Not that I'd contest it in any way, but still.
What's the point of this thread, aside from casting aspersions on my own integrity?
Well, recently, I've noticed a lot of threads in Filipino and American forums and sites where members argue by casting this allegation against another forum member, as if this were a valid form of rebuttal. ********.
I've always been strongly disinclined to answer a personal attack of this nature because it's a non-starter rebuttal. Any statement, whether intended as truth or deception should stand on its own merits with its own logical or factual backing. The truth of any particular statement has nothing to do with whatever integrity its speaker possesses.
If a statement is a lie, then it can be proven false without having to cast aspersions on whoever speaks it - the statement itself should bear witness to the character of who's saying it.
If a statement is true, then it will ultimately be proven true, again regardless of whatever level of integrity the speaker possesses. A truth spoken with the intent of deception because its speaker believes it to be falsehood (not to be confused with an intentionally misleading half-truth) doesn't suddenly become untrue.
Let's take an example here.
There are two apples on the table. One guy says that there are two, one guy says that there is one. You don't need to call the one guy a liar to prove that there are two apples on the table. Moreover, with something this obvious, the one guy who says that there's just one apple on the table either has a vision problem or is a consummate moron (not that there's anything wrong with being a moron).
Aside from that, I do lie. All the time, too. If my wife asks me whether any given dress makes her look fat, I know better than to answer with anything other than an instant "No." Sometimes it's untrue, but I'm never going to say it, and my wife knows that. When she asks me this question, she knows better than to expect any other answer - what she actually wants is to hear this answer, not the truth; so I give her this answer, not the truth.
You may think this is excusable. Allow me to sully my integrity even further. I lie when it suits my principles - which obviously doesn't include upholding speaking the truth all the time and at all costs. For instance, I don't blab, I don't gossip. It's against what I believe are sensible means of self-protection. Also, people are more likely to share secrets with you if they think you'll keep it to yourself.
So when asked if I know anything about X, I answer "No," if I think I'll be divulging information and "Yes," when I don't think there's any more information to be leaked (confirmatory or reinforcing opinions count as information, of course).
This isn't to say that I'm virtuous or anything - it's purely an intellectually calculated principle - gossips get gossiped about, inevitably. I would rather avoid that if I can.
Of course, lots of people are liars, too - nearly everyone does it, it's not just me. Dr House might be waxing melodramatic when he says it, but it's got something to it - everybody lies.
But in case anyone wants to use that to insult me or try to rebut a point I'm making, don't bother. I'll make that statement ironclad here for you.
I'm a liar, case closed. Next!
I didn't want to wax moral here because pronouncing broad moral sweeps calling Scripture into play makes me uneasy (I'm not really qualified to do that), but as I see it, telling lies out of courtesy and restraint isn't morally bankrupt and telling the truth where it's intentionally hurtful for the purpose of causing hurt can be much, much worse.
Indeed, blackmail is extortion based on telling the truth as a weapon!
Saying nothing also says something. Declining to answer a question like "Does this dress make me look fat?" is its own answer.
Don't ask the question if you don't really want the answer.
That may be so, but people aren't always thinking about everything that is coming out of their mouths. I know I have asked questions before that I really didn't mean, or expect to come out the way it was stated. Friends are the ones who will be honest with you, but also won't let it hurt.
The truth doesn't always have to be painful. It is my experience that the pain often comes in the delivery not in the message.
Does this dress make me look fat?
Painful answers: yes, or silence.
Less painful: yes, but you still look good to me; or yeah, but the fact that it matches your eyes completely make up for it. Or no, you look great but that is one ugly dress.
The truth doesn't always have to be painful. It is my experience that the pain often comes in the delivery not in the message.
But there are some things that will always be saddening and/or painful. It is friends who are willing to give sad and painful news rather than hide it with lies that just cause more pain in the end.
It is friends who are willing to give sad and painful news rather than hide it with lies that just cause more pain in the end.
I'm not sure what the last part modifies, 'friends' or 'lies'.
I would say that your best option would be to redirect the question or not answer at all. I choose the latter, but if you don't want look like an ass, perhaps something like "I don't know, but then, your body isn't the reason I love you". That should get her to drop the subject double-quick.
Some people prefer to have you lie to them about things like that. It's a bit of an imposition, asking you to reassure them about something they're feeling self-conscious about. I usually just hit them with both barrels and tell them that there are things they can do to remedy the things they don't like about themselves, but it's not as though I think any less of them because of it. In the end, I can say that I have never lied to any woman I loved.
about this:
I'm not sure what the last part modifies, 'friends' or 'lies'.
Hiding painful things with cheery fluff, to "protect" a person, often hurts more than being frank and honest from the beginning.
Hiding painful things with cheery fluff, to "protect" a person, often hurts more than being frank and honest from the beginning.
Not all of us are so easily Frank, but honest I can be.
Another annoying trend is to hold their own opinions as facts, thus thinking everyone that disagrees with them is wrong.
Put these two together and...
Fortunately, all my friends now come to me when they are looking for an honest opinion because they know I will do my best to be nice, but they will get the answer they seek as well. Sometimes these two things even jibe which is wonderful.
Now, ironicly I could've said, "sure," and gone on a date and had a terrible time, in which case I would not have lied...
I told a lie the other day at work. A woman I work with said I should ask this one girl out for a movie date, but the problem is the girl is...bigger, and I don't date people unless they attempt to work out or stay fit. Fickle of me I know, probably even vain, but if I take the time to take care of myself, I expect the person I'm dating to do it too. Anyways, I told the woman, "I don't think we would get along," instead of saying what I was thinking, "I don't date fat chicks," even though I think we could get along.
Being vain, knowing you are vain, and knowing what is important to you and having this opinion you have of fat people probably means you wouldn't get along.
Now, ironicly I could've said, "sure," and gone on a date and had a terrible time, in which case I would not have lied...
Or you might have gone on the date, had a great time, fallen in love and learned to look past your previously held prejudices.
Or you might have gone on the date, had a great time, fallen in love and learned to look past your previously held prejudices.
No trust me, we wouldn't have gotten along. She loves Britney Spears.
Being vain, knowing you are vain, and knowing what is important to you and having this opinion you have of fat people probably means you wouldn't get along.
I don't dislike fat people, I just don't find this girl attractive and her weight happens to be the main reason for it. And it's not a few extra pounds (I don't mind a woman with curves ;)), its obesity plain and simple. And surely you can admit that if you aren't attracted to someone, it goes nowhere fast.
No trust me, we wouldn't have gotten along. She loves Britney Spears.
I know I have torn it up at the Skating Rink once or twice to Britney Spears, I don't see much wrong with that. But I sense a little sarcasm here. ;)
I don't dislike fat people, I just don't find this girl attractive and her weight happens to be the main reason for it. And it's not a few extra pounds (I don't mind a woman with curves ;)), its obesity plain and simple. And surely you can admit that if you aren't attracted to someone, it goes nowhere fast.
In your original post you discussed common interests such as working out, and all that stuff being important to you. I know the time and energy this takes as I am a bit of a sports nut and I spend quite a bit of time working out. I am currently training for a half marathon next year, my goal is to do a full marathon in the next two. If something like this is so important to you and it is tied to your feelings about a person then it is likely you don't have a lot of common interests and it wouldn't work out between you two.
As far as attraction goes I think it is a weird thing. I have found attraction where I never thought it would be, and have not found attraction where it seems the only conclusion. Affairs of the heart are... funny.
I know the time and energy this takes as I am a bit of a sports nut and I spend quite a bit of time working out. I am currently training for a half marathon next year, my goal is to do a full marathon in the next two.
With a hurt knee?
I believe that one should not lie unless it is sarcasm or you are about to pull a prank. Other than those then you shouldn't lie. The main reason though is that I tend to be quite frank and blunt and so it is easier, less effort on my part, to be a prick if I tell the truth than if i tell a lie and milk it for a while. It's a strange feeling, but the idea that "today I may have the chance to be a prick with little effort" is what gets me up in the morning. I have learned over the years that it is all about delivery. I use my rude delivery to those that bother me (most people) and my nice delivery to those that I see as friends (its a small club).
.I would rather not come into conflict with him over this. He says he loves her and is planning on marrying her eventually, and I don't think its my place to get in the way just because I don't like her. I mean if he loves her why should I interfere with what makes him happy. My brother and I are best friends, and I'm serious when I say best friends, and I would rather lie than hurt our relationship.
I'm not saying "break his relationship" but instead let him now how you feel (if you think it is important). Think of it like this. If you don't like her and if she doesn't like you (you haven't indicated that this is true but usually those that have not friends and everyone hates tends to hate most people) then letting your brother know about your feeling for her now can possibly prevent confrontations in the future. If he knows your feelings then he knows that there is a possibility of some sort of confrontation between you two, but if he never knows, then if a fight does occur (especially a big one), your brother will be clueless to why two people whom supposedly like each other are fighting.
Telling the truth helps avoid confusion in the future.
I would rather not come into conflict with him over this. He says he loves her and is planning on marrying her eventually, and I don't think its my place to get in the way just because I don't like her. I mean if he loves her why should I interfere with what makes him happy. My brother and I are best friends, and I'm serious when I say best friends, and I would rather lie than hurt our relationship.
If you are best friends why would letting him know that you don't like her hurt the relationship. Isn't everyone due their opinion? He wouldn't respect your opinion?
This is not about whether it's always better to "tell the truth" or whether it's always better to "tell a lie." If you're not savvy enough to recognize context clues in any given situation, you should always tell the truth - that way you won't end up in a hairy situation alone with some schizoid weirdo.
Is my wife imposing on me when she asks me a question she doesn't want me to answer honestly at all?
Yes, she is. She knows that and I know that. We've known each other for years and years now, so we know what's what. I'm okay with giving her what she wants when she needs it because I love her.
Is it more harmful to sugarcoat things so that people don't get shotgunned in the face with crap?
It depends. You can't go in with a blanket statement into every situation and expect it to be okay. Certainly, we sugarcoat everything all the time. In fact, much of today's colloquialisms are based on this way of showing consideration for others. If everyone was perfectly okay with factual terms, words like "****," "****," and "*****" wouldn't be censored and we wouldn't need to think up imaginative terms of what are, after all, just normal human body parts and functions that are, let's face it, mundane everyday things.
Certainly, I don't find it easy to just go up to anyone and tell them pointblank that their husband or wife is now dead. You gotta tell them, but you gotta do it the right way.
In some instances, it's really not good to inform people of facts they're not equipped to handle. You shouldn't tell someone who's on the verge of a heart attack that their entire family is now mincemeat and possibly half-eaten. It may be the truth, but it's bad to say it, even when asked directly. In the long run, it's preferable to find a way to convey the right meaning in the right circumstance.
Why would it be bad to tell your friend that you think his girlfriend is annoying?
Well, there are number of possible reasons, but the most telling one is that that friend might, out of consideration for you, begin to spend less time with you because he's spending so much time with his girlfriend (and you're apparently mutually incompatible). You might subsequently tell him that you find that his company vastly outweighs any minor annoyance you have with his GF, but that might not solve the issue anyway.
So in this case, it's probably best to just let it slide and lie about it, because it's less complicated that way - and it does the same thing, functionally, if you and he had perfect understanding of a very complicated situation.
Is lying acceptable in a relationship?
My wife and I have been together for more than 10 years now. At the start of this thing, we resolved to always tell each other the truth. From experience in how our relationship has turned out, I can say that sometimes, you both know that you're not being completely truthful, but as long as you trust each other, it's okay. Trust and love are more important than truth.
I don't always tell my wife when something she's doing at the moment is driving me nuts. I'd tell her if it was a long-term habit or issue, but if it's just this one time, once-only thing, it's probably best to just forget about it. I'll just upset her about something that's ultimately unimportant and trivial, and I would rather not have to deal with that on top of the annoying thing.
Similarly, I don't count lying against her or our fund of trust if I feel that, on discovering the truth, that she was lying out of concern for me and was acting in my best interests. No, I would rather not have known that what I was stepping on was human remains right at the moment that I was walking. I didn't need to know that then, and I would rather never have found out about it. I'd have liked to have been warned about it beforehand, but as she was in no position to do that, it's not her fault.
You see, "telling the truth" for its own sake is often involved with conceit or pride. You can't bear to sully your own sense of self-righteousness for someone else's benefit. Commonly, you just can't sense anything that might be disadvantageous to that person from finding out what you know, or you just might think that truth is more important than people.
People aren't always very good at facing the truth. Often, they're very bad at it. They'll get depressed over something that eventually turns out to be inconsequential, or they get stressed over something they can't really do anything about. In fact, I have to regularly practice forgetting about stuff that I already know or I wouldn't get through the day with a sane mind.
After I take an important test, I do my best to forget I ever took one and get on to the next task at hand. Reminding me about this test isn't doing either me or you any good. It's true that I just took a life-defining test. Can we please not talk about it just now?
So in this case, it's probably best to just let it slide and lie about it, because it's less complicated that way
I agree with Roxlimn.
My brother and I are best friends, and I'm serious when I say best friends, and I would rather lie than hurt our relationship.
You are a good liar, I almost bought that one.
The difference between malicious lying and deception through other means (like intentionally witholding relevant information) is foggy at best. Deception is deception regardless of how you do it.
But lying isn't always malicious, and it isn't even always deceptive.
I am the type of person that believes that a relationship, no matter the type, is based off of trust, and I am the type of person that believes trust comes from truth and not lies.
I would rather have hurtful, yet truthful, criticisms rather than cheery lies.
A cheery lie doesn't have to be thoroughly misleading. You can egg on your friend to improve his singing without telling him how his singing really makes you feel.
I also believe that any long lasting relationship is built on trust, but trust comes not from truth but from love and faith. An Aes Sedai always tells the truth, but it's hard to trust one despite that. Conversely, Gandalf doesn't always tell the truth, but he can easily win you over and rightly earn your trust anyway.
That's a valid personal preferences, but I suspect that the reason you don't really mind hearing hurtful criticism is because you can't imagine a hurtful criticism really hurting you all that much.
yep
A cheery lie doesn't have to be thoroughly misleading. You can egg on your friend to improve his singing without telling him how his singing really makes you feel.
But I will tell him how bad he really is. Then I will give him advice and support on how to get better.
I also believe that any long lasting relationship is built on trust, but trust comes not from truth but from love and faith.
I don't have much faith in those that lie. I can't love one I have no faith in. So someone has to be truthful for me to love them.
An Aes Sedai always tells the truth, but it's hard to trust one despite that. Conversely, Gandalf doesn't always tell the truth, but he can easily win you over and rightly earn your trust anyway.
Aes-Sedai have learned how to bend the story so that it can have multiple meanings (this I do sort of consider lying). Also some of them no longer have the pact like ritual effecting them which means that they can lie their asses off (which they have).
Gandalf doesn't always tell the truth and he can when most people over but that doesn't change the fact that most people don't trust him. Most humans treat Gandalf as a bad omen.
But I will tell him how bad he really is. Then I will give him advice and support on how to get better.
Good luck on that. I'll tell you now, though, that that doesn't always work out the way you think it should. Truth is a tricky thing.
I don't have much faith in those that lie. I can't love one I have no faith in. So someone has to be truthful for me to love them.
That's a valid personal preference. That said, it's very possible for someone to hurt you very badly with a truthful statement. I hope it works out for you, but in case you're out in a weird situation where you're wondering whether it's worth it to trust someone who lies in your best interests, keep this thread in mind.
Aes-Sedai have learned how to bend the story so that it can have multiple meanings (this I do sort of consider lying). Also some of them no longer have the pact like ritual effecting them which means that they can lie their asses off (which they have).
If even telling the truth is lying, and no truth can be so terrible as to have major destructive effects, then I'm afraid that you and I apparently aren't using the same words to mean the same things.
Gandalf doesn't always tell the truth and he can when most people over but that doesn't change the fact that most people don't trust him. Most humans treat Gandalf as a bad omen.
Many, but not most.
He was considered a friend to Rohan and often welcomed at the King's court. Denethor distrusts him, but it was not always so, and he has allies even in Gondor. In the darker towns where no one trusts anyone else, he isn't trusted, but I take it that that's more because he's a Wizard than because of what he says or does.
dirtyfrank:If even telling the truth is lying, and no truth can be so terrible as to have major destructive effects, then I'm afraid that you and I apparently aren't using the same words to mean the same things.
The Aes-Sedai purposely word things in a way so that it is misleading. To me they intended for the person they are talking to not hear the truth even though they are telling it. They tell the truth but they word it in a way so that the truth will be will be misinterpreted. So even though the truth was told, it was purposely told in a manner that would lead to the listener not hearing the truth. To me this is lying. I believe that it is even explained within the book that this is their way of lying without lying.
Many, but not most.
He was considered a friend to Rohan and often welcomed at the King's court. Denethor distrusts him, but it was not always so, and he has allies even in Gondor. In the darker towns where no one trusts anyone else, he isn't trusted, but I take it that that's more because he's a Wizard than because of what he says or does.
I think that the big thing with Gandolf was that when ever he showed up was when something bad was about to happen.
The Aes Sedai parse the truth so that whoever is hearing it will hear whatever the Aes Sedai prefer for them to hear, even though what they're saying is factually true. This means that parsing information so that the listeners acts and behaves accordingly is inherent to communication.
All communication passes through at least two filters: your ability to phrase it, and the listener's ability to discern what you said.
Let's contrast Aes Sedai not-lying to the situation with the Fat Question.
My wife asks me if I think she looks fat and I say, "No." She knows I didn't really think about it, and I know I didn't really think about it. We both know what it is I'm actually saying, even though I'm not saying it that way. So what's happening here, by your terminology? A lie that's not a lie?
Generally, I am absolutely confused to why someone would ask a question like that when they know the answer they are going to get and that the answer given will not be what the person means. Questions like the one you gave in your example really **** me off.
Lots of people ask questions and expect to hear answers of that sort. It's actually quite commonplace.
You are a good liar, I almost bought that one.
Ouch
Lots of people ask questions and expect to hear answers of that sort. It's actually quite commonplace.
And I don't understand most people.
I don't think you want to. In order to understand people, you must be able to empathize with how they think and feel, and that means being able to set aside your convictions for a moment to truly understand where they stand and why.
That implies trying to understand how lying (among other things) is good and right, even laudable as far as some people are concerned. You don't have to believe in it yourself, but you have to be able to withold judgment long enough to be able to put yourself in their perspective.
Right now, it seems to me that it's more important for you to stand up for and voice out your belief in things you believe are true.
Right now, it seems to me that it's more important for you to stand up for and voice out your belief in things you believe are true.
What I believe is true is that I don't like lying, which means I'm going to try to not lie and I am not going to associate with those that do. I understand that some people like to lie, and that they like to base their entire life off of lying (my sister), I just don't understand to why they do it, when to me it seems like the bad thing to do. I don't have any personal zeal or major conviction about lying, I just see it to often screw things up. Lying tends to add to much confusion, deception, and drama where it doesn't need to be. I don't know why people choose to make their lives more difficult by lying. This is why I tell the truth, because it is easy, it saves time, it avoids tons of drama.
You see by lying to my brother and saying I like his girlfriend, I'm avoiding all sorts of drama. Now if I told the truth, God only knows where that will go.
By lying to him it allows for one explosive situation between you and your brothers girlfriend to happen because your brother never new it could happen. Thus causing a lot of unnecessary drama that could last the rest of your life and possibly end your relation ship with your brother, especially if it happens after he is married to her (because at this point she should come before you in your brother's eyes).
By lying to him it allows for one explosive situation between you and your brothers girlfriend to happen because your brother never new it could happen.
What would cause such an explosive situation? I don't see why you think this is all just going to go down the tubes. By saying I like her, I'm preventing drama between us. You make it sound as if the truth would be some great liberation, but it would just cause trouble. If I would go out and say, "dude, I don't like her," he would just get defensive and angry (I've hinted at it in the past, and he WOULD get angry). I don't see the point of going through all of that trouble when I can just say I like her and be done with it. As Roxlimn said, I'm just telling him what he wants to hear.
And if he ends up getting a divorce? What then? Yeah, man, I never liked her because she _____. You could've saved him some trouble through honesty, but chose the easy way out. That's one example of delayed drama, at least.
How would it be my fault if they get married and it fails?
What if they end up happily married? I'm sure my bro would love to hang out with the guy who doesn't like his wife.
I can have this discussion with my brothers and they are cool with my opinion. We have no hard feelings after wards. With my sister it is a bit of a different story. She always is angry with me when I tell her how I feel about her boyfriends, but in the end she ends up understanding and respecting my opinion (it usually takes quite a while but it eventually happens).
You're not being a good guy or acting heroically. You're being selfish trying to spare yourself some discomfort. That's not a good thing, IMO.
At any rate, there's no need to tell him you don't like her, either. If something were to happen, you'd be alright then. If something happens after you lie about it, you'll have far less stable ground to stand on.
You're not being a good guy or acting heroically. You're being selfish trying to spare yourself some discomfort. That's not a good thing, IMO.
I never claimed that lying to him was right, or that I was doing a good thing. That's why I posted it here, to admit I was lying and I know it's the easy way out, and that's the way I prefer it. You seem to have a lot of insight on their relationship (looks over shoulder) to be saying how it's going to crash and burn. It could just as easily, and more likely, end just fine.
When he does find out how you fee, which he will and it will likely be from someone other than you, he will not only be angry because you don't like his girlfriend but because you have been lying to him for an extended period of time.
How is he ever going to find out? Can he read my mind? I think not.This isn't something I go around telling people I know. My brother isn't very insightful, so I can not fathom a way he is just going to just "figure it out."
Things worked out in the end, but for a long while he was mad at me. Why? Because I didn't tell him something to avoid a problem that showed up eventually anyway.
Maybe your friend should have blamed himself for the relationship, instead of blaming you.
I never claimed that lying to him was right, or that I was doing a good thing. That's why I posted it here, to admit I was lying and I know it's the easy way out, and that's the way I prefer it. You seem to have a lot of insight on their relationship (looks over shoulder) to be saying how it's going to crash and burn. It could just as easily, and more likely, end just fine.
Let's slow down a sec. I never said it was going to end badly. I used it in an example illustrating how you could find eventual drama.
Well, if you know it's wrong, know it's selfish and actually prefer it that way, I think we're workin' on completely different planes, here. Though how you can't see how contradictory this is to the assertion that you actually care about your brother is something I cannot understand.
How is he ever going to find out? Can he read my mind? I think not.This isn't something I go around telling people I know. My brother isn't very insightful, so I can not fathom a way he is just going to just "figure it out."
People have this annoying ability to surprise.
Maybe your friend should have blamed himself for the relationship, instead of blaming you.
Why? I had information that could have saved him a ton of grief. I chose to withhold it to "keep things simple". If I'd have been less concerned with my own comfort and more concerned with our friendship, things would have worked out in a much better way. When he did confront me about it, I did finally man up and tell him exactly everything I knew and acknowledged fault. All of it, though, from the original issue all the way through to our cathartic confrontation could have been avoided. Not by something he could have done differently, but by something I could have handled better. Namely, being honest instead of selfish. ;)
Let's slow down a sec. I never said it was going to end badly. I used it in an example illustrating how you could find eventual drama.
Well, if you know it's wrong, know it's selfish and actually prefer it that way, I think we're workin' on completely different planes, here. Though how you can't see how contradictory this is to the assertion that you actually care about your brother is something I cannot understand.
I am going to have to second this especially the bold part.
I used it in an example illustrating how you could find eventual drama.
Or we could say I tell him I don't like her and why. He would tell her how I feel, but lets say they end up happily ever after anyways. Where does that leave me? He would tell her, and as of now, she is not the type of person to forgive and forget. She would always use me telling the truth as the reason against me.
It would probably help if I explain why I don't like her. She comes from a very wealthy family (not a bad thing ;)), and I thought she was okay at first, but then I started to get to know her. She would always talk about her friends in bad ways or talk about how she didn't like this person, which I don't like but didn't mind since everyone does it (gossip is to be expected from any woman)(sarcasm), but she did it ALL the time. That was just annoying, but I could deal with it. There are other things, but I won't go into because they are more religous (and I know how we frown on that here). The thing she did that turned me off to her was that she almost dumped my brother because he couldn't afford to go to Los Vegas with her and her friends. That is what mainly causes my dislike for her. I think she is very selfish, she is mean to my brother and dominates him, but I told him that and he just mumbles out some stupid excuse.
I know this is just some putz ranting on a Message Board, and this is just my side of the story, but that is how I feel. Like I said earlier, I have hinted at it, but I never went straight out and said I don't like her. And, if I did say that, he would choose her side anyways. If anything, I think he is lying to himself about the relationship, but anything I say will not change that. That is the point I'm trying to get across. So if it isn't going to change anything, why should I possibly hurt the relationship I have with my brother?
To me it sounds as if the relationship is failing (just going off of what you wrote) so it looks like it will fall apart no matter what you do. If not before they are married then after. If it does fall apart after they are married then you have allowed your brother to go through a divorce, which are almost always horrible experiences, when you could have spoken up and allowed him to make his own decision on whether or not he wanted to continue with his relation ship. After you tell him, if his relation ship fails, it is not your fault because you were open and honest and gave your brother your opinion. If you don't give advice, and things do go bad, you will likely have some guilt for being selfish by lying to him.
Just let it be what it is and roll with it.
That's pretty much what I've been doing. And I was refering to myself as the putz.
If it does fall apart after they are married then you have allowed your brother to go through a divorce, which are almost always horrible experiences, when you could have spoken up and allowed him to make his own decision on whether or not he wanted to continue with his relation ship
Hold on there cowboy, since when did divorce involve more than the husband and wife (and any possible third party affairs). That's like two people getting a divorce then saying it was the kid's fault. He had made his decision. I don't have any sercret knowledge about her that I'm not sharing (I would tell him that), he's seen her do everthing that I've seen. The only lie is that I don't tell him I don't like her. And he wouldn't break up with her just because I said I don't like her, he would be upset and tell her and then that all comes back on me. If it does fail, you yourself said, "it will fall apart no matter what you do." But I really do not believe it's going to fail.
That's pretty much what I've been doing. And I was refering to myself as the putz.
I know. I was callin' myself a putz as well. ;)
Hold on there cowboy, since when did divorce involve more than the husband and wife (and any possible third party affairs). That's like two people getting a divorce then saying it was the kid's fault. He had made his decision. I don't have any sercret knowledge about her that I'm not sharing (I would tell him that), he's seen her do everthing that I've seen. The only lie is that I don't tell him I don't like her. And he wouldn't break up with her just because I said I don't like her, he would be upset and tell her and then that all comes back on me. If it does fail, you yourself said, "it will fall apart no matter what you do." But I really do not believe it's going to fail.
What you have is a different perspective. If you allow your brother to see her from another perspective it possibly save him some grief and/or drama in the future. It would not be your fault for the relationship failing but it would be your fault, in many ways, for giving it the possibility to continue so that the brake up is much more painful for him, his girlfriend and those around them.
I understand why people lie (in some sense). I just don't understand why they lie when there are other options. Some times it has to do with guilt, and other times it has to do with image, etc. I just see lying, most of the time, as the worst way to go about something, yet people still choose the route of the lie.
People going around spouting truthfulness all the time, while retaining action driven by guilt or image isn't going to make it all better - they still will act more or less the same way, only they'd try to pussyfoot around lies - the underlying motivations and resulting essential actions are not changed.
What I believe is true is that I don't like lying, which means I'm going to try to not lie and I am not going to associate with those that do. I understand that some people like to lie, and that they like to base their entire life off of lying (my sister), I just don't understand to why they do it, when to me it seems like the bad thing to do. I don't have any personal zeal or major conviction about lying, I just see it to often screw things up. Lying tends to add to much confusion, deception, and drama where it doesn't need to be. I don't know why people choose to make their lives more difficult by lying. This is why I tell the truth, because it is easy, it saves time, it avoids tons of drama.
It's probably because you have chosen to live a simple, uncomplicated life.
As I mentioned before, truth is not always easy, it doesn't always save time, and it doesn't always avoid drama. Sometimes, it's the other way around.
Deception breeds deceptions, drama breeds drama. This occurs whether or not you lie. Lying may or may not add more but the central acting agency is often tangential to the lie itself, as Aes Sedai behavior adequately demonstrates.
Telling the world your viewpoint and opinion openly isn't as simple as that.
People going around spouting truthfulness all the time, while retaining action driven by guilt or image isn't going to make it all better - they still will act more or less the same way, only they'd try to pussyfoot around lies - the underlying motivations and resulting essential actions are not changed.
This part seems to be going right over my head so lets see if I can get close to what it's talking about. If I miss it completely let me know and try to reword it for me.
I don't think people should tell the truth because of guilt or image. Many people do tell the truth for these reasons, but the same thing also go for reason why people lie. Some will try and tell the truth, but because they have such a strong belief about not lying they will pussyfoot around to make sure that the interpretation is not the truth that was spoken. Some people are OK with that, and call it truth, but I see it as lying because it was meant to misdirect a person. So even though the truth was told it was never meant to be heard or understood.
Me personally, it is about my own personal CoC, that I have developed, because I often have trouble understanding the emotions behind peoples actions/behaviors. I can understand tangible factual reasons for decisions/behaviors, so I look to concrete (or as concrete as possible) rules as a guideline for my own CoC. My CoC has gotten more and more rigid and detail as I have aged and I have determined that being shady while telling the truth is basically lying in my eyes. Others my not see it that way, which is fine, but I have shown that that is basically lying to ones self (especially if one has made a promise to themselves about not lying). Because of my personal CoC, I have become a very frank and truthful person. Yes because of this I tend to be abrasive, which I'm fine with, and in being so I can tend to hurt peoples feelings. If the person wants to make a big fuss about me being a bit abrasive and start a fight/grudge of any kind then they aren't really the type of person I want in my life, so I don't care if I upset them. If they aren't this kind of person then they will eventually cool down.
It's probably because you have chosen to live a simple, uncomplicated life.
As I mentioned before, truth is not always easy, it doesn't always save time, and it doesn't always avoid drama. Sometimes, it's the other way around.
Deception breeds deceptions, drama breeds drama. This occurs whether or not you lie. Lying may or may not add more but the central acting agency is often tangential to the lie itself, as Aes Sedai behavior adequately demonstrates.
Telling the world your viewpoint and opinion openly isn't as simple as that.
I will admit that it does not save time in the beginning, however I do believe that it does save time overall throughout the course of ones life. I also believe the same thing with the drama.
If one does not deceive then they do not breed more deception.
Some drama is not cause by lying but rather by semantics, however it often seems to be written off as lying. I do believe that semantics are important to communication and thus being truthful. If both sides are willing to listen to one another and can understand each others semantics then this cuts down on the unintended deception, drama and claims of lying.
Regarding Morals and Empathy:
I think that your insistence on a rigid code of morals (something I notice a lot in my American friends, not so much in European or Asian) tends to render you incapable of understanding points of view that contradict the basic assumptions you make regarding terminology and values.
Since you've determined that lying is deception, nothing is going to sway you one way or another because you do not want to be swayed. This is not something that can be reasoned with or discussed so I don't think more progress is possible here regarding the nature of truth and lies. You have your opinions and have presented them. Thank you for your support.
Regarding complications:
It's not true that lying ultimately makes everything more complicated and I have a wealth of experience on incidents wherein lying would have been more expedient and ultimately lead to better or the same results. I may not be older than you, of course, but I do interview a ton of people about their lives and situations, and I'm an MD so people are more apt to be honest. Eventually anyway.
People don't always put honesty as the prime virtue or value in their lives. When faced with a life or death decision, many people discover that they are, after all, willing to lie about some things - even taking their secrets to their graves with them. This is not unusual.
You probably come off as abrasive sometimes because you care more about your self-worth - your own opinions and views of yourself and your values - more than you care about other people's feelings. This is not true for everyone, of course, and you seem like you already know that.
Drama can be caused by revealing truths that aren't meant to be revealed. There are some things that some people aren't prepared to know and handle on their own - it could even be that they realize this the moment you tell them and they curse you for it. Having practiced both telling the truth exclusively (to the point where I was also considered abrasive) and telling lies, I found not much difference overall, with a slight advantage to telling lies - simply because people assume that everybody tells lies so when you're doing the same, you're on the same wavelength as the rest of society.
For instance, a woman who tells you three times in a week that she's too busy to see you again is telling you that she's not interested in dating you. She's lying, but the meaning is quite clear in context, and is a common dating cue. Similarly, a girl you're dating who tells you after three mouthfuls of crab that she's already full probably isn't really full - but she has reasons not to eat anymore that she's not willing to share.
If one does not deceive then they do not breed more deception.
Intentionally allowing someone to believe something that is not true by inaction is deception. Thus all comments about saying nothing over lying are still achieving the development of deception.
Realistically there is no way not to have deception occur without spending all your time trying to explain to everyone your entire perspective of the world. I somehow doubt anyone in modern society can truthfully claim to be entirely truthful simply because of our common courtesy in public. No matter how hard you try to not talk to people, someone will eventually ask how you are doing. Most likely you will eventually be asked when you won't be doing very well at all, but will still claim to be (often without thinking about it). Lying was simply easier for all involved.
Truth and trust are often linked but certainly aren't the same thing. I have actually seen the circumstance where someone's whole family hated their husband (since they started dating), but never put that bluntly (they did comment early on about their dislikes, but rather than place a wedge between their daughter/sister opted to lie about liking him eventually). After she divorced him and the family stated their pure feelings (as portions were already known, just not all of it) there was no huge loss of trust or eruption of drama. Had they been more direct earlier, my wife (we're discussing her first marriage) would have simply had more stress than needed (and likely more panic attacks due to the stress) since nothing could be changed (she loves her family too much and hadn't yet reached any issues in the relationship). How would that have helped her more than their lying about liking him did?
I have an issue with being mostly honest (it's habitual for me), I have ruined plenty of my wife's days off by not lying about what minor inconsequential thing she did that annoyed me momentarily when she asked. The next thing I know we have been swept up into a whirlwind of trivial habits and defensive emotions (and often an upset 2yr old due to the negative emotions being tossed about). The truth I told wasn't important or meaningful, and were my wife and I not currently exhausted from raising our impish daughter (meaning practically no real free time to ourselves atm) these spats wouldn't happen. Then again, if I could just bite my damn tongue for a few seconds and not start the dominos falling, we might manage to get an actual day of relaxation to relieve some of this tension. Having spent my whole life believing that truth and honesty were always the best policies, I now find myself wishing I could lie for just a moment to help my entire family.
Trust (imo) also means trusting that someone will tell you the truth if something matters, but you can also count on to support you (and even lie to you when it is in your best interests, which can happen). I have also come to understand that it is not my right to deny another human being the "truth" that they percieve (and you can do more harm than good trying to show someone the "truth" if they don't want to see it). While some may claim that people who delude themselves and refuse to see the truth are better not to be around, I say using discretion (when to speak clearly, when to leave it alone, and when to lie if needed) is the better path to discover who ultimately can accept their own faults and grow from them (as anyone who blames someone not in the relationship who lacked critical information of a breach of trust is likely scapegoating to avoid dealing with their own problems). We all decieve ourselves in one way or another, even if we don't realize it. What matters is how we handle it when those deceptions fall away.
Just my opinion and experience for what they're worth.
Well said. Better put together than anything I have to say.
Lying and trust aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, lying to save someone's feelings from being hurt is often very effective. They might know you don't mean it, but I've found that just saying the words has a huge impact.
For instance:
Wife: Did you mind that I put away the Guitar Hero band set today?
Me: It's not important.
Wife: But you were looking forward to it all week! I didn't mean to. I just forgot about it. I'm sorry.
Me: It's okay.
Wife: You looked like you really wanted to play. You did, didn't you? You're annoyed at me, aren't you?
Me: No.
Wife: C'mon, tell me the truth.
Me: Alright. I'm a little disappointed that I can't play today, but I would prefer that we found something else that's fun to do rather than dwell on something that's already disappointed me and can't be changed. I don't have a whole lot of time, and I would rather we spent it on something that we both enjoy. It's not that important. It's more important that we spend quality time together now.
Wife: I see.
The "It's not important," phrase used to be a source of confusion back when we were dating because the wife didn't understand that I meant it quite literally - it's really not that big a deal, rather than the colloquial meaning which is "I don't want to talk about this." I was "lying" because I was using a different language game in which I was telling the literal truth, and I couldn't think of how else to put it.
You probably come off as abrasive sometimes because you care more about your self-worth - your own opinions and views of yourself and your values - more than you care about other people's feelings. This is not true for everyone, of course, and you seem like you already know that.
There is right for the most part. I do care a lot about my self. I also do care for others, but at the same time I do have difficulty emotions and attachment with others. It is hard for me to get attached to anything and, for the most part, it is hard for me to "fee" the full spectrum of emotions. Quite often I don't know know how I should be feeling in a situation, this is partly because I may often not feel anything emotionally, so I must instead go off of what I believe is socially acceptable. At the same time I have found that I can relate to people on an emotional level even though I may not have any of the deep emotional feelings for the moment. Relate may not be the best word for it is more like understanding how they feel without feeling it, or have felt it, myself. Anyways, because I have trouble feeling many different emotions it doesn't bother me one bit to cause harm to another (for the most part). I can lie without it bothering me, but what bothers me is that I can tell major lies without it bothering me. Society and religions say that lying is wrong and people often feel guilt when doing so but it is something that is hard for me to feel and thus fully understand. Since, one should not lie, according to many different moral compasses, I have decided to try and be as truthful as possible, but because I do have trouble with the emotional part I tend to be abrasive. I can hurt people with no problem so I figured that if I was going to hurt people I would to it with the truth rather than with lies.
This is a bit of incite into how I function and see things. I'm not going to look down on those that lie. If they can have a happy fulfilling life while lying then the more power to them, however I will not enjoy associating with the. And yes, encase your wondering, I don't care much for the company of others and tend to be happiest when alone. Heck, I tend to like animals more then people. So again this is why I tell the truth. I try and tell the truth regardless. I understand it doesn't work for all. Everyone has there own comfort level for everything, which is perfectly fine.
I totally get that. I used to have a great deal of difficulty feeling anything and empathizing with other people, too. I still kind of have this problem. I don't know if that's related to some kind of disorder or other, but it does make it hard to guess what other people are feeling when you don't feel much of anything yourself.
Social mores and religion instruct us not to lie, but note that religion doesn't proscribe secrecy - which implies that lying is okay so long as you do it for the right reasons. For instance, you're not supposed to make charity public. It seems to be okay to deny that you have anything to do with the soup kitchen you're paying for.
That said, without empathy to guide you, it can be very difficult yo determine what's acceptable and what is not. In your case, I think you're making the correct decision. Being abrasive is a lot better than being a sociopath. We who have problems with empathy have a real danger of becoming just that.
stompie5:
It would have taken a lot of time to get it out and set it up again. I preferred to use my time playing Boom Blox instead. I'd have challenged her to a head to head on Tetris, but I'd have destroyed her and that's not fun.
For instance, you're not supposed to make charity public. It seems to be okay to deny that you have anything to do with the soup kitchen you're paying for.
With me, rather than denying my charity I just tell people that I feel it isn't there business and that I wouldn't like to discuss such matters with them.
Basically in similar situations my response is one of denying to talk about it rather than saying the opposite of what I do. This works for me, so I do it, but ya I can understand why people would deny such things.