Reasons GMO's are bad...
Personally, I would prefer a technology with as many benefits as genetic modification to be used for wholesale advancement of the human race, not the profit of a few corporations.
Story of our civilization.
Who are these people who write this stuff?
People that do research and look past the Big Six™ mainstream media hype...
First, InB4Lock. Second, the technology is sound and can be utilized in completely safe fashions, regardless of the practices of the corporations using it (I myself detest many of the policies of the agri-giants). Personally, I would prefer a technology with as many benefits as genetic modification to be used for wholesale advancement of the human race, not the profit of a few corporations.
Safe? They know how it works? really you need to do some research. Much of what they do is pretty random. One method they literally shoot the DNA into plant cells, make them replicate and then if it produces a particular enzyme they call it done, without knowing how the DNA was affected whethere there are side effects or really without doing any real DNA testing. Another method they use viruses and bacteria to change out the plants DNA again, they verifiy this by checking for an enzyme, without any other testing. Its fast efficient, and profitable, but safe? not on your life and they really don't know the effects of what they are doing any more than a non-mechanic does when they replace a part in their car, sure it could work, but as often as not, they could end up causing more problems than they fix because they don't understand what that part is for or how it works within the system...
Is this supposed to be a joke? Do people actually take that site seriously?
There are people who take Vigilant Citizen seriously...
Yeah, sorry for that comparison, that was uncalled for.
Who are these people who write this stuff?
People that do research and look past the Big Six™ mainstream media hype...
I do not live in the states. So I am not exposed to the big six and they do not invent stuff like the people on the website you link do.
The people on the website I link don't invent anything, you'll notice they link to studies and experts and other important facts.
It just doesn't hit the major media because they are owned by the corporations they would be reporting on or they are funded by them through advertising...
First, InB4Lock. Second, the technology is sound and can be utilized in completely safe fashions, regardless of the practices of the corporations using it (I myself detest many of the policies of the agri-giants). Personally, I would prefer a technology with as many benefits as genetic modification to be used for wholesale advancement of the human race, not the profit of a few corporations.
Safe? They know how it works? really you need to do some research. Much of what they do is pretty random. One method they literally shoot the DNA into plant cells, make them replicate and then if it produces a particular enzyme they call it done, without knowing how the DNA was affected whethere there are side effects or really without doing any real DNA testing. Another method they use viruses and bacteria to change out the plants DNA again, they verifiy this by checking for an enzyme, without any other testing. Its fast efficient, and profitable, but safe? not on your life and they really don't know the effects of what they are doing any more than a non-mechanic does when they replace a part in their car, sure it could work, but as often as not, they could end up causing more problems than they fix because they don't understand what that part is for or how it works within the system...
Where did I say that the methods are necessarily reliable by themselves? Sufficient testing is obviously necessary to verify effects and make sure that allergens and the like weren't transferred to the organism. As I said, I have plenty of issues with how the agri-giants are handling it. Insufficient testing on food crops is one of them.
First, InB4Lock. Second, the technology is sound and can be utilized in completely safe fashions, regardless of the practices of the corporations using it (I myself detest many of the policies of the agri-giants). Personally, I would prefer a technology with as many benefits as genetic modification to be used for wholesale advancement of the human race, not the profit of a few corporations.
Safe? They know how it works? really you need to do some research. Much of what they do is pretty random. One method they literally shoot the DNA into plant cells, make them replicate and then if it produces a particular enzyme they call it done, without knowing how the DNA was affected whethere there are side effects or really without doing any real DNA testing. Another method they use viruses and bacteria to change out the plants DNA again, they verifiy this by checking for an enzyme, without any other testing. Its fast efficient, and profitable, but safe? not on your life and they really don't know the effects of what they are doing any more than a non-mechanic does when they replace a part in their car, sure it could work, but as often as not, they could end up causing more problems than they fix because they don't understand what that part is for or how it works within the system...
Where did I say that the methods are necessarily reliable by themselves? Sufficient testing is obviously necessary to verify effects and make sure that allergens and the like weren't transferred to the organism. As I said, I have plenty of issues with how the agri-giants are handling it. Insufficient testing on food crops is one of them.
It wouldn't be properly safe until the GM companies are required to do a genetic comparison between the plant they are altering (the natural source) and the plant they altered (the result of their modifications) and be able to explain every single difference between the two and how they work in the scheme of the plant and the animals that eat the plant (humans, livestock). At that point it would be safe to utilize. While possible it is not likely...
It's going to be interesting to see what happens when one of these breaks down. When you not only control the devices but also each and every person in the world who knows how to fix it, and people rely on these things to have heating and light in their building...
Heh, I think I just figured out where the E-cat is going to be making its money.
I find it interesting that you want intensive research done for something that people have been eating for years and so far hasn't brought on the zombie apocalypse but are a great fan of people who intend to equip houses with a nuclear fusion generator that even the creators don't really know how it works, or if they do, they certainly aren't telling anyone how they work.
It's going to be interesting to see what happens when one of these breaks down. When you not only control the devices but also each and every person in the world who knows how to fix it, and people rely on these things to have heating and light in their building...
Heh, I think I just figured out where the E-cat is going to be making its money.
to Plu.I find it interesting that you want intensive research done for something that people have been eating for years and so far hasn't brought on the zombie apocalypse but are a great fan of people who intend to equip houses with a nuclear fusion generator that even the creators don't really know how it works, or if they do, they certainly aren't telling anyone how they work.
It's going to be interesting to see what happens when one of these breaks down. When you not only control the devices but also each and every person in the world who knows how to fix it, and people rely on these things to have heating and light in their building...
Heh, I think I just figured out where the E-cat is going to be making its money.
No I want research on both, but we can't get research on the E-CAT until some major countries allow Rossi to patent the device. I'm hoping for the second best thing, the break up of the power monopoly for a much smaller more efficient cheaper device. Afterwards they can figure out why it does it. Also the GM plants have brought about a kind of apocolypse third world countries are now dependent on our GM corn and other GM crops, which we can only sell because of Gov't subsidies. Allergies have gone way up since they were introduced. pesticide use has gone way up. All of the resulting problems have happened.
Personally I find it funny when you try to cross topics thinking your gonna 1-up me. That's impossible because I'm not in it for the argument. I'm in it for rational discussion using facts and getting information to people...
Personally I find it funny when you try to cross topics thinking your gonna 1-up me. That's impossible because I'm not in it for the argument. I'm in it for rational discussion using facts and getting information to people...
No I want research on both, but we can't get research on the E-CAT until some major countries allow Rossi to patent the device. I'm hoping for the second best thing, the break up of the power monopoly for a much smaller more efficient cheaper device. Afterwards they can figure out why it does it. Also the GM plants have brought about a kind of apocolypse third world countries are now dependent on our GM corn and other GM crops, which we can only sell because of Gov't subsidies. Allergies have gone way up since they were introduced. pesticide use has gone way up. All of the resulting problems have happened.
Actually no one is 100% sure as to why those number have ogne up:
One theory is that the Western diet has made people more susceptible to developing allergies and other illnesses.
Another theory is that children need to get exposed to common allergens, such as nuts and shellfish, from a much earlier age, to avoid developing allergies. Some doctors have been recommending waiting until 2 or 3, but Ferdman at Children's Hospital Los Angeles is a proponent of giving kids nuts very early.
We're too clean
Cleanliness could be to blame. The "hygiene hypothesis" proposes children aren't exposed to enough dirt, bacteria and other infectious agents early on, and their under-stimulated immune systems goes on the offense when exposed to benign stuff like food.
Global warming
The rise in carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere and warming global temperatures could also be contributing to the allergy increase.
We're too dirty
All the smog and other types of air pollutionmight also be making allergies worse, particularly asthma. However, while there is good evidence for the link between pollution and allergies in a test tube, it remains tough to prove in large populations of people, Eghrari-Sabet said.
Just more diagnoses
It's possible that the rising numbers are simply due to more people being diagnosed with allergies, Eghrari-Sabet said. "Whereas before people were told you just have dry skin or a rash, now they're told, you have eczema," she said.
topics.myfoxboston.com/m/41121471/rise-i...
Safe? They know how it works? really you need to do some research. Much of what they do is pretty random. One method they literally shoot the DNA into plant cells, make them replicate and then if it produces a particular enzyme they call it done, without knowing how the DNA was affected whethere there are side effects or really without doing any real DNA testing. Another method they use viruses and bacteria to change out the plants DNA again, they verifiy this by checking for an enzyme, without any other testing. Its fast efficient, and profitable, but safe? not on your life and they really don't know the effects of what they are doing any more than a non-mechanic does when they replace a part in their car, sure it could work, but as often as not, they could end up causing more problems than they fix because they don't understand what that part is for or how it works within the system...
Ok, this is getting silly. So now you say things aren't safe if those that do them don't know how they work? That e-cat thing you're always hypin' falls squarely into this category - as admitted by the inventor, no less - and yet you're cool with it. Which is it? Do we have to know how something works for it to be safe or not?
EDIT: Just saw Plu's post. He beat me to it. Heh.
Safe? They know how it works? really you need to do some research. Much of what they do is pretty random. One method they literally shoot the DNA into plant cells, make them replicate and then if it produces a particular enzyme they call it done, without knowing how the DNA was affected whethere there are side effects or really without doing any real DNA testing. Another method they use viruses and bacteria to change out the plants DNA again, they verifiy this by checking for an enzyme, without any other testing. Its fast efficient, and profitable, but safe? not on your life and they really don't know the effects of what they are doing any more than a non-mechanic does when they replace a part in their car, sure it could work, but as often as not, they could end up causing more problems than they fix because they don't understand what that part is for or how it works within the system...
Ok, this is getting silly. So now you say things aren't safe if those that do them don't know how they work? That e-cat thing you're always hypin' falls squarely into this category - as admitted by the inventor, no less - and yet you're cool with it. Which is it? Do we have to know how something works for it to be safe or not?
EDIT: Just saw Plu's post. He beat me to it. Heh.
The difference is that one your eating and is created with non-replicating viruses (GM food) which have a potential to directly affect your DNA or to affect your health on a daily basis, and the other the E-CAT which might what? blow up and cause some damage or maybe leak a chemical that could cause sickness? I don't know but DNA alterations seem like a risk I don't want to take and chemical leakage can be contained by isolating the system and only outputting power, by putting the thing an acre from your house in a substation surrounded by concrete and lead walls. One can easily be contained while the other is going directly into your body. I judge issues on a one by one basis. Nice non-sequitor though...
As to the GM food thing. There are a lot of health problems arising which can't be tied directly to GM foods, but there are direct links to GM foods and allergy increases. Not to mention since they use antibiotic enzymes to test for successful genetic modification that alone says anyone that is allergic to antibiotics is going to have allergies to GM foods.
As far as who the different countries media groups are beholden to: Which would you rather they be beholden to? A government that gets voted in and out at regular intervals and who is responsible to the people or a group of companies that only cares about profit and increased market share? I know I'm asking you to choose the least of two pretty bad evils, but really what other choice do we have (other than the internet alternative media which reaches more people than most mainstream media does)?
Stupid coffee has skyrocketed in price. We need some GMO coffee beans. Avocados are double the price they were a year ago. Need to GMO up some cheaper avocados. Can we GMO up some dairy cows that pump out more milk to lower the cost of a gallon?
Actually they did that years ago. Its a growth hormone only legal in the U.S. called rBGH with similar controversies surrounding it... Gues what's in your milk because of it... go on guess...
Stupid coffee has skyrocketed in price. We need some GMO coffee beans. Avocados are double the price they were a year ago. Need to GMO up some cheaper avocados. Can we GMO up some dairy cows that pump out more milk to lower the cost of a gallon?
Actually they did that years ago. Its a growth hormone only legal in the U.S. called rBGH with similar controversies surrounding it... Gues what's in your milk because of it... go on guess...
whale ****
mmm mmm tasty whale ****
Stupid coffee has skyrocketed in price. We need some GMO coffee beans. Avocados are double the price they were a year ago. Need to GMO up some cheaper avocados. Can we GMO up some dairy cows that pump out more milk to lower the cost of a gallon?
Actually they did that years ago. Its a growth hormone only legal in the U.S. called rBGH with similar controversies surrounding it... Gues what's in your milk because of it... go on guess...
whale ****
mmm mmm tasty whale ****
Nothing that nasty... puss from infected cow udders as well as passing the rBGH along to you when you drink it, oh and don't forget whatever caused the infection in the first place, bacteria, virus whatever...
Nothing that nasty... puss from infected cow udders as well as passing the rBGH along to you when you drink it, oh and don't forget whatever caused the infection in the first place, bacteria, virus whatever...
nom nom, just had a yummy glass of infected cow udder puss with a swirl of rBGH, bacteria, and viruses with my slice of apple pie. An all-American meal. Good stuff that.
Pretty confident this cigarette I'm following it up with will cause the cancer quicker than my GMO food.
Nothing that nasty... puss from infected cow udders as well as passing the rBGH along to you when you drink it, oh and don't forget whatever caused the infection in the first place, bacteria, virus whatever...
Meh. That stuff has been in milk since humans started milking critters. Pasteurization kills most bacteria, and infected cows are milked less often than in the past. The US has laws about how much pus can be in milk, just like it has laws on how many dead roaches can be in your ketchup.
If you want to get technical, milk is actually produced from pus. Pus is dead white blood cells. The cow's udder filters ~10,000 quarts of blood daily, and uses dead white blood cells to manufacture the milk.
Nothing that nasty... puss from infected cow udders as well as passing the rBGH along to you when you drink it, oh and don't forget whatever caused the infection in the first place, bacteria, virus whatever...
nom nom, just had a yummy glass of infected cow udder puss with a swirl of rBGH, bacteria, and viruses with my slice of apple pie. An all-American meal. Good stuff that.
Pretty confident this cigarette I'm following it up with will cause the cancer quicker than my GMO food.
Pffft... real men smoke GMO cigarettes.
Reminds me of someone I knew who said that irradiating food would create super bacteria, because the surivors of the irradiation would build up a resistance to it. And I'm like, how do you build up a resistance to being zipped apart at the molecular level?
So American women drink this milk containing cow hormones... Does this mean your women have super gigantic lactating breasts?
No, it means they're all around gigantic ;)
The difference is that one your eating and is created with non-replicating viruses (GM food) which have a potential to directly affect your DNA or to affect your health on a daily basis, and the other the E-CAT which might what? blow up and cause some damage or maybe leak a chemical that could cause sickness?
You do realise that something that would unleash 1 megawatthour (which is more or less what the E-kat produces?) in the span of a few seconds means you unleash the kind of energy that about 1000kg (or 2000 pounds) of dynamite does when ignited?
1 kilowatthour is 3.6 megajoules. That means 1 megawatthour is 3.6 gigajoules. A ton of TNT is 4.184 gigajoules.
This is just some simple data from Wikipedia:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNT_equivalent
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilowatt_hour
I don't know about you, but only one of these two things could level the entire apartment building I live in.
Genetic engeneering for beginners
by qube
Introduction: cells and virusses
First we understand what a cell is. For simplicity sake, we can look at a cell as a small company.
- we have our main building (nucleus): a factory that contains all plans of all export products (DNA) and machines to make these plans.
- It has the ground the company owns (basically the cell itself, or cytoplasm). It's surrounded by a low fence without gate (cell membrane). On the ground, we find our main building, perhaps a small generator (if your cell does photosyntesys), the stuff we might need in the future, etc ...
- the plans of a company are encrypted, in one or more lists (chromosones). This list does not only contain the plans, but also additional info, so that a factory worker (enzyme), knows which part of the encrypted info he needs.
- If a company is doing very well, it will split itself in two: buy some adjacent land, make an other main building, split the resources, add some fence.
- One company is different from an other: a simple bacterie company might not even have walls on his main building; while a human company has walls, and never works directly with the company plans, but with copies (RNA)
This should give people a basic idea of what a cell is. Next up, a more fun part: virusses.
- Virusses are extremly simple & small things (some consist only of a few molecules!).
- A virus is like a kamikazi mailman:
- it destroys itself giving his letter to a company,
- that letter ends up in the main building, where the factory starts to create other kamikazi mailmen
- this new cost usually becomes fatal to the factory, going bancrupt.
- Dependant of the type of virus, the 'mail' can work on different ways.
- it could look like an order to make as much mailman parts as possible
- it could be an undercover clerck, continuesly issueing 'make mailman' orders
- it could look like an order to fix a fault in the core plans
Genetic engeneering
OK, isn't it like super cool how these virusses manipulate cells to do their bidding? Well, if they can do it, so can we
.What genetic engeneering is, is basically the same as a virus: play around with the plans of a factory. Usually it's to
- let a factory also make anti-terrorist weapons (a.k.a. protection against diseases, ...)
- Let them grow faster
The scientist looks for a plan that does this, and introduces it in the company. Or the scienties looks for an burglar that will destroy a certain plan.
Does that come with risks to the factory? I won't deny that. Especially if it's part the cell is part of a living organism, one needs to be careful what one chances.
GM to producing chemicals
Bacterias, low on the evolution scale, are very simple factories; most don't even have walls on their main buildings (prokaryotic cells). heck 1% of them doesn't even double check the source of plans (so no need to fake a signature).
This is were it gets fun. As they are kept in a lab, and aren't part of some bigger organism, we basically can mess with them as much as we want
An example: You need a cure for something (like stuff against leukemia or breast cancer)?
- Find a factory that creates these weapons, or give a factory a plan to create these weapons
- Send them a mail to produce as much weapons as possible
- send them resources, and pick up their export products.
- you now have weapons to fend of your enemies
GM to produce food
On of the biggest problems that GM plants have is not that they are toxic (as Pluisjen said, people have been eating for them for years and so far hasn't brought on the zombie apocalypse), but that they all get equal properties (like they grow quite well).
And equalizing could mean trouble: Suppose we mod everyone to have blue eyes, and suddenly there's a deadly virus/bactery/... that only infects(and kills) only people with blue eyes: this disease will spread much much faster, and will kill much more creatures.
Allergies have gone way up since they were introduced.
Is there proof of consequence? I found on wikipedia
to date no adverse health effects caused by products approved for sale have been documented, although two products failed initial safety testing and were discontinued, due to allergic reactions.
Worldwide, reports of allergies to all kinds of foods, particularly nuts, fish and shellfish, seem to be increasing, but it is not known if this reflects a genuine change in the risk of allergy, or an increased awareness of food allergies by the public
Also a fun fact: Genetic modification can also be used to remove allergens from foods, which may, for example, allow the production of soy products that would pose a smaller risk of food allergies than standard soybeans
As to the GM food thing. There are a lot of health problems arising which can't be tied directly to GM foods, but there are direct links to GM foods and allergy increases.
I note how the articly speaks with a of a lot of mights/coulds/... the difference between "there are direct links", and "there could be a direct link" ...
Funny thing, BTW: "[non commercialized] GM potatoes caused the immune system of rats to respond more slowly" ... so these potatoes help against allergies
Not to mention since they use antibiotic enzymes to test for successful genetic modification that alone says anyone that is allergic to antibiotics is going to have allergies to GM foods.
(bolding mine) cars get tested by ramming them into walls. yet people (usually) buy uncrashed cars.
Believe you me, I hope you don't eat the food(-residue) they used to test. antibiotics would be the least of your least concern.
Humans have been tinkering with the genetics of plants and animals for thousands of years. It's called selective breeding. We can just do it faster now. The people who are most fearful of these things are often the ones with limited to no understanding of the subject.
Reminds me of someone I knew who said that irradiating food would create super bacteria, because the surivors of the irradiation would build up a resistance to it. And I'm like, how do you build up a resistance to being zipped apart at the molecular level?
I think you need to do some more research. Selective breeding is way different than taking animal or insect genes and putting them into plants. Selective breeding is also a slow enough process that you can actually test tiny changes over longer periods of time and its completely limited to the best combinations of the existing traits that all plants involved have. For instance you can make corn larger by selective breeding, but after a time you will hit the trait maximum at which time the corn won't get any bigger because the DNA for it is just not there. Now say you take DNA out of a whale that makes the whale so big and through viral and bacterial means you put it into the corn. Now you can see the corn get much larger say the size of a SUV, that is easily testable. What you can't see is that the [imaginary toxic chemical produced by whales from here on out refered to as chem-X] chem-X from the whale is also produced in the plant. Its in small enough doeses that the standard rushed tests don't pick it up (if we are lucky enough to have the tests done at all), but when some corn loving consumers eat it every night they start to complain of medical problems and they get sick and die then what?
As I said before I would be 100% fine with it if they really did know what they are doing, but they don't understand even the basics of how the DNA does what it does. They are still at the stage where they are identifying what a gene does by trial and error rather than understanding the complex interaction of the DNA coding. It'd be like cavement trying to make a nuclear reactor by trial and error... not a pretty sight...
You do realise that something that would unleash 1 megawatthour (which is more or less what the E-kat produces?) in the span of a few seconds means you unleash the kind of energy that about 1000kg (or 2000 pounds) of dynamite does when ignited?
1 kilowatthour is 3.6 megajoules. That means 1 megawatthour is 3.6 gigajoules. A ton of TNT is 4.184 gigajoules.
This is just some simple data from Wikipedia:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNT_equivalent
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilowatt_hour
I don't know about you, but only one of these two things could level the entire apartment building I live in.
Yeah, I was thinkin' pretty much the same thing.
It's been a while since I've done biology, but I'dd like to take a stab at this (heck, it's a good way to brush up on things)
Genetic engeneering for beginners
by qube
Introduction: cells and virusses
First we understand what a cell is. For simplicity sake, we can look at a cell as a small company.
- we have our main building (nucleus): a factory that contains all plans of all export products (DNA) and machines to make these plans.
- It has the ground the company owns (basically the cell itself, or cytoplasm). It's surrounded by a low fence without gate (cell membrane). On the ground, we find our main building, perhaps a small generator (if your cell does photosyntesys), the stuff we might need in the future, etc ...
- the plans of a company are encrypted, in one or more lists (chromosones). This list does not only contain the plans, but also additional info, so that a factory worker (enzyme), knows which part of the encrypted info he needs.
- If a company is doing very well, it will split itself in two: buy some adjacent land, make an other main building, split the resources, add some fence.
- One company is different from an other: a simple bacterie company might not even have walls on his main building; while a human company has walls, and never works directly with the company plans, but with copies (RNA)
Note: viruses use RNA to infiltrate the cell...
This should give people a basic idea of what a cell is. Next up, a more fun part: virusses.
- Virusses are extremly simple & small things (some consist only of a few molecules!).
- A virus is like a kamikazi mailman:
- it destroys itself giving his letter to a company,
- that letter ends up in the main building, where the factory starts to create other kamikazi mailmen
- this new cost usually becomes fatal to the factory, going bancrupt.
- Dependant of the type of virus, the 'mail' can work on different ways.
- it could look like an order to make as much mailman parts as possible
- it could be an undercover clerck, continuesly issueing 'make mailman' orders
- it could look like an order to fix a fault in the core plans
Ok, oversimplified, but ok...
Genetic engeneering
OK, isn't it like super cool how these virusses manipulate cells to do their bidding? Well, if they can do it, so can we
What genetic engeneering is, is basically the same as a virus: play around with the plans of a factory. Usually it's to
- let a factory also make anti-terrorist weapons (a.k.a. protection against diseases, ...)
- Let them grow faster
The scientist looks for a plan that does this, and introduces it in the company. Or the scienties looks for an burglar that will destroy a certain plan.
Does that come with risks to the factory? I won't deny that. Especially if it's part the cell is part of a living organism, one needs to be careful what one chances.
Most of that is accurate, but you are leaving out one important thing. There are two kinds of viruses. The first which is why diseases caused by viruses are so easy to defeat are the kinds of viruses that have a double helix and therefore are less likely to mutate. Once you figure out how to defeat them they are as good as gone because they rarely change.
The second type don't have double helix and basically don't check themselves to see if they are replicating properly so you get genetic mutations literally all the time. The flu is one of these viruses. It changes so often that your immune system can't keep up and a new strain shows up every year...
For some unkown reason we use the second type of virus in our gentic manipulations...
GM to producing chemicals
Bacterias, low on the evolution scale, are very simple factories; most don't even have walls on their main buildings (prokaryotic cells). heck 1% of them doesn't even double check the source of plans (so no need to fake a signature).
This is were it gets fun. As they are kept in a lab, and aren't part of some bigger organism, we basically can mess with them as much as we want
An example: You need a cure for something (like stuff against leukemia or breast cancer)?
- Find a factory that creates these weapons, or give a factory a plan to create these weapons
- Send them a mail to produce as much weapons as possible
- send them resources, and pick up their export products.
- you now have weapons to fend of your enemies
The problem is not in how they work, its in what we do with them. Without sequencing each virus that we create, we don't know exactly what we are getting in each genetic modification. We might get what we wanted plus some unwanted stuff that we don't know is in there. This is the underlying problem. Its like if you have a jar of peanuts mixed with cashews right. completely mixed up evenly throughout. Now imagine you want to seperate them, but the only way you can do this is by pouring them into different containers. So you can either do it the hard way by literally pouring one at a time into two different containers or you can pour a handful into many containers and keep pouring backand forth until you have sifted out all of the nuts. This is what the GM companies are doing, except its not just 2 things they are trying to separate, its thousands and then they are trying to recombine them in the way they want and they are trying to do it as fast as humanly possible. Its a wonder all their nuts haven't fallen on the floor already...
GM to produce food
On of the biggest problems that GM plants have is not that they are toxic (as Pluisjen said, people have been eating for them for years and so far hasn't brought on the zombie apocalypse), but that they all get equal properties (like they grow quite well).
And equalizing could mean trouble: Suppose we mod everyone to have blue eyes, and suddenly there's a deadly virus/bactery/... that only infects(and kills) only people with blue eyes: this disease will spread much much faster, and will kill much more creatures.
Actually some GM plants literally produce insecticides and all of them produce antibiotics (which are used to tell if the plant has taken the GM or not. Without which they have no clue), but yes what you say is also a major concern as well as additional costs to farmers who have to buy new seeds from the GM companies each year because one of the first things GM companies do is stop their plants from making seeds...
Allergies have gone way up since they were introduced.
Is there proof of consequence? I found on wikipedia
to date no adverse health effects caused by products approved for sale have been documented, although two products failed initial safety testing and were discontinued, due to allergic reactions.
I can't find the article, but a while back (like before 1989) there was a big news story about GM corn flakes and people dying of allergic reactions to it. It was pulled from the shelves and the GM was banned. It was a while back though...
Worldwide, reports of allergies to all kinds of foods, particularly nuts, fish and shellfish, seem to be increasing, but it is not known if this reflects a genuine change in the risk of allergy, or an increased awareness of food allergies by the public
Also a fun fact: Genetic modification can also be used to remove allergens from foods, which may, for example, allow the production of soy products that would pose a smaller risk of food allergies than standard soybeansAs to the GM food thing. There are a lot of health problems arising which can't be tied directly to GM foods, but there are direct links to GM foods and allergy increases.
I note how the articly speaks with a of a lot of mights/coulds/... the difference between "there are direct links", and "there could be a direct link" ...
Your right even though GM foods that have not been released have been proven to create allergies and therefore the principle is sound and statisticaly matched data showing up within 1 year of introducing a new GM food doesn't prove anything. It should however open up some questions and start people doing studies and research. Which it really hasn't. Anyone who mentions these things is marginalized as being a 'tin-foil hat wearing wacko' and written off.
Funny thing, BTW: "[non commercialized] GM potatoes caused the immune system of rats to respond more slowly" ... so these potatoes help against allergiesNot to mention since they use antibiotic enzymes to test for successful genetic modification that alone says anyone that is allergic to antibiotics is going to have allergies to GM foods.
(bolding mine) cars get tested by ramming them into walls. yet people (usually) buy uncrashed cars.
Believe you me, I hope you don't eat the food(-residue) they used to test. antibiotics would be the least of your least concern.
You don't understand then. The antibiotics are literally produced by the plant as a regular process. They put that in there tied to their modifications in order to show that the modifications take place. If it is not in the plant then the modification didn't take place and they throw the plant out. If it is in the plant then that proves their modification took place and they then grow the plant (or sell the seeds or whatever). So the resulting plants contine to generate the antibiotics...
You do realise that something that would unleash 1 megawatthour (which is more or less what the E-kat produces?) in the span of a few seconds means you unleash the kind of energy that about 1000kg (or 2000 pounds) of dynamite does when ignited?
1 kilowatthour is 3.6 megajoules. That means 1 megawatthour is 3.6 gigajoules. A ton of TNT is 4.184 gigajoules.
This is just some simple data from Wikipedia:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNT_equivalent
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilowatt_hour
I don't know about you, but only one of these two things could level the entire apartment building I live in.
Yeah, I was thinkin' pretty much the same thing.
Which is why I said it should be in a substation an acre away from your house in a concrete bunker lined with lead. The real problem though is that it simply would not explode like that. Its composed of super heated water, glass and some electronic parts as well as nano-powdered metals. If it explodes a concrete wall 5" would stop it...
At best it'd be useful for people with a lot of space around their house to build a bunker. Not to mention that it'd be expensive to get that kind of rig going... much cheaper to just use regular power methinks.
Which is why I said it should be in a substation an acre away from your house in a concrete bunker lined with lead. The real problem though is that it simply would not explode like that. Its composed of super heated water, glass and some electronic parts as well as nano-powdered metals. If it explodes a concrete wall 5" would stop it...
Where are ya gonna get the land for all of that?
The second type don't have double helix and basically don't check themselves to see if they are replicating properly so you get genetic mutations literally all the time. The flu is one of these viruses. It changes so often that your immune system can't keep up and a new strain shows up every year...
For some unkown reason we use the second type of virus in our gentic manipulations...
Didn't you give the reason in the paragraph above? I.e. a virus without double helix mutates easily, or, in other words, it's genes are easier to manipulate.
Why work with a virus that counters all your efforts all the time when you have one that doesn't?
viruses use RNA to infiltrate the cell...
RNA virusses do. others don't ("Dependant of the type of virus, the 'mail' can work on different ways.")
For some unkown reason we use the second type of virus in our gentic manipulations...
Most of that is accurate, but you are leaving out one important thing. There are two kinds of viruses. The first which is why diseases caused by viruses are so easy to defeat are the kinds of viruses that have a double helix and therefore are less likely to mutate. Once you figure out how to defeat them they are as good as gone because they rarely change.
I fail to see the relevance.
GM to producing chemicals
The problem is not in how they work, its in what we do with them. Without sequencing each virus that we create, we don't know exactly what we are getting in each genetic modification
irrelevant for production.
- Find a factory that creates these weapons, or give a factory a plan to create these weapons
- Send them a mail to produce as much weapons as possible
- send them resources, and pick up their export products.
- you now have weapons to fend of your enemies
as long as the cells produce pure insuline (testable by samples), the cells can mutate in whatever they want. We don't inject the cells, you know.
I can't find the article, but a while back (like before 1989) there was a big news story about GM corn flakes and people dying of allergic reactions to it. It was pulled from the shelves and the GM was banned. It was a while back though...
It was pulled from the shelves? Evil FDA!
It should however open up some questions and start people doing studies and research. Which it really hasn't.
yeah, I can point you to Ghent Univercity, where they really DO studies and research on GMOs.
viruses use RNA to infiltrate the cell...
RNA virusses do. others don't ("Dependant of the type of virus, the 'mail' can work on different ways.")For some unkown reason we use the second type of virus in our gentic manipulations...Most of that is accurate, but you are leaving out one important thing. There are two kinds of viruses. The first which is why diseases caused by viruses are so easy to defeat are the kinds of viruses that have a double helix and therefore are less likely to mutate. Once you figure out how to defeat them they are as good as gone because they rarely change.
I fail to see the relevance.
The relevance is that those viruses mutate constantly so when they put in what they want and turn off the 'replication' gene in the virus. It can turn itself back on through mutation. It can include DNA that was not intended or it can mutate into a deadly plague (exagerating a bit, but not much).
GM to producing chemicals
The problem is not in how they work, its in what we do with them. Without sequencing each virus that we create, we don't know exactly what we are getting in each genetic modification
irrelevant for production.
- Find a factory that creates these weapons, or give a factory a plan to create these weapons
- Send them a mail to produce as much weapons as possible
- send them resources, and pick up their export products.
- you now have weapons to fend of your enemies
as long as the cells produce pure insulin (testable by samples), the cells can mutate in whatever they want. We don't inject the cells, you know.
Except that's not how it works. They check for the one thing they want out of it (in this case the insulin) and generally don't test beyond that (as it would cost way too much to test for every possible combination of harmful chemical in the resulting mix). So again your looking in the wrong direction. I could care less about the bacteria that is used to produce insulin. I'm wanting to know what's in the food I'm eating and how it can affect me and what kind of testing they are doing...
I can't find the article, but a while back (like before 1989) there was a big news story about GM corn flakes and people dying of allergic reactions to it. It was pulled from the shelves and the GM was banned. It was a while back though...
It was pulled from the shelves? Evil FDA!It should however open up some questions and start people doing studies and research. Which it really hasn't.
yeah, I can point you to Ghent Univercity, where they really DO studies and research on GMOs.
Oh you mean this Ghent University?
You do realise that something that would unleash 1 megawatthour (which is more or less what the E-kat produces?) in the span of a few seconds means you unleash the kind of energy that about 1000kg (or 2000 pounds) of dynamite does when ignited?
1 kilowatthour is 3.6 megajoules. That means 1 megawatthour is 3.6 gigajoules. A ton of TNT is 4.184 gigajoules.
This is just some simple data from Wikipedia:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNT_equivalent
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilowatt_hour
I don't know about you, but only one of these two things could level the entire apartment building I live in.
Yeah, I was thinkin' pretty much the same thing.
Which is why I said it should be in a substation an acre away from your house in a concrete bunker lined with lead. The real problem though is that it simply would not explode like that. Its composed of super heated water, glass and some electronic parts as well as nano-powdered metals. If it explodes a concrete wall 5" would stop it...
You really have no conception of the level of force that kind of explosion would generate. It's both saddening and utterly hilarious if you think that is going to make you safe. We are talking about energy release, it doesn't matter at that point if there's a firey inferno with it, the sheer pressure wave would flatten everything in a very hefty radius, concrete and lead or not.
(as it would cost way too much to test for every possible combination of harmful chemical in the resulting mix).
source?
Because i think youre wrong. How do you think they analyse things like sigaret some? run milions of tests? They use mass spectrometry of stuff. so it results in graphs like this
I'm wanting to know what's in the food I'm eating and how it can affect me and what kind of testing they are doing...
you'll never know that. not for GMO's, not for natural stuff. Not even for the food you create in your back yard (except you know how much you tested those)
Oh you mean this Ghent University?
yes, that univericity.
(He publicly condoned destruction of some of U. Ghents GM research (you recall? the research you asked for?) by activists and did not want to retract his statement when asked by the deen.
You can't say "more research!" and "research is evil!" at the same time.)
You do realise that something that would unleash 1 megawatthour (which is more or less what the E-kat produces?) in the span of a few seconds means you unleash the kind of energy that about 1000kg (or 2000 pounds) of dynamite does when ignited?
1 kilowatthour is 3.6 megajoules. That means 1 megawatthour is 3.6 gigajoules. A ton of TNT is 4.184 gigajoules.
HOLLY **** that's about 1/20th of the first nuke! In open air(!), that baby created about 400 m crater.
edit: 1kt explosion. note how the initial blast reaches the street(?) on the right
(as it would cost way too much to test for every possible combination of harmful chemical in the resulting mix).
source?
Because i think youre wrong. How do you think they analyse things like sigaret some? run milions of tests? They use mass spectrometry of stuff. so it results in graphs like this
Huh, how come this picture is in an understandable language? Or is it Wiki speaking in tongues?
HOLLY **** that's about 1/20th of the first nuke! In open air(!), that baby created about 400 m crater.
Nice place to visit. About 60 miles (driving) from where I currently live. Just don't visit too often and wear your lead underwear.
HOLLY **** that's about 1/20th of the first nuke! In open air(!), that baby created about 400 m crater.
Nice place to visit. About 60 miles (driving) from where I currently live. Just don't visit too often and wear your lead underwear.
And where do you live? I live over in Roswell, I need somewhere to stay for the july 4th weekend rofl
But I'm (for the next two to three weeks) still in Socorro. Sorta. I'm actually doing a bunch of travelling right up until we leave the state for good.
You live in Roswell? I'm sorry to hear that.
But I'm (for the next two to three weeks) still in Socorro. Sorta. I'm actually doing a bunch of travelling right up until we leave the state for good.
lol,you'll get uscked back in..We don't have the nickname of the land of entrapment for nothing rofl