Seriously though, although I like the balance introduced by the 4e ruleset, the PHB was too skinny if wotc has a dozen or more character classes/builds to add within just a few months. And judging from the new roles-based combat system, we're seriously needing more controller types.
1. THAC0
2. 4th Edition
3. Tome of Battle
If WotC had made a better edition, I'd be more inclined to spend my increasingly precious money on their products. But now they've lost a customer until 5th Edition comes out.
Provided they don't lay off the rest of their good staff members and produce an even crappier edition for 5E.
I foresee myself doing less D&D with the recession because I'll be working more to afford my bills. I also foresee myself not buying any 4E books not only because my budget must be limited (I'm a student), but also because they're a waste of my money. In the history of D&D there are three grave errors that have been made. In order of magnitude they are as follows:
1. THAC0
2. 4th Edition
3. Tome of Battle
If WotC had made a better edition, I'd be more inclined to spend my increasingly precious money on their products. But now they've lost a customer until 5th Edition comes out.
Provided they don't lay off the rest of their good staff members and produce an even crappier edition for 5E.
I have a feeling that if you don't like 4e, you'll prolly hate 5e because I don't see them going in a different direction.
On Topic: I don't think that the recession will really effect D&D. It may effect WotC, but the 'core' of 4e is already out, so many people will be able to just continue with what they have now.
1. THAC0
2. 4th Edition
3. Tome of Battle
I only agree with 2. THAC0 wasn't that bad, and Tome of Battle was a great book!
4th Edition just plain sucks. It's barely an rpg and is laidout more like a miniature game..
But then, maybe it's cause D&D is crap compared to some of the more promising rpgs out there. Like Call of The Cthlhu and Paranoia.
Infact, I have access to AD&D now and am starting to feel AD&D was the best system. Incoporating d100 system into skillchecks. My only beef is weapons suck. But it's like that in every edition of D&D.
As far as the recession goes. Eight gold for a largespear?! They must be out of their minds...
1) Tome of Battle was a pre-4th edition book. That's been quoted by so many 4th edition designers. In fact, the "preview" books stated Tome of Battle was made as a throw in to 3rd edition as a playtest of the "I get to select powers" idea. If folks liked tome of battle and hated 4th edition, it's like hating chocolate and loving candy bars made with chocolate.
2) If you hate 4th edition or think it's bad, or paraphrase, re-phrase, use a different adjective, etc., why on earth are you on these boards? Good lord, that's like ordering a double quarter pounder with supersized fries at mickie d's and ordering a diet coke with it, since your on a diet. Or, in Larry the Cable Guy's words, "it's like wiping your butt before you poop. It just don't make sense."
Seriously people, do you just surround yourself with things you dislike in hopes to a) perhaps change your mind; so that if you immerse yourself in a fear or dislike you will end up liking it or b) revel in negativity, stress, or to pee inn everyone else's cornflakes?
Look, I'm not trying to troll, tee off, or anger anyone. There's 75 gazillion other chat rooms out there, including those chat rooms, boards, discussions and whatever designated to earlier editions of the role-playing game we call D&D. I suggest to USE THEM INSTEAD if you liked other things than 4th edition. And while this isn't 4th edition, it is the newest shiny edition on the market and what a majority of people on these boards play. Trust me, you'll probably feel a lot better; and you'll be discussing things you enjoy...and positive things make everyone feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
Alrighty, then; task at hand. The economy has effected many. But it's really relative. The east and west coast are hit the hardest. Just because we are in a recession, doesn't mean "everyone" is in a recession. Besides, its a natural tendency that the economy waxes and wanes. History proves that. In order for businesses to make it during these times, they need to lower costs, make advertising more effective, and ride it out. Businesses that falter in these three key things will either die off or be bought. While WOTC isn't in comparison to sears or walmart, they have their die hard fans who will still continue to purchase books. And, while large companies do falter, I've not heard of Hasbro tanking. Will it effect WOTC? Maybe. Probably not. (unless it gets much worse) But that's my opinion.
Recession is an illusion. It only happens because the media announces it and the masses believe it.
And because the masses believe it, they stop spending money and the recession becomes real.
And because the masses believe it, they stop spending money and the recession becomes real.
Exactly. Recession is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Ah, yes. The period for which the GDP growth is negative and is declared after revision of all available economic data by competent experts MUST be an illusion.
and the seen effects like job loss, credit crunch, those are illusions too?
when it's harder for the little man to get a line of credit, he is more likely to spend his money differently.
(it can be expensive to DM, or if you're a collector
As a collector? Yes.
As a DM? No.
All a good DM needs is a PHB (wich everyone needs anyways), a DMG, and at least 1 Monster Manual for whatever edition you prefer. After that all you need is a good imagination.
Exactly. Recession is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
which is why i spend every cent I get :D
Bought myself Martial Powers and Adventurer's Vault the other day 'cause I felt like it'.
Also bought two other books (not gaming though).
Bought a DS game yesterday 'cause I wanted it'.
Thinking of buying some wargaming 'stuff' for myself possibly in the 30 dollar range, 'because I want it'.
And there's some models I like the looks of I might pick up in a short while maybe next month 'because I feel like it'.
Got my eye on some anime I might want 'cause I want to get it'.
And this all while I of course pay for the family's bills, food, clothing, son's interests, wife's interests.
But I walk eh, car costs too much to own, so I don't own one.
Can't have everything eh.
Life is about making 'smart' choices, not about whether you have none to make.
If more people were to spend their money more wisely, we wouldn't have so much news about so many people in so much dire peril economically speaking.
WotC probably won't be hit as hard as you'd imagine, though. the closure of specialty game stores doesn't do much to decrease the availability of their products with large bookstores carrying their materials.
additionally, WotC is the name brand in gaming. we might see lesser companies such as AEG or Wizkids fall on more difficult times (how the later has remained in business this long is beyond my comprehension)
there will not be any more demand for older material than there was based on people's spending capacity. why would there? the old materials may be less expensive, but they are also inferior products with scarce availability.
4e is a robust system that is based around the minis game. This does not, however, mean that it is only an extension therein. there is plenty of roleplay to be had, and if your playgroup for 4e RP's less than the group you had for 3e, blame no one other than the one behind the DM screen. ultimately, it's up to the DM to encourage roleplay. it doesn't come out of thin air, and no lack of rules discourages it. Roleplay comes from the players reacting to situations the DM puts them in.
2nd ed had issues. mostly because TSR had nonsense going on that hampered their ability. Also, 2e was 20 years ago in terms of rules technology.
3rd ed had MORE issues than 2nd. this is because 2e had stagnated. there was no room for growth under the current rules, and 3e was an attempt to rework the system into a recognizable ruleset that was more player friendly. the problem was that there was no manual for development, and it had bugs due to rules technology being developed, but not refined or properly playtested. 3.5 helped, but underlying issues created balance problems.
4e is the end result of the rules technology experiment that was 3.0 and 3.5. it takes ideas developed during that time, and makes them work together so that a cohesive system emerges.
if you like 3e, fine. I can understand liking the prototype. but don't hate 4e just because it's just the finished product. the combat system got emphasis because it needed emphasis. the rest is basically freeform RP anyway
5th edition is still a long way away, and when it comes out, it will be interesting to see how many people who, in this and other threads, will be pining away for 4e. me? I embrace new rules technology, and have more interesting games than sticking with the old and busted.
and the seen effects like job loss, credit crunch, those are illusions too?
Absolutely. It must be so, because I, the random anonymous dude/gal from the internet say so.
Absolutely. It must be so, because I, the random anonymous dude/gal from the internet say so.
uhh... speaking as an anonymous dude i think you might want to rethink trusting something like that from us...:D please don't hate me!
Well folks it may come as no surprise that our recession in the US is threatening to deepen. How will consumer's lack of discretionary income affect d&d?
I imagine the D&D brand will be fine. The real value of the game lies in the fact that with just the purchase of the core set (for $100 at most), it can be played innumerable times, each session unique. That kind of bang for your buck is all but recession proof ;). The trick of course, is to get lots of people buying the core sets.
As far as my entertainment dollars go, I'm buying less D&D books now than I have in the past. I've slightly increased the number of comics and DVDs I typically buy in a month however. The same amount is being spent, just with a different focus.
The recession hasn't hit our family too hard just yet; we've been fortunate. Necessities like housing, food, transportation, and savings are taken care of first, and there's still plenty of room left for entertainment.
D&D is only a small fraction of my entertainment dollar but still, I've re-evaluated my D&D budget, just in case things should get worse—and they very well might; things happen unexpectedly all the time. The budget now includes less D&D hardcovers and more D&D Insider (where I plan to make liberal use of the online Rules Compendium).
AS for us, the consumers, I'd venture more gaming will get done, but less buying of said gaming products. You got the books, they're paid for, and it'll provide hours of entertainment over several years. I had to give an interview on this once and I borrowed a page from Marla (Fightclub), "It's cheaper than a movie and there's free coffee." Sad or true?
When you're poor, it costs nothing to have friends over to play w/ resources you already own. You might spend some $ on drinks, maybe food, but you were gonna' eat anyway that day, right? It's just now, you're ordering a pizza & beer instead of thawing some chicken and greens w/ a coke.
I mean, this is why we gamed so damn much in college (poor, like-minded guys and girls already nearby [campus], etc.). Same thing in grade school, especially before we could drive (the real money pit). Just allocating resources soundly.
Ironically, most of you guys/girls, gamers at large, probably do a better job of balancing your check books than the Feds did...
Other venues of entertainment are costly:
A movie is about $9.00 depending, and will entertain for 2 hrs, tops. Plus you gotta' drive there (gas), hassle at the line, a sea of blue screen dicks texting during the film, someone talking behind you. Don't get me wrong, I love the cinema, I just love gaming more. And if you're dating guys, well, you know where this is going. I can't remember the last time my girl treated me to a movie, art haus, main release, or otherwise...$$$
ADVICE: go to matinees. At the automated ticket machines, lie, say you're a senior. Use your student ID even if you graduated a few years back. Don't EVER buy at the concession stand. I know, Jr. Mints are the sh-t, but so is having $.
Concerts: screw Ticketmaster! They're crooks anyway. What's convenient about getting raped on the "convenience handling fee"? I could get a used 3.5 book and still go to the theatre, all of which will give me way more entertainment/use. Live music is totally unaffordable usually.
ADVICE: Support your local or indie bands anyway. Often they're better than mainstream crap, tickets are more reasonable, venues more hospitable. Last one I saw "Sisters of Mercy" was like $25 here in Cincy. 3 hrs of entertainment. Love the band, hate the venue. Give and take.
Bar/Club: pricey too. Granted, it's not static like a movie in that you might meet "that special someone"
, of course, you might get hit on by some gay guido too. Win some, lose some. Drinks are usually overpriced though the music might be killer. ADVICE: pitchers w/ friends if you must. Drink at home w/ folks unless you're looking "to get out". Not much you can do in this one.
IMO, ppl are gonna' game more w/ what they have given economic reasons and not continue buying more books given finances. Good for the gaming community, bad for the gaming industry. Watch for more trafficing of .pdfs too for sure. Now, if you have to work more to afford the "normal mode", then you game less given less time. But if you can just tighten your belt, game frequently w/ buddies, and be more pragmatic as a consumer (as we should've been already), you'll be okay and this will pass. It always does.
when it's harder for the little man to get a line of credit, he is more likely to spend his money differently.
That is an illusion. The little man doesn't have a line of credit at the banking corporations that are tanking. The little man, if he has a line of credit at all, has it at his local bank. I know, I opened one just to test the theory.
The banks that are tanking are big, corporate banks. My local credit union has only foreclosed on one (1) property during this mad rush and the rest of the mortgages they've made are doing perfectly fine. It's a bit odd, but without the bulk of their funds being commercial paper has actually made them stronger in these odd financial times.
It's just a game eh guys, one product on the market.
The local game stores I know of are unlikely to close. But you can assume the owner will be like the rest of us, a bit cautious about buying a new home.
If WOTC sold homes they might have problems.
Ahh, but there's the rub. Has Hasbro followed the rest of the major companies and invested their cash on hand in commercial paper? Did they join the rest and borrow against the future profits of the products they sell? A recession affects anything not required for survival, are toys and games a requirement to live?
Hasbro has a solid foundation. That's the reason they're at the top of the heap. But their survival may mean that divisions that don't produce positive numbers may get downsized or eliminated. If things look bad, product costs will either go up or down (to sell more, thus boosting flagging sales). Wizards of the Coast has already downsized, but whether that signals bracing for the storm, riding out the storm or a sign of possible collapse is anyone's guess, outside of the boardroom.
A bleak prospect, but that's about the extent of it. Without being privvy to the intricacies of the internal bookkeeping, no one will know how badly Hasbro may have jumped on the fatted calf that poisoned the financial institutions.
Considering the fluidity of the market, the best bet would be to enjoy their products now and hope they're still around in the years to come because of your support of their product lines.
If you have the money and don't mind possibly losing it, buy some of their stock and hold onto it. Removing their stock from the trading floor will ensure that it retains some of it's value. The loss of value in the market means that corporations can't use stock issuances to recapitalize. Without the ability to recapitalize in the open market, they have to seek financing from the banks that are tanking right and left.
The panic selling of stocks put everyone on the razor's edge, until the panic goes away and cooler heads begin targetted acquisition, the markets will continue to see collapsing corporations. The only real force that could do that sort of thing are governments and possibly a corporation that was managed solidly enough that it has the capital on hand to buy up millions of shares in faltering corporations. Without stability, the market will continue to plummet, driven by fears of financial ruin.
Will WotC be affected? I don't think even WotC knows...