John McCain 2008
P.O. Box 16118
Arlington, VA 22215
(703) 418-2008
This is not about political affiliations or even who you think would be the best president.
This is about prejudice and unfair treatment. Click on the link below to send a message to the McCain camp.
http://www.johnmccain.com/Contact/
BTW I am a 47 year old conservative Christian, gamer, teacher, homeowner, and father of two so don't accuse me of being a knee jerk liberal that lives in my parents' basement. I am mad as Hell and I am not taking it any more!
For background information click on the site below:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/18/mccain-camp-slams-skeptics-of-his-saddleback-cross-story/
Peace,
Fallstorm
Calm. Down.
Umm. I think the stereotype about gamers exists for a valid reason: it is largely true. And I thought it was a funny quip. Making a fuss about it is like violently denying that you are gay. Just relax and let it go.
I thought the stereotype was military players?
Anyway I'm personally not outraged by the statement. I do think it's stupid, but I don't really think about it. Like another poster said, other groups get potshots all the time. We're no different.
I agree. Just shrug it off. It's not a big deal.
I thought the stereotype was military players?
Anyway I'm personally not outraged by the statement. I do think it's stupid, but I don't really think about it. Like another poster said, other groups get potshots all the time. We're no different.
I agree. Just shrug it off. It's not a big deal.
I'd agree if this Goldfarb fellow was some supremely wise individual who was beyond reproach, however he is just a spokesman for some crazy old ****tard trying to run for president.
6 years of service here.
McCain would not put his email and address up if he did not want to hear from Americans. I would only advise that you would likely be better off writing since I hear McCain doesn't use computers.
*****
McCain camp slams cross story skeptics
Posted: 05:28 PM ET
From CNN Associate Political Editor Rebecca Sinderbrand
A still from McCain’s cross ad, which ran this winter.
(CNN) — John McCain’s campaign blasted critics who questioned the senator’s account of an incident during his time as a prisoner of war Monday, citing an account from his former fellow POW Orson Swindle and blaming the controversy on “the pro-Obama Dungeons & Dragons crowd.”
During a presidential forum at Pastor Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church on Saturday, McCain told a story of a guard who wordlessly drew a cross in the dirt one Christmas, describing it as a moment that gave him strength.
Critics in the blogosphere said that McCain, who was released in 1973, had not mentioned the incident until shortly before his 2000 presidential bid, and had relayed it in the third person on at least one occasion. They also pointed to similarities between McCain’s account and a similar story in Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, his account of life in the Soviet labor camp system.
McCain aide Michael Goldfarb, in a message posted on the campaign’s Web site Monday, said Swindle – now a campaign surrogate – told him the presumptive Republican nominee had related the story “’when we first moved in together [in captivity].’ That was in the summer of 1971, Swindle said, though ‘time blurred’ and he couldn't be sure,” wrote Goldfarb.
He also said that it was logical that Christians in both Russia and Vietnam might have used many of the same subtle signals during that era.
“It may be typical of the pro-Obama Dungeons & Dragons crowd to disparage a fellow countryman's memory of war from the comfort of mom's basement, but most Americans have the humility and gratitude to respect and learn from the memories of men who suffered on behalf of others,” he wrote.
“John McCain has often said he witnessed a thousand acts of bravery while he was imprisoned, and though not every one has been submitted into the public record, they are remembered by the men who were there (one such only recently reported by Karl Rove though it escaped mention in any of Senator McCain's books). But as Swindle said, this is a ‘desperate group of people trying to make something out of nothing.’”
In December, shortly before the primary season began, McCain's campaign used the story of the cross as the basis for a Christmas-themed campaign ad.
Filed under: John McCain
148 Comments | Permalink
Stacey Ellis August 18th, 2008 6:02 pm ET
The first to recognize McCain's posible plagerism was a republican blog in 2005- not a democrat. See Dailly Kos for explanation.
That'll teach 'em! ;)
Jeez, could you give a little warning first? You just clogged up my sarcasm filter with that one. I agree, by the way. Just don't vote for him if it was that bloody offensive. besides, do you really want the republicans trying to court the D&D vote? Think about how messy that would be.
Jeez, could you give a little warning first? You just clogged up my sarcasm filter with that one. I agree, by the way. Just don't vote for him if it was that bloody offensive. besides, do you really want the republicans trying to court the D&D vote? Think about how messy that would be.
I want to see them court the fundie vote and the D&D vote at the same time.
Ideological cage match.
Of course, if anyone can do it it's Rove.
Jeez, could you give a little warning first? You just clogged up my sarcasm filter with that one. I agree, by the way. Just don't vote for him if it was that bloody offensive. besides, do you really want the republicans trying to court the D&D vote? Think about how messy that would be.
:D Sorry 'bout that. Got a tad carried away, I guess. You're right, though. If it's that big of a deal just don't vote for the guy. I do happen to believe that those making the biggest noise about this have already made that decision (for better reasons - I hope), though, and are using this as a sort of springboard to attack McCain yet again. And to me, it's a damned silly reason not to vote for someone. But that's just me. And I'm positive I do things for reasons others would find silly as well. So I don't care. Though if I truly don't care, why did I feel the need to comment on this in two threads now? Hmm. *Slowly walks off, chin in hand, to ponder his true position on the matter* ;)
ARE WE MEN OR ARE WE MICE!!!
Neither. I'm a Lich myself.
I suppose if you all want to make a real difference, send lots of communications to Lord Death Despoil begging him to release his orders not to let me invade Earth and I'll sort this mess out sharpish.
Of course, if anyone can do it it's Rove.
Somebody shoot that fat little man already. Personally I hope Obama wins and goes after that wretched, scheming little weasel. If half the things I've heard and read about him are true, I want to see him hanged on the steps of the congress. We could do it on the Fourth of July in 2009, just so that the people can see what a traitor's death looks like.
Somebody shoot that fat little man already. Personally I hope Obama wins and goes after that wretched, scheming little weasel. If half the things I've heard and read about him are true, I want to see him hanged on the steps of the congress. We could do it on the Fourth of July in 2009, just so that the people can see what a traitor's death looks like.
Yeah, I don't have anything nicer than that to say about him either.
It's incredibly disappointing to me that McCain has brought him in as an unofficial "campaign advisor." I used to have quite a bit of respect for John, even if I disagreed with him about most things. Now, he's just another hack Republican throwing mud. It's sad.
If Obama said it, I wouldn't have cared either. It's just another ignorant statement from a politician. After all, let's not forget the Democrats' Night Trap/violent game crusade back in the 90's. All politicians are ignorant. It's an unfortunate, cynical outlook, but that's the way it is. Pick the lesser of the evils; such is our fate.
In the end, if a comment like that is going to determine your vote for who will run the USA, then you need to re-prioritize.
In the end, if a comment like that is going to determine your vote for who will run the USA, then you need to re-prioritize.
Actually, I think it's more that you're choosing the person that's going to choose the person that's going to appoint the people that will run the country. It's that whole electoral college thing and then the fact that the President doesn't really run anything, he just appoints the real movers and shakers.
Considering all of that, I think any comment he makes that disparages a portion of the country that he doesn't even have the foggiest clue about signals his care and concern for the people of this great nation. He chose to make comments about D&D players when he was speaking to a group of fundie neo-cons. Considering his willingness to insult one group when speaking to another, what will he do when he gets into office? I'm not sure Obama is any different, but then again he didn't make a comment that prompted multiple threads on this forum.
Yeah, I don't have anything nicer than that to say about him either.
It's incredibly disappointing to me that McCain has brought him in as an unofficial "campaign advisor." I used to have quite a bit of respect for John, even if I disagreed with him about most things. Now, he's just another hack Republican throwing mud. It's sad.
Im not surprised, I lost all respect for Mccain when he supported Busch after the personal attacks against Mccains family, I dont care if it is politics a man that supports that is not someone I want in office.
There is also the fact that his entire campaign has been nothing but negative attacks.
In addition we should string up Dick Chenney along side him, why the man leaked the name of an undercover CIA agent to the press soley for political reasons during a time of war and got away with it, hell even the aide who was sent to jail was pardoned, so yeah Im not surprised by anything republicans do, and if Mccain does get elected Im moving out of this country.
I would only advise that you would likely be better off writing since I hear McCain doesn't use computers.
Must be true, since the little speech mentiond Dungeons & Dragons and not World of Warcraft.
Actually, I think it's more that you're choosing the person that's going to choose the person that's going to appoint the people that will run the country. It's that whole electoral college thing and then the fact that the President doesn't really run anything, he just appoints the real movers and shakers.
True enough. After all, without all those movers and shakers, the President's head would likely explode from sheer stress. God knows I definitely would not want that job.
Considering all of that, I think any comment he makes that disparages a portion of the country that he doesn't even have the foggiest clue about signals his care and concern for the people of this great nation. He chose to make comments about D&D players when he was speaking to a group of fundie neo-cons. Considering his willingness to insult one group when speaking to another, what will he do when he gets into office? I'm not sure Obama is any different, but then again he didn't make a comment that prompted multiple threads on this forum.
I hope you're not referring to me as a neo-con. You're probably not, but I'm not 100% sure. To me, if the government stays out of, well, everything, I'm good with it. Pretty much everything they do goes wrong, so if the gov't stays out of my life, I'm happy. ;)
Also, Obama IS no different. Let's remember that a McCain aide jabbed D&D players, but Michelle Obama has made plenty of negative comments about Americans herself (and you know what, I like being a cynic). Some users have said that since it's someone associated with McCain who made those comments, McCain has to take responsibility for it. That's true, but Obama also has to take responsibility for his wife's comments as well, and I've heard no such thing (though I could be wrong). Politics is a doubled-edged sword, and I have to swing it towards both of their heads.
However, it does go to show, politicians don't care about us. They only care about our vote. It's times like this where a direct democracy would be nice. Or at least, apply the idea of tribal lawyers from Krippendorf's Tribe, but use it on politicians instead. :D
In addition we should string up Dick Chenney along side him, why the man leaked the name of an undercover CIA agent to the press soley for political reasons during a time of war and got away with it, hell even the aide who was sent to jail was pardoned, so yeah Im not surprised by anything republicans do, and if Mccain does get elected Im moving out of this country.
That is the definition of treason. It's a shame the courts can't haul Libby back in after being pardoned, but I'll settle for them prosecuting his former boss to the full extent of the law.
I hope you're not referring to me as a neo-con. You're probably not, but I'm not 100% sure. To me, if the government stays out of, well, everything, I'm good with it. Pretty much everything they do goes wrong, so if the gov't stays out of my life, I'm happy. ;)
By Neo-con I'm referring to the Fundamentalist Christians that assume the only way America can be great is if they jam their religious doctrine down our throats and make us all live under the laws their ministers say are right and just. Although I do love the irony that fundamenalist extremists in the middle east are our enemy but fundamentalist extremists here are perfectly fine.
Well, I don't live in my mother's basement but I am a proud Liberal. I'm trying to get my group together for a marathon session of DnD this weekend. That's about how much I think about John McCain's comment. In other words not at all. In fact, I think DnD gamers would draw too much attention to themselves coming across as being hypersensitive geeks if we made a big hurray about this. I mean other hobby subcultures and even mainstream cultures get jabs thrown at them all the time (jocks for example are often thought of as stupid despite the fact that there are many athletes with well above average intelligence). I say rolling the dice and having fun is the best revenge there is regarding this statement.
Peace,
Fallstorm
Oh my ever frikkin' GOD!!!! The world's comin' to an end! I actually agree with a liberal!:D
Fallstorm- I had the same thoughts.
Seems kind of limiting and knee-jerk to me.
*****
Even though I am an Obama supporter, I just can't see him behind the GM screen, and he frankly doesn't strike me as a gamer. McCain on the other hand, looks like he would be a fun guy to game with. But this isn't a could reason to vote for someone.
Why do people box themselves into being "Republican" or "Democrat"?
Seems kind of limiting and knee-jerk to me.
*****
"Republican" and "Democrat" is just the name of a political party we can be affiliated with. It's not a philosophy or a box. Describing myself as a Republican is no different than saying I drive a Ford. "Conservatism" and "Liberalism" are closer to what you're thinking of as people boxing themselves in. Most of my personal beliefs about society and politics land me in the Conservative field, so what the heck? What's in a name, anyway? I admit to some liberal beliefs, but they're minor at best (and my friends say it's just an effect of the Tylenol...
) Therefore, I consider myself a Conservative.Labels, they're everywhere!
They have already retracted it... and with humor.
The apology was for the first statement, then they made the second. http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/13128.html
Not an apology in my book.
I've made a "Pro-Obama Dungeons and Dragons Crowd" group on facebook, and there is another group on barackobama.com
http://www.new.facebook.com/group.php?gid=24984397653&ref=mf
http://my.barackobama.com/page/group/Pro-ObamaDungeonsandDragonsCrowd
The facebook intro reads:
Play D&D? Voting for Obama? John McCain fears you! Twice his campaign has complained of the "Pro-Obama Dungeons and Dragons Crowd" and how we criticize McCain from "the comfort of their mother's basement." Let McCain fear us and our d12s! He will keep us in the Iraq campaign for another d100 years! Obama is a 20th level paladin who is going to smite some serious evil this January. Roll iniative America!
I would like to do a fund raiser. Someone made a pretty boring t-shirt. What I'd like to see is this:
A picture of John McCain behind a DM screen (with a table that says "Years in Iraq- roll d100" ) and a legend that says "John McCain is NOT my DM" then a smaller "Pro-Obama Dungeons and Dragons Crowd" below it or on the reverse side.
A picture of an elf, dwarf, halfling, human, and half-orc with "We are ONE people" then a smaller "Pro-Obama Dungeons and Dragons Crowd" below it or on the reverse side.
A picture of Obama in D&D garb (wizard?) with "It's time for a President who didn't use INT as a dump stat" then a smaller "Pro-Obama Dungeons and Dragons Crowd" below it or on the reverse side.
Can anybody run with these ideas? We could sell shirts on cafepress and give the proceeds to the Obama campaign.
Being a Republican and a gamer, I didn't really give two craps what McCain said. The fact is, if you're voting for Obama and are a gamer, then you ARE part of the "pro-Obama D&D group", just as I am, more or less, part of the "pro-McCain D&D group". That shouldn't say I like McCain, though. I actually can't stand either one, but I'm with McCain because I don't like the idea of Obama raising taxes for self-employed Americans, such as my dad. I also didn't like learning that the Senate thinks someone making 38K$ is considered rich, so you can see why I don't like either one.
If Obama said it, I wouldn't have cared either. It's just another ignorant statement from a politician. After all, let's not forget the Democrats' Night Trap/violent game crusade back in the 90's. All politicians are ignorant. It's an unfortunate, cynical outlook, but that's the way it is. Pick the lesser of the evils; such is our fate.
In the end, if a comment like that is going to determine your vote for who will run the USA, then you need to re-prioritize.
Where'd you hear that Obama wants to raise taxes?
I mean, I'm sure he has some ideas of raising taxes in little ways, as McCain does, as well as ideas of lowering them in some ways, as McCain does.
But if you're talking about income taxes-- Obama only wants to raise the tax cap over $100k from what I understand. Right now anyone who makes over $100k a year is only taxed on that $100k. Obama wants the rich, those who make over $100k+ a year, to pay taxes on their income just like someone like me, who makes well under that amount, and just like someone like your dad, who also makes pretty well under that amount.
Anyway, this is really off-topic. Maybe I should just completely drop it.
"Republican" and "Democrat" is just the name of a political party we can be affiliated with. It's not a philosophy or a box. Describing myself as a Republican is no different than saying I drive a Ford. "Conservatism" and "Liberalism" are closer to what you're thinking of as people boxing themselves in. Most of my personal beliefs about society and politics land me in the Conservative field, so what the heck? What's in a name, anyway? I admit to some liberal beliefs, but they're minor at best (and my friends say it's just an effect of the Tylenol...
Labels, they're everywhere!
And not always the same, too. Liberal, for example, means a very different thing in the US and in Continental Europe. A conservative Englishman and a conservative Pole may have very different ideas as well.
By Neo-con I'm referring to the Fundamentalist Christians that assume the only way America can be great is if they jam their religious doctrine down our throats and make us all live under the laws their ministers say are right and just. Although I do love the irony that fundamenalist extremists in the middle east are our enemy but fundamentalist extremists here are perfectly fine.
We have our own Taliban here in the US, and they have alot of money and political power, unfortunately. Indoctrination is a powerful toxin to kill reason.
Play D&D? Voting for Obama? John McCain fears you! Twice his campaign has complained of the "Pro-Obama Dungeons and Dragons Crowd" and how we criticize McCain from "the comfort of their mother's basement." Let McCain fear us and our d12s! He will keep us in the Iraq campaign for another d100 years! Obama is a 20th level paladin who is going to smite some serious evil this January. Roll iniative America!
I would like to do a fund raiser. Someone made a pretty boring t-shirt. What I'd like to see is this:
A picture of John McCain behind a DM screen (with a table that says "Years in Iraq- roll d100" ) and a legend that says "John McCain is NOT my DM" then a smaller "Pro-Obama Dungeons and Dragons Crowd" below it or on the reverse side.
A picture of an elf, dwarf, halfling, human, and half-orc with "We are ONE people" then a smaller "Pro-Obama Dungeons and Dragons Crowd" below it or on the reverse side.
A picture of Obama in D&D garb (wizard?) with "It's time for a President who didn't use INT as a dump stat" then a smaller "Pro-Obama Dungeons and Dragons Crowd" below it or on the reverse side.
Can anybody run with these ideas? We could sell shirts on cafepress and give the proceeds to the Obama campaign.
I'd run the other way. At least McCain actually has XPs. Obama's barely a Level 1 politician, nation-wise. (Strom Thurmond had achieved epic levels, IMO.) I'd sooner trust a pack of goblins in the Oval Office with a pack of kobolds as their collective VP. Hmm, with any luck, they'd set a lethal trap in the Capitol Building and slay Darth Pelosi for us. Can we do a write-in for Splug and Irontooth?
Hey! There's a plan! All of us Yanks who can vote, let's write in our favorite D&D NPCs! SPLUG FOR PRESIDENT!
I'd run the other way. At least McCain actually has XPs. Obama's barely a Level 1 politician, nation-wise. (Strom Thurmond had achieved epic levels, IMO.) I'd sooner trust a pack of goblins in the Oval Office with a pack of kobolds as their collective VP. Hmm, with any luck, they'd set a lethal trap in the Capitol Building and slay Darth Pelosi for us. Can we do a write-in for Splug and Irontooth?
Hey! There's a plan! All of us Yanks who can vote, let's write in our favorite D&D NPCs! SPLUG FOR PRESIDENT!
The name of this particular thread is "McCain vs. D&D let's do something about it!!!!!" There is another thread to discuss and debate this topic. If you wish to support another candidate, feel free to start another thread. I am answering the wishes of the OP and remain on topic. You have every opportunity to find audience for this debate elsewhere, please do so.
I'd sooner trust a pack of goblins in the Oval Office with a pack of kobolds as their collective VP.
Pardon me? And what makes you so certain I would do a bad job of it, eh? If the trained monkey that currently occupies the office can do it, I certainly could.
Speciesist.
We have our own Taliban here in the US, and they have alot of money and political power, unfortunately. Indoctrination is a powerful toxin to kill reason.
??
??
I speak of the fundamentalist Christians seeking to turn US into a theocracy, K_D.
I just want to be clear on this.
The name of this particular thread is "McCain vs. D&D let's do something about it!!!!!" There is another thread to discuss and debate this topic. If you wish to support another candidate, feel free to start another thread. I am answering the wishes of the OP and remain on topic. You have every opportunity to find audience for this debate elsewhere, please do so.
Hey, he asked if anyone would run with it. I answered. I've seen OT posts on this thread, why peg this one?
I speak of the fundamentalist Christians seeking to turn US into a theocracy, K_D.
Not all fundamentalist Christians want a "theocracy". I personally just want sanity and honesty and smaller government.
Also, here's the big difference: US Christians post blogposts, maybe have protests.
Taliban makes poor people blow themselves up.
Slight difference. It's hard to spot, I know.
So.. the basic plan about this staffer's original comment (for which McCain has already apologized for in good humor) is to effectively prove the original comment right?
I just want to be clear on this.
That's kind of my reaction.
This all seems very much like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Not all fundamentalist Christians want a "theocracy". I personally just want sanity and honesty and smaller government.
Also, here's the big difference: US Christians post blogposts, maybe have protests.
Taliban makes poor people blow themselves up.
Slight difference. It's hard to spot, I know.
There have been more suicide bombers of the Islamic persuasion, to be sure, but people in this country have died due to fundamentalist insanity -- abortion clinic doctors come to mind. If certain people had their way, there would be alot more killing done by so-called Christians in this country. I hope they never get their way.
Not all fundamentalist Christians want a "theocracy".
There are enough that do want a theocracy that it makes people wonder about the rest. I have friends that like to point out that this is a Christian nation in their opinion. It's kind of funny that I'm more Christian than they are, but that's another story, neh?
There have been more suicide bombers of the Islamic persuasion, to be sure, but people in this country have died due to fundamentalist insanity -- abortion clinic doctors come to mind. If certain people had their way, there would be alot more killing done by so-called Christians in this country. I hope they never get their way.
Christian terrorists do exist, and are a problem for sure. But the volume of terrorism commited by muslim extremist simply dwarfs their numbers. I don't pretend to know why this is the case. Though. I doubt it has anything to do with Islam itself, and more to do with the state of the Muslim world and the ideas that started to be embraced by many following the 1960s (in that region). Particularly the writings of Sayyid Qutb.
By Neo-con I'm referring to the Fundamentalist Christians that assume the only way America can be great is if they jam their religious doctrine down our throats and make us all live under the laws their ministers say are right and just. Although I do love the irony that fundamenalist extremists in the middle east are our enemy but fundamentalist extremists here are perfectly fine.
Ah, yes, those folks. People who will relentlessly thump Bibles, claim to be holier than thou, and say what is right and wrong in the world, yet forget that God told us "we judge not, lest we be judged." Just a bunch of Pharisees, those extremists. I don't listen to them.
Where'd you hear that Obama wants to raise taxes?
I mean, I'm sure he has some ideas of raising taxes in little ways, as McCain does, as well as ideas of lowering them in some ways, as McCain does.
But if you're talking about income taxes-- Obama only wants to raise the tax cap over $100k from what I understand. Right now anyone who makes over $100k a year is only taxed on that $100k. Obama wants the rich, those who make over $100k+ a year, to pay taxes on their income just like someone like me, who makes well under that amount, and just like someone like your dad, who also makes pretty well under that amount.
I was checking out Headline News a months back, and they did a report on possible tax hikes for the new President. During that report, I heard an analyst say that if Obama was elected, he'd knock up the tax for self-empoyed Americans from 38% to 50%. Needless to say, my dad's mind was pretty much made up. Add on Obama's indecisiveness (saying we should talk to Iran during the 1st Dem debate, now saying Iran is a threat), and that wound up being the nail in the coffin.
It's actually kind of ironic since, up until two or three months ago, I was seriously considering voting for Obama. To me, McCain comes off like a total waffle (and still is). But then I started listening to Michelle's comments, and reading all his own comments, and he came off as even worse. At this point in time, Obama is too naive to be President. A shame, too, because despite his faults, he does have potential, but not right now.
Anyway, this is really off-topic. Maybe I should just completely drop it.
Well, this IS the Off-Topic Tavern. ;)
Well, if you are an Obama fan, then it's nothing to you. I wonder how McCain-oriented D&D afficionados feel about this
I feel like tarring and feathering the idiot in McCain's campaign staff that made the remark. Mind you, I favor corporal as well as cruel & unusual punishment ... over simply terminating his duty.
There have been more suicide bombers of the Islamic persuasion, to be sure, but people in this country have died due to fundamentalist insanity -- abortion clinic doctors come to mind. If certain people had their way, there would be alot more killing done by so-called Christians in this country. I hope they never get their way.
I had a hard time separating Christians who put their money where their mouths are from those who just pay lip service to their scriptures and then run around attempting to oppress others and smiling savagely when some doctor gets murdered by one of the "faithful"*. I didn't feel right calling these people Christians, so I started calling them "hypochristians"
*On the less extreme side are the ones with religious bumper stickers plastered all over their vehicles, preaching love and brotherhood, who drive like maniacs, cut you off in traffic, don't use their signal lights and use some very unholy language when you don't psychically know that they want over. Yeah, what would Jesus think? I'm not Christian, but I do like to let them fire off the four-letter words and then hit them with a psalm. "Let the words of our mouths and the meditations of our hearts always be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my Strength and my Redeemer." Sometimes it shuts them up, but I hope it at least gets them thinking. If anyone knows what psalm that is, could you let me know?
I didn't feel right calling these people Christians, so I started calling them "hypochristians"
"Pharasees" is actually a very appropriate and accurate word for them. Read the Gospels (Matthew , Mark, Luke, and John) for a lot of reasons why the term is so incredibly accurate.
I had a hard time separating Christians who put their money where their mouths are from those who just pay lip service to their scriptures and then run around attempting to oppress others and smiling savagely when some doctor gets murdered by one of the "faithful"*. I didn't feel right calling these people Christians, so I started calling them "hypochristians"
*On the less extreme side are the ones with religious bumper stickers plastered all over their vehicles, preaching love and brotherhood, who drive like maniacs, cut you off in traffic, don't use their signal lights and use some very unholy language when you don't psychically know that they want over. Yeah, what would Jesus think? I'm not Christian, but I do like to let them fire off the four-letter words and then hit them with a psalm. "Let the words of our mouths and the meditations of our hearts always be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my Strength and my Redeemer." Sometimes it shuts them up, but I hope it at least gets them thinking. If anyone knows what psalm that is, could you let me know?
Hypocrisy exists everywhere.
Ah, yes, those folks. People who will relentlessly thump Bibles, claim to be holier than thou, and say what is right and wrong in the world, yet forget that God told us "we judge not, lest we be judged." Just a bunch of Pharisees, those extremists. I don't listen to them.
You know, I get a bit tired of this being thrown back in my face, out of context. Reading the passage, it's directed at those who ignore their own faults to point out the specific faults of individuals. This is different from saying "this is wrong". Saying "you're a horrible, horrible person" is judging; saying "doing X activity is wrong" is not. A big step is saying "and I've often messed up myself. Let's work together and help each other do better and get closer to God." After all, the passage mentions getting rid of "the log in your own eye before pointing out the speck in another's". Of course, as it was spoken to the Pharisees, it was especially poignant.
Pointing out the fact that telling people not to judge is itself telling people what to do might be helpful as well, yes? And looking at the fact that Jesus often condemned actions and behavior. How many times did he call people out on sin, and tell them "go and sin no more"?
And looking at the fact that Jesus often condemned actions and behavior. How many times did he call people out on sin, and tell them "go and sin no more"?
I believe he also said "hate the sin, love the sinner" but I'm sure that was just a mistranslation, it probably meant "treat the sinner like human excrement for what you think this book says".
And I believe "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and render unto God that which is God's" would include obeying the law of the land, even though it may not be as harsh as the laws of God.
And while we're discussing the laws of God, I don't recall anywhere in the New Testament or old that says you lot are free from the dietary laws in Levitticus. So that ham sandwich you had for lunch last week, yeah, that's gonna land you in a fairly warm afterlife. Good thing though, all those sinners that you like to preach to will be there too. Well that is if you were right in pronouncing judgement on their sin. I think "honor thy father and mother" might apply to the almighty father, and since you took his schtick, he might just make sure you get a taste of the old-timey religion.
I believe he also said "hate the sin, love the sinner" but I'm sure that was just a mistranslation, it probably meant "treat the sinner like human excrement for what you think this book says".
And I believe "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and render unto God that which is God's" would include obeying the law of the land, even though it may not be as harsh as the laws of God.
And while we're discussing the laws of God, I don't recall anywhere in the New Testament or old that says you lot are free from the dietary laws in Levitticus. So that ham sandwich you had for lunch last week, yeah, that's gonna land you in a fairly warm afterlife. Good thing though, all those sinners that you like to preach to will be there too. Well that is if you were right in pronouncing judgement on their sin. I think "honor thy father and mother" might apply to the almighty father, and since you took his schtick, he might just make sure you get a taste of the old-timey religion.
Part of "hating the sin" is identifying what sin is. That's part of my point.
Dietary laws: Acts 10. 1 Corinthians 10. Many times the Paul wrote. Much of the point of the NT is that concerns over specific dietary items, clothing, haircuts, and such weren't as important for the Gentiles (that's non-Hebrew people) as were the core moral values. I daresay the 10 commandments can pretty much stand the test of time throughout the Scripture. The Sabbath commandment has been debated the most (internally to the church), but I think a consensus of "it still holds meaning" could be reached.
It seems like what you actually want is for us to not say that we believe a certain action or actions is wrong. I can't agree with that. If instead you're calling for us to get off high horses and be less "judgemental", ignoring our blatant faults while pointing out others, the sure, I can roll with that. Of course, that message is being circulated internally as well.
I daresay the 10 commandments can pretty much stand the test of time throughout the Scripture.
Yeah, funny that. It made it into the holy books of three major world religions.
I honestly don't think I had a point, I was just seeing how far I could go spouting off quotes and using them to mean what I wanted them to. It seems to be a bit of a hobby among alot of the Christians that I see on television and in the news.
Additionally, I don't see how Paul's letters to the Corinthians can be taken as Gospel. They were written after the death of Jesus by an Apostle that never even knew the Messiah. Taking that into account, what gave Saul of Tarsus (the apostle Paul) the right to circumvent God's law? Even Jesus didn't presume to change God's law.
Now answer me this. How is it a non-christian* has a better understanding of the Christian bible that easily three-quarters of the Christian world? Could it be that I've studied it so that I could have a better understanding of you through understanding of your religion?
* no, not Atheist, simply not Christian.
Yeah, funny that. It made it into the holy books of three major world religions.
I honestly don't think I had a point, I was just seeing how far I could go spouting off quotes and using them to mean what I wanted them to. It seems to be a bit of a hobby among alot of the Christians that I see on television and in the news.
Additionally, I don't see how Paul's letters to the Corinthians can be taken as Gospel. They were written after the death of Jesus by an Apostle that never even knew the Messiah. Taking that into account, what gave Saul of Tarsus (the apostle Paul) the right to circumvent God's law? Even Jesus didn't presume to change God's law.
Now answer me this. How is it a non-christian* has a better understanding of the Christian bible that easily three-quarters of the Christian world? Could it be that I've studied it so that I could have a better understanding of you through understanding of your religion?
* no, not Atheist, simply not Christian.
Well, they're not "Gospel", that's only the 4 Gospels, but the are "gospel". Paul did know Him, albeit not as much as the others. He met Him on the road to Damascus. And he had first-hand access to the 11 Disciples who did directly know Him; in addition, the Acts section is about Peter. Further, that law was to the Jews, not the Gentiles; he simply carried the message of salvation (per Jesus: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man comes to the Father but through me." As well as when he said that they preached "Christ, and Him crucified"). Paul repeatedly warned that if they adhered too closely to the Jewish laws (which was a movement of the time that was rebuked; that Gentiles had to precisely obey the Hebrew laws to follow Jesus), they would be held to them. Instead, he urged two things: believe in Jesus, and work to live a life worthy of Him. That such a life would typically have a similar major moral structure to the precise Hebrew laws is no coincidence; much of that law is what could be called a "good idea", insofar as things we're encouraged not to participate in. In addition, Paul often listed behaviours God found abhorrent (lying, wrath, fornication, etc.).
Jesus did indeed say that He came "not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it". Of course, what that means, precisely, can still be debated. I don't think He came to tell the Jews to all stop eating kosher and such. I can take from His encounter with the adulterous woman that He came to abolish many/most/all of the Hebrew penalties for sin; first rebuking them for the stoning, then telling the woman He forgave her, and to "go and sin no more". That's a consistent message he has; less focus on the punishment from us, more on the forgiving, but no loss of what is, morally, right and wrong.
Context-free verse-pulling is frighteningly common, but is also incorrect. Good Biblical scholars and teachers and preachers agree (keyword: good).
As for your knowledge...*Shrugs* how many people vote and don't know the Constitution? Yeah, it's sad; both that so many of my brothers and sisters know the Bible so poorly (goodness knows I always need to be improving my knowledge), but that you've studied it so...coldly. To walk away from that book with merely factual knowledge... Such is today, I suppose.
I don't bother trying to re-educate those saying stupid things about D&D, I just ignore them as if they hadn't spoken.
Now answer me this. How is it a non-christian* has a better understanding of the Christian bible that easily three-quarters of the Christian world? Could it be that I've studied it so that I could have a better understanding of you through understanding of your religion?
Funny that, people who have studied religious scriptures understanding them - or at least knowing the text. I'd be damned... figuratively speaking, at least.
The problem is that ANY religion can be interpreted in 1001 ways, it's almost like a precondition to be taken seriously. It's almost like statistics - if you want to support a point, you can probably find the part that supports it if you look deep enough. You want to support left-wing policies with religion? No problem, giving one shirt, camel in needles' eye, etc etc. Want to support right-wing policies? Sure, all the parables about people not doing their share, or heck, just look at how the big churches in the US are doing it. Conservative vs progressive is even easier. I have not read the Torah or Quran apart from a few verses (and the OT of course) but it's probably no different.
As for McCain, I didn't have a very high opinion of him to begin with, so the only thing that I am disappointed by is that he has serious chances to be the next US president after all the stuff he and his campaign have done. But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he is a decent guy and will make a good president.
Right.
You know, I get a bit tired of this being thrown back in my face, out of context. Reading the passage, it's directed at those who ignore their own faults to point out the specific faults of individuals. This is different from saying "this is wrong". Saying "you're a horrible, horrible person" is judging; saying "doing X activity is wrong" is not. A big step is saying "and I've often messed up myself. Let's work together and help each other do better and get closer to God." After all, the passage mentions getting rid of "the log in your own eye before pointing out the speck in another's". Of course, as it was spoken to the Pharisees, it was especially poignant.
Pointing out the fact that telling people not to judge is itself telling people what to do might be helpful as well, yes? And looking at the fact that Jesus often condemned actions and behavior. How many times did he call people out on sin, and tell them "go and sin no more"?
Actually, you pretty much nailed the kind of people I was addressing. Now, I will admit, though I was born and raised Catholic, I am not overtly religious, but I would like to think I have some understanding of what is right and wrong. My comment was pointed towards religious extremists, be they Christian, Islam, Buddhist, Shinto, whatever, who will list off things they percieve to be wrong, yet will not admit to their own transgressions. In my eyes, I don't think I'm that great a person, but I try to be. I have done my fair share of sins, but I hope I will be forgiven for them. Maybe, maybe not. That is something that gets my goat when I hear extremists of any religion. They name off things, such as race, religion, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, etc. that have nothing to do with what makes a good person, and I hate that. Goodness is what you do, not how you were born, and in my eyes, if they cannot even see inside themselves, how can they see inside others?
Now, don't take this as a question that needs answering. It's just an opinion I needed to get out there, but I will say your post is somewhat in tune with my own beliefs (sorry for the lack of clarity). It's also a question that could applied to politics: Until a party can exorcise its own demons (corruption, bribery, special interests, etc.), how can one party consider itself truly better than the other?
As for McCain, I didn't have a very high opinion of him to begin with, so the only thing that I am disappointed by is that he has serious chances to be the next US president after all the stuff he and his campaign have done. But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he is a decent guy and will make a good president.
Negativity more or less comes natural to us. That's why McCain's ads focus more on that. It's pretty much been likr that for a long time. We remember more what's done wrong than what's done right. The same could be said for a hospital: You're expected to do everything right, but if you make a mistake, it damages your rep forever, no matter how much you do right.
Negativity lingers.
My comment was pointed towards religious extremists, be they Christian, Islam, Buddhist, Shinto, whatever, who will list off things they percieve to be wrong, yet will not admit to their own transgressions.
Even in the hearts of good men, hypocrisy lingers. "Do as I say, not as I do", will always be the mantra of those who would lead you, spoken or not.
Here's what we can do...
Calm. Down.
Exactly.
The remarks can only help the game. The WOTC Pres is secretly happy that he has some publicity right around 4Es launch and it did not cost him a thing.:D
I wish there was some way we could show our displeasure with Mr. McCain. If only there was an election coming up that he was running in, oh wait....
Well played, sir. :D