she does she'll have stories and experiences to share as if she'd been alive and awake the whole time (just like "dead" characters). But in the meantime, it's functionally identical to comic book death.
The exceptions, as always, are Barry Allen and Jason Todd. Those guys are dead.
No they're not. Not anymore. They are both alive. I think Uncle Freakin' Ben is the only comics person to stay dead.
I hope the Swamp Thing in question is Tefé, though. I like Alec Holland a lot, but I feel his story has pretty much run its course now that he's been made the anthropomorphized embodiment of the entire planet.
Holland is the version that Gaiman likes, for exactly the reasons you've stated. Most likely he'll be the one who "finds" Bruce and alerts others that he still exists somewhere.
The exceptions, as always, are Barry Allen and Jason Todd. Those guys are dead.
Oh yeah. Just like Bucky.
Show
No. No, they're not.
It's as hard as asking the Spectre politely.
Problem with that, the current Spectre is well....a dick *Which is saying alot, even when Hal was the Spectre he was dick, the current Spectre is a total D-Bag after what he made Crispin do to his son*
ShowNo. No, they're not.
He will, of course, attempt to restore his parents to life as well, but he will be given a vision of them in some sort of heaven and realize that he can't take them away from that.
Sadly, given some of the other stuff Batman's already done, I'm not even sure if I'm joking at this point.
To say nothing of what I want to do to him because of Spiderman.
It involves a
a a two coupled with sixteen with his mother while his dad with two along with everyone who has ever influenced his life and .It's not fair damnit. DC gets to have good writing involving character death.. instead we get the
moron that can't even spell a name correctly without ruining a story.****ing Buckey.. I HATE HIM Always have hated him. Always will. That he DARES Insult the Cap by wearing the uniform, and bearing the shield just makes me want to go find the Mexican (whatever his name really is I don't care. He's not worthy of a name. Hell he only has an ethnicity because it just makes him stand out from the crowd at Marvel I bet by virtue of skin color), and beat him to death with a brick in a sock.
To say nothing of what I want to do to him because of Spiderman.
It involves a
It's not fair damnit. DC gets to have good writing involving character death.. instead we get the
I just want to point out the irony in this.
Batman's just a cape, but Captain America is sacred.
Uh huh.
I just want to point out the irony in this.
Batman's just a cape, but Captain America is sacred.
Uh huh.
Buckey's not even genetically engineered.
Captain America, is a concept. Just like the Bats it's not his death that bothers me. It's the lame joke they are replacing him with (who also looks like he's injected Roids since he was five) coupled with some out and out terrible writing.
It's totally different scenario really.
I mean hell, if there was a female supersoldier that believed in the ideals of the USA like Cap, heck she can be a goth for all I care lookswise or whatever, you know what? If she took up the mantle Okay.
(Providing well... the current story arc didn't happen in any way shape or form and that the writing and editing is there.. unlike well what we have presently)
Buckey's not even genetically engineered.
Captain America, is a concept. Just like the Bats it's not his death that bothers me. It's the lame joke they are replacing him with (who also looks like he's injected Roids since he was five)
So Batman's kid sidekick who set off on his own is all good to replace him, but Captain America's kid sidekick who set off on his own is a poser and should dig a hole and die in it.
Hypocrisy, thy name is...
So Batman's kid sidekick who set off on his own is all good to replace him, but Captain America's kid sidekick who set off on his own is a poser and should dig a hole and die in it.
Hypocrisy, thy name is...
But Cap's sidekick worked for Russia! And he's edgy, or something!
So Batman's kid sidekick who set off on his own is all good to replace him, but Captain America's kid sidekick who set off on his own is a poser and should dig a hole and die in it.
Hypocrisy, thy name is...
You can't really make an argument out of this you know ;) Dick's at least been trained from the ground up by the Bat. Buckey hell he's been dead for how long? I mean damn. Ontop of that, what makes the Bat, Bat isn't the SUPERSOLDIER SERUM you know?
That's part of what makes Cap, Cap.
Dick's not been a Lame Side Kick for the past 30+ years (or however long that doofus has been in comic lexicon) like Buckey has. Dick's been His Own Hero, a solitary one ontop of that. Just like good ol Bats is most of the time. I mean hell, Dick's a cut off the block almost perfectly in may respects (including womanizing) Dick's at least an Alpha.
Buckey is a retarded submissive moron by nature. He's a Lame Side Kick.
Lame Side Kicks do not make Heroes. Ever.
You can't really make an argument out of this you know ;) Dick's at least been trained from the ground up by the Bat. Buckey hell he's been dead for how long? I mean damn. Ontop of that, what makes the Bat Bat isn't the SUPERSOLDIER SERUM you know?
That's part of what makes Cap, Cap.
Buckey was hardcore before he hooked up with Cap, and he did how many tours behind enemy lines fighting supervillains again?
Captain America is a symbol, a soldier and a shield. Bucky's got all 3. He's got every right to try to live up to Steve's legacy here.
Super Soldier Serum is what turned Steve Rogers into a super soldier, but Captain America is so much more than that at this point. Bucky's got the training, the drive, the skills and the savior complex to make it as Cap.
And for the record, Steve Rogers is my second favorite comic book character, right behind Batman. I felt like Brubaker handled his death and the aftermath superbly. It's the only Marvel book I still pick up.
I don't know.. that name alone. Buckey.. just puts it off for me.
Thank you.
We're supposed to take this character seriously? His name is Buckey.
It's the only Marvel book I still pick up.
Don't care for Amazing Spidey? I still like both Amazing and Ultimate, even if Ultimate's been kinda dumb lately (looking at you, Carnage).
That's part of what makes Cap so cool to me. Buckey... god that name... let alone most every portrayl I've seen of the doofus.
Thank you.
We're supposed to take this character seriously? His name is Buckey.
Actually, his name is James Buchanan Barnes, as I recall.
His nickname from "back in the day" is Bucky.
There is a difference.
I mean, everyone seems to be ok with calling Richard Grayson "Dick". But "Bucky" isn't serious enough?
His name is Buckey.
Actually, his name is James. James Barnes.
Nobody's called him "Buckey" since the 40's, unless they were being purposely ironic.
Don't care for Amazing Spidey? I still like both Amazing and Ultimate, even if Ultimate's been kinda dumb lately (looking at you, Carnage).
I just don't have time to look at them. I go for what I know I'll like (Outsiders, Batman, Cap and used-to-be Iron Fist) and skip the rest.
I loved the first couple runs of the Ultimates, but I just can't get into it with the new art style and goofy Ultron stuff.
Actually, his name is James Buchanan Barnes, as I recall.
His nickname from "back in the day" is Bucky.
There is a difference.
I mean, everyone seems to be ok with calling Richard Grayson "Dick". But "Bucky" isn't serious enough?
"Pretty Bird"
Robin/Nightwing/Crutches' real name is "Pretty Bird."
Alternatively: "The Boy Hostage"
Actually, his name is James. James Barnes.
Nobody's called him "Buckey" since the 40's, unless they were being purposely ironic.
I just don't have time to look at them. I go for what I know I'll like (Outsiders, Batman, Cap and used-to-be Iron Fist) and skip the rest.
I loved the first couple runs of the Ultimates, but I just can't get into it with the new art style and goofy Ultron stuff.
The current Ultimates is crap. Ultimate Spider-Man is better, but yeah, Carnage is pretty lame. It's like a secondary superpower that character has.
Amazing Spider-Man has been pretty good lately, but I just can't bring myself to buy it. I really, really don't like the direction they've taken, even if the individual issues are well written.
And seriously? Where *****ing about how Bucky can't be Cap because of his name and the fact that he didn't take the Super Soldier serum? Something that pretty much stopped being super important to Caps character years ago?
Considering that James Barnes has a freaking bionic arm, and is himself in top human shape, I doubt we see much, if any, difference in ability for Cap.
When ever I start to worry about D&D campaigns...or 4e abstraction...or how Resurrection mechanics interrupt narrative flow and world feasibility...
...I always look at DC/Marvel continuity and think to myself "cheer up buddy - it could be worse". :P
[Preface: I am a very incidental comic aficionado, and not very up to date at all - do not consider my general opinions informed.]
I love Gaiman, and like Morrison a lot - but I'm with Batshido on this one. There's no way to replace Bruce Wayne as Batman. I can definitely see it as an arc where Dick or someone tries to take it up and deals with all the issues, but he'll be back. It's a given. Something in the water over in DC-ville makes folks physically incapable of permanent death.
I know nothing about the Darkseid thing, but I also hope they did the "Batman kills a guy with a gun" thing well. Not that I don't think Batman would decided he had to (it's friggin' Darkseid) - but it would have to be handled with awesome kid gloves.
I can't really weigh in on Captain America (as I read much less of it than Bats), though I always liked him as a symbol (especially with the "shield used as defense and offense" idea) - as long as Bucky can carry that symbol (and never use his lame nick again), I'm satisfied.
If the message of the new Cap is "you don't even need a supersoldier serum to be a hero - just have to want and fight for it", I honestly don't think that's a bad message.
Sidenote: Did anyone ever play a D&D character with the offensive Shield feats like Shield Throw, with levels of Bloodstorm Blade from ToB? And call themselves Captain America? Always wanted to do that... :P
Also, I keep meaning to track down Swamp Thing and read that sucka. I've got Sandman, Books of Magic, all that good stuff, so I think I'd like it.
Batshido - You should probably check out Batman Beyond. I own all of Batman the Animated Series as it was so awesome, and Beyond is actually good stuff - not as good as BtAS (Beyond kinda butchered Mr. Freeze and a few other concepts, IMO), but still very much worth the watch.
No, see, what's really ironic is that as I recall, the mainstream Marvel super serum didn't give superhuman abilities per se. It simply pushed Steve up to the upper limit of human ability. He got from some chemicals and "vita-rays" what took Bruce Wayne years of effort. They're really about equal, physical ability wise.
Considering that James Barnes has a freaking bionic arm, and is himself in top human shape, I doubt we see much, if any, difference in ability for Cap.
Bats and Cap have fought to a draw in every crossover so far. Once in their civies, even.
Captain America's stats in the old Marvel Adventure Game were right at the cusp of "Superhuman" levels, but they made a point of saying that he wasn't "Super Strong," just peak human. Barnes is at least that strong, with his Bionic Arm giving him a leg up I would guess.
Sidenote: Did anyone ever play a D&D character with the offensive Shield feats like Shield Throw, with levels of Bloodstorm Blade from ToB? And call themselves Captain America? Always wanted to do that... :P
The one campaign where I actually got to play as opposed to DM after ToB came out this is exactly what I did. I didn't go Bloodstorm Blade, though; It was just a returning shield. I had all the shield bash and unarmed attack feats, including snap kick, so I was tearing it up with my Fighter/Paladin/Warblade in hand to hand. White Raven maneuvers did a really good job of making it feel like Cap with the Avengers. Of course, in 4E he'd be a Warlord with Fighter multiclass....
Batshido - You should probably check out Batman Beyond. I own all of Batman the Animated Series as it was so awesome, and Beyond is actually good stuff - not as good as BtAS (Beyond kinda butchered Mr. Freeze and a few other concepts, IMO), but still very much worth the watch.
I'll see about getting that Netflixed, then. I tend to use TV for news and The Daily Show, with Always Sunny and Futurama and such to keep me sane. I suppose I can add one more show in there, especially if I do it before Whedon's new series premieres...
It's one of the reasons I'm fairly confident in the Bat's ability to have trained someone well enough over the course of -almost their entire life- to take over once he's gone if he can get Terry into a decent Batman in short order.
As for Cap, I think it's the whole "His nickname ends in a Y". I have a hard time thinking super hero when someone is nicknamed anything ending with a Y. If Dick's nickname had been Ricky we'd probably be at the same discussion about NightWing taking the Bat Cowl, as we are about Steroid Boi taking up the Cap's Shield.
Why would you say Barnes is as strong as Cap? Cap's litterally better than an Olympic Athlete in every field! I guess if you count Barnes's apparent Steroid Problem you might be right.
Also... Barnes is far too bulky looking in the art I've seen him in as the new Cap. And... why is that sissy holding a gun?
Another reason I dislike Buckey as the Captain, is probably partially (or lots) due to the fact that really to me Cap's death seems just so -forced- to carry out this horrible over story Marvel has going (which helped tie into One More Day.... I better put the brick down while I still can)
Also, the Jusice League cartoon is totally worth it.
"Great, what did they used to call it? Stereo?"
:P
It's all good. Even Superman. And I don't even like Superman.
As for Cap, I think it's the whole "His nickname ends in a Y". I have a hard time thinking super hero when someone is nicknamed anything ending with a Y. If Dick's nickname had been Ricky we'd probably be at the same discussion about NightWing taking the Bat Cowl, as we are about Steroid Boi taking up the Cap's Shield.
Why would you say Barnes is as strong as Cap? Cap's litterally better than an Olympic Athlete in every field! I guess if you count Barnes's apparent Steroid Problem you might be right.
Strange, I'd been calling Cap 'Captain Steroids' for a few years now. Let's face it - Super Soldier Serum was pretty much steroids on, well, steroids, but without any seeming side effects. Must make PSAs hard on ol' Cap.:
"Kids, don't do drugs!"
"But we want to be a superhero like you!"
"... Crap"
Alternately, you can run that old 'I learned it from YOU!' commercial they aired about drug use back in the day. Same basic effect.
That picture of Barnes in the Cap suit that I saw though makes the Hulk look wimpy. For one his hand was larger than the handgun he was holding (I mean like double the size or damn close to it)
This is what I'm saying. Now, I'm not saying Batman would lose, but this is a hell of a match-up. I'm almost inclined to agree with the Cap'n. It might just go on forever.
Probably too late for this, but what the heck. Batman and his sidekick against a far superior opponent.
www.biggercheese.com/index.php?comic=608
:P
Batshido should just Netflix all of the Batman Animated Series saga.
It's all good. Even Superman. And I don't even like Superman.
Superman I thought was just so-so, but watchable. Honestly my favorite bit was when Batman got kidnapped and Supes had to masquerade as him in Gotham for a bit. The look on Mad Hatters face when "Batman" threw Bane through a wall...priceless!
But yeah, nearly all that stuff is "watchably good". My hierarchy of quality goes like this:
#1 - Batman: the Animated Series (old animation is better than new)
#2 - Batman Beyond
#3 - Justice League Unlimited
#4 - Justice League (though you should actually watch this before JLU)
#5 - Superman
If there's others, I don't know of 'em. I stay as far away from The Batman cartoon as possible.
EDIT: The later seasons of Teen Titans were actually really good, too. I'd prolly put them at 3 or so.
And I was just as skeptical at the beginning.
Oh also, Avatar is surprisingly great.
I can understand if the art style isn't quite for everyone, but I didn't have much trouble with it, and the voice actors are all solid. And after about halfway through the season, it really finds its place. Also, Batman just keeps on getting more awesome. I love it when he starts working with the Justice League people in the last season or two.
Also, help me win a bet: Batman vs. Dr. Doom?
Impossible. No living mortal could comprehend the machinations and schemes that would be involved in a Batman vs Dr. Doom fight. Much like Cthulhu the human mind is not prepared for that sort of thing.
Impossible. No living mortal could comprehend the machinations and schemes that would be involved in a Batman vs Dr. Doom fight. Much like Cthulhu the human mind is not prepared for that sort of thing.
Dude, I know. It'd be an awesome match-up. Does anyone know if this has ever been done?
Dude, I know. It'd be an awesome match-up. Does anyone know if this has ever been done?
Not that I know of, and I'd like to think that if my favorite Superhero and Supervillain squared off I'd have known about it. :P
It would be madeningly beautiful; industrial espionage, political maneuvering, fist fights, a war or two, orbital bombardment, alternate dimensions, Superman/Richards looking like a putz, space combat, fizzled superweapons, deathtraps that didn't suck, robotic doubles by the dozens, etc.
The mind positively boggles.
Not that I know of, and I'd like to think that if my favorite Superhero and Supervillain squared off I'd have known about it. :P
It would be madeningly beautiful; industrial espionage, political maneuvering, fist fights, a war or two, orbital bombardment, alternate dimensions, Superman/Richards looking like a putz, space combat, fizzled superweapons, deathtraps that didn't suck, robotic doubles by the dozens, etc.
The mind positively boggles.
You forgot the power armors.
Uh, Sir. :embarrass
You forgot the power armors.
Uh, Sir. :embarrass
Speaking of, looks like it could use a good polish.
Just use the stuff you did the Batmobile with Friday.
Speaking of, looks like it could use a good polish.
Just use the stuff you did the Batmobile with Friday.
Yeah, sure Bruce.
Muttered
Grumpy old man. Probably forgot his kidney meds again. And his heart meds always crank his goat...*Grumbling*
http://www.electricferret.com/fights/issue_171.htm
Unfortunately, the consensus over there seems to be that Doom takes the win hands-down, and while I don't necessarily disagree that he could win - he is, I would agree, the king of the non-cosmic/diefic supervillains, the assertion that Doom is, and I quote, "much, much, much smarter than Batman" isn't even debatably accurate. Granted, Doom is the better scientist, but I'm pretty sure Bruce is a lot more devious and clever.
I know Doom has conquered Earth before, in continuity, more than once. I know Doom has the tech, and the magic, and the army. But Doom is basically just Ras Al Guhl with a lot more stuff, and Bats always beats Ras (meanwhile even the Joker gets a victory now and then).
Plus: major psychological issues. Doom has a major hatred-bordering-obsession with Richards, an incredible vanity, and an ego the size of a planet. The dude speaks in the third person. That's a psychological weakness and a half over most of the Rogue's Gallery, and Bats would be all over that. Getting in Doom's head, making him make mistakes. Also: pretty sure Batman wouldn't ever fall for the old 'it was just a Doombot!' ploy, so that's right out.
Plus, with his ego (and the fact that Doom takes on entire super-teams on a weekly basis and comes out on top), I almost guarantee that he'd initially underestimate Batman, which is just the kind of advantage that Bats likes to have.
I think the best thing Doom could do would be to figure out Bruce's identity. And if Riddler and Bane (and.. mm, who else?) can do it, Doom can do it. Now that would be big trouble for Bats.
I know Doom has conquered Earth before, in continuity, more than once.
Yeah, but that's because the heroes in the Marvel U are a bunch of well-meaning idiots.
Let's see him try that with Batman on the job, directing the ultrabeings of the DCU. Hell, the closest any human has come to conquering earth was Ras, and he did that with tech he stole from the Batcave.
Doom wouldn't last 15 minutes. Black Adam would probably kill him in the first act and use the machinations of Doom himself.
Though the Punisher versus Doom would be entertaining... as would Blade.
I personally think that the two would be practically fighting themselves more or less. They would be in an eternal struggle seeking to find a way to out prep time the other.
I mean, really what is it that stops Doom half the time? That Doofus Richards and whatever Plot Dev... I mean "invention" that just happened to be laying around this whole time after their powers some how fail to stop them.
Who is it that can stop Reed? Mr Plot Device Himself (Doom).
So really in effect you have hot Plot Device on Plot Device Action.
Given that currently DC has better written plots than Marvel over all I'd say in the current universe/story arc/whatever the Batman would eek out a victory.
Iron Man and the Non Buckey Captain America aside, I have to agree with Bats.
As much as I love Steve Rogers, he's purely reactive. Steve see threat, Steve smash threat. He doesn't have the long-term strategy chops to tangle with Doom (or Batman) and win. He's the best in the world at reacting and leading on the ground, immediate tactical engagement, but he's not the guy you want doing what is effectively long-term counterspy work.
Tony has never shown himself to be much of a planner. A genius, sure. And one hell of a business man. But he's not going to out maneuver Doom on a macro level.
I mean, these guys have access to a robot that can turn invisible and phase through walls, and they known next to nothing about any given threat until it's already eaten part of Manhattan. That's far enough below Bruce's standards as to have fallen off the bottom of the chart.
I can just see Tony, having airline tubing in his mouth, sucking on Jack Daniels while inside the Suit. Also for Stark to be as good as he is at business he'd be one hell of a macro planner when it comes to schemes... providing he stayed sober long enough.
But that's what makes Cap such a dangerous choice against Doom. There's one of two ways you defeat the All Planner in story arcs. Either through reactive strategies, or through out planning the Plotter. Failing that there is always the Hulk. :P
I think the best thing Doom could do would be to figure out Bruce's identity. And if Riddler and Bane (and.. mm, who else?) can do it, Doom can do it. Now that would be big trouble for Bats.
I assume Batman's identity is an open secret amongst the jet set of supervillains.
I think an awesome scene would be the meeting between Wayne and Lex Luthor where they finally put their chips on the table. Batman could expose Luthor, but obviously it would cost him everything. The two agree, tentatively, to keep what they have on each other secret from the public and their allies until such a time as one or the other has something so damning he can escape being taken down himself, or it makes the whole thing worth it.
If Doom exposed Batman, that would pretty much end them both, because Batman would have nothing to lose, and no veil of secrecy to constrain him. Can you say "Total War?" That castle would be a crater by the end of the week.
I assume Batman's identity is an open secret amongst the jet set of supervillains.
It's been confirmed (at least last I knew) that Luthor for sure doesn't know. Ras does, but he's not one to share secrets lightly. Nigma's the only Bat-villain that has any clue, outside of Bane who's gone crazy enough times that no one would believe him. David Cain knows, thanks to Ras.
On the heroes side, Supes and Bats both revealed themselves to the other members of the JLA at one point, but there's been a lot of mindwiping and dimensional issues recently so it remains to be seen if it took. The immediate family of Bat-folks (Babs, Dick, Tim and Cassandra) know. Superman has known for a long time, depending on the author.
Otherwise, the secret has been fairly well kept over the years. Even agencies like Checkmate who have employed people who knew still don't have that information institutionally.
What about Cable?
His whole messiah complex self-sacrificing plan from the Cable and Deadpool series was quite impressive at times.
As far as macroplanning in the Marvel Universe...
What about Cable?
His whole messiah complex self-sacrificing plan from the Cable and Deadpool series was quite impressive at times.
Cable's whole schtick has always been macro planning. Of course, he's always used time travel to do it, and Doom has demonstrated ways around that sort of thing.
Cable's probably their best shot, now that I think about it, but even he is out of his league when it comes to Doom. I mean, the man may be his own Great300 Grandfather.
But that's what makes Cap such a dangerous choice against Doom.
Cap? Hah. On his best day, Cap couldn't even beat Batman. In fact, the two fought to a standstill once, and if memory serves, the fight was purely that - a brawl. Batman didn't really prep, and didn't use any crazy gadgets. He just fought Cap to a standstill. Throw in Bat-level tricks or Doom-level tech and there's no way Cap comes out. Doom beats Cap.
Failing that there is always the Hulk. :P
Who immediately walks into a trap and ends up stranded on another dimension. :P
It's like DKR on crack. Strung out so far it's barely recognizable. Seriously, it bears so little resemblence to the mythos that I personally enjoy about Batman, but it's Frank Miller all over. Disturbingly so.
Blech.
It's been confirmed (at least last I knew) that Luthor for sure doesn't know.
…
Otherwise, the secret has been fairly well kept over the years. Even agencies like Checkmate who have employed people who knew still don't have that information institutionally.
Now that every member of the Black Glove knows, I don't expect it to stay too top secret. The Black Glove is surely an organization that Luthor would be aware of. They may not have courted Wayne because he was an inept goody-two-shoes with a trust fund, but they would surely have approached Luthor. (Who would have taken one look and said, "Yeah, you're all a bunch of loonies. I would literally rather team up with Gorilla Grodd than you wackos.") With that mean people driven by greed, thrills, and elitism, expect the secret to go up for sale to some very discerning buyers – who would be more than happy to keep it to themselves. Secrets are only useful as long as they're secrets, after all.
Frankly, it shatters my suspension of disbelief that after 15 years or so of gallivanting as Batman and all that entails, Wayne hasn't left a trail that somebody could follow. At the very least, the disappearance of Jason Todd simultaneous with the death of Robin would make some people start poking around. And what was Wayne doing for those first 15 years after his parents died, traveling the world with his butler? And when he disappears into the far east for months at a time? I just find it more plausible that Batman's identity is there to know for those who look, but acting on that information is a much more delicate situation.
Frank Miller + Batman = Ruined Childhoods.
Cap? Hah. On his best day, Cap couldn't even beat Batman. In fact, the two fought to a standstill once, and if memory serves, the fight was purely that - a brawl. Batman didn't really prep, and didn't use any crazy gadgets. He just fought Cap to a standstill. Throw in Bat-level tricks or Doom-level tech and there's no way Cap comes out. Doom beats Cap.
Who immediately walks into a trap and ends up stranded on another dimension. :P
And then he rages so hard he breaks out, and comes back with an army of angry hulks....
And then he rages so hard he breaks out, and comes back with an army of angry hulks....
lol, he rages so hard he breaks the metaphysical barrier between worlds? Damn.
Hey, kind of off-topic (ha, ha) but what's the long-story-short on the whole Red Hulk thing?
EDIT: Also, you should probably go ahead and never use the phrase 'army of angry hulks' again. That's just... just... I don't know what. It makes me want to cry. I guess we'd just be praying that Galactus eats Earth before they spread?
And on Asgard.
Basically take the Hulk and turn it into a Mary Sue and you get Red Hulk. Everyone is Red Hulk's *****.
As much as I love Steve Rogers, he's purely reactive. Steve see threat, Steve smash threat. He doesn't have the long-term strategy chops to tangle with Doom (or Batman) and win. He's the best in the world at reacting and leading on the ground, immediate tactical engagement, but he's not the guy you want doing what is effectively long-term counterspy work.
Tony has never shown himself to be much of a planner. A genius, sure. And one hell of a business man. But he's not going to out maneuver Doom on a macro level.
I mean, these guys have access to a robot that can turn invisible and phase through walls, and they known next to nothing about any given threat until it's already eaten part of Manhattan. That's far enough below Bruce's standards as to have fallen off the bottom of the chart.
I'd like to throw out some thoughts off of this as well.
On intelligence: Since in mainstream comics (and most all other adaptations) of Batman we see him designing and building a good portion of his own gear, I'd say he's pretty darn smart. Also, look at Tower of Babel (the graphic novel) for some inventiveness on his part. I'd say he's right about even with Doom here.
On cleverness: I think he's got Doom beat by miles.
On equipment: His regular suit definitely couldn't stand up toe to toe with Doom's armor. But it would help him escape and evade until he could grab some more gear. Like his own power suits (I've got two graphic novels with different models of power armor, not to mention the Knightfall period; he's got access to the stuff).
On magic: At first glance, this might appear to be Batman's one "glaring" weakness. But after Identity Crisis, if not much earlier, I doubt he's actually as vulnerable as we think. Batman knows lots of people who use magic to fight crime. Beyond that, he should have access to Nth metal, or some other substance that negates magic.
Shoot, he probably could have Nth metal (or whatever else) woven into his costume to protect against magic.
...Say, Bruce, have we done that yet? Or do we need to fire up the fabrication machines?
...Say, Bruce, have we done that yet? Or do we need to fire up the fabrication machines?
Need to know, kid. Need to know.
Need to know, kid. Need to know.
...You know, considering Terry McGinnis' relation to Bruce Wayne, you'd think he of all people would be within that circle...
I thought they were retconned out.
Can someone please explain to me, how One More Day's deal resulted in the return of the mechanical webshooters?
I thought they were retconned out.
It's a magical deal with the devil.
Really, that's all I've got.
So yeah Batman wins. Because honestly Dc is cooler.
Because honestly Dc is cooler.
There's a blog post floating somewhere out in teh intarwebs that lays it all out, but the difference is really this;
Marvel is a teenage romance story, DC is a mystery novel. That's why they feel different on a macro level.
...You know, considering Terry McGinnis' relation to Bruce Wayne, you'd think he of all people would be within that circle...
Sorry. This is Bat-Only clearance levels.
Marvel is a teenage romance story, DC is a mystery novel. That's why they feel different on a macro level.
First one I buy. Absolutely. Second one, I don't think so. DC is a true epic in the tradition of old.
All of those interminable passages about shipbuilding in Homer, or whaling in Moby Dick? Think of all the obsessive continuity circlejerking in a given Geoff Johns or Mark Waid book.
One of my professors broke down the typical hero epic. The hero will leave the village at the behest of his father. He will travel somewhere mysterious, confront the gods, and return with a boon for the village. He will kill or displace his father and become their paragon.
In the typical oral retelling of the story, once the boon is conferred the teller will launch into a mnemonic which will confer the boon onto the entire village by refreshing their ability to utilize it. If the hero found fire, there will be a poem or song about how to build a fire. If he learned to carve a bow, there will be detailed instructions about that.
This is exactly like a typical Geoff Johns story. Heroes go out into space. They have interdimensional battles with super powerful beings. Some annoying, meaningless detail from a DC comic, or possibly a company that DC bought, will be rediscovered by the heroes and lavishly reprised as the deus ex machina. The details of its first and subsequent appearances, as well as endless arguments about this new interpretation, will blossom all over the internet for about a week before anybody remembers how stupid it was and why it was abandoned in the first place.
Except instead of learning how to carve a bow and arrow, you now know what indigo kryptonite does.
Frank Miller + Original Material = Sweet.
Frank Miller + Batman = Ruined Childhoods.
The Dark Knight Returns ruined your childhood?
Well, Batshido is right, the match-up has never happened in the comics... but I did find this:
http://www.electricferret.com/fights/issue_171.htm
Unfortunately, the consensus over there seems to be that Doom takes the win hands-down...
That first response-post is infuriating. "Doom wins because Bane beat Batman and Doom could easily beat Bane"?
Doom was beaten by Squirrel Girl, dude. Srsly.
That first response-post is infuriating. "Doom wins because Bane beat Batman and Doom could easily beat Bane"?
Doom was beaten by Squirrel Girl, dude. Srsly.
Yes, yes he did.
Also, I'd like to point out that Bane took weeks, months, years of planning, and probably got lucky more than once. His whole deal was an elaborate operation, not a simple "barge in and smash the Bat" occurance.
Granted, Doom can plan, but saying "Bane did it once!" isn't as big a trump card as some think.
Also, Squirrel Girl beat Thanos, too.
The Dark Knight Returns ruined your childhood?
I picked up an All-Star Batman & Robin and stumbled upon that whole "What are you, retarded? I'm the ******* Batman" bit, but by that point, I was already sobbing silently. Batman laughs like a maniac when he drops onto the scene? Miller has Batman foaming-at-the-mouth insane, having sex with other capes in public, cackling like a madman to creep out the badguys, and generally just barreling into every scenario like he's the Hulk. He's loud, he talks to himself, he's verbally abusive to Robin (and everyone else, and I mean everyone else), and he does some things to some cops (namely blowing them up) that I'm pretty sure should've killed them.
Ugh.
I like Frank Miller, I liked Sin City, I liked 300. But, dude. Just... dude.
Also, Squirrel Girl beat Thanos, too.
What the f**k?
I picked up an All-Star Batman & Robin and stumbled upon that whole "What are you, retarded? I'm the ******* Batman" bit, but by that point, I was already sobbing silently. Batman laughs like a maniac when he drops onto the scene? Miller has Batman foaming-at-the-mouth insane, having sex with other capes in public, cackling like a madman to creep out the badguys, and generally just barreling into every scenario like he's the Hulk. He's loud, he talks to himself, he's verbally abusive to Robin (and everyone else, and I mean everyone else), and he does some things to some cops (namely blowing them up) that I'm pretty sure should've killed them.
Ugh.
I like Frank Miller, I liked Sin City, I liked 300. But, dude. Just... dude.
This sums up my feelings pretty well, right down to the specific examples. The other thing that struck me was Millers typical anti-authority schtick being writ large in Gotham; every single figure of authority is either incompetent, uncaring or irredeemably corrupt. Batman is Miller's now ubiquitous CN ubermensch, brutally destroying anything in his way and loving every minute of it.
It was literally painful to read.
DKR was a good book, but it wasn't a great book. It suffered from a lot of the issues we see in All Star Batman, though lessened by degrees. I'm personally a fan of the direction that book took Batman in on a macro level, but I'm not a huge fan of the book itself.
I picked up an All-Star Batman & Robin and stumbled upon that whole "What are you, retarded? I'm the ******* Batman" bit, but by that point, I was already sobbing silently. Batman laughs like a maniac when he drops onto the scene? Miller has Batman foaming-at-the-mouth insane, having sex with other capes in public, cackling like a madman to creep out the badguys, and generally just barreling into every scenario like he's the Hulk. He's loud, he talks to himself, he's verbally abusive to Robin (and everyone else, and I mean everyone else), and he does some things to some cops (namely blowing them up) that I'm pretty sure should've killed them.
Ugh.
I like Frank Miller, I liked Sin City, I liked 300. But, dude. Just... dude.
I've never personally read All Star. At this point, I don't want to. It seems like the only good thing from that was the "I'm the ******** Batman" line. Which is still mainly good for internet posters and memes.
Cable's probably their best shot, now that I think about it, but even he is out of his league when it comes to Doom. I mean, the man may be his own Great300 Grandfather.
Ah yes, the "Philip J. Fry Maneuver". Good stuff.
Besides, in a battle of Xanatos Gambits, everyone knows time travel is cheating. :P
Also, Squirrel Girl beat Thanos, too.
lol, hadn't seen that one. I read the Great Lakes Avengers graphic novel...was it in there?
This sums up my feelings pretty well, right down to the specific examples. The other thing that struck me was Millers typical anti-authority schtick being writ large in Gotham; every single figure of authority is either incompetent, uncaring or irredeemably corrupt. Batman is Miller's now ubiquitous CN ubermensch, brutally destroying anything in his way and loving every minute of it.
You forget the fact that like every single woman he writes is some form of Prostitute.
I'm so glad All Star Superman did everything All Star Batman got wrong right.
And on the Bat vs. Doom thing, take a look at my name and guess who I think wins. I mean the man has Morgan Le Fay (In more ways than one) on his side, has beaten his way out of Hell Muplitple times, tricked the Devil into releasing the souls of his mother and first love, has it so that just about everything he does can fall under diplomatic immunity, is one of the top geniuses, and is the new Sorcerer Supreme ,how could I go against that?
DKR was a good book, but it wasn't a great book. It suffered from a lot of the issues we see in All Star Batman, though lessened by degrees. I'm personally a fan of the direction that book took Batman in on a macro level, but I'm not a huge fan of the book itself.
When I was a kid, Batman was Adam West failing to realize that Eartha Kitt, Frank Gorshin and Cesar Romero were the actual stars of his TV show. To say that DKR took Batman is a good direction is a woeful understatement - it pretty much established the "Dark Knight" as the Bat worth knowing/reading about.
I don't disagree about the issues in All Star Batman - what Miller is trying to do is re-re-invent the character, and that's probably a mistake. But the statement that Miller + Batman = ruined childhood is incomprehensible to me - the Batman of *my* childhood was a weak running gag, Miller turned him back into something interesting.
And on the Bat vs. Doom thing, take a look at my name and guess who I think wins. I mean the man has Morgan Le Fay (In more ways than one) on his side, has beaten his way out of Hell Muplitple times, tricked the Devil into releasing the souls of his mother and first love, has it so that just about everything he does can fall under diplomatic immunity, is one of the top geniuses, and is the new Sorcerer Supreme ,how could I go against that?
On the other hand, back in a classic Justice League, when the White Martians are about this >< far from executing Supes, GL and the rest of the League on world-wide television, to the delight of the mind-controlled population of Earth, the only person they can't account for is Bats. One of them, on hearing that yet another white martian has gone missing, moans aloud words to the effect of "How can this be happening, he's JUST ONE MAN!" to which a nearly-dead Supes replies "The most dangerous man on earth."
That what you get with Bats. The most dangerous man on earth. Doom's no pushover to be sure, but again - the most dangerous man on earth.
Also, Darth Vader could totally kick James Kirk's ass. Just sayin'
When I was a kid, Batman was Adam West failing to realize that Eartha Kitt, Frank Gorshin and Cesar Romero were the actual stars of his TV show. To say that DKR took Batman is a good direction is a woeful understatement - it pretty much established the "Dark Knight" as the Bat worth knowing/reading about.
I don't disagree about the issues in All Star Batman - what Miller is trying to do is re-re-invent the character, and that's probably a mistake. But the statement that Miller + Batman = ruined childhood is incomprehensible to me - the Batman of *my* childhood was a weak running gag, Miller turned him back into something interesting.
Shark Repelent
Wait, wait, wait, wait....wait! Batman died?
As another poster put it, yes. Batman died shooting a ray gun at an alien.
Actually, Batman died murdering Darksied. With a gun (and a god-killing bullet). So Darksied's dead, too. I'm none to happy about this whole mess, honestly. It doesn't seem very... Batman, to me. He should've died in Gotham, to a Batman villian, in some fashion that has something, anything to do with his own storylines. Not in a non-Batman title, putting a bullet into another character's head on some faraway dimension.
Feh to all of it.
He's in the Justice League for crying out loud. The Joker (Or the Rogue's Gallery for that matter) is not in the league of Darkseid. Not even close.
When I was a kid, Batman was Adam West failing to realize that Eartha Kitt, Frank Gorshin and Cesar Romero were the actual stars of his TV show. To say that DKR took Batman is a good direction is a woeful understatement - it pretty much established the "Dark Knight" as the Bat worth knowing/reading about.
I don't disagree about the issues in All Star Batman - what Miller is trying to do is re-re-invent the character, and that's probably a mistake. But the statement that Miller + Batman = ruined childhood is incomprehensible to me - the Batman of *my* childhood was a weak running gag, Miller turned him back into something interesting.
Oh, don't get me wrong. Adam West's Batman was a travesty and we'd all be better off if it were stricken from human memory. I vastly prefer the dark, angsty Batman to the farce that carried shark repellant.
I was a big fan of DKR the first time I read it, but further rereadings have left it kind of stale for me. Probably because I've been exposed to much more Frank Miller since that initial reading, and I've started recognizing "Millerisms" in places that they just don't belong.
He used a gun?
To kill an alien, but it may have been a clone.
And, yes, I'm aware of how Un-Batman that all was.
So yeah, this was the proper time for Bats to violate his no gun and no killing rule (Rules he's violated mulptiple times before depending on the situation). If most of you were reading the comics this happened in it would make sense.
Don't know how many of you read the DC Nation page in the back of the DC books this week, if you have a DC book it's right on the last page. But recently they've been going through the different characters and parts of the DC universe (JSA, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Titans, etc.) and talking about the future of the respective books. Well in this weeks one they just had a list of lines that will be spoken by specific characters in the up coming future and then a list of characters. The trick is figuring out who says what. Some seem pretty easy others not so much. If this seems familiar there was a similar list near the end of Infinite Crisis except it was just a list of what would happen and a list of characters. Well here's the current list. If you can't tell this is most likely related to Batman.
1. "I know he's not dead and I will find him, even if I have to make a deal with the devil himself."
2. "I will stop them all, no matter who they are or what they meant to me."
3. "I will step down, I will step aside, but I will never stop."
4. "He took away what mattered most; I am broken, but that can never slow me down."
5. "He has replaced me, but he will never be me."
6. "I will watch them closely, stay vigilant, make sure they do not repeat the mistakes of the past."
7. "I have seen the future and I will do everything I can to change it. Starting with my death."
8. "I will make sure justice returns to Gotham and every criminal is behind bars."
9. "I need to make amends for all the damage I caused."
10. "I will be the greatest Batman ever."
A. Diana Prince
B. Tim Drake
C. Roy Harper
D. Vic Stone
E. Jason Todd
F. John Stewart
G. Kate Spencer
H. Wally West
I. Michael Jon Carter
J. Clark Kent
Oh, don't get me wrong. Adam West's Batman was a travesty and we'd all be better off if it were stricken from human memory. I vastly prefer the dark, angsty Batman to the farce that carried shark repellant.
TBH I liked the old Adam West Batman episodes. I watched them as a kid - they were funny. Adam West is funny.
I also like "dark, angsty" Batman too, and consider it the "real" Batman. But I think the West era has a place in humor and history. It was camp, but camp was big then. It wasn't like the Sci-Fi original movies we get now like Cobra vs Python that try to be serious and are so Full Of Fail. West's Batman was shooting for camp. I still enjoy an ep when I catch it - the ridiculous music, the silly villains (Vincent Price as Egghead? Come on!), the over-the-top gadgets...
Basically I think they're two sides of the same coin, and you can enjoy both. Without the silly, optimistic plots of the Silver and Golden age comics which led to that show, we wouldn't have interesting stuff like the Justice League episode "Legends".
EDIT: I agree the "Batman uses a gun" thing could be done well (I haven't read it) if handled carefully. But I agree even more with Rake - if he had to bite the big one, I would've preferred he did it in his own comic, with a villain that was his. I disagree that none of Batman's villains were "up to the task". That does a disservice to how well some of their history has played out. There's a reason why Joker is such a fan favorite. He scared the sh-- out of us like few other villains can...without Omega Beams.
Show
J. Clark Kent
EDIT: Actually Stewart might be 9, remember the planet he destroyed?
He's my #1 pick.
Also, I still don't believe Batman used a gun. PICS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
10. is probably Todd and 7 is probably Tim. I'm having a hard time placing Stewart anywhere, but it may get easier to place him when the War of the Lanterns and Blackest Night ends.
EDIT: Actually Stewart might be 9, remember the planet he destroyed?
To me the phrasing of #10 seems to indicate that the speaker either believes that there was more than one Batman or is unsure about how many there have been. That takes Todd out of the running, because there's no way anyone told him about the time Dick or Azreal spent as Batman, and Bruce was still around when he came back.
I could see Stewart as 9, but then I could see Diana there too.
Numbers 2 and 6 are probably Titans or former Titans based on the text and the options available. Is there something going down there that I've missed recently?
Number 4 I picked based purely on the wording. It could be Cyborg as well with that criteria, but number 6 seems to be a mentoring role so that put him in the top spot there.
Gah. Too much to contemplate at once.
Right now Jericho has returned and is messing with the older group of Titans, he says that the personalities of all the people he's jumped into are starting to take control. And in the teen team there currently recruiting seeing how Tim and Miss Martian have left and it seems like the Calculator is coming after them after Marvin and his sister were attacked because of them.
That definitely makes me think those two are Titan quotes then.
So yeah, this was the proper time for Bats to violate his no gun and no killing rule (Rules he's violated mulptiple times before depending on the situation).
Has Bats ever killed, in continuity (minus alternate realities and retcons)?
Has Bats ever killed, in continuity (minus alternate realities and retcons)?
Yes, not any humans that I can recall, but if your a alien, monster, demon, sentient/Non sentient mechanical life form and your causing to much of a ruckus, Batman will end you. All so he has just let his fair share of crooks die when he could save them.
Heh. So I was just reading my DC vs. Marvel GN yesterday. The one from '96, (where Ben Riley Spider-man somehow beats Superboy?). Anyway, I like how quickly Robin schooled Jubilee. Anyone remember this? She even complained about it. She makes some comment about her being sorry that the fight isn't even fair, since he has no powers, and Tim just pretty much says 'uh huh' and vanishes. Jubes pokes around, bolas come out of nowhere, she's down. Fight's over. Jubilee whines that she didn't even get a shot off. Tim's like... sorry, had to be quick, didn't want to have to hurt you. Really made me laugh.
I haven't read that in ages, but I remember that fight. I also remember Namor being crushed by an orca.
I haven't read that in ages, but I remember that fight. I also remember Namor being crushed by an orca.
Yeah, that was BS, though. Maybe moreso than Spidey beating Superboy (not sure about SB's powers and if electrocution would put him down).
I'm pretty sure Namor would devastate Aquaman.
Yeah, that was BS, though. Maybe moreso than Spidey beating Superboy (not sure about SB's powers and if electrocution would put him down).
I'm pretty sure Namor would devastate Aquaman.
Which Aquaman though? :P
Generally I agree though. Namor tends to be more awesome.
I don't think Electrocution would work on S.B. Spidey? Yeah it'd work on. And all SB would have to have done was grab ahold of Spidey and not let go. Spidey wouldn't be strong enough to break S.b's tactile telekinesis power.
Which Aquaman though? :P
Generally I agree though. Namor tends to be more awesome.
The wiseacre one with the hook-launching hand. The dialogue in the Aquaman vs. Namor fight was great, by the way. They're both a couple of pr*cks.
I don't think Electrocution would work on S.B. Spidey? Yeah it'd work on. And all SB would have to have done was grab ahold of Spidey and not let go. Spidey wouldn't be strong enough to break S.b's tactile telekinesis power.
SB never got a hold (spider-sense and all), and Spidey beat him by dumping water on him and swinglining him into a generator. All you had to do to win the fight was put your opponent down temporarily or render him temporarily immobile. I guess getting zapped took Superboy out long enough to constitute a win for Spidey. Seemed like BS to me, though.
They'd have to play up Spidey's danger senses (to the zone of Mary Sue dom more than they already do).
If Morpheous could land a blow on spidey (or more than one.. Ben Riley Spidey no less). SB could just as easily.
But yeah, that kind of electrocution wouldn't do the job. So yeah it was pretty much BS.
That probably effected the outcome pretty heavily.
Remember that one of those characters was headlining a vanguard title for their company while the other was a second-stringer at best at the time.
That probably effected the outcome pretty heavily.
And Morpheus is a prime time villain?
Please he's a reject from Spiderman Summer Camp at best.
Morpheus shouldn't give Spiderman more trouble than Superboy.
Oh, and Batman made Bullseye miss at very close range. That gave me pause, but then Bullseye misses rather a lot, I guess. I've never liked him for that reason: his powers are incredibly inconsistent. Sometimes he can spit his own teeth with precision accuracy or toss a paper airplane across the city, but other times can't even hit Daredevil.
And Morpheus is a prime time villain?
Please he's a reject from Spiderman Summer Camp at best.
Morpheus shouldn't give Spiderman more trouble than Superboy.
Kind of like the Joker shouldn't give Batman more trouble than Metallo or Captain Cold?
It's less about power-level and more about plotting. Welcome to comics.
But then I remembered it was Riley and not Parker, so I stopped caring.
Kind of like the Joker shouldn't give Batman more trouble than Metallo or Captain Cold?
It's less about power-level and more about plotting. Welcome to comics.
Any time a character is named Captain Cold they are a Loser.
I don't know enough about Metallo.
Also, the Joker is one of The Bat's biggest Villains. Morpheus is just a lame guest star villain most of the time who's added in when there's already bad **** going down to "make it that much harder" on Spidey.
Pretty much every comic that I've seen him appear in Spidey pretty much pwns him hands down after getting something heavy thrown at him, takes the hit like a man crawls out and then decks Morpheus.
Hey Ben is a far better Spiderman than that Spiderdork known as Peter Parker. Especially since Ben never makes a deal with Mephisto
Pretty much every comic that I've seen him appear in Spidey pretty much pwns him hands down after getting something heavy thrown at him, takes the hit like a man crawls out and then decks Morpheus.
Morpheus shouldn't give Spiderman more trouble than Superboy.
It doesn't sound like there's actually a problem here, Cap.
With a Morpheus fight at least it lasts multiple pages. *usually 2-3 in the books I read at the time* Not just "Oh I web him sling him into a generator GG"
Superboy though -is- more powerful than Morpheus by leaps and bounds. I used Morpheus as an example as "If that Loser can give Spidey "trouble" then this guy who actually is a competent character should give Spidey Trouble (at the very least).. not die that much faster than the Loser".
Sure there is. if SB doesn't even hit spidey then SB is < Morpheus according to whatever moron wrote that comic. (the fans voted. I don't mind the result.. but could the battle have been better done?)
He did land a hit, he just didn't get a grab. Mostly he threw a couple things. It was over too fast for me, though. And, yeah, still not convinced that a generator in shin-deep water puts Superboy down, even temporarily (although I do recall Bats doing this to Bizzaro with an electrified net and the ocean).
Kind of like the Joker shouldn't give Batman more trouble than Metallo or Captain Cold?
It's less about power-level and more about plotting. Welcome to comics.
Please don't feed the Killer Crocs, and don't shake the clown's hand. Trust me.
Please don't feed the Killer Crocs, and don't shake the clown's hand. Trust me.
Just got done reading The Last Laugh, Joker-Croc was creepy. All in all, kind of a mediocre story though.
EDIT: We did get an appearance from the evil BBW of comics, the Orca, though. Nice booty on that one. Too bad about the face.
EDIT: We did get an appearance from the evil BBW of comics, the Orca, though. Nice booty on that one. Too bad about the face.
Marvel's Orca is (was) male. I just about got the wrong idea about you, pal. :P
Marvel's Orca is (was) male. I just about got the wrong idea about you, pal. :P
lol, good thing I specified, I guess.
To be perfectly honest, I think I'd have sex with the honest-to-god, comic-book Batman though. You know, just to say I did. I mean, what else are you going to do with your life that'll top that?
On the subject of Orca: Her face isn't that bad. And the girls just got some solid muscles is all.
...Boss, do you want me to toss him out on the curb now, or after you cane him some?
On the subject of Orca: Her face isn't that bad. And the girls just got some solid muscles is all.
lol, she sure does. A paper bag and a muzzle and I'd
that.>.>
<.<
I wouldn't need the bag and muzzle.
>.>
<.<
Wait, when you guys were saying Morpheus were talking Dream Morpheus or someone else?
I assumed we were talking about the pseudo-vampire Spidey villain.
...I mean...
Sooooo. Does anyone remember the Bat-Wolverine from the great crossover wars of '96? : D
NANANANANANANANA BAAAATMAAAAN!
...I mean...
Sooooo. Does anyone remember the Bat-Wolverine from the great crossover wars of '96? : D
Darkclaw?
The best part of that character was the Joker/Sabertooth mashup that was his archvillain.
Darkclaw?
That's the one! Found art, too:
http://www.comicvine.com/dark-claw/29-47080/65623-dark-claw/105-193007/
Has Bats ever killed, in continuity (minus alternate realities and retcons)?
With a machine gun, even, from the Batplane, in "Batman #1." Though the target I am thinking of was a sort of "Mr. Hyde" type character created by Hugo Strange and arguably no longer human.
With a machine gun, even, from the Batplane, in "Batman #1." Though the target I am thinking of was a sort of "Mr. Hyde" type character created by Hugo Strange and arguably no longer human.
Bob Kane's original concept of Batman was quite a bit different than the state of the Dark Knight today.
As I recall, he killed multiple times in the first few issues, including garroting a gangster at one point. The compunction against killing came with the institution of the Comics Code and was later explained in-character via a promise made to the doctor whose name I'm blanking for some reason.
Oh please like any of the Batman's villains would honestly be good enough to kill him.
He's in the Justice League for crying out loud. The Joker (Or the Rogue's Gallery for that matter) is not in the league of Darkseid. Not even close.
The real problem with having the Joker, say, shoot him or something is that it's more difficult to un-do it later. If Darkseid blasts him straight to hell with his silly eye-beams or whatever, it's a more classic comic book death, leading to a classic comic book Orpheus-in-Hades type solution.
Either way it's a terrible, stupid editorial decision to kill Wayne in the first place.
Bob Kane's original concept of Batman was quite a bit different than the state of the Dark Knight today.
As I recall, he killed multiple times in the first few issues, including garroting a gangster at one point. The compunction against killing came with the institution of the Comics Code and was later explained in-character via a promise made to the doctor whose name I'm blanking for some reason.
Indeed. I have not read (or, do not well remember) the first year stories from Detective. I had a large-format reprint of "Batman #1" (with a reprint of "Action Comics #1 under the same cover) as a kid, which is what I remember the Huge Strange story from. The Joker was a considerably different character in that book as well - certainly a lot darker than he came to be later on. I do have a vague recollection of him (Bats) garroting a gangster but I couldn't tell you where I remember it from.
Bob Kane's original concept of Batman was quite a bit different than the state of the Dark Knight today.
As I recall, he killed multiple times in the first few issues, including garroting a gangster at one point. The compunction against killing came with the institution of the Comics Code and was later explained in-character via a promise made to the doctor whose name I'm blanking for some reason.
Leslie Thompkins, boss.
Leslie Thompkins, boss.
Ah ha. Good work.
I knew it wasn't Wesley Crusher.
Have you been watching TNG on the Batcomputer again?
Ah ha. Good work.
I knew it wasn't Wesley Crusher.
Have you been watching TNG on the Batcomputer again?
No. What gave you that idea?
....I was re-watching Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagan,though.
>.>
<.<
No. What gave you that idea?
....I was re-watching Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagan,though.
>.>
<.<
Because it kept giving me Dr. Crusher for my queries. And I'm pretty sure I don't have anyone named "Worf" on file.
That was me... sorry.
Ah. Well, time for a systems scrub. Once that's done you can both hit the course; I expect you to have it in under 52 seconds by the time I get back.
I've left my sector unattended too long... good luck!
Because it kept giving me Dr. Crusher for my queries. And I'm pretty sure I don't have anyone named "Worf" on file.
Ah. Well, time for a systems scrub. Once that's done you can both hit the course; I expect you to have it in under 52 seconds by the time I get back.
Really? That's an odd association for it to make. Drop one of those worm hunter programs, you never know what he could have accidentally drawn into the system.
.....Wait, what? Why do I have to hit the course? The computer has, like, 67 screens! I used one of them for the show, and the other 66 for simultaneous research! Gah! This is your fault, Micha!
*Broods off to the course*
52...geezer's been obsessed with that number for over a year now....
.....Wait, what? Why do I have to hit the course? The computer has, like, 67 screens! I used one of them for the show, and the other 66 for simultaneous research! Gah! This is your fault, Micha!
You've got to do it because the Lantern's a flake. Not that this is surprising. My research shows that they tend to be selected for their impulsiveness and inability to pay attention long enough to realize that they've got far more power than their undersized brains can really handle.
And I'm pretty sure prolonged exposure to ring radiation causes testicle shrinkage.
*checks ********** nope. No shrinkage we're good.
That's only on Kryptonians that you've gotta worry about testicle shrinkage. By the way bad things happen when Kryptonians get a ring... *shudder*
Oh we realize the power we wield. Some of us choose not to use it though. :P I mean it wouldn't be fun if we solved every problem in the universe and left you guys with nothing.
If I were less dignified, I'd be making chicken noises right now.
*checks ********** nope. No shrinkage we're good.
Are they green? 'Cause that ring can make green things. You know that, right?
It -creates green things- not makes already existing things green.
I hear one of the rings gives you 'roid rage' though. I'm pretty sure that's the ring of anger.
You were considered for a ring at one point. But we decided your work ethic is too good. So some numbskull decided to give Hal a ring back instead.
Like I said; they select for flakiness and a lack of vision. Hal was perfect.
It -creates green things- not makes already existing things green.
If it's covering up the fact that it's burning away your ********* one giant green boxing glove at a time, it's probably making you replacement balls in the meantime.
Come on, kid. Try to keep up.
I don't make boxing gloves old man.
That's so lame and full of fail it's not even funny. Boxing gloves.
Please, I make ghost ships loaded with cannons, and whatever else I can think of. Boxing gloves. pfft.
You must be hanging around the lame lanterns too much.
You were considered for a ring at one point. But we decided your work ethic is too good. So some numbskull decided to give Hal a ring back instead.
It -creates green things- not makes already existing things green.
I hear one of the rings gives you 'roid rage' though. I'm pretty sure that's the ring of anger.
Also, I still fail to see how a Lantern's flakiness gets me in trouble.
Hey, you were the one who let him into the Batcave.
If you keep this up, I might complain to Selina. And you know how that will end.
With me catching her and the two of us making out? Feel free.
Hey, you were the one who let him into the Batcave.
With me catching her and the two of us making out? Feel free.
To the first, no, I wasn't. He came through the teleporter. You know, the one you installed.
To the second, I meant you might not get any, but I suppose it's a 50/50 split.
Of course, if it does happen how you say, and I've complained to her....she may tape it and put it on YouTube. You know how those internet sites can be.
Hey, you were the one who let him into the Batcave.
Hey, remember that time Batman installed a Lazarus pit, the only portal through which Ra's Al Ghul could return to life, inside of the Batcave? Just sayin'.
He could have rezzed Ra's Al Ghul...
Do you have to beat back a radioactive skeleton man every other week?
What about a musclebound anarchist with a mad-on for bombs and explosives?
Or how about a crazy cyborg hunter?
Oh, and let's not forget the semi-liquid thief. That one sure was a "blast".
You all act like I'm stupid enough to rez Ghul. As if.
Now, being fooled into kissing Ghul in his daughter's body? Again, not I, but someone I know....
(Why does bats with ring still wear utility belt?)
Because it's yellow. ;) (Ok so in the pic it looks gray, but still. Usually yellow.)
(Why does bats with ring still wear utility belt?)
Because he's Crazy Prepared. You never know what might come in handy from there.
Are the bat-orangs still yellow?
Bat-orangs?
As far as I know, the batarangs are black, like they've always(?) been.
Bat-oranges (you know he has these) would probably be orange, and bat-shaped.
Because he's Crazy Prepared. You never know what might come in handy from there.
I thought the Ring could make anything, so why carry anything, if your ring is already everyting. It's just redundant.
I thought the Ring could make anything, so why carry anything, if your ring is already everyting. It's just redundant.
The rings have been shown to occasionally run out of power, or even be surpressed.
Also, you act like redundancy is a bad thing. In this kind of work, it's not. In fact, it's just the opposite.
The rings have been shown to occasionally run out of power, or even be surpressed.
Also, you act like redundancy is a bad thing. In this kind of work, it's not. In fact, it's just the opposite.
Also, a batarang to the eye can't be prevented just by wearing yellow sunglasses.
(Yeah, I realize the rings don't have that weakness anymore, but if somebody made the mistake of giving one to Batman, the Oans would be working hard day and night to find a way to put the weakness back in.)
When did Batman get the ring?
He didn't get the lantern's ring in any permanent sense, in-continuity, though it has been offered to him.
When did Batman get the ring?
There was an elseworlds about him being chosen as Earth's lantern.
I don't think he's ever had one in-continuity, but who the heck knows with all the reality rewriting that's been done in the last two years.
And why didn't Bats take it?
Too much power. He didn't want to risk getting out of control.
When did Batman get the ring?
There's an elseworld floating around called (if I recall) By Darkest Night.
Too much power. He didn't want to risk getting out of control.
He's a trillionare, he manages to keep his power under control :P There's no way the Lantern would be a temptation for the Bat.
He's a trillionare, he manages to keep his power under control :P There's no way the Lantern would be a temptation for the Bat.
Frank Miller's Batman sure seemed jealous. He really hated the Lantern for wasting his power. Of course, he really just hated the entire Justice League regardless. Oh, the name-calling.
He's a trillionare, he manages to keep his power under control :P There's no way the Lantern would be a temptation for the Bat.
There's a difference between the ability to finance nearly anything and the ability to reshape reality with your mind.
There's a difference between the ability to finance nearly anything and the ability to reshape reality with your mind.
Think about what you just posted there. :P
He has enough finances that he -does- reshape reality around him.
Think about what you just posted there. :P
He has enough finances that he -does- reshape reality around him.
Not on the same level as he could with the ring. Money make him rich and influential. Putting a ring on Batman makes him God.
Not on the same level as he could with the ring. Money make him rich and influential. Putting a ring on Batman makes him God.
Batman is already God. ;)
Batman is already God. ;)
Nope. He's just a guy with a brilliant mind and access to lots of very powerful toys. He's still vulnerable to the same things other humans are, and he can only work with what he has.
Putting a ring on him changes all that. He can suddenly take a hit from Supes and conjure whatever he needs as soon as he needs it. If he got it in his head to rule the world, there wouldn't be any way of stopping him.
A good friend of mine had a real temper and taking up martial arts was about the best thing he ever did. He can spar with people who can handle him, and he learned how to contain himself enough to walk away from a situation.
Just handing him an AK-47 and telling him to go to town probably wouldn't have ended so well.
I thought the Ring could make anything, so why carry anything, if your ring is already everyting. It's just redundant.
Also note that the Ring does require concentration. Green Lanterns are more susceptable to concentration-breaking tactics than other superheroes, as they need intense concentration to maintain their constructs (as well as the imagination to make them) - the more complex or numerous, the tougher it is.
I think there are some automatic-function exceptions (I think at least one of the GLs was knocked out in space but his ring kept the oxygen envelope around him or something), but AFAIK this is true for most things (like the force field).
Batman is really cool, unbridled vigilantism.... good fantasy....
He started that way, yes.
Modern Batman is defined by self-imposed limits, however. No killing is the most evident one, but it's a pretty long list all told.
Apparently, this is the reason Bats can't use a Yellow Ring either, GL radiation or something.
Take this with a pinch of salt. I'm propably not remembering this righ and I haven't read the original stories.
-Joni
Batman dies in a helicopter crash. That's the leading theory.
Batman's death at the hands of Darkseid has nothing to do with Batman continuity, it has to do with Final Crisis (in an alternate future, if I'm not mistaken.) continuity. This is not the same thing as Batman RIP.
In fact, they even make references in Final Crisis that the Batman in it isn't actually Bruce Wayne.
People have a hard time rationalizing these two concepts:
1. Just because the books are in the same universe does not mean they have the same continuity.
2. Just because the same character shows up in two different books does not mean it's in the same continuity.
Think Wolverine in Marvel. That SOB must have had a lot of time on his hands.
People seem to forget that, while in Justice League, Batman helps battle supernatural forces and beats up aliens, in the Batman specific part of the universe, he (generally) just faces seriously depraved individuals. The idea that they would set up an entire storyline involving a secret organization dedicated to taking down the Bat is entirely plausible in the Batman U. The idea that they would throw it all away to have Darkseid be the one who kills him off is ludicrous.
I've read the issue where Darkseid kills him. I understand that in THAT line, he's dead. Or assumed to be.
But that is NOT Batman RIP.
In Batman RIP, Bruce Wayne is killed in a helicoptor crash. That's the leading theory.
Frizzam frazzam razzim atazzam.
Batman dies in a helicopter crash. That's the leading theory.
Batman's death at the hands of Darkseid has nothing to do with Batman continuity, it has to do with Final Crisis (in an alternate future, if I'm not mistaken.) continuity. This is not the same thing as Batman RIP.
In fact, they even make references in Final Crisis that the Batman in it isn't actually Bruce Wayne.
People have a hard time rationalizing these two concepts:
1. Just because the books are in the same universe does not mean they have the same continuity.
2. Just because the same character shows up in two different books does not mean it's in the same continuity.
Think Wolverine in Marvel. That SOB must have had a lot of time on his hands.
People seem to forget that, while in Justice League, Batman helps battle supernatural forces and beats up aliens, in the Batman specific part of the universe, he (generally) just faces seriously depraved individuals. The idea that they would set up an entire storyline involving a secret organization dedicated to taking down the Bat is entirely plausible in the Batman U. The idea that they would throw it all away to have Darkseid be the one who kills him off is ludicrous.
I've read the issue where Darkseid kills him. I understand that in THAT line, he's dead. Or assumed to be.
But that is NOT Batman RIP.
In Batman RIP, Bruce Wayne is killed in a helicoptor crash. That's the leading theory.
....Wait, what? No.
Sorry, No.
That's not how it works. Every single press release and article about Batman RIP that I've read? The DC people said "OK, yeah, Bruce isn't dead yet, you'll see the real end in Final Crisis. It's the friggin' mega crossover; of course it's in the same continuity.
Maybe they set that secret society thing up, and had him not die to them, to show that even such a conspiracy can't kill the Bat. That instead, it takes a freaking demigod/Satan analogue to really, truly take down Bruce Wayne the Batman.
Seriously, even Wikipedia agrees with me. Everything I've read agrees with me.
I've literally never heard the perspective you're touting here put forth. The only things it might apply to are one-offs or miniseries like Trinity; things that don't fundamentally change the characters, but instead just explore them or whatnot.