Although yes, I would probably work for Zion at first, it wouldn't be long before I realized that Zion itself brainwashes innocent AIs-I've seen the Animatrix, you know-and that humanity instigated the Second Renaissance-Is that history propaganda? Maybe, but why are the Machines portrayed in there as being in the wrong as well? It isn't the most honorable tactic to kill diplomats, you know-it would occur to me that the Machines, while certainly not good, are not at all evil either, at least compared to the Zionite rebels. All they do is spread chaos in an orderly society, and while I certainly realize that being slave to a computer is certainly bad, it is far better then being a slave to a cause that, in the long run, is probably worse for humanity at large.
So, what do you think of my reasons?
So, what do you think of my reasons?
You do realize that it's fiction, right?
You do realize that it's fiction, right?
Yes.
Yes, in fact, I do.
This is a hypothetical.
Yes.
Yes, in fact, I do.
This is a hypothetical.
Well, going on that hypothetical...
I'd tell those tin cans where to put their power plug. :P
Butlerian Jihad !!!
Ack! Luis_Carlos has taken possession of Paul_profession_baker.
The most important thing to remember concerning the Matrix trilogy is to stop watching it after the first movie. If ya' can manage that, it's not all that bad. Unless you actually enjoy seeing a futuristic version of the story of Christ on the screen, that is. The religious overtones in the first movie were enough, IMO. Seeing Neo "on the cross" was just a tad over the top, no? ;) We get it. He's Jeebus. Yay. :P
Well, more a Christ/Buddha/etc. type figure. He was a mishmash, and it was annoying, because it felt like a mishmash in movies 2 and 3.
Movie 1 was at least more subtle about it, in a fairly good way.
Ack! Luis_Carlos has taken possession of Paul_profession_baker.
Well, more a Christ/Buddha/etc. type figure. He was a mishmash, and it was annoying, because it felt like a mishmash in movies 2 and 3.
Movie 1 was at least more subtle about it, in a fairly good way.
Yeah, it's a mishmash. I think I keyed on the Christ stuff because of how annoyed I was that when he died, he did so "on a cross". I mean, why? We got it a looooooooong time ago, really. So he saves the world, dies to do it and has to die like that? Irritating. And the first movie had so much promise for a trilogy, too. The second began the butchering and the third continued - but also felt the need to cram religion down our thoats. Bad! Bad Wachowski brothers! You suck! Or, as they say around these type places, obvious Christ surrogate is obvious. ;)
Yeah, it's a mishmash. I think I keyed on the Christ stuff because of how annoyed I was that when he died, he did so "on a cross". I mean, why? We got it a looooooooong time ago, really. So he saves the world, dies to do it and has to die like that? Irritating. And the first movie had so much promise for a trilogy, too. The second began the butchering and the third continued - but also felt the need to cram religion down our thoats. Bad! Bad Wachowski brothers! You suck! Or, as they say around these type places, obvious Christ surrogate is obvious. ;)
Obvious, poorly executed (pun intended) Christ surrogate is obvious and poorly executed.
Yeah, I didn't mind the vaguer, thought-provoking philosophy of the first one as much. Lots of things in the later ones ticked me off...Even the mecha.
Oh, and the only good AI is a dead AI. Or something like that.
PURGE THEM WITH SWORD AND BOLT AND FIRE!!!!
Wait, sorry, wrong universe.
PURGE THEM WITH SWORD AND BOLT AND FIRE!!!!
FOR THE EMPEROR!!!!!
Sorry, got carried away....
Obvious, poorly executed (pun intended) Christ surrogate is obvious and poorly executed.
Yeah, I didn't mind the vaguer, thought-provoking philosophy of the first one as much. Lots of things in the later ones ticked me off...Even the mecha.
Oh, and the only good AI is a dead AI. Or something like that.
PURGE THEM WITH SWORD AND BOLT AND FIRE!!!!
Wait, sorry, wrong universe.
Yep. The first one was fun to dissect to try and figure out what all of it could possibly mean. Then they decided in the other two to just smash it in our faces while pretending it was all still well-written and subtle. Wrong! :D The first one is great. The rest destroy the whole thing. I can't even watch the first one anymore. I know what happens down the road so it kinda kills the whole vibe, ya' know?
Lots of things in the later ones ticked me off...Even the mecha.
After seeing that (the mecha specifically), I felt the whole timeline came together.
It starts in Terminator, becomes the Matrix when Connor loses the war with the machines and culminates in Mechwarrior after the humans cast off the shackles of the AI and begin to explore the stars.
One of my buddies managed to work Firefly and Starwars into that timeline as well, but I've forgotten the transitional points to get there.
After seeing that (the mecha specifically), I felt the whole timeline came together.
It starts in Terminator, becomes the Matrix when Connor loses the war with the machines and culminates in Mechwarrior after the humans cast off the shackles of the AI and begin to explore the stars.
One of my buddies managed to work Firefly and Starwars into that timeline as well, but I've forgotten the transitional points to get there.
Awesome. More, More!(For the record, I still enjoy the second and third films of The Matrix, but I wish they had ended the series after the first movie.
Neo = God of the Matrix = Story over. Fill in your own details.
That's basically how I felt after watching the first movie)
So, what do you think of my reasons?
Needs more transhumanism. And I don't really get why humans and machines really had a war. Unless you think that both sides are overly governed by emotions, which I don't buy, at least in the case of the machines.
Cheers, LT.
If it's fiction; I'd have lots of sex, look awesome, then blow up lots of robots. Preferably at some point holding a large machine gun, shooting it with one hand despite the fact thats really inadvisable, and aiming by slowly scanning it from left to right while wasting lots of ammo.
In fact just imagine Rambo from the last movie, kicking the crap out of the transformers movie, with the sexyness of the sexy scene from blue velvet, plus some onegin just to show I'm also awesome in a sensitive ralph fiennes sort of way.
Or just this with robots http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcZSItexho8
Animatrix rocked...don't care who you are.
You forgot "Some parts of…" at the beginning of that sentence. ;)
The Matrix may have destroyed some of it's own awesomeness with the second and thrid films, but it doesn't even compare to how completely Lucas destroyed the coolness factor of Star Wars. The entire series is now tainted and unwatchable.
(For the record, I still enjoy the second and third films of The Matrix, but I wish they had ended the series after the first movie.
Neo = God of the Matrix = Story over. Fill in your own details.
That's basically how I felt after watching the first movie)
I liked the first movie but after watching animatrix and getting the full background I completely hated it, unless someone can explain to me how a planet can survive if the sun is blocked off? Nothing like destroying your self in the process of stopping the machines; also I would think the robots would be smart enough to build nuclear power plants instead of trying to get power from humans. Especially if then can plan and maintain a war. Complete drek.
I can hear you now: "But Leliel, the Machines are evil!" Really? Is it so evil to wish to survive by any means possible? Is it evil to allow humans to live in an endless golden age? Is it evil to allow humans to live at all, when in the long run, it's probably better to simply use fusion?
Although yes, I would probably work for Zion at first, it wouldn't be long before I realized that Zion itself brainwashes innocent AIs-I've seen the Animatrix, you know-and that humanity instigated the Second Renaissance-Is that history propaganda? Maybe, but why are the Machines portrayed in there as being in the wrong as well? It isn't the most honorable tactic to kill diplomats, you know-it would occur to me that the Machines, while certainly not good, are not at all evil either, at least compared to the Zionite rebels. All they do is spread chaos in an orderly society, and while I certainly realize that being slave to a computer is certainly bad, it is far better then being a slave to a cause that, in the long run, is probably worse for humanity at large.
So, what do you think of my reasons?
Back to the OP. Anarchy is utopia, and the only version of life worth living barring the existance of god. Lawlessness is bliss. Nature is ugly, and nature is rule. I would fight the machines first, and then continue fighting the humans.
I liked the first movie but after watching animatrix and getting the full background I completely hated it, unless someone can explain to me how a planet can survive if the sun is blocked off? Nothing like destroying your self in the process of stopping the machines; also I would think the robots would be smart enough to build nuclear power plants instead of trying to get power from humans. Especially if then can plan and maintain a war. Complete drek.
Emphasis mine.
Ahhh, do you mean the planet itself? or are we talking all the living breathing creatures there on? Because the planet itself would be just fine....I mean, it's just a large chunck of rock when you think about it.
As for the living breathing creatures, yeah, they're all dead except for whatever plants/animals the human are keeping alive for their own purposes, which actually isn't all that far fetched (you can grow plants without any actual sunlight, just ask anyone involved in illegal drug trades, or look at any of the drug busts where police find large, underground grow operations). You grow plants, feed them to animals, kill the animals and eat them. Or cut out the middle man and just eat the plants.
Emphasis mine.
Ahhh, do you mean the planet itself? or are we talking all the living breathing creatures there on? Because the planet itself would be just fine....I mean, it's just a large chunck of rock when you think about it.
As for the living breathing creatures, yeah, they're all dead except for whatever plants/animals the human are keeping alive for their own purposes, which actually isn't all that far fetched (you can grow plants without any actual sunlight, just ask anyone involved in illegal drug trades, or look at any of the drug busts where police find large, underground grow operations). You grow plants, feed them to animals, kill the animals and eat them. Or cut out the middle man and just eat the plants.
So professor, explain to me when the sun is gone how do you manage to make plants grow and what energy source do you use? Nuclear maybe? And how many Nuclear power plants would you need ? 100? 1,000? 1,000,000? Oh maybe they will use geothermal maybe you can explain that. So growing people for energy makes a lot of sense right? And I appreciate your eye for detail I didn’t know I had to be specific about what I meant when I said “how a planet can survive” you sure showed me the way so thanks for your snarky attitude.
So professor, explain to me when the sun is gone how do you manage to make plants grow and what energy source do you use? Nuclear maybe? And how many Nuclear power plants would you need ? 100? 1,000? 1,000,000? Oh maybe they will use geothermal maybe you can explain that. So growing people for energy makes a lot of sense right? And I appreciate your eye for detail I didn’t know I had to be specific about what I meant when I said “how a planet can survive” you sure showed me the way so thanks for your snarky attitude.
Ok...nuclear and geothermal...
Hmm lets see for a city like Xion...definitely need some grow lights.
or...
Are you asking how the machines kept people alive?
The fed them other people...and probably supplemented with some synthetic protein or something...eh don't remember much.
Back to the OP. Anarchy is utopia, and the only version of life worth living barring the existance of god. Lawlessness is bliss. Nature is ugly, and nature is rule. I would fight the machines first, and then continue fighting the humans.
Full of win.
So professor, explain to me when the sun is gone how do you manage to make plants grow and what energy source do you use? Nuclear maybe? And how many Nuclear power plants would you need ? 100? 1,000? 1,000,000? Oh maybe they will use geothermal maybe you can explain that.
cut out another middle man: the light.
It wouldn't be too far a stretch to genetically engineer some plants to work off electrosynthesis opposed to photosynthesis. That is, to use energy from separated charges(that is electric current) to produce sugars.
perhaps you apply a voltage across the two sides of the leaves... or abstract it even more and do it from roots to the branches, have two separated electrolyte channels and have most of the action in the trunk.
So growing people for energy makes a lot of sense right?
VG cats made a comment on this, but who says that is the actual reason, you remember the zion is the Architect's own idea, it could be fast one pulled by the machines. maybe they just felt like it, or like the entertainment. Or perhaps some influence form humanity is required to maintain sapience... losing that would definitely qualify as a lower form of existence necasary for survival.
cut out another middle man: the light.
It wouldn't be too far a stretch to genetically engineer some plants to work off electrosynthesis opposed to photosynthesis. That is, to use energy from separated charges(that is electric current) to produce sugars.
perhaps you apply a voltage across the two sides of the leaves... or abstract it even more and do it from roots to the branches, have two separated electrolyte channels and have most of the action in the trunk.
Interesting. I don't know if it his a far stretch, I am not a biologist, but I can see a few problems related to the polarisability of the proteins. But it would make some good SCI-FI. Another question is going to be efficency. We can produce cheap light using LEDs, the efficency of LEDs are pretty high.
VG cats made a comment on this, but who says that is the actual reason, you remember the zion is the Architect's own idea, it could be fast one pulled by the machines. maybe they just felt like it, or like the entertainment. Or perhaps some influence form humanity is required to maintain sapience... losing that would definitely qualify as a lower form of existence necasary for survival.
That is what I understood. They need humanity to reboot everything when things goes wrong. I don't like this ending, but it is what they suggest.
I liked the first movie but after watching animatrix and getting the full background I completely hated it, unless someone can explain to me how a planet can survive if the sun is blocked off? Nothing like destroying your self in the process of stopping the machines; also I would think the robots would be smart enough to build nuclear power plants instead of trying to get power from humans. Especially if then can plan and maintain a war. Complete drek.
I completly agree. I mean we are much more dependent on sun energy then robots. All they need is electricity, while we need complex biological matter, only produced by cycle fueled by sunlight, for nourishment. Covering the sun is much much more crippling for us then them. I imagine the best tactic would have been massive use of EMP devices, harmless for us (not our technology, but we can survive without it). Sure we can shield devices against such strategies, but the films show that the robots are not shielded. So I interpret the films as a SCI-FI in which the humain kind became stupid prior to the robot war.
Interesting. I don't know if it his a far stretch, I am not a biologist, but I can see a few problems related to the polarisability of the proteins. But it would make some good SCI-FI. Another question is going to be efficency. We can produce cheap light using LEDs, the efficency of LEDs are pretty high.
That is what I understood. They need humanity to reboot everything when things goes wrong. I don't like this ending, but it is what they suggest.
I completly agree. I mean we are much more dependent on sun energy then robots. All they need is electricity, while we need complex biological matter, only produced by cycle fueled by sunlight, for nourishment. Covering the sun is much much more crippling for us then them. I imagine the best tactic would have been massive use of EMP devices, harmless for us (not our technology, but we can survive without it). Sure we can shield devices against such strategies, but the films show that for the robots are not shielded. So I interpret the films as a SCI-FI in which the humain kind became stupid prior to the robot war.
Did you see the animatrix...
Humans released a ton of nukes before the did the sun in...
Wouldn't the EMPs from the nukes = win?
Wouldn't the EMPs from the nukes = win?
Electronics can be shielded against such attack. Especially in the future! :P
Electronics can be shielded against such attack. Especially in the future! :P
But the sad thing is...they were not.
Did you see the animatrix...
Humans released a ton of nukes before the did the sun in...
Wouldn't the EMPs from the nukes = win?
Were the nukes detonated at or near ground level? A quick check on Wiki states that EMPs really only kick in at high altitudes; as in, above 10 miles or more.
That's not to say that: A) humans maybe couldn't, for one reason or another, deliver the payload high enough to generate that kind of EMP, or B) more of the robots back then were shielded. After all, if you don't generally need shielding, why put it in? It's going to add weight and material cost (aka materials needed).
No...all of it...specially while impaired.
One would most certainly have to be impaired to believe that all of the Animatrix "rocked", since some of it was 100% pure unadulterated fat-free organicially-grown free-range suck.
Were the nukes detonated at or near ground level? A quick check on Wiki states that EMPs really only kick in at high altitudes; as in, above 10 miles or more.
That's not to say that: A) humans maybe couldn't, for one reason or another, deliver the payload high enough to generate that kind of EMP, or B) more of the robots back then were shielded. After all, if you don't generally need shielding, why put it in? It's going to add weight and material cost (aka materials needed).
Ya...but it does not make sense to me...Does it make sense to you?
If more robots back then were shielded...and the humans mainly use EMPs present...then why are the squids still running around without shielding if that is the only weapon the humans are using out and about?
One would most certainly have to be impaired to believe that all of the Animatrix "rocked", since some of it was 100% pure unadulterated fat-free organicially-grown free-range suck.
Nah I generally liked it as most people I know liked it.
I completly agree. I mean we are much more dependent on sun energy then robots. All they need is electricity, while we need complex biological matter, only produced by cycle fueled by sunlight, for nourishment. Covering the sun is much much more crippling for us then them. I imagine the best tactic would have been massive use of EMP devices, harmless for us (not our technology, but we can survive without it). Sure we can shield devices against such strategies, but the films show that for the robots are not shielded. So I interpret the films as a SCI-FI in which the humain kind became stupid prior to the robot war.
Exactly, good post.
Did you see the animatrix...
Only a few episodes, I lacked the interest to try and see them all.
Massive use of nukes is stupid also, machines are less affected by radiation. Sure the explosion by itself is pretty destructif, but the fallout is worse for humans. Sure, more modern bombs have less fallouts, but they still have too much.
As for the shielding, I understand it. I even mentioned it in my first post. What I don't understand is why they don't have any in the films. They are at war with Xion, so why not equip there soldiers? They would be unstoppable !!! I guess both the robots and the humans are stupid in this story. Or better yet, the authors did not think hard enough.
Only a few episodes, I lacked the interest to try and see them all.
Massive use of nukes is stupd also, machines are less affected by radiation. Sure the explosion by itself is pretty destructif, but the fallout is worse for humans. Sure, more modern bombs have less fallouts, but they still have too much.
As for the shielding, I understand it. I even mentioned it in my first post. What I don't understand is why they don't have any in the films. They are at war with Xion, so whe not equip there soldiers? They would be unstoppable !!! I guess both the robots and the humans are stupid in this story. Or better yet, the authors did not think hard enough.
So would you categorize this under Sci-Fi-Fantasy like Star Wars?
Only a few episodes, I lacked the interest to try and see them all.
Massive use of nukes is stupd also, machines are less affected by radiation. Sure the explosion by itself is pretty destructif, but the fallout is worse for humans. Sure, more modern bombs have less fallouts, but they still have too much.
As for the shielding, I understand it. I even mentioned it in my first post. What I don't understand is why they don't have any in the films. They are at war with Xion, so why not equip there soldiers? They would be unstoppable !!! I guess both the robots and the humans are stupid in this story. Or better yet, the authors did not think hard enough.
Perhaps the sentinels are not soldiers, but instead general maintenance robots, welding lasers are re-focussed as weopons and such.
When it caught on though, the machines reacted by creating the 2nd and 3rd movie, fashioning it in a way to ensure they didn't look like the bad guys and further doing the movies so badly it would discredit even the first. In a word, propaganda - by the matrix itself.
The second & third movie, while it had a few cool moments, should have never been made.
And, uh, I'd never work for the machines.
If I were a biochemist tasked with bioengineering food with no reliance on sunlight, I would go for chemosynthesis. It's the biological process employed by bacteria in extreme (high temperature, low pH, lots of heavy metals and no sun) environments at the bottom of the ocean instead of photosynthesis. Just engineer a lean, efficient chemosynthesizer and insert a gene that constitutively throws out simple sugars. After that it's a relatively simple (compared to engineering the organism in the first place) process to convert those sugars to amino acids, lipids, cholesterols, and other essential nutrients.
Sorry to digress, but I couldn't resit throwing my 2 cents out there!
In regards to the original post, I could imagine siding with the machines based on what the OP said, except that I could never trust them to uphold their end. Yes the machines need humans for now, and because of that give members of the Matrix essentially good lives in a fantasy universe. But what if they ever developed the tech to get rid of humans as a power source (which wouldn't seem to be that difficult)? Would they just eradicate humanity? That would be the most efficient course of action.
I couldn't trust the buggers, so I'd have to fight them.
Also II and III sucked.