I recently was asked to sit down with my niece and watch the new movie craze that everyone cannot seem to get enough of "Twilight". It was better then I had expected it to be and over all I guess I would give a 2 thumbs up except for this one major thing I saw in the way they are making out vampires to be. As having seen just about every movie and read alot more books on Vampires and seen them in the D&D book I understand how they work and that everywhere there are a couple of pieces to them that get change in some way so that they seem different in each others piece of work. What I really can not believe about this one is since when did Vampires SPARKLE AND BE ABOUT TO WALK IN THE OPEN OF DAY. I mean really come on now we have seen enough stuff to be able to tell when our legs are being pulled right. If they had only added one or the other I might have been able to believe this story line. Well no I probably still would not have but still really SPARKLING am I the only one in this world that thinks that that one thing is taking it a little to far????
Dracula could walk about in the daylight.
Isn't that because he was like really powerful or something? Or had an artifact? (Like how Strahd uses the Dayheart to go out in sunlight)
I haven't seen or read Twilight, but I don't have any hatred for it. *shrugs*
Isn't that because he was like really powerful or something? Or had an artifact? (Like how Strahd uses the Dayheart to go out in sunlight)
I believe his powers were supressed in daylight, so he didn't get animal forms, turning to mist, or all his other fun stuff. I think he still might have had a hypnotic gaze type dealie, but that could have been his personality. It's been a long time since I read that book.
Vampire Weaknesses
For all their power, vampires have a number of weaknesses.
Repelling a Vampire: Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action.
Vampires are also unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over it while resting in their coffins or aboard a ship.
They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. They may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all.
Slaying a Vampire: Reducing a vampire’s hit points to 0 or lower incapacitates it but doesn’t always destroy it (see the note on fast healing). However, certain attacks can slay vampires. Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape. Similarly, immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round of immersion. Driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster. However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the body is destroyed. A popular tactic is to cut off the creature’s head and fill its mouth with holy wafers (or their equivalent).
I believe the problem is that he stand in direct sunlight in the movie and nothing happens but a light show like he is covered in diamonds.
Dracula could walk about in the daylight.
But that's only because he's the only
Vampire.Believe me you really have to see the movie to understand but once he walks in the direct sunlight he starts sparkling not burning and turning to ash like they are suppose to.
For instance: Vampires were not affected my sunlight, stakes, garlic, water or holy items. Which made them (for the myths) even scarier back in the day. Of course, Vampire's were not considered to have super healing, super strength/agility/toughness or super senses either when the original myths were spoken. They were simply a demonic, blood sucking creature who's powers varied with the telling.
Very few "vampires" in fiction these days are "true vampires" if you wanna get all angst about it. :P TwiFail though (I love that term!) wasn't as far off as most people think. Though it was still a horrible, horrible book and movie and whatever else.
Fun fact: The original vampire myths, while mainly involving people disappearing at nighttime, made no distinction between day and night. The original vampire could move about the day just as well as it could night, usually without consequence. Around the eighteenth century vampire myth and fiction (which had steadily been added onto over the centuries before this time period), eventually reached what we now accept as "commonplace" for vampires and their powers, even though its a drastic shift from the original myths/fiction stories.
For instance: Vampires were not affected my sunlight, stakes, garlic, water or holy items. Which made them (for the myths) even scarier back in the day. Of course, Vampire's were not considered to have super healing, super strength/agility/toughness or super senses either when the original myths were spoken. They were simply a demonic, blood sucking creature who's powers varied with the telling.
Very few "vampires" in fiction these days are "true vampires" if you wanna get all angst about it. :P TwiFail though (I love that term!) wasn't as far off as most people think. Though it was still a horrible, horrible book and movie and whatever else.
Vampire myths come from a million places. You simplification sickens me almost as much as the phrase "Eastern Dragons". Twilight is a good book in my honest opinion. The following two books make a nice trilogy. However, I won't touch the fourth book with a ten foot pole.
A parody
Amusing. Except the Anne Rice joke doesn't make sense since she is a Catholic (although she wasn't at the time of writing her books).
Word.
Amusing. Except the Anne Rice joke doesn't make sense since she is a Catholic (although she wasn't at the time of writing her books).
I'll admit I'm not terribly clear on the various branches and sects of monotheistic religions that stem from Judaism, but isn't Christianity a catch-all term for religions that believe Christ was the savior and son of Gd (and all that jazz)? Not all Christians are Catholic, but aren't all Catholics christian?
Sure, it's the screenplay, and it also makes references to why Meyers fails as well.
excerpt
FADE IN:
EXT. WASHINGTON
KRISTEN STEWART goes to FORKS, WASHINGTON.
KRISTEN STEWART (V.O.)
Once upon a time, there lived an enchanting girl named Stephanie Meyer, er I mean Kristen Stewart. She was so awesome that her awesomeness couldn't be contained in Arizona, so she moved to Washington to stay with her father, who was totally lame and not cool.
EXT. WASHINGTON
KRISTEN STEWART goes to FORKS, WASHINGTON.
KRISTEN STEWART (V.O.)
Once upon a time, there lived an enchanting girl named Stephanie Meyer, er I mean Kristen Stewart. She was so awesome that her awesomeness couldn't be contained in Arizona, so she moved to Washington to stay with her father, who was totally lame and not cool.
Except the Anne Rice joke doesn't make sense since she is a Catholic (although she wasn't at the time of writing her books).
Do you even know what a Catholic is?
:D
Twifail is just about supernatural boyfriends. They aren't really vampires, they're emo may sues. A REAL vampire would be like Strahd (from Ravenloft) or Count Dracula.
Vampires are sexual predators with superpowers.
Vampires are sexual predators with superpowers.
But they're also damned.
Shiny-boy (Edgar? Edward?) is simply an emo-dude constantly whining about he's all evil and damned and crap, but never actually acts it out. He never loses his temper, his bloodlust seems more of a dietary quirk, and really the worst thing about his existence is that on sunny days daddy takes him out of school to play baseball during a thunderstorm. Which makes all his whining about why he can't turn Bella into a vampire preposterous.
P.S.: Not that I'm not enjoying this, but has anyone counted how many threads this lame excuse for a movie got on here?
P.S.: Not that I'm not enjoying this, but has anyone counted how many threads this lame excuse for a movie got on here?
No clue but I wouldn't be surprised if the movie+book have 12+ threads.
A really long one, though.
P.S.: Not that I'm not enjoying this, but has anyone counted how many threads this lame excuse for a movie got on here?
I haven't counted, but I find it very amusing how many people are perpetuating the fame/infamy of the movie/book by talking about it. Apparently the idea that if you don't like some piece of entertainment that isn't immoral/unethical that you should just shut up and let those that would enjoy it enjoy it in peace is... well, unpopular.
Sparkly:
Seriously?Also the books make vampirism not look like a big deal. Anne Rice should've watched Buffy or Angel.
Please forgive me if me adding another thread on this movie offended anyone. I did not mean for that to happen.
Sparkly:
Why not?
Because how can you properly angst if you light up like a frikkin' disco ball?
That would make me angst.
Seriously, I have heard through the grapevine (but not confirmed, and I'm not going to because I don't care enough) that the scene in which Edmund reveals his sparkly self came to Ms. Meyers in a dream, and she was quite adamant about not changing it.
For what it's worth, I hear in the books he is described as sparkling more like a slab of stone, like a statue with bits of micah embedded in it, and his skin feels the same way – cold and ungiving to the touch. The idea that the vampire looks and feels like he is made of stone sounds a little bit better to me than that he just sparkles like a hair metal singer. (And provides for some excellent opportunities for double entendre. "Oh, Edmund, you're so hard and rigid when you press against me like that.")
on page 260 at the begining of chapter 13 Confessions:
"Edward in the sunlight was amazing. I couldn't get used to it, though I'd been staring at him all afternoon.His skin though, white despite the faint flush from yesterday's hunting trip, literally sparkled, like thousands of tiny diamonds were embedded in the surface."
Despite a few detractors, there is mostly a consensus that Twilight sucks, whereas there was controversy in the Watchmen thread. Most of the Twilight threads seem to take the form, "Twilight sucks, m'right? Preach it." As a noncontroversial topic it is an easy way to get positive reinforcement in the form of assent from one's peers.
Well, but controversy should last longer than general consensus, does it not?
@EscherEnigma: I think the point is less that we don't like Twilight and more of a nerdrage about how it butchers one of our favourite and most iconic archetypes and actually perpetuates that in popculture! I mean, I don't wanna be the dead telling his little girl "Listen, I'll read you the story of Dracula", and she'll be like, "Who's that?" "A vampire." "Oh, one of the dudes that glow in the sun? Yawn."
Can you imagine that?
Well, but controversy should last longer than general consensus, does it not?
@EscherEnigma: I think the point is less that we don't like Twilight and more of a nerdrage about how it butchers one of our favourite and most iconic archetypes and actually perpetuates that in popculture! I mean, I don't wanna be the dead telling his little girl "Listen, I'll read you the story of Dracula", and she'll be like, "Who's that?" "A vampire." "Oh, one of the dudes that glow in the sun? Yawn."
Can you imagine that?
Meh. Anne Rice and her leather-wearing homoerotic vampires didn't ruin vampires forever, I doubt these new ones will either. People pretty much accept that mythical creatures like vampires, werewolves, and other things aren't going to be the same across different fiction, so I doubt any kids are going to get hung up this one writer's interpretation.
Still, this vampiric archetype is lot more famous (at least right now) than most others. Ah well, there's always hope that "This is a passing thing. This is a fad."
Well, but controversy should last longer than general consensus, does it not?
Approval is more desirable than conflict, so there will be more threads started seeking peer approval through shared rejection of pop culture.
Sort of like, on a classic punk forum you might see a "[Insert pop star/American Idol winner/current Top 40 hit] totally sucks!" thread started every week or so. The passion, vitriol, and investment in the "Ramones vs. Sex Pistols" thread might be more epic, but it's not a fight that the board can sustain every day.
Opposition to the icons of other subcultures encourages group cohesion, which makes everybody feel better about themselves.
Except for those of you bastards who like Twilight. For worshiping the graven sparkly image, you will be hunted like game as a rite of passage by the next generation of fantasy nerds.
Heck, I'm just happy that another fantasy movie was a success. Even if it's not something that would pull me to a theater, it'll make movie execs a little less nervous about making another fantasy movie. Hopefully next time they get a little good action/adventure/romance in there instead of this stuff. Personally I would love to see a movie based on Kim Harrison's the Hollows books or Patricia Brigg's Mercy Thompson novels. And Twilight pulling in the big numbers? It's a step closer to good (not merely popular) titles getting film adaptions.
For worshiping the graven sparkly image, you will be hunted like game as a rite of passage by the next generation of fantasy nerds.
Why the next? I want too
!!!Yeah, and think about all the stuff about witches and wizards while Harry Potter was big. Think about how much elves and swords were suddenly popular when the Lord of the Rings movies came out.
Heck, I'm just happy that another fantasy movie was a success. Even if it's not something that would pull me to a theater, it'll make movie execs a little less nervous about making another fantasy movie. Hopefully next time they get a little good action/adventure/romance in there instead of this stuff. Personally I would love to see a movie based on Kim Harrison's the Hollows books or Patricia Brigg's Mercy Thompson novels. And Twilight pulling in the big numbers? It's a step closer to good (not merely popular) titles getting film adaptions.
WHAT? You tell me that Twilight was rather good than popular?
And I disagree on the topic of fantasy movies. I would rather it remained a subculture forever, but actually made good films, than be watered down in teenage fangirl trash. And the Lord of the Rings? That wasn't popular (not mainstream, that is). Yet the movies were excellent. Different, yes, but excellent. I don't think producers are nervous about making fantasy movies. Indeed, this market seems almost over-saturated right now. No, they're nervous about making subculture movies (many of them, that is). And seeing how Twilight is completely in the trend right now, I doubt it'll change anything about producers' mindsets.
Why the next? I want too
The Running of the Twitards is a ritual for children who seek to pass into adulthood.
For we, the mighty hunters, there is a far more dangerous quest ahead: the purging of all those who would distribute Chick tracts at their local game shop without irony.
WHAT? You tell me that Twilight was rather good than popular?
No, I was saying that getting a fantasy movie (any fantasy movie) that does well at the box office is a step towards getting adaptions of good fantasy stories (as opposed to adaptions of fantasy stories that were popular).
As to the rest... /shrug You have a different opinion of things then I do, but I doubt either of us has any special insight into the industry, so I'm afraid it will stay that way, as opinions.
In this case, that's no longer a threat. Indeed, that would be more of trophy to teach the next generation about our many and diverse enemies and show them the perseverance gamer culture has always demonstrated!
But we need todays' threats to fight! And of these, Twilight seems the greatest right now. I concede it's rather puny, but it'll keep us fit, don't ya think?
As to the rest... /shrug You have a different opinion of things then I do, but I doubt either of us has any special insight into the industry, so I'm afraid it will stay that way, as opinions.
As everything else on these boards ;) .
Link doesn't work, though I suppose it leads to Dark Dungeons?
In this case, that's no longer a threat. Indeed, that would be more of trophy to teach the next generation about our many and diverse enemies and show them the perseverance gamer culture has always demonstrated!
But we need todays' threats to fight! And of these, Twilight seems the greatest right now. I concede it's rather puny, but it'll keep us fit, don't ya think?
In that case, let us feast on the entrails of our common enemy.
(I find it interesting that you can't link to the chick site from here. I have tried before and it never works. It seems that it is blocked. Did a bunch of spammers drop by and clog up the boards with links to Dark Dungeons at some point? People still come by my gameshop and leave Chick tracts. They keep them in a box on the counter. In addition, my shop is in a very Jewish neighborhood and several times I have seen a Hassidim come in screaming and chase away little boys in yamulkes who were sneaking some WoW time while their parents probably thought they were studying Hebrew or something.)
.But I remember Chick-related discussions being outlawed in the CoC or something because they too often turned into religious debates (read:
EDIT: No, wait. Not ethnocentric. What's Greek for faith again?
EDIT2: Pistis. Pistocentric? Doesn't seem right either.
EDIT3: Logocentric? Monachocentric? Whatever, it's a bastardization anyway. Let's go with Pistocentric, if you don't mind.
"Ani! Meesa all sparkly glowy! Now weesa can be together ALL the time! Yay Ani! Yay!"
:D
LOL!!!
as far as the movie goes, it wasn't as bad as some movies I have seen. Imo, it is a glorified chick flick that tries to stand out in the flux of the rest of them and gets the job done. My girlfriend loves the movie, as I suspect most women would. Could they have done things differently? Yes they could. Would they have lost something in translation in the process if they went with accepted norms? Probably.
This is just my opinion. The movie had elements that I did not like, but there were some that I liked as well.
I didn't really have a problem with the sunlight thing. Thought that it was just weird. But at the end we the hunter start popping up in all those mirrors. That is what put me off. It is like watching a dragon movie that has all the different types of dragons in it and every type has a fire breath weapon.
At least the director had the decency to give them all breath weapons.
EDIT3: Logocentric? Monachocentric? Whatever, it's a bastardization anyway. Let's go with Pistocentric, if you don't mind.
As a Greek, I could live with that
(Thriskeiocentric might be even better, but let's not be nitpicky here).Theocentric?
Theocentric flaming? That would sound like people were involved in God-bashing, which I really did not want to imply.
Oh, wait, the Greek agrees
!Thriskreiocentric? Wow... Makes a nice addition to my vocabulary, though :D .
Her one semi-sci-fi project has beknighted near perfect energy beings slowly Invasion of the Body Snatchersing the planet and she spends 2/3rds of the book wondering around in a desert going on about mixed love wangst feelings for her hosts bodiiiiieeeeeeeee...........!!!!!!!!!! ARRGGHHHGGHGHGHHG...ggkpptpt...
:headexplo :raincloud :surrender It's just crap. She's a fanfic writer who struck it big. David Gonterman gone bigtime in essence.
Her one semi-sci-fi project has beknighted near perfect energy beings slowly Invasion of the Body Snatchersing the planet and she spends 2/3rds of the book wondering around in a desert going on about mixed love wangst feelings for her hosts bodiiiiieeeeeeeee...........!!!!!!!!!! ARRGGHHHGGHGHGHHG...ggkpptpt...
Jesus... Would you mind writing this in a way for it to become understandable?
And what's "MST3King"?
Jesus... Would you mind writing this in a way for it to become understandable?
And what's "MST3King"?
Mystery Science Theater 3000. Often in the fanfic subculture when they would run across a bad story they would take the MST3K characters and make jokes about the work. Called MSTing. It fell out of favor in recent years because of issues over usage rights, etc. That and MST3K went off the air.
And sorry, I can put this simply. Anne Rice at her worse could write circles around Meyers. Her Vampires might have been pretty, but they were monsters. Evil monsters who at best could be considered anti-heroes. Meyers characters are badly written teen drama actors that would have better been served by being on some Nickeloden or Teen Disney 'drama'.
"Mystery Science Theater 3000" has got to be one of the greater comedy shows of all time.
Amen.
Well, thanks for clearing that up. I understand and I agree, yet... did your first post not mention aliens? Where do those come in?
Stephanie Meyer's next series is about bodysnatching aliens. There's a love triangle between a guy, a girl, and the alien puppetmaster who takes over her body.
Please tell me you are joking.
I cannot tell a lie.
Seriously, she's a romance author. Why do you care?
Seriously, she can write romance all she wants, but to take on first vampires and now skindancers is just tasteless on too many levels. The vampires glow in the sun, and let me guess: the possessing aliens will turn their hosts into vegetarians and give them a craving for warm water?
Come on.
EDIT: I second the hentai idea. We already worked out something like that for Twilight (I think it was with Idolis :D), but this one seems even a better fit.
BECAUSE SHE'S BUTCHERING OUR ARCHETYPES!
Seriously, she can write romance all she wants, but to take on first vampires and now skindancers is just tasteless on too many levels. The vampires glow in the sun, and let me guess: the possessing aliens will turn their hosts into vegetarians and give them a craving for warm water?
Come on.
EDIT: I second the hentai idea. We already worked out something like that for Twilight (I think it was with Idolis :D), but this one seems even a better fit.
Close. They create peace amongst warlike civilizations by taking over their bodies. Obviously one of the central conflicts is free will vs. peace and safety.
I want to explain that my wife is a young adult librarian, so she has to read all of these books for work, and she tells me about them. I have never read a Stephanie Meyer book and never will, so everything I am passing on here is second-hand.
Close. They create peace amongst warlike civilizations by taking over their bodies. Obviously one of the central conflicts is free will vs. peace and safety.
Who's with me in sending a letter to gleemax asking for a suicide-moticon?
EDIT: Sorry for your wife. Or you. Whoever suffers more from it.
Oh god. Her writing just sounds HORRIBLE. Even worse then the lamest fantasy authors.
No. She is the lamest fantasy author.
Seriously, she can write romance all she wants, but to take on first vampires and now skindancers is just tasteless on too many levels. The vampires glow in the sun, and let me guess: the possessing aliens will turn their hosts into vegetarians and give them a craving for warm water?
A wee bit possessive, aren't we? I'm not saying you have to like it, but people have been writing different stories, adding their own twists to different histories, mythologies, and everything under the sun. There are vampires that drink blood, that drink 'auras', that can be alive and walk in the sun, witches that invoke their potions with blood, vampire slayers that are cute young girls, monster hunters that need sex to kill things effectively...
With all this out there, this particular rage and hate seems... obsessive. Mythology is not yours, it is not mine, it is not Stephanie Myer's, it is not any single persons. It does not belong to anyone. It is public domain. That means that anyone can sit down and write a vampire story if they like, and they can make their vampires however they like. And if you don't like it? Well, don't like it.
But getting all worked up over it and trying to treat the woman as a heretic for writing fiction that doesn't appeal to you is... neurotic. Not to mention that you're getting it spoken about. Hell, if it weren't for people complaining about Twilight I never would have heard about it, and now I know about as much as I can without actually reading the book. And hell, for some writers, that's a pretty good achievement, getting your name out there and being famous (or infamous).
No. She is the lamest fantasy author.
No, she is trashy romance. FANTASY is along the lines of Tolkien, or Ed Greenwood. Y'know, things like Elminster, the making of a Mage, or The Lord Of The Rings. THAT is fantasy. Not Twifail and whtever the **** she's writing now.
Seriously though, I am not getting all that worked up over it. Yes, I know, she isn't the first to butcher mythology, but she is one of the most famous (at least right now). The prospect of my kids associating Dracula with shiny-boy and never being able to properly play V:tM frightens me. A bit.
I'm paranoid like that :P .
For someone calling himself an ivory tower elitist prick, you're pretty damn tolerant. Where's your healthy arrogance?
I don't know, I'm pretty arrogant about being tolerant. That or I'm going for irony.
I'm paranoid like that :P .
I think you're letting your paranoia get out of control. Buffy didn't ruin vampires, Angel didn't ruin vampires, Anne Rice didn't ruin vampires, and neither will Twilight.
Sides, if you have kids that associate all vampires with Twilight, sit down with them and watch all of Buffy (or at least the first three seasons). That should fix 'em.
I think that she needs to read about a REAL vampire. Maybe someone should give her a copy of I, Strahd
Good book?
I think that she needs to read about a REAL vampire. Maybe someone should give her a copy of I, Strahd
... if we're talking about 'real' vampires, shouldn't we be talking about Vlad III the Impaler or Countess Elizabeth Báthory?
God, I did a report on these two not too long ago, why didn't I think of them first?
Good call.
... if we're talking about 'real' vampires, shouldn't we be talking about Vlad III the Impaler or Countess Elizabeth Báthory?
Yeah those are two good RL examples. Especially the countess.
With all this out there, this particular rage and hate seems... obsessive. Mythology is not yours, it is not mine, it is not Stephanie Myer's, it is not any single persons. It does not belong to anyone. It is public domain. That means that anyone can sit down and write a vampire story if they like, and they can make their vampires however they like. And if you don't like it? Well, don't like it.
I think their pervasiveness of archetypes like the romantic vampire are precisely a reason to care about pop culture interpretations. For most of us, Dracula was probably the quintessential vampire growing up, but they've seen such a surge of popularity recently that I wouldn't be surprised if people ten years younger than me cited Buffy or something as their primary source of vampire lore.
Getting all worked up about it? Yeah, that's probably an overreaction. Commenting that you feel the current popular interpretation of the folklore misses what are, in your opinion, the most important aspects of the story and characters is not unreasonable. If we all own a little piece of folklore, then we're all certainly entitled to speak our piece on topics relating to it.
Hey, if vampires were a religious figure of ours, we might have already placed a fatwah on Meyers, so I'd say we haven't quite reached the level of dangerous paranoia and overreaction that other subcultures have about their folklore.
... if we're talking about 'real' vampires, shouldn't we be talking about Vlad III the Impaler or Countess Elizabeth Báthory?
Yeah, she did some smexy stuff. :D
Arguably, she was more the terror than good ol' Vlad Dracula. He butchered his enemies to invoke fear in them and give advantage to his defense of his lands. Bathory was just a spoiled, twisted ho. ;)
EDIT: Vladdy is also considered a national hero in Transylvania (Romania?).
In short, don't like it? Fine. But quite frankly, this is just like the fuss over the De Vinci Code. By complaining loud and strong about it, getting it's name all over the place, you're making people more curious about it. People love a spectacle, and you're giving it to them.
I've always disliked Vampires. I've liked Vlad the Impaler but that's because he is a RL badass. The original Dracula is kind of OK but everything else with Vampires is all sexed up in an unsmexy way (IMHO). I've always thought that Vampires were one of the least cool fantasy creatures.
Most of the vampires that I like are just monsters. They're generally modeled after Vlad the Impaler, Dracula, Elizabeth Bathory, and Strahd.
A) Villainous bastards.
B) Likeable characters that are just trying to live and let live after an idiot vampirized them.
The number of characters from type B is vanishingly small, though...
Most of the vampires that I like are just monsters. They're generally modeled after Vlad the Impaler, Dracula, Elizabeth Bathory, and Strahd.
Strahd kind of has too much love in his back story for me. Well, I'll admit I don't know a whole lot about him but I know the Ravenloft Strahd has quite a bit of romance/love fluff in his back story.
Strahd kind of has too much love in his back story for me. Well, I'll admit I don't know a whole lot about him but I know the Ravenloft Strahd has quite a bit of romance/love fluff in his back story.
He sure does. It's the reason he is what he is where he is. He's forced to relive her death annually, too. That's how it was in 2e anyways.
Personally, I accept two flavors of vampires:
A) Villainous bastards.
B) Likeable characters that are just trying to live and let live after an idiot vampirized them.
The number of characters from type B is vanishingly small, though...
Not sure if they're up your alley, but that sounds like it fits the vampires from both Kim Harrison's the Hollows and Patricia Brigg's Mercy Thompson books. Personally, I've been really impressed at the author's abilities to make sure vampires are still monstrous, but also (for some characters) sympathetic.
Most of the vampires that I like are just monsters. They're generally modeled after Vlad the Impaler, Dracula, Elizabeth Bathory, and Strahd.
Then how in the Nine can you be afraid to open a V:tM book?
Seriously, if there ever was a good translation of both the medieval and the gothic aspects (gothic as in Bram Stoker, not the subculture), it is this game. Fluffwise, I hold it as one of the - if not the - best RPG ever. A pity it was cancelled.
she's not a fantasy author. She's a romance author that has used fantasy themes
The distinction seems academic, if not outright moot. The story clearly has fantastical creatures interacting in fantastical ways. It makes no pretense to realism in any regard, so it's not one of those fence-sitting genres like "magical realism." Fantasy and romance often go together, often share themes, and are both common escapist genres. I'm not sure why it can't be both fantasy and romance at the same time, particularly since you are most likely to find it in a bookstore categorized by the age of the target audience rather than the content.
In short, don't like it? Fine. But quite frankly, this is just like the fuss over the De Vinci Code. By complaining loud and strong about it, getting it's name all over the place, you're making people more curious about it. People love a spectacle, and you're giving it to them.
Well, I'm certainly not trying to tell people not to read Stephanie Meyers. If she makes a few more book sales off of my comments in the Dungeons and Dragons fora, it would make me feel important and influential that people were intrigued enough based on my comments to seek out their source. What I am saying is that the way vampirism in the movie is portrayed, it is thoroughly uninteresting. There's a reason stories with vampire good guys usually depict the condition as curse. It makes the character more interesting, and balances his supernatural advantages with a burdensome moral flaw and an inescapable addiction. Turning vampirism into just another source of superpowers without shedding the cultural baggage results in a character who is both contradictory and boring – which is impressive because self-contradiction, in the hands of a stronger story, might be a decent source of conflict for the character.
I also find the vampirism-as-STD metaphor a little played out. Everybody knows zombies are the new horror movie ersatz STD. But that's neither here nor there.
Edit: forgot my conclusion. "Therefore, Stephanie Meyers deserves our ridicule."
He sure does. It's the reason he is what he is where he is. He's forced to relive her death annually, too. That's how it was in 2e anyways.
If I remember correctly it is like that in 3e also. I wonder if there will be a 4e Ravenloft ever. Probably not.
If I remember correctly it is like that in 3e also. I wonder if there will be a 4e Ravenloft ever. Probably not.
Well, there's some demand for it. Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Planescape and even Al Quadim (sp?) seem to be asked for a bit more, though. People do love their vampires, werewolves and liches, oh my! ;)
Then how in the Nine can you be afraid to open a V:tM book?
Seriously, if there ever was a good translation of both the medieval and the gothic aspects (gothic as in Bram Stoker, not the subculture), it is this game. Fluffwise, I hold it as one of the - if not the - best RPG ever. A pity it was cancelled.
I know, but most people don't and would associate me with Twifail.
I know, but most people don't and would associate me with Twifail.
Oh. Seems I misunderstood you then.
My way around it is grabbing books that don't say "vampire" on the cover. Book of Nod? Check. Those geeky enough to know the game will immediately recognize me as one of their own, for everyone else, the image of me will not really change.
I know, but most people don't and would associate me with Twifail.
... somehow I'm having a hard time imagining you holding back on educating them otherwise.
... somehow I'm having a hard time imagining you holding back on educating them otherwise.
Well, most of the guys around where I am BEAT guys that like Twifail, or anything that is even distantly connected to Twifail (like Vampires.)
A thick hentai? $10
Reading a hentai in religion class? Priceless.
Book Cover? 50 cents.
50 cents? psh. This site tells you how to make it yourself with stuff you probably have around the house: how to make a book cover
I see. Have you never heard of a book cover? I used to make them for my textbooks back in Middle/High school, using paper grocery bags. Sure it might not be pretty, but it means that your teacher doesn't yell at you for having a novel with the word 'hell' on the cover.
I still do this, because it gives me a place for my compulsive scribbling while reading.
What? Hell no! My religion class is pretty chill. Open minded religion teachers ftw!
So.....they're OK with students reading hentai when they're s'posed to be paying attention? Man, that kicks ass.
So.....they're OK with students reading hentai when they're s'posed to be paying attention? Man, that kicks ass.
They're okay with that in college. (Depending on your teacher)
For the most part as long as people aren't being disruptive the professors in college won't make a fuss if you're not giving them your undivided attention. Then again, if you don't want to be there why did you pay to get in?
Pretty much everything I hate about popular vampires.
As for glowy vampires...that wouldn't bother me, actually. If done right, it could make them seem really unnatural and creepy.
I tried to read Twilight. I was surprised. I was expecting the story to be bad (heard countless negative reviews), but I couldn't even get that far; the prose was just that bad.
QFT. See, I don't mind that she's doing sparkle vampires. I don't mind that she's doing wingfic. But if your going to do wingfic...you had better dial that up to 11 if your gonna sell it.
Case in point: Maximum Ride Series It's silly, it's wingfic, but god is it a better read.
She reads like your hearing stage directions from someone with a stutter. She uses all the narrative skills of a 10 year old. Blah.
Me, I don't read teen romances or watch teen movies. I also don't read or watch anything focusing on vampires or vampire hunters. I had a vampire BBEG prepared once (a crazed cleric of Nerull), but I didn't have the chance to use him and I probably never will.
In other words, I fart in your general direction ;P
For someone calling himself an ivory tower elitist prick, you're pretty damn tolerant. Where's your healthy arrogance?
Seriously though, I am not getting all that worked up over it. Yes, I know, she isn't the first to butcher mythology, but she is one of the most famous (at least right now). The prospect of my kids associating Dracula with shiny-boy and never being able to properly play V:tM frightens me. A bit.
I'm paranoid like that :P .
Haven't seen the D&D movie part 2 yet?:D
... if we're talking about 'real' vampires, shouldn't we be talking about Vlad III the Impaler or Countess Elizabeth Báthory?
Vampire Hunter D! Can't forget the greats.
Who's with me in sending a letter to gleemax asking for a suicide-moticon?
EDIT: Sorry for your wife. Or you. Whoever suffers more from it.
I for one will gladly second or third that motion because I am really tired of our favorite monsters of all times being butchered by her.
Why are we discussing teen romance again? Seriously. The basic plot sound like nothing different from a usual fantasy shoujo manga (the highschool kind). I don't see any threads about shoujo here.
Me, I don't read teen romances or watch teen movies. I also don't read or watch anything focusing on vampires or vampire hunters. I had a vampire BBEG prepared once (a crazed cleric of Nerull), but I didn't have the chance to use him and I probably never will.
In other words, I fart in your general direction ;P
Well lets see as I said when I started this thread we are talking about it because I watched It with my niece because she wanted me too and I am that kind of aunt. For the first thing. And for the second It just really makes alot of us mad that a species of fantasy creatures that is suppose to be bad ass killers is all sparkly and glows in the sunlight.
And for the second It just really makes alot of us mad that a species of fantasy creatures that is suppose to be bad ass killers is all sparkly and glows in the sunlight.
When were they suppose to be bad ass killers? I always thought they were suppose to be sexual predators or at least a metaphor for one or what not.
Very true also but at least that is closer then the other thing.
Who's with me in sending a letter to gleemax asking for a suicide-moticon?
I hate to derail, but this will not happen. Trust me on this, suicide is a very touchy subject to talk about, and if gleemax made an emoticon about it, they would face a lot of hate mail.
??? Are people reading the same VtM book as I do? VtM was full of "Alas, poor me, it sucks to be one as damned as I, I pity myself every night as I hit on the hot gothic chicks and I hate myself while having power enough to destroy half of the world".
Pretty much everything I hate about popular vampires.
Hmm... did you ever play the game?
Basically, what you quote there isn't all that far off - except for the fact that you truly do hate yourself. See, not every vampire can be Vlad the Impaler (sure, some are), but most are just random dudes with the misfortune to be bitten, generally simply for having been at the wrong place at the wrong time. People like you and me (I presume; I don't know you. Maybe you would be Vlad :P ). These must now sever all contacts to their former lives, can never see the sun again, are cold to all emotions they once had, and must prey on the living every night just to survive. They get to choose between being lone and hunted, being members of a sect that makes Aleister Crowley look like a hippie and that enjoys its monstrous nature waaay too much, or living in a nightmarish, cutthroat and authoritarian nocturnal aristocracy where they are but pawns in a never-ending powergame justified by the Greater Good. And above all things, whatever they decide, do, or feel, they must do in the constant awareness of the mightiest enemy of all, the darkest daemon they will ever face: the beast within. The evil within themselves. They get to live forever, but they know that one night, it will destroy them by devouring whatever splinter of their mortal soul still left.
And you know why they endure all that? Because they are weak. Because if they had any spine at all, they would long since have walked into the rising sun. But they have not. Maybe they convinced themselves that they could use their new powers to do good, but that is an illusion. They are a thrall to their powers, willing to do whatever it takes to live just one more night in the eternal Twilight (no, not that one
). Because, when confronted with your ultimate fear, there is no heroism; there is no reason; there is only utter dread, and the willingness to avoid it whatever the costs. It's like 1984 all over again.EDIT: Forgive the bathos. Might have gotten a bit carried away. Still, this goes to demonstrate why V:tM is not only a superior horror RPG, but also a modern interpretation of vampirism that actually makes sense and keeps the vampiric metaphor alive, showing that its eternal tale of weakness, evil and lust for power are as applicable to our world as their were to medieval Transsylvania.
@StealthMarmot: *sigh* I know my humor isn't always of the best taste, either. This is just the third time in two days that I oh so wish for a smilie pointing a gun at its head. Nothing to do with me or any actual suicide cases.
Very true also but at least that is closer then the other thing.
*shrug* I really don't like vampires and never have. I've never seen what was interesting about them except that they are like god like beings that can't go out during the day and they like to seduce women especially virgins...
...or something. I'm not completely sure. I don't twilight but not because of the whole vampire thing. As far as I'm concerned, popular culture destroyed vampires beyond likability a long time ago. I don't like the twilight because it's a romance novel.Hmm... did you ever play the game?
Basically, what you quote there isn't all that far off - except…
It sounds like you just said the exact same thing as Kobajagrande, except with more flowery language.
We think the rule of "taking away evil characters" is lame and we ignore them, regardless of system. (V:tM, Star Wars SAGA, ect)
EE, what my character would do is brutally cut his enemy apart, drain all of their blood into a bunch of jars, stick it in the freezer, and then drink from a goblet made out of one of his victim's skulls. That isn't a sexual metaphor. It's just sick. (which is what I was aiming for)
You need to read some Ellis to fully comprehend how wrong your assertion is. Violence and sex quite often go hand in hand. Many of his works kind of drift into this area. American Psycho alone would (probably) demonstrate that no matter how gruesome an act may be, sex can still be a huge part of it. I won't even get into real-world serial killer examples ...
We ignored those stupid rules. We didn't want namby pamby emo vampires.
Well that's different. I didn't know that you were forgoing those rules, so it would have been a good idea to state that you were doing so.
He just liked to see people suffer. How does hat have any relation to sex?
Well that's different. I didn't know that you were forgoing those rules, so it would have been a good idea to state that you were doing so.
Hehehe. Oops.
The character was celibate, though.
He just liked to see people suffer. How does hat have any relation to sex?
Have you ever heard about how the hero of story wields a big-ass sword because he's compensating for something? Same thing here, more or less.
The character was celibate, though.
He just liked to see people suffer. How does hat have any relation to sex?
There's a couple of real easy ones here that don't even need further elaboration from you. First, drinking blood is taking in someone else's bodily fluids. Second (don't worry, this one's deeper), the act of watching another being suffer by forcing that suffering upon them yourself is one of emotional exchange. You gain pleasure not from the act itself, but from the emotional response of the victim. The fact you enjoy it at all suggests sex. Two beings, an act, satisfaction from the act. Add in blood ingestion (keeping them with you - worse with vamps because it actually sustains them physically) and you get sexual metaphor. Nasty, but still sexy.
There's a couple of real easy ones here that don't even need further elaboration from you. First, drinking blood is taking in someone else's bodily fluids. Second (don't worry, this one's deeper), the act of watching another being suffer by forcing that suffering upon them yourself is one of emotional exchange. You gain pleasure not from the act itself, but from the emotional response of the victim. The fact you enjoy it at all suggests sex. Two beings, an act, satisfaction from the act. Add in blood ingestion (keeping them with you - worse with vamps because it actually sustains them physically) and you get sexual metaphor. Nasty, but still sexy.
Ahhh. OK, now I get what you mean.
We actually play with the normal path rules - if you're really comfortable with slaughtering innocents for fun, then get a path that lets you do it. Seriously. There are paths that don't encourage emo-ness. Humanity is simply for those who enjoy normal people who became vampires.
@lofgren: We might have different definitions here. To me, emo means something along the lines of "depressed, miserable and self-pitying with little actual reason". If - in real life - someone goes into a depression because he killed/lost someone, I don't call that emo. Edward is emo.
V:tM characters are generally horrified/depressed about the evil they now do almost as a matter of principle. To me, that's not emo. But then, I'm not the final authority on lexic.
@ Arm: You mean like your character? :P
More or less, but in my case the metaphor is intentional. Really, if the tail hasn't given it away, nothing will. :P
But yeah, what Z_B, but add that most scenes of violence have overtones that could easily be mistaked for those from a sex scene. It's kinda hard to elaborate on this without breaking the CoC, but it makes sense if you look at it from a detached perspective.
More or less, but in my case the metaphor is intentional. Really, if the tail hasn't given it away, nothing will. :P
But yeah, what Z_B, but add that most scenes of violence have overtones that could easily be mistaked for those from a sex scene. It's kinda hard to elaborate on this without breaking the CoC, but it makes sense if you look at it from a detached perspective.
Makes sense, since they form the two driving forces of Freudian psychology. I think. If I recall correctly.
We might have different definitions here. To me, emo means something along the lines of "depressed, miserable and self-pitying with little actual reason". If - in real life - someone goes into a depression because he killed/lost someone, I don't call that emo. Edward is emo.
V:tM characters are generally horrified/depressed about the evil they now do almost as a matter of principle. To me, that's not emo. But then, I'm not the final authority on lexic.
Sure, in real life. In real life, I wouldn't accuse somebody of being a Mary Sue because their parents had been horrifically killed but they grew up to be an awesome person and marry the man of their dreams, either.
I think pretending to have more reasons to feel sorry for yourself easily falls under the definition of emo. The obvious metaphors for overbearing parents, outdated sexual mores, and oppressive social pressures don't help. The game encourages you to create a character who would be so wicked awesome if only people would just leave you alone and let you be awesomely awesome, which pretty much describes my attitude towards life as a moderately emo teenager.
Ahhh. OK, now I get what you mean.
Check out serial killer stuff if you'd like to "get it" further. I'm not saying you meant - or even thought - your character to be this way. It's just how this stuff goes. That you didn't see it initially is actually, IMO, a good thing. Understanding the warped nature of a mind that takes pleasure beyond most will know from inflicting horrific acts upon others is probably a red flag. ;) Take a look at Jeffrey Dahmer. He did some sick, sick stuff for sexual (and love related) reasons. It's graphic stuff, but I feel it gives some insight into how these things can be much more than violent acts. For fictional stuff, American Psycho (the book) has some scenes in it that touch upon this. It's not spelled out as nicely as an analysis of a real man's actions, of course. But it's also quite a bit lighter, has humorous moments and is a great work of fiction.
Check out serial killer stuff if you'd like to "get it" further. I'm not saying you meant - or even thought - your character to be this way. It's just how this stuff goes. That you didn't see it initially is actually, IMO, a good thing. Understanding the warped nature of a mind that takes pleasure beyond most will know from inflicting horrific acts upon others is probably a red flag. ;) Take a look at Jeffrey Dahmer. He did some sick, sick stuff for sexual (and love related) reasons. It's graphic stuff, but I feel it gives some insight into how these things can be much more than violent acts. For fictional stuff, American Psycho (the book) has some scenes in it that touch upon this. It's not spelled out as nicely as an analysis of a real man's actions, of course. But it's also quite a bit lighter, has humorous moments and is a great work of fiction.
I just wanted to make a monster: but I had no idea it went that far.
I just wanted an RP challenge, since that character is the exact opposite of me. I am kind of creeped out by my own creation now.
I just wanted to make a monster: but I had no idea it went that far.
I just wanted an RP challenge, since that character is the exact opposite of me. I am kind of creeped out by my own creation now.
No reason to be, really. It wasn't even on your mind at the time. The whole Vampire thing kind of forced some of it, too. Nothing to get creeped out over. ;)
I think pretending to have more reasons to feel sorry for yourself easily falls under the definition of emo. The obvious metaphors for overbearing parents, outdated sexual mores, and oppressive social pressures don't help. The game encourages you to create a character who would be so wicked awesome if only people would just leave you alone and let you be awesomely awesome,
It's not just that. In V:tM, the inner evil plays a much more important role than all of the JUST-LEAVE-ME-ALONE!-stuff. Most characters don't want to be alone to be awesome, they want to be alone to be at peace. I don't know whether that's emo.
Trouble is, you can hide from everyone (though hiding from both the Malkavians and the Tremere is extremely hard), but you can't hide from yourself. I always hear people saying, "V:tM is emo and schizophrenic because it gives you a character ruled by something other than himself." That's not true. With all the talk about The Beast, people tend to forget that that is a rationalization, something that makes it more bearable by pretending to be the thrall to external powers. Really, the Beast is simply what you call the destructive side of your personality. Once you have convinced yourself that, as a vampire, you need to do evil to survive, that it's not your fault, you begin to do it with a certain naturel. There was an OotS strip some weeks ago saying, "The easiest way to get a good person to do evil is by telling her she isn't responsible for her actions." (Were my internet faster, I'd link it) That is, I think, what V:tM is all about. Not overbearing parents, not the fear of others, not even the fear of death: the suppressed knowledge that really, evil is a part of humanity. In this respect, The Addiction was a great V:tM movie. If you think about it, the game is simply nihilistic as all Hell.
It's not just that. In V:tM, the inner evil plays a much more important role than all of the JUST-LEAVE-ME-ALONE!-stuff. Most characters don't want to be alone to be awesome, they want to be alone to be at peace. I don't know whether that's emo.
Trouble is, you can hide from everyone (though hiding from both the Malkavians and the Tremere is extremely hard), but you can't hide from yourself. I always hear people saying, "V:tM is emo and schizophrenic because it gives you a character ruled by something other than himself." That's not true. With all the talk about The Beast, people tend to forget that that is a rationalization, something that makes it more bearable by pretending to be the thrall to external powers. Really, the Beast is simply what you call the destructive side of your personality. Once you have convinced yourself that, as a vampire, you need to do evil to survive, that it's not your fault, you begin to do it with a certain naturel. There was an OotS strip some weeks ago saying, "The easiest way to get a good person to do evil is by telling her she isn't responsible for her actions." (Were my internet faster, I'd link it) That is, I think, what V:tM is all about. Not overbearing parents, not the fear of others, not even the fear of death: the suppressed knowledge that really, evil is a part of humanity. In this respect, The Addiction was a great V:tM movie. If you think about it, the game is simply nihilistic as all Hell.
I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. None of that contradicts or even relates to what I was describing, and all of it sounds pretty emo to me. "Dude, I'm so, like, dark and evil and stuff." As far as I can tell, it sounds like it all still amounts to pretending to have more reasons to feel sorry for yourself.
Not that any one incarnation necessarily captures the essence of the game, but the TV version was pretty damn emo. About 85% of the screentime was given to that lead guy feeling sorry for himself because he was obscenely rich and powerful, even for a vampire, but a mortal woman might not, y'know, like like him.
What I am trying to get at is that the game doesn't give you reasons to feel sorry for yourself that aren't already there. To me, the game was rather philosophical in nature: it basically captures the recognition that you are alone, and that at least part of you is evil. Whether you feel sorry for yourself for that or not is up to you. Most normal people would be shocked at the realization, and as good roleplayers, we try to get that across. But for us as gamers, it is more a cynical attempt to hold a mirror to our own (and everyone else's) faces. Every chronicle I have played in has been something of a study of human nature, if you will. You don't become evil by becoming a vampire - you've been it all along. But then, all humans are, so feeling sorry for yourself is not the smart thing to do. Rather, our games would generally end with the characters owning up to, and either coming to terms with their existence (and I don't mean the vampiric one), or (rarely) trying to sacrifice themselves for some cause. In other words, they begin emo because that's what's expected (how would you react?), but they never end that way.
Did that make any sense at all?
Oh, and I don't know the TV show. Sounds pretty bad, though.
Reading my previous post, I realize that it makes little sense indeed. Let me try one last time:
What I am trying to get at is that the game doesn't give you reasons to feel sorry for yourself that aren't already there. To me, the game was rather philosophical in nature: it basically captures the recognition that you are alone, and that at least part of you is evil. Whether you feel sorry for yourself for that or not is up to you. Most normal people would be shocked at the realization, and as good roleplayers, we try to get that across. But for us as gamers, it is more a cynical attempt to hold a mirror to our own (and everyone else's) faces. Every chronicle I have played in has been something of a study of human nature, if you will. You don't become evil by becoming a vampire - you've been it all along. But then, all humans are, so feeling sorry for yourself is not the smart thing to do. Rather, our games would generally end with the characters owning up to, and either coming to terms with their existence (and I don't mean the vampiric one), or (rarely) trying to sacrifice themselves for some cause. In other words, they begin emo because that's what's expected (how would you react?), but they never end that way.
Did that make any sense at all?
Sure. Sounds pretty emo. Mostly this part: "it basically captures the recognition that you are alone, and that at least part of you is evil." Make it rhyme, put it in a song, and come up with a vaguely ironic three word phrase for your name and you'll have an emo band before you know it.
Oh, and I don't know the TV show. Sounds pretty bad, though.
Don't even get me started.
Sure. Sounds pretty emo. Mostly this part: "it basically captures the recognition that you are alone, and that at least part of you is evil."
No. That's nihilism. It's emo if you apply it only to yourself. Here, it is applied to everyone.
The other difference being, you don't crave pity for it. I mean you can (which still makes your character quite believable; after all, there's plenty of emos even without being vampires), but at least in my group, that's not the usual approach. Being emo is, I think, about wallowing in self-pity. Playing this game is about owning up to what you are. It may not be pretty, but at least it's a lot more decisive than emo-ism. Emos talk - rather, whine. This game forces you to act.
No. That's nihilism.
Difference being, you don't crave pity for it. I mean you can (which still makes your character quite believable; after all, there's plenty of emos even without being vampires), but at least in my group, that's not the usual approach. Being emo is, I think, about wallowing in self-pity. Playing this game is about owning up to what you are. It may not be pretty, but at least it's a lot more decisive than emo-ism. Emos talk - rather, whine. This game forces you to act.
You mean, talk about acting, and then roll dice?
That doesn't sound like any definition of nihilism I've ever seen. Let me check.
Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) is the philosophical position that values do not exist but rather are falsely invented. (wikipedia, obviously)
Yeah, that's the definition I'm familiar with. Once you start making value judgments, especially metaphysical ones like "evil," you're definitely outside the realm of nihilism. "Part of me is evil" is self-condemnatory, which is only a small step from self pitying.
I've never heard that being indecisive was indicative of emo, myself.
Seriously though, I had not quite understood that you were talking about the players. Whatever, looks like we're going nowhere here. Let's just agree to disagree. I can live with being emo...
NOBODY LISTENS TO ME!!! But if you want to do yourself a favour, watch The Addiction. Great movie that basically reshaped the way I played and thought about V:tM.
PS: About nihilism: keep reading. The confusion stems from the article apparently differentiating between several kinds of nihilism, of which you quote the moral nihilism (which I know as non-cognitivism) and I was referring to something more like existential nihilism.
Looks like I'm emo ;) .
Seriously though, I had not quite understood that you were talking about the players. Whatever, looks like we're going nowhere here. Let's just agree to disagree. I can live with being emo...
I'm talking about the characters the game system encourages you to build. (And like I said, I play this game, too, although in our current game I am a werewolf.)
But if you want to do yourself a favour, watch The Addiction. Great movie that basically reshaped the way I played and thought about V:tM.
Yeah, I saw it back in high school. I remember it being OK, but mostly just chock full of not-particularly-groundbreaking masturbatory internal monologues. I realize it's about college grad students, and college grad students love to go off on masturbatory monologues, but damn.
PS: About nihilism: keep reading. The confusion stems from the article apparently differentiating between several kinds of nihilism, of which you quote the moral nihilism (which I know as non-cognitivism) and I was referring to something more like existential nihilism.
You mean this?
"Existential nihilism is the belief that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. It can stem from scientific analysis that shows only the physical laws contributed to our existence. With respect to the universe, a single human or even the entire human species is insignificant and without purpose and can make no real change in the totality of existence."
Because that sounds not remotely like "You are alone and part of you is evil." There are no metaphysical value judgments, and loneliness does not seem particularly relevant. "No value" in this context is defined as impact on the universe, which is a hypothetically measurable assessment, as opposed to "evil," which is a metaphysical denouncement with no basis except human morals – the existence of which nihilism rejects as either illusions or simply evolved communal taboos. The emphasis is on the significance of the individual to the impassive universe, not the emotional turmoil within (which would probably be dismissed as meaningless).
I see no indication that V:tM is trying to underscore the fleeting meaningless and insignificance of human existence, if that is what you are trying to say. In fact, the books I have read underscore the significance and power gained by entering the vampire world, and obviously all World of Darkness games posit a metaphysical universe in which our lives make impressions that last long after we may die, and significant value is placed on human life. In a game about nihilism, the decision to kill or not would presumably be as irrelevant as an Arab in the sun.
I'm talking about the characters the game system encourages you to build. (And like I said, I play this game, too, although in our current game I am a werewolf.)
Now you have confused me. Two posts ago, you said "talk about acting, then roll the dice", so I thought you were talking about the players being emo. But the characters? Sure, some are emo, but just as many others (at least in my limited experience) are different: obsessive or insane or gratuitously violent or whatever. Sure, that's not positive, but they don't feel sorry for themselves. Often, they don't even acknowledge there's anything wrong with them. If that's what you mean, well, the point of WoD is to present a "darker" version of our world, isn't it?
Yeah, I saw it back in high school. I remember it being OK, but mostly just chock full of not-particularly-groundbreaking masturbatory internal monologues. I realize it's about college grad students, and college grad students love to go off on masturbatory monologues, but damn.
Huh. Well, as you might have noticed, I like masturbatory monologues
.You mean this?
"Existential nihilism is the belief that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. It can stem from scientific analysis that shows only the physical laws contributed to our existence. With respect to the universe, a single human or even the entire human species is insignificant and without purpose and can make no real change in the totality of existence."
Because that sounds not remotely like "You are alone and part of you is evil." There are no metaphysical value judgments, and loneliness does not seem particularly relevant. "No value" in this context is defined as impact on the universe, which is a hypothetically measurable assessment, as opposed to "evil," which is a metaphysical denouncement with no basis except human morals – the existence of which nihilism rejects as either illusions or simply evolved communal taboos. The emphasis is on the significance of the individual to the impassive universe, not the emotional turmoil within (which would probably be dismissed as meaningless).
No. What I mean is that morality has no value. Not that it doesn't exist.
Look, there is something which we refer to as "evil". Whether that is arbitrary, has communally grown or exists externally of us doesn't matter. The fact is, there are standards and principles that humanity is supposed to abide by. These might not be the exact same everywhere and at every time, but there are some fairly recurrent themes there. Both yourself and the rest of humanity expect you to behave. If you don't, that's "evil".
What I am trying to say is that (in some views at least), this morality has no value because humanity is actually incapable of abiding by its own principles. Most "evil" is not done out of wickedness, but out of weakness, the weakness of people who really want to follow their principles, but - for some reasons - don't. So our entire system of morality and principles and ideals is really a cruel joke because we are not able to live up to its expectations. Basically, we create labels, yet we cannot apply them to ourselves without some serious self-delusion.
Now, to V:tM. You have been a decent human being all your life. You've never done anything great or particularly meaningful, but you think of yourself as a good person. That's what most players start out as.
Now, you become a vampire through no fault of your own. Emotions only exist as echoes anymore, you can no longer walk the daylight or maintain your living contacts (generally), and are really just a hollow shell of your former self. You are no longer human. Worst: every night, you have to feed. To take blood from unwilling, sentient human beings. Otherwise, you will die (again).
As a human, you would never even have considered taking blood from an unwilling subject. But now that your existence is at stake, you do so as a matter of course - in the full awareness that one night, you will overdo it and kill your prey. You try to rationalize it, say you are a predator, that it's in the natural order of things, that you only take enough for survival, et cetera. But you are deluding yourself, because at its core, what you are doing is still a profoundly evil act. Maybe, you even have some sort of inner voice that tells you what you are doing is wrong, that your survival does not justify it, that you should stay up and watch the sun rise. Yet in most cases, you don't. You don't because in the face of your primal urges - the desire to stave off oblivion for just one more night - all principles and ideals and high morals collapse. You haven't turned into a monster. You've been one all along. And at that moment, when you realize what a grandiose self-delusion the entire human morality is, and that even in your living days, you were only "good" for a lack of pressure - because you were never tested -, that every human being can only cling to his principles as an armchair moralist, that civilization is only a thin veil over what is, and could at any moment become, a self-serving monster, that all high human ideals (love, friendship, honour) pale in the face of utter dread - it is at that moment that our games call for degeneration rolls.
Note: Please bear in mind that I don't necessarily subscribe to this rather bleak philosophy. But to me (and, apparently, the rest of my group as well), this is what the game has always been about. To us, you don't roll for morality because you are oh-so-sorry that you killed a human being. You roll because you recognize the truth of your human weakness.
@Ace of time: I know. I only played Vampire (both), and I must say that, although the new rules system is pretty elegant, I liked the metaplot of the old one way too much to really get hooked up on the new one. We are however experimenting right now with a mix, allowing us to use the (IMO much superior) ruleset of the new WoD for V:tM.
Which wouldn't be that extremely bad if it didn't attract pseudophilosophers who claim fake dept while wallowing in self-pity of their imaginary characters. Who are absolutely perfect killing machines, but that doesn't stop them to weep for every innocent soul they step on while in a train.
Or, alternatively, bunch of crazy kids who are spilling stuff like "my vampire is soooo eviiiillll and sooo cool... He slaughters mortals for breakfast. WTF OMG UB3R PWN ZOMG"
Meh. As long as it ain't LARPin', it's all good. Amirite? :P
FATAL LARP FTW!!!!!!
Sorry, I'm just slightly bored...
FATAL LARP FTW!!!!!!
Sorry, I'm just slightly bored...
Know what? So am I. Got any babies handy? ;)
Ok, if we're going to do this right, will we need to make adjustments to our own bodies if our rolls don't match reality? If It says I wear size 5 shoes, should I cut enough of my feet of to cram 'em into a pair?
???
???What's this crazy-talk about? You don't have any feet until the dice have decided otherwise. Our rolls don't have to match reality. They make reality. You can't even cut anything off until it says Weapon Proficiency (knife) on your character sheet - and I haven't gotten to the feats yet. We don't exist outside of our character sheets, allright?
Sheesh.
PS: It is so obvious you were totally not thinking about shoes as you typed that :P .
???
What's this crazy-talk about? You don't have any feet until the dice have decided otherwise. Our rolls don't have to match reality. They make reality. You can't even cut anything off until it says Weapon Proficiency (knife) on your character sheet - and I haven't gotten to the feats yet. We don't exist outside of our character sheets, allright?
Sheesh.
Crap. You're right, man. Wait ... have the dice decided you're right? Or that you're, you know, a man?
PS: It is so obvious you were totally not thinking about shoes as you typed that :P .
Well, I was and wasn't. I was thinkin' about taking a different tack but I've been stretchin' the CoC a bit too often as of late. ;) :P
@Ace of time: I know. I only played Vampire (both), and I must say that, although the new rules system is pretty elegant, I liked the metaplot of the old one way too much to really get hooked up on the new one. We are however experimenting right now with a mix, allowing us to use the (IMO much superior) ruleset of the new WoD for V:tM.
Well, the superficiality of the game's philosophizin' and the ultimate conclusion that blah, blah, blah bleak humans bad definitely sound emo to me.
Still, my understanding is that nihilism does not place value on morality at all. That is, the meaningless of existence and the illusion of morality are not a good thing or a bad thing, they just are. If you feel that this is a bad thing, that morality should be objective and real, then you aren't really a nihilist, you've just had a nihilistic epiphany.
As for the players/character bit, I guess what I mean is that the game encourages us to create characters who are natural extensions of our own emo-ness, which exists in everyone to some extent, even if we choose not to wallow in it like true emos.
I'm quoting the part above because I agree completely.
Well, the superficiality of the game's philosophizin' and the ultimate conclusion that blah, blah, blah bleak humans bad definitely sound emo to me.
Still, my understanding is that nihilism does not place value on morality at all. That is, the meaningless of existence and the illusion of morality are not a good thing or a bad thing, they just are. If you feel that this is a bad thing, that morality should be objective and real, then you aren't really a nihilist, you've just had a nihilistic epiphany.
I didn't say morality should be objective. But most people feel it is.
As for the players/character bit, I guess what I mean is that the game encourages us to create characters who are natural extensions of our own emo-ness, which exists in everyone to some extent, even if we choose not to wallow in it like true emos.
I can live with that
. I personally never felt that the game's philosophy was superficial, but what the Hell, to each one his own. You like the game, that's good enough for me.